A little background

[Dave]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

Your guesses were spot on. I have no problem saying I attend San Gabriel Community Church. Although I love my husband and know he loves me too, at this point our relationship has become very strained and we cannot even begin to speak about God or the Bible before our discussions become very heated.

I am praying to the Lord that he give me wisdom and guidance in dealing with and respond to my husband. I realize I cannot change him or what he believes, that is not my job nor is it something I can accomplish. Only the Lord can speak to his heart and work in it, in His time and in His way.

I must admit however, that this is much easier said than done. I consider myself a relatively new believer, and I am just growing in my faith, knowledge and love for my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who accomplished it all on my behalf and who died in my place.

Your testimony reminded me that the LC causes a great deal of estrangement from family members. My wife was involved at the time I was so that was not a problem but the LC caused a great deal of estrangement from other family members such as my parents, siblings etc. All we can offer you is some advice as some have already done and our prayers. Either he has to burn out which is possible or he has to develop some toleration for what you believe which is probably unlikely.

Here is one crazy idea I have (with trepidation) if this situation continues:
Ask him to meet with you and the elders at his church but you would like to bring along a sister from your church (a strong sister from your church--I only say this because you have indicated you are new to the faith) --- explain to the elders that you love your husband and you love the Lord but you can't even discuss the Bible or the Lord with your husband without getting into problems and you are looking for answers to resolve this issue in your marriage. I would suspect that the elders will try and lay a heavy trip on you regarding obeying your husband but if you stand your ground that you are not comfortable with attending the LC for reasons you have expressed on this forum. The reverse is also possible---he meeting with you and your pastor? but I doubt that he would be willing to meet with him.
Another idea:
Seek Christian counseling

We are all brainstorming here so hopefully you can garner some help from the ideas expressed in your situation.

Take care...

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Dave

Here is one crazy idea I have (with trepidation) if this situation continues:
Ask him to meet with you and the elders at his church but you would like to bring along a sister from your church (a strong sister from your church--I only say this because you have indicated you are new to the faith) ---
..

Better yet a strong in the Lord married couple from her church because the LC (while they will never admit it) don't regard women in the same way CHRIST and Father God does.

Blessings all,
Carol

[Dave]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Better yet a strong in the Lord married couple from her church because the LC (while they will never admit it) don't regard women in the same way CHRIST and Father God does.

Blessings all,
Carol

Good point!

[boughtbyJesus]

Originally Posted by Dave

Your testimony reminded me that the LC causes a great deal of estrangement from family members. My wife was involved at the time I was so that was not a problem but the LC caused a great deal of estrangement from other family members such as my parents, siblings etc. All we can offer you is some advice as some have already done and our prayers. Either he has to burn out which is possible or he has to develop some toleration for what you believe which is probably unlikely.

Here is one crazy idea I have (with trepidation) if this situation continues:
Ask him to meet with you and the elders at his church but you would like to bring along a sister from your church (a strong sister from your church--I only say this because you have indicated you are new to the faith) --- explain to the elders that you love your husband and you love the Lord but you can't even discuss the Bible or the Lord with your husband without getting into problems and you are looking for answers to resolve this issue in your marriage. I would suspect that the elders will try and lay a heavy trip on you regarding obeying your husband but if you stand your ground that you are not comfortable with attending the LC for reasons you have expressed on this forum. The reverse is also possible---he meeting with you and your pastor? but I doubt that he would be willing to meet with him.
Another idea:
Seek Christian counseling

We are all brainstorming here so hopefully you can garner some help from the ideas expressed in your situation.

Take care...

Honestly, wouldn't even feel comfortable meeting with the Elders, even with a strong sister from my church body. Although I know some of them personally, and had the opportunity to fellowship and get to know other believers there, who seemed to have a genuine love for the Lord and a seeking heart. One of the elders, who is close to my husband and serves as a kind of mentor to him, didn't seem to care for me much, nor I for him. He was always abrasive and offensive, not to me directly, but would proclaim at the meetings I attended that "we" needed to "get serious with the Lord" and "open our mouths," which I never did because it just felt so contrived and fake. I know he meant those comments for me, because I was the only one who didn't "prophesy" at these meetings. They always tried to pressure me, which I always resisted, because it just didn't feel right!

I remember when I first started attending, I asked, "who is this Witness Lee and I should care what he said or how he interpreted the bible and why should I care about his footnotes?" Another time I asked why wasn't the actual Bible used instead of the morning revival book at the Lord's Day meetings? The fact that they made me feel that I couldn't/shouldn't ask questions immediately raised red ringing flags for me. As I said in my 1st post, something just wasn't right and I had an uneasy feeling.

Although I believe they believe they are genuine seeking believers, my opinion is that they preach a different gospel, of which there is only one, and I believe we have been justified by faith, as Paul speaks about in Galatians. They seem to believe they are justified by works, and they seem to look inside of themselves instead of looking outside themselves for the answers.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

Although I believe they believe they are genuine seeking believers, my opinion is that they preach a different gospel, of which there is only one, and I believe we have been justified by faith, as Paul speaks about in Galatians. They seem to believe they are justified by works, and they seem to look inside of themselves instead of looking outside themselves for the answers.

Very well stated boughtbyJesus. Some people around here get a little bent out of shape when "a different gospel" is mentioned regarding the teachings of Witness Lee, but the simple fact is that Witness Lee and his followers actually preach two gospels - one is at lease close to the genuine, biblical Gospel as preached by the Lord Jesus and the original disciples, but they also have "the gospel of 'God's economy' ", which is really and truly "another gospel" as Paul mentioned in Galatians. As the years have gone by, there is little doubt that these dear Christians have actually convinced themselves that Witness Lee's gospel is more important than the actual Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. May the Lord have mercy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Very well stated boughtbyJesus. Some people around here get a little bent out of shape when "a different gospel" is mentioned regarding the teachings of Witness Lee, but the simple fact is that Witness Lee and his followers actually preach two gospels - one is at lease close to the genuine, biblical Gospel as preached by the Lord Jesus and the original disciples, but they also have "the gospel of 'God's economy' ", which is really and truly "another gospel" as Paul mentioned in Galatians. As the years have gone by, there is little doubt that these dear Christians have actually convinced themselves that Witness Lee's gospel is more important than the actual Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. May the Lord have mercy.

If I accept that LC'ers teach "another" gospel, then I must also condemn all Pentecostals and Charismatics for the same thing, since after being saved, they are always stressing the need to speak in tongues, focus on the gifts, and get delivered thru the laying on of hands. Like boughtbyJesus has said, "that never felt right" for me, though I have prayed about it.

Paul used the term "another gospel" in direct opposition to the way of circumcision as promoted by the Judaizers. This negated the need of the cross of Christ, as Galatians rightly says, as if some minor surgical procedure could guarantee our salvation. How about we not use this loaded phrase outside of its intended context?

[boughtbyJesus]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul used the term "another gospel" in direct opposition to the way of circumcision as promoted by the Judaizers. This negated the need of the cross of Christ, as Galatians rightly says, as if some minor surgical procedure could guarantee our salvation. How about we not use this loaded phrase outside of its intended context?

I believe that if you "add" or "take away" ANYTHING from the Gospel Paul preached, the Gospel of Christ Jesus, by ANYONE or ANY Church, then it is no longer the Gospel of Christ Jesus.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

I believe that if you "add" or "take away" ANYTHING from the Gospel Paul preached, the Gospel of Christ Jesus, by ANYONE or ANY Church, then it is no longer the Gospel of Christ Jesus.

I think that is a little simplistic. Then we have to define 'what it is to "add" or "take away" ANYTHING from the Gospel Paul preached.' I have never found any church that is not "guilty." The LC's I knew never added one thing to the gospel Paul preached. Oh sure, things got added and heaped upon the brothers and sisters, but they never affected the WAY of salvation.

[boughtbyJesus]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think that is a little simplistic. Then we have to define 'what it is to "add" or "take away" ANYTHING from the Gospel Paul preached.' I have never found any church that is not "guilty." The LC's I knew never added one thing to the gospel Paul preached. Oh sure, things got added and heaped upon the brothers and sisters, but they never affected the WAY of salvation.

I think Galatians 1:6-10 is pretty clear!

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one your received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ." ESV Ed.

Paul emphasized twice the preaching of a gospel contrary to the one he received from Christ.

I do not believe that it is insignificant to add or take away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe this is how the enemy is actively operating in many churches - by changing/distorting/twisting the Bible. I don't think it matters the opinions, interpretations of a pastor, preacher, whomever, or their nuances, the only thing that matters is the author's intended meaning and its application to us today.

[UntoHim]

Ok, strike that part about about "a little bent out of shape"

Also, our dear friend Ohio, God bless him, has an occasional habit of jumping the gun and reacting to just part of post without reading and CONSIDERING the entire post, and it looks like this got the best of him in reading my post, which was really only a direct reaction to your post.

But I see now that boughtbyJesus already smacked him down

You go sista, you go!

[boughtbyJesus]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Very well stated boughtbyJesus. Some people around here get a little bent out of shape when "a different gospel" is mentioned regarding the teachings of Witness Lee, but the simple fact is that Witness Lee and his followers actually preach two gospels - one is at lease close to the genuine, biblical Gospel as preached by the Lord Jesus and the original disciples, but they also have "the gospel of 'God's economy' ", which is really and truly "another gospel" as Paul mentioned in Galatians. As the years have gone by, there is little doubt that these dear Christians have actually convinced themselves that Witness Lee's gospel is more important than the actual Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. May the Lord have mercy.

Yes, I agree. They seem to believe WL was on par, if not superior than Paul. From what I remember, they told me WL was the minister of this age, and was chosen by God to reveal certain truths...blah....blah....blah, which I found blasphemous.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

The fact that they made me feel that I couldn't/shouldn't ask questions immediately raised red ringing flags for me. As I said in my 1st post, something just wasn't right and I had an uneasy feeling.

Although I believe they believe they are genuine seeking believers, my opinion is that they preach a different gospel, of which there is only one, and I believe we have been justified by faith, as Paul speaks about in Galatians. They seem to believe they are justified by works, and they seem to look inside of themselves instead of looking outside themselves for the answers.

True, the culture in the Local Churches does not encourage asking questions as I have learned from experience. Best case scenario is asking a question answered with silence.

I do think there needs to be a separation from what LSM publishes versus brothers and sisters meeting in the Local churches. I do believe based on LSM publications and by LSM actions, there is a different gospel preached, but that is not the case with all brothers and sisters meeting with the local churches.

In my estimation there is not a fear of God, but a fear of Man.

[boughtbyJesus]

Originally Posted by Terry

True, the culture in the Local Churches does not encourage asking questions as I have learned from experience. Best case scenario is asking a question answered with silence.

I do think there needs to be a separation from what LSM publishes versus brothers and sisters meeting in the Local churches. I do believe based on LSM publications and by LSM actions, there is a different gospel preached, but that is not the case with all brothers and sisters meeting with the local churches.

In my estimation there is not a fear of God, but a fear of Man.

How do you separate what LSM publishes from what the brothers and sisters practice, believe and teach at the local churches? Everything that comes out of their mouths is content put forth by LSM.

From my experience with my dear husband, they ALL sounds alike, almost robotic like. They regurgitate what has been spoon feed to them. ALL of the written content comes from something WL said at some point during his life.
I've listened to the messages and have read some of their publications and at the end, I found myself scratching my head, asking what in the world had I just read?!?!? I work with physicians and lawyers, whom have a language all their own, and whose writings can be a bit dense and not too easy to understand, but this mumbo-jumbo paled in comparison!!! I once told my husband it was a sort of tongue-twisting brain teaser!! I must say, he didn't like that to much!

[Dave]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

How do you separate what LSM publishes from what the brothers and sisters practice, believe and teach at the local churches? Everything that comes out of their mouths is content put forth by LSM.

From my experience with my dear husband, they ALL sounds alike, almost robotic like. They regurgitate what has been spoon feed to them. ALL of the written content comes from something WL said at some point during his life.
I've listened to the messages and have read some of their publications and at the end, I found myself scratching my head, asking what in the world had I just read?!?!? I work with physicians and lawyers, whom have a language all their own, and whose writings can be a bit dense and not too easy to understand, but this mumbo-jumbo paled in comparison!!! I once told my husband it was a sort of tongue-twisting brain teaser!! I must say, he didn't like that to much!

One of the problems with some on this forum is the unwillingness to admit that the Local Church is a Christian cult. The LCs dogmatism reaches beyond Evangelical Christianity and their insistence on using their own interpretations of the Bible (such as the JWs) as well as their own prophet (e.g. Children of God) is problematic. They like to think of themselves as a continuation of the revelations of the Plymouth Brethren among others but they have gone far beyond anything the Brethren and others have taught in teaching and practices.

Their behaviors and practices are cultish but just like the Mormons they seem so "Christian" and upstanding when meeting them but your experiences with the LC sounds exactly like they would be behind their facade. (you might look at "Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change although it is more general) In any case, nothing I have said can be shared with your husband so you are in a bind. Take care.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Dave

They like to think of themselves as a continuation of the revelations of the Plymouth Brethren among others but they have gone far beyond anything the Brethren and others have taught in teaching and practices.

Do they even know the Plymouth Brethren are also known as the Exclusive Brethren? As such are sectarian in their inability to receive fellow members of the Body that doesn't meet with their sect. Same has been the status quo of the LC.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

One of the problems with some on this forum is the unwillingness to admit that the Local Church is a Christian cult.

I guess that might be me.

Now Dave have you also been willing to admit that the Unitarian Universalist Church is also a cult?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I guess that might be me.

Now Dave have you also been willing to admit that the Unitarian Universalist Church is also a cult?

What does the UU have anything to do with this conversation? Take it over to ALT VW.

The control factors which the LC administers whether it is from Anaheim or locally is clearly cultish based on the description the author of this thread described. cult=a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object, a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister, a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing. I would say the LC fits all three of those definitions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

They like to think of themselves as a continuation of the revelations of the Plymouth Brethren among others but they have gone far beyond anything the Brethren and others have taught in teaching and practices.

Have you ever studied the lineage of Exclusive Brethren (aka Peebs) which claim direct to be direct descendents of J. N. Darby?

Methinks you ought to look into them before you make such a statement. They have a hundred year head start to the LCM in aberrant teachings and practices.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you ever studied the lineage of Exclusive Brethren (aka Peebs) which claim direct to be direct descendents of J. N. Darby?

Methinks you ought to look into them before you make such a statement. They have a hundred year head start to the LCM in aberrant teachings and practices.

I realize there are many types of Brethren which I have studied to include the Open, Plymouth, Exclusive, Church of the Brethren, Bogomil Brethren, Moravian Brethren, Schwarzenau Brethren, Brethren of the Free Spirit etc I stand by my statement.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

I once told my husband it was a sort of tongue-twisting brain teaser!! I must say, he didn't like that to much!

I like to call it sleight of mind, similar to sleight of hand, but tricking the minds-eye instead.

I understand the impossibility of taking potshots at your husband ... sometimes the absurdity in the local church is too extreme to take, by any sober minded individual.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

I've listened to the messages and have read some of their publications and at the end, I found myself scratching my head, asking what in the world had I just read?!?!? I work with physicians and lawyers, whom have a language all their own, and whose writings can be a bit dense and not too easy to understand, but this mumbo-jumbo paled in comparison!!! I once told my husband it was a sort of tongue-twisting brain teaser!! I must say, he didn't like that to much!

They use a lot of words to say very little. It's as if the wordsmiths at LSM have a complex they need to make a distinction between the ministry they publish and other Christian ministries.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

How do you separate what LSM publishes from what the brothers and sisters practice, believe and teach at the local churches? Everything that comes out of their mouths is content put forth by LSM.

It takes time to separate. Either through personal relationships or by social media such as Facebook.
Ones who are quiet in meetings, you have to wonder. Everything is not what it seems.
Prior to moving to Washington state in 1993, I lived in Southern California. I heard the other side of the story of the late 80's turmoil so I didn't sell out for what Witness Lee was selling in Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. Yet when I was meeting with NW localities, I kept my opinion of the turmoil between my two ears.
Then there is social media. From what I have seen from Facebook, "Everything that comes out of their mouths is content put forth by LSM" can very well be categorized as lip service. I know others in the LC that appreciate contemporary Christian music as I do.

[Dave]

I was in the LC in Santa Cruz and then Detroit when your husband experienced the LC at Elden Hall. I remember attending conferences in 1970 at Elden Hall and I have to say it was a remarkable time for the LC but it was in the midst of a Jesus revolution throughout the country. Young people were getting into Jesus movements everywhere. Also, being in the LC in Santa Cruz was a different experience because we were not directly controlled by Elden Hall which gave us a lot of freedom. In the early 1970s the LC was booming and WL provided projections of increase in the US. He estimated a total increase of something like 100,000 to 150,000 people over the next decade with yearly projections of the number of increased churches and people along the way.

After Witness Lee personally asked me to move to Detroit during the first major migration I found a completely different experience in Detroit (while I was in Santa Cruz I had contacted several of my relatives in Detroit and they began a LC there with some others). First, WL sent two of his well trained disciples to Detroit to be elders which was stifling, and, second, they brought the control of the LC movement with them. In the second major migration most of us in Detroit moved to Ft. Lauderdale which was a disaster with different members arguing over who should be an elder and seeking WL's blessing. I left in 1978 after I moved to Miami in 1977. The LC in Miami wasn't much better than Lauderdale. I never looked back, felt free of essentially a controlling system and never wanted to be in a similar situation again.

I have maintained some friendships over the years with various brothers from those days who also left and the situation in the LC has steadily deteriorated. Your experience with the elders is just symptomatic of the problems within the LC. Obviously your husband after 4 years has to be pretty tight with some of the other LC members which makes it even more difficult for him and you for that matter. You probably will have to reach a waterloo at some point depending on the demands of the LC on his time. I guess children are not an issue since you haven't mentioned them. All any one can do in your situation is pray. Take care.