“Local Church ‘Cult’ Label has stuck”—says LSM Star turned Academic

[OBW]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Hm, another interesting point. Solomon, you know, chased that experience hundreds of times ... and one of them resulted in a book of scripture.

And the whole of them carried him off to degradation. Solomon may have written a couple or so significant bits of scripture, but in the end he did not have a heart for God like his father, but rather for the roughly 1,000 wifes and concubines he had. Unlike the command not to marry any of the women of the world.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Solomon may have written a couple or so significant bits of scripture, but in the end he did not have a heart for God like his father, but rather for the roughly 1,000 wives and concubines he had.

At his peak, however, Solomon had an unworldly wisdom about him, which made him the magnet of civilization. And he wasn't the only king with a roving eye - his dad was also notorious in that respect.

Back to the idea of chasing the vapor trail of the "early glory" of the LC experience: at its core there seems to be something there, no? We believed in God, confessed Jesus Christ as Lord, and we had a nearly overwhelming sensory experience. I remember the LC hymn with the refrain: "His glory broke upon us when we saw him in the church" - here, supposedly were "all His riches", leading us to give up "our search". Later, when the experiences seem to dry up, we frantically tried to re-create them. Just shout louder!! More meetings!! More conferences!! Middle-aged training!!

I've now been out of the LC orbit for longer than I was in it, and I still pursue. But for me the contact high is in the word. Nothing wrong with the old experiences, but we can still pursue. I don't judge others' experiences, past or present, but today I suspect that mine was that of the rube who swallowed the pill, and the others shouted excitedly at him(her), "Do you feel it!!?? Do you feel it!!??" At some point I also began to yell and dance. But looking back there was nothing there.

I say this with some confidence because today I see something in the word, which the shouters and dancers and arm-wavers were ignorant of. And when I tried to point it out to them they weren't interested. So I became clear that they were chasing sensory experience. RK assures them that if they shout and jump they will leave their meetings with "more Christ" than when they arrived. To me that's a confidence game; I fell for it once, when I was naive, but no longer.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

At his peak, however, Solomon had an unworldly wisdom about him, which made him the magnet of civilization. And he wasn't the only king with a roving eye - his dad was also notorious in that respect.

Back to the idea of chasing the vapor trail of the "early glory" of the LC experience: at its core there seems to be something there, no? We believed in God, confessed Jesus Christ as Lord, and we had a nearly overwhelming sensory experience. I remember the LC hymn with the refrain: "His glory broke upon us when we saw him in the church" - here, supposedly were "all His riches", leading us to give up "our search". Later, when the experiences seem to dry up, we frantically tried to re-create them. Just shout louder!! More meetings!! More conferences!! Middle-aged training!!

I've now been out of the LC orbit for longer than I was in it, and I still pursue. But for me the contact high is in the word. Nothing wrong with the old experiences, but we can still pursue. I don't judge others' experiences, past or present, but today I suspect that mine was that of the rube who swallowed the pill, and the others shouted excitedly at him(her), "Do you feel it!!?? Do you feel it!!??" At some point I also began to yell and dance. But looking back there was nothing there.

I say this with some confidence because today I see something in the word, which the shouters and dancers and arm-wavers were ignorant of. And when I tried to point it out to them they weren't interested. So I became clear that they were chasing sensory experience. RK assures them that if they shout and jump they will leave their meetings with "more Christ" than when they arrived. To me that's a confidence game; I fell for it once, when I was naive, but no longer.

I don't have a lifetime in Pentecostal circles, but some of the ones I've seen fit your descriptions more than the LCs. Screaming slogans intelligibly seems more benign than shaking uncontrollibly while laying on the floor as if struck by the divine lightning.

People want sensory because it goes beyond mere information in the mind. They want feelings which can affect them, improve their life. God understands this too, and that's why they are more common in our youth. Trouble begins when faith does not properly grow within us.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't have a lifetime in Pentecostal circles, but some of the ones I've seen fit your descriptions more than the LCs. Screaming slogans intelligibly seems more benign than shaking uncontrollibly while laying on the floor as if struck by the divine lightning.

The pernicious aspect of the LC is that people aren't on all fours, barking like dogs. So they can say it is not mere Pentecostalism. When repeatedly shouting slogans is actually creating the same physiological/mental stimulus. So they can call it "spirit" and "glory" when it is fleshly excitement and soulish enthusiasm.

Originally Posted by Ohio

People want sensory because it goes beyond mere information in the mind. They want feelings which can affect them, improve their life. God understands this too, and that's why they are more common in our youth. Trouble begins when faith does not properly grow within us.

When the experience becomes the target, then we have missed the point. Paul wrote a rather admonishing letter to the Corinthians in this regard. Yet, WL approvingly called the Mainland Chinese branch of his sect "Shouters". He told us that there were millions of Shouters in the PRC, and we murmured with happy surprise.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

He told us that there were millions of Shouters in the PRC, and we murmured with happy surprise.

From Tomes:
“the so‐called ‘Shouters,’ [was] a designation given by the Chinese government to various groups in the early 1980s. Historically, the local churches in China have sometimes been wrongly identified by this term [i.e., ‘Shouters,’] in official government documents and press accounts, as have many other genuine Christian groups. Living Stream Ministry and the more than 4000 local churches it supports around the globe have no connection or linkage, formally or informally, to either ‘The Shouters’ or the groups that are currently the focus of the government crackdown, namely ‘Lightning from the East’ and the ‘All Mighty God Sect’."
-The “Statement by Living Stream Ministry Regarding Aberrant Religious Groups in China” appears with LSM-letterhead on the LSM-linked website: http://www.contendingforthefaith.org..._China_en.html

Written while Lee's followers were still shouting ...

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by awareness

From Tomes:
“the so‐called ‘Shouters,’ [was] a designation given by the Chinese government to various groups in the early 1980s. Historically, the local churches in China have sometimes been wrongly identified by this term [i.e., ‘Shouters,’] in official government documents and press accounts, as have many other genuine Christian groups. Living Stream Ministry and the more than 4000 local churches it supports around the globe have no connection or linkage, formally or informally, to either ‘The Shouters’ or the groups that are currently the focus of the government crackdown, namely ‘Lightning from the East’ and the ‘All Mighty God Sect’."
-The “Statement by Living Stream Ministry Regarding Aberrant Religious Groups in China” appears with LSM-letterhead on the LSM-linked website: http://www.contendingforthefaith.org..._China_en.html

Written while Lee's followers were still shouting ...

Originally Posted by Nigel Tomes

Second, it is disingenuous of LSM to assert that “Living Stream Ministry and the...local churches it supports ...have no connection or linkage, formally or informally, to...‘The Shouters’.” LSM might wish (for obvious reasons) to disassociate itself from the “Eastern Lightning” and the ‘All Mighty God Sect’. However, to claim that LSM and its Local Churches have “no connection or linkage” even “informally, to...‘The Shouters’,” is patently false.

Kudos to Nigel for calling LSM out on this blatant lie. I'm not sure who would believe this, even among LCers. Within the LC, I was always told that 'Shouters' was an undesirable name given LCers in China. I'm sure that for any LCers who are not aware of the LSM statement, and if they were questioned as to who the Shouters are, they would provide an answer indicating that it is another name for those in the LC in China.

It seems LSM think they get to provide the official narrative, after all, no one is going to challenge them. Maybe next they will tell everyone that the sky is green.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It seems LSM think they get to provide the official narrative, after all, no one is going to challenge them. Maybe next they will tell everyone that the sky is green.

Or that Jesus is both the Father and the Spirit ... the Trinity all rolled up in one.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I'm not sure who would believe this, even among LCers. Within the LC, I was always told that 'Shouters' was an undesirable name given LCers in China. I'm sure that for any LCers who are not aware of the LSM statement, and if they were questioned as to who the Shouters are, they would provide an answer indicating that it is another name for those in the LC in China

I was in the meeting where WL was citing LC membership around the globe. He got to the end of the list and very dramatically said, "In China, the Shouters, 10 to 15 million" or some other very large number. We all made gasping noises from the audience. If he had wanted to pass on the Shouter appellation, he could have. But he didn't - quite the opposite, in fact; it sounded to us like he embraced the name, and the group.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by OBW

And the whole of them carried him off to degradation. Solomon may have written a couple or so significant bits of scripture, but in the end he did not have a heart for God like his father, but rather for the roughly 1,000 wifes and concubines he had. Unlike the command not to marry any of the women of the world.

Gee, you're sounding like Witness Lee here. He wasn't a big Solomon fan.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Gee, you're sounding like Witness Lee here. He wasn't a big Solomon fan.

I'm not saying that I am not a fan of Solomon. Like much of the Bible, it is recorded by frail humans. It records God in the midst of the chaos of natural life.

My real comment was that suggesting that the Song of Solomon was simply about one of his wives might be a little simplistic. Especially when it was the preponderance of wives that turned his head from following the true God, unlike his father who, though continually failing, turned his heart back to God.

To be honest, I think that the "ooo" and "aaaah" of the emotional and personal portions of the Song of Solomon are too easily replacements for sober following of God/Christ. We too often think of the value of having a heart for God in terms of feelings rather than in the practical evidence of living. Not saying there is nothing worthwhile in the SofS, but rather that we focus on it at an impractical, and therefore sort of useless level. Turning away from everything to chase through the woods after a lover as the end-all metaphor of the Christian experience results in a spirituality that has no evidence for someone like James to see as proof you were actually chasing after God/Christ. We have turned from the pursuit of God through the pursuit of living as he directs into an ethereal exercise in faux spirituality that does nothing except be spiritual.

Now there is a time and a place for pursuing a lover. It has a season, or seasons. It is not the "instead of works" or however people want to think about it. That is, to me, the fatal flaw in most inner life ministries. (And Nee was clearly inner life before and while he was grand poohbah of the Little Flock.) They rightly point us to more than just works, then convince us that there are no works, only inner life. And it will magically do everything for you.