Became or Not Became - Interpreting 1Cor 15:45

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In those days, and those afterwards, what caught my attention, or should I say changed my heart and my life, was not the theological ramifications of 2nd of the Trinity becoming the 3rd of the Trinity, but how I was now alive. I was alive with Christ! And I got a verse to prove it.

But that's part of the whole problem I've tried (not too well I'm afraid) to address - 1 Corinthians 15:45 proves no such thing. No worries though, there are probably HUNDREDS of verses that prove that we have been made alive with Christ, and why we were not changed by those is somewhat of a mystery to me. In fact, if you were at the Ephesians training I'm sure we all heard of the verse "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (Eph 2:5) I'm afraid that many of us (including me) were more impressed with who was telling us about how we were made alive in Christ then any actual biblical passages telling us it is so!

Look, before we go further in this thread I think it might be beneficial to have some kind of understanding that theology and experience are not mortal enemies, and in fact there is a wonderful, glorious symbiotic relationship between the two. It's kind of like "faith without works is dead" - so too theology without experience is dead. But the analogy works both ways (just like the biblical verse) - "Experience" that is based in erroneous teaching (aka theology) can lead to serious errors in our personal and corporate practice, as well as leaving us vulnerable to spiritual and psychological abuse. The Local Church of Witness Lee is the virtual poster boy of this dynamic.

Ok, I really would like to see this thread continue on as a "theological", "biblical" discussion. Far be it from me to take away anybody's positive experience, especially if it brought them closer to God. I kind of feel like throwing up my hands and say what Paul told the Philippians: What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.(Philippians 1:18) I rejoice at all the positive experiences we had in the Local Church. I had MANY positive experiences, and there was some good teaching too. What I would not like to see more of IN THIS PARTICULAR THREAD is the use of "experience" as an argument against how this particular verse is interpreted.

I'm not saying that we all have to come to the same interpretation, only that we approach this matter in a more objective manner.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What I would not like to see more of IN THIS PARTICULAR THREAD is the use of "experience" as an argument against how this particular verse is interpreted.

I'm not saying that we all have to come to the same interpretation, only that we approach this matter in a more objective manner.

To me, it is as clear as the noon day sun in Tucson, Arizona that, objectively and theologically, based on I Corinthians 15.45, the following are absolutely true:

1. The first man Adam (husband of Eve) became a living soul.
2. The last Adam (the man Christ Jesus) became a life-giving Spirit.

The previous statements are true whether or not you experience them or not, but it is a whole lot better to experience them.

By inference from the context, we can also conclude the following:

1. As descendents of Adam, we all are living souls.
2. As believers in God, we all can be made alive by Christ Jesus, the life-giving spirit.

The one question not settled by this verse alone is whether Christ Jesus the life giving Spirit can make us alive in this age, or only at the future resurrection of the dead.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What I would not like to see more of IN THIS PARTICULAR THREAD is the use of "experience" as an argument against how this particular verse is interpreted.

I'm not saying that we all have to come to the same interpretation, only that we approach this matter in a more objective manner.

Experience is a funny thing.

Every genuine Christian regularly discusses his/her experiences of the Lord. I have been hearing about others' experiences for almost 40 years. What kind of life would we be living if we had no experiences of the Lord?

The New Testament is filled with normal folks "experiencing" God, yet the New Testament never once uses the word "experience."

How weird is that?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Experience is a funny thing.

Well it is "life giving." Giving means receiving is also going on. And as you testify that's what happened when the verse popped out to you ; there was a giving and receiving happening, to your joy.

But Untohim makes a good point. In context it sounds like Paul is speaking about what will happen when the trumpet sounds. Now that will be real life giving ... to and for us us all, even those coming up out of the graves. That's a life giving spirit.

Is that what Paul meant?

[UntoHim]

Yes, experience is a funny thing, but it is not the topic of this thread.

Ok Ohio and others.

You win! I give up! I confess that you have worn me down. I only have so much time to combat your "experience" blitzkrieg. Apparently some of you are so hell-bent on side tracking any thread that would have even the slightest focus on "theology" that you will continue on no matter what I post.

There is only one caveat....OBW is the one who started this thread. If he acquiesces, then let's just change the whole direction of the thread to "experiencing the last Adam who became the life-giving Spirit". Wow, I just thought of that out of the blue! I hope that one of the brothers over at the LSM doesn't see this because that may be the title of the next message at one of the Seven Feasts.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Yes, experience is a funny thing, but it is not the topic of this thread.

Ok Ohio and others.

You win! I give up! I confess that you have worn me down. I only have so much time to combat your "experience" blitzkrieg. Apparently some of you are so hell-bent on side tracking any thread that would have even the slightest focus on "theology" that you will continue on no matter what I post.

Sorry bro UntoHim,

I guess I had no idea what I was doing.

When it comes to a theological discussion of this verse, I am not qualified to post.

[awareness]

Great post #43 ICA.

Maybe you have redeemed us to UntoHim, with your EO take on 15:45.

After all, we don't want our moderator to be flabbergasted ...

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When it comes to a theological discussion of this verse, I am not qualified to post.

Sure you are, we all discuss theology all the time on this forum.

Ok, how about a homework assignment?

Ravi Zacharias is one of the preeminent theologian/philosophers of our day. (and no I'm not saying he's the one theologian with the one theology for the age...only that he explains the trinity the clearest I've ever heard) Here is a short video of some question/answer session he had a some university. The good stuff really starts at about the 3:00 minute mark.

Due to some of the "advanced" vocabulary, it is somewhat hard to follow Zacharis. Here's a real zinger from this video: "The only way to explain unity and diversity in the effect is if you've got unity and diversity in the first cause, and only in the Trinity is there unity and diversity in the community of the Trinity".

If you're like me you will have to listen to this a few times before you get what he's saying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9gwoZNudCI

[InChristAlone]

I know I am the least qualified for this topic. I don’t have your knowledge and intelligence, brothers, especially those of Aron, Igzy, Ohio, OBW, Terry, and UntoHim. And surely, I don’t have brother Awareness's sharp wit. But let me pop in again. It’s not that I believe I can clarify something, I'd rather hope to support some ideas of other posters.

Yesterday in a book shop, I found this bible called “Orthodox Study Bible.”

http://www.amazon.com/The-Orthodox-S.../dp/0718003594

It didn’t look like a study bible to me because the footnotes (with the Church Fathers’ quotes) are too sparse and brief compared to the Lord’s Recovery Bible with a vast area of WL’s comments. Anyway, I just checked the footnotes of 1 Corinthians 15:45. Luckily, it had a comment but again – it was way too brief. If I am not mistaken, it says only “Our current body is Adam’s. But our resurrection body will be that of Christ’s”.

I’ve checked some other Eastern Orthodox resources in my native language again. They have lots of information on 1 Corinthians, but unfortunately, I could not find English translations. So I tried to translate the comments on 15:45 with Google Translate. But probably, some things might be lost in translation. Anyway, I believe the EO church point of view is similar to brother UntoHim’s words in his posts #33 and #36.

Just to clarify once again: the Church Fathers of East (who knew Greek and read NT in the original, i.e. in the Greek language) never understood “a life-giving spirit” as the Holy Spirit. They understood the Apostle Paul’s words about “a living soul” and “a life-giving spirit”(sometimes also translated “quickening spirit”, i.e. not only living, but making alive) as a comparison or distinction between our current natural or animal-souled body and our future spiritual body.

As for the difference and similarity among “a life-giving spirit”, the Son and the Holy Spirit, maybe we can look at this way: (Though I'm not sure that my conclusions are correct). The Son is not the Holy Spirit. They are distinct, but not separate. They are one in essence or nature. So probably, the nature or essence of “a life-giving spirit” might be similar to the nature or essence of the Son and the Holy Spirit. We are also distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. After the Lord’s second coming and the Resurrection of the Dead, the Lord will glorify our current Adam's bodies. But we will neither become the Son, nor the Holy Spirit. I assume that our “a living soul” mortal and corrupted bodies will be transformed and become fully spiritual, obtaining the nature or essence (at least to some degree) of the Son and the Holy Spirit (who share the same nature).

Originally Posted by Ohio

The one question not settled by this verse alone is whether Christ Jesus the life giving Spirit can make us alive in this age, or only at the future resurrection of the dead.

I believe we already have the source of this transformation in Our Lord Jesus Christ. When we turn to the Lord, when we live in communion with Him, and when we acquire the Holy Spirit – that is the beginning of our transformation. It's a small but important first step that starts in this age. In this age, I don’t mean physical but mainly mental and spiritual transformation. The Lords starts transforming us, through the grace of the Holy Spirit. The full transformation of our physical and animal-souled body (living soul), will be after the Lord’s second coming. Interestingly enough, it’s has something to do with Theosis that assumes that humans from the beginning are made to share in the Life or Nature of the all-Holy Trinity. It means once we have to become like God to such a degree that we participate in the divine nature. With the Incarnation, God has assumed and glorified our flesh and has consecrated and sanctified our humanity. He has also given us the Holy Spirit. So probably, God's target for us and our target is to become not just Christ-like, but the likeness of Christ.

More about Theosis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis...hodox_theology)

Here is the google translation I mentioned earlier. It’s almost the same what I posted before; maybe with more details.

1) 1 Corinthians 15:45

So it is written, "The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The apostle confirms the existence of a dual body, giving a link to the Holy Scriptures: "So it is written." The phrase “it is written" applies to the first half of the verse. "Became a living soul" ( Genesis 2:7). The first part says about the creation of man. Man "became" man or an animate being, after God breathed the breath of life into the man’s body, created from the dust of the earth. By these words, the Apostle defines the threshold (limits) that the first man could never cross. The boundary is indicated by the phrase "living soul” (ψυχή ζῶσα). Probably, this is the same definition, applied to man that equates him with animals that were also called "living souls" by Moses. ( Gen. 1 : 20, 24). But in fact, in relation to humans, this term encompasses incomparably larger than in its application to the animals. In the book of Genesis, the primordial man immensely towered over the animals in his mind, free will and heart. It’s also known that primeval man came into direct communion with God, and it refers to the activities of the supreme principle (element) of human beings – his spirit. If Moses didn’t directly attribute the spirit to man, then this shows that the fact that the man became "a living soul" was the purpose of the first creation and this purpose was achieved. Spirit as the guiding principle of human beings had to become active at a later age. According to the Apostle Paul, primordial man took only an initial stage of existence and activity .

"The last Adam" – that’s how the Apostle Paul calls Christ as the head and the Lord of humanity, after whom there will be no other heads and lords. Christ is "a life-giving spirit." This human condition is opposite to another human condition, "living soul." In this context, spirit is called "life-giving" not because it gives man spiritual life (as in John 4 : 14), but because it’s the spirit that animates the body where the spirit dwells. Soul also animates and movies the body. But spirit makes(does) much more – spirit makes the body fully alive, giving it new strength and new youth. Which moment in Christ’s life can be applied to this statement? Probably, Christ was becoming the "life-giving spirit" gradually - from His miraculous birth till His wonderful ascension when his body became completely spiritual. But in the full sense, Christ will manifest His life-giving spiritual activity at the time of resurrection when He glorifies the bodies of believers and make them fully spiritual like His own body (compare to Philippians 3: 21).

Philippians 3: 20-21 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to bring everything under His control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like His glorious body.

2) Another comment by St Theophan the Recluse:

1 Corinthians 15:45

So it is written, "The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Adam became a living soul, as “it is written” in Genesis 2:7. But there is no verse in the OT that says that the Lord Savior is a life-giving spirit. St. Paul says these words from himself, accompanied by the Scripture, however, without indicating where the Scripture ended and where his own words started. Then it’s all Gods words for us. The Apostle Paul combines the meaning of many Scripture verses about the coming Redeemer who was abundantly anointed by the Spirit.

What did the Apostle Paul want to say by these words? He points out that there are two periods of human existence. The first period is represented by Adam, “a living soul”. The second period – by Christ, the last Adam, “a life-giving spirit.” The first Adam lives in his physical body with soul and mortal and corrupted body. The last Adam lives in the new spiritual body which is of immortal and uncorrupted life-giving spirit. This new spiritual body will be given by Christ to the believers after His second coming. St Chrysostom says: "The Apostle said this so that you know the signs and evidence of the present and future lives: the present life is Adam’s and the future life is of Christ’s. Since he promises the best benefits in the future, it’s already now when he proves that the beginning and the source of the future life have already come. The source and the root have been revealed. If the root and source are obvious, we should not doubt about fruits. That’s why the Apostle Paul says that the last Adam is of life-giving spirit; and also: And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of His Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8 : 11) .

It’s hard to clearly define the real thoughts of the apostle. But it is obvious that for him, in the person of Christ the Savior, mankind starts a new life not only mentally and physically but also spiritually as that was revealed by Christ. When the Lord Jesus Christ came on earth, all the people were like the first Adam, “living souls”. Christ was the first one of the life-giving Spirit. Through His resurrection and ascension, Christ became the head of the new humanity who is born of Him. One of the unique features of this new humanity is spirituality – the new mankind may possess the Spirit of God. This Spirit is the guarantee of the future revival and the transfiguration of the natural body which will become spiritual. Spiritual bodies are being prepared in the field of the first natural Adam’s body; they will be revealed in their spiritual glory later. Our natural body of Adam’s living soul will come to its end. Through Christ and by the grace of the Holy Spirit our natural bodies will be transformed. We will be new mankind – spiritual humanity. But this will happen only after the Lord’s second coming. All in good time.

----

I also found homilies on 1 Corinthians by John Chrysostom, archbishop of Constantinople (c. 347 – 407). That’s what he wrote on 1 Corinthians 15:45:

So also it is written, Genesis 2:7 the first man Adam became a living soul: the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.

And yet the one indeed is written, but the other not written. How then said he, it is written? He modified the expression according to the issue of events: as he is wont continually to do: and indeed as it is the way of every prophet. For so Jerusalem, the prophet said, should be called a city of righteousness; Isaiah 1:26 yet it was not so called. What then? Did the prophet speak false? By no means. For he is speaking of the issue of events. And that Christ too should be called Immanuel; Isaiah 7:14 yet was he not so called. But the facts utter this voice; so also here, the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.

And these things he said that you may learn that the signs and pledges both of the present life and of that which is to come have already come upon us; to wit, of the present life, Adam, and of the life to come, Christ. For since he sets down the better things as matters of hope, he signifies that their beginning has already come to pass, and their root and their fountain been brought to light. But if the root and the fountain be evident to all, there is no need to doubt of the fruits. Wherefore he says, The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. And elsewhere too, He shall quicken your mortal bodies through His Spirit that dwells in you. Romans 7:11 It is the Spirit's work then to quicken.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2201.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/220141.htm