Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

https://sites.google.com/a/berean-tr...volume-12/love

I find the ministry of J B Stoney to be a real blessing.
I do not agree with your conclusion regarding Darby. If you examined more deeply you would reach the same conclusion. I do understand how you could draw that conclusion as I felt the same way initially but after years of reading hundreds of sources I have great respect and appreciation for Darby's ministry and manner of living. Certainly he was not without flaws but was greatly used in many different countries.

I'm not saying that Darby was not a gifted minister who led a strict life, but how could his actions in Plymouth and Bristol ever be justified?

WL also led a strict and moral life above reproach, as many would testify on his behalf, yet look at how he treated other brothers.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm not saying that Darby was not a gifted minister who led a strict life, but how could his actions in Plymouth and Bristol ever be justified?

WL also led a strict and moral life above reproach, as many would testify on his behalf, yet look at how he treated other brothers.

Plymouth was justified due to heresy, but Bristol was not and it was one of Darby's regrets. Due to the cover up of gross immorality one must question Lee's morality. Also are we not admonished not to associate with fornicators. There is none righteous no not one. We will all stand before the judgment seat.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Plymouth was justified due to heresy, but Bristol was not and it was one of Darby's regrets. Due to the cover up of gross immorality one must question Lee's morality. Also are we not admonished not to associate with fornicators. There is none righteous no not one. We will all stand before the judgment seat.

Concerning the "heresy" of Newton at Plymouth being justified, I have to disagree. Newton's writings, taken as they are, are well within the boundaries of orthodoxy. It was Darby's misreading, adding in excessive doses of his own dramatic hyperbole, which incited unnecessary alarm within the Plymouth saints.

Elden1971, are you aware of the following events?

During Darby's lengthy stay in Plymouth, due to the sheer weight of his own character, slowly many of the leading brothers in that church were turned against Newton in favor of Darby, Wigram and the exclusives. Nearly two decades later, by 1866, some of these learned men of God, primarily William H. Dorman, began to study in-depth the teachings of Darby concerning the humanity of Jesus our Savior under the "federal headship of Adam." Their exhaustive study of Darby's teachings convinced them that his teaching in substance was identical to Newton's in Plymouth back in the 1840's.

With W.H. Dorman, were other renowned Brethren formerly of Plymouth, namely Captain Percy Hall, Joseph Stancomb, and Thomas Newberry (The Englishman's Bible.) Since Darby and his supporters on Park Ave. in London refused to entertain the notion, nor even consider their research, these brothers could no longer bear the hypocrisy, and parted ways with Darby.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Concerning the "heresy" of Newton at Plymouth being justified, I have to disagree. Newton's writings, taken as they are, are well within the boundaries of orthodoxy. It was Darby's misreading, adding in excessive doses of his own dramatic hyperbole, which incited unnecessary alarm within the Plymouth saints.

Elden1971, are you aware of the following events?

During Darby's lengthy stay in Plymouth, due to the sheer weight of his own character, slowly many of the leading brothers in that church were turned against Newton in favor of Darby, Wigram and the exclusives. Nearly two decades later, by 1866, some of these learned men of God, primarily William H. Dorman, began to study in-depth the teachings of Darby concerning the humanity of Jesus our Savior under the "federal headship of Adam." Their exhaustive study of Darby's teachings convinced them that his teaching in substance was identical to Newton's in Plymouth back in the 1840's.

With W.H. Dorman, were other renowned Brethren formerly of Plymouth, namely Captain Percy Hall, Joseph Stancomb, and Thomas Newberry (The Englishman's Bible.) Since Darby and his supporters on Park Ave. in London refused to entertain the notion, nor even consider their research, these brothers could no longer bear the hypocrisy, and parted ways with Darby.

Thanks for mentioning that I will see what Wm. Kelley had to say about it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Thanks for mentioning that I will see what Wm. Kelley had to say about it.

Instead of reading what an exclusive said, why not read what an open said?

That's like asking Ron Kangas for the official history of Elden Hall.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Instead of reading what an exclusive said, why not read what an open said?

That's like asking Ron Kangas for the official history of Elden Hall.

I know Ron Kangas and he is no Wm. Kelley.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

I know Ron Kangas and he is no Wm. Kelley.

Elden1971, I guess I didn't explain my comparison between Kelley and Kangas adequately.

• Both Kelley and Kangas were gifted, prominent life-time supporters of their leader
• Both Kelley and Kangas possessed stellar reputations within their circle of fellowship, each being recognized as perhaps the most gifted of their leader's students
• Both Kelley and Kangas worked as their leader's chief editors, compiling their collected works for publishing, thus enjoying further access to their leader
• Both Kelley and Kangas would be naturally biased in their account of events, since neither Kelley nor Kangas were active participants in these actual events, and received their version of events mostly from their leader

And I agree, that every comparison is by nature flawed and imperfect.

"These events" for Kelley would be what happened in Plymouth during the excommunication of Newton during the late 1840's.

"These events" for Kangas would be the history of the church life at Elden Hall in Los Angeles during the 1960's to early 1970's.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Concerning the "heresy" of Newton at Plymouth being justified, I have to disagree. Newton's writings, taken as they are, are well within the boundaries of orthodoxy. It was Darby's misreading, adding in excessive doses of his own dramatic hyperbole, which incited unnecessary alarm within the Plymouth saints.

Elden1971, are you aware of the following events?

During Darby's lengthy stay in Plymouth, due to the sheer weight of his own character, slowly many of the leading brothers in that church were turned against Newton in favor of Darby, Wigram and the exclusives. Nearly two decades later, by 1866, some of these learned men of God, primarily William H. Dorman, began to study in-depth the teachings of Darby concerning the humanity of Jesus our Savior under the "federal headship of Adam." Their exhaustive study of Darby's teachings convinced them that his teaching in substance was identical to Newton's in Plymouth back in the 1840's.

With W.H. Dorman, were other renowned Brethren formerly of Plymouth, namely Captain Percy Hall, Joseph Stancomb, and Thomas Newberry (The Englishman's Bible.) Since Darby and his supporters on Park Ave. in London refused to entertain the notion, nor even consider their research, these brothers could no longer bear the hypocrisy, and parted ways with Darby.

About the year 1860 Mr. Stuart's attention was called to the position taken by those Christians commonly called "Plymouth Brethren" (though they have consistently rejected any such title), represented in Reading by a large "gathering," amidst which ministered the late Wm. Henry Dorman, a former Congregational minister, whose connec­tion with the "brethren" dated from about the year 1840. In the years 1845-1848 Mr. Dorman figured as a trusted ally of the late John Nelson Darby in the formation of what has since been denominated the "Exclusive" section of brethren, the continued unhappy effect of which his eldest son, Mr. W. H. Dorman, of Stafford, endeavoured to some extent to remedy. Mr. Stuart became convinced, under the late Mr. Dorman's influence, of the untenable character of his own churchmanship, and without more ado took his place, as the expression was, in the Reading fellowship, which for years was identified especially with his own name.
During the years 1864-1866, Mr. Stuart's fidelity to "J. N. D. ," like that of others, was tested by Mr. Dorman's uncompromising opposition to Mr. Darby' s teaching with reference to a class of sufferings of our Lord, dis­criminated as "non-atoning," as derived from His associa­tion with Israel. This doctrine "W.H.D." put on the same plane as that of B. W. Newton, which brought about the split in 1848. The close acquaintance, however, of C. E. Stuart with the usage of Hebrew words which came into play for any Biblical scholar having to consider such a question, aided him in determining the direction of his own sympathies in the matter. He did not follow the example of his Reading associate, who then seceded from the Darby fellowship.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

About the year 1860 Mr. Stuart's attention was called to the position taken by those Christians commonly called "Plymouth Brethren" (though they have consistently rejected any such title), represented in Reading by a large "gathering," amidst which ministered the late Wm. Henry Dorman, a former Congregational minister, whose connection with the "brethren" dated from about the year 1840. In the years 1845-1848 Mr. Dorman figured as a trusted ally of the late John Nelson Darby in the formation of what has since been denominated the "Exclusive" section of brethren, the continued unhappy effect of which his eldest son, Mr. W. H. Dorman, of Stafford, endeavoured to some extent to remedy. Mr. Stuart became convinced, under the late Mr. Dorman's influence, of the untenable character of his own churchmanship, and without more ado took his place, as the expression was, in the Reading fellowship, which for years was identified especially with his own name.

During the years 1864-1866, Mr. Stuart's fidelity to "J. N. D. ," like that of others, was tested by Mr. Dorman's uncompromising opposition to Mr. Darby' s teaching with reference to a class of sufferings of our Lord, discriminated as "non-atoning," as derived from His association with Israel. This doctrine "W.H.D." put on the same plane as that of B. W. Newton, which brought about the split in 1848. The close acquaintance, however, of C. E. Stuart with the usage of Hebrew words which came into play for any Biblical scholar having to consider such a question, aided him in determining the direction of his own sympathies in the matter. He did not follow the example of his Reading associate, who then seceded from the Darby fellowship.

In this segment, taken from Pickering's collection, shows only that Stuart was loyal to Darby until death. Though he was a dear brother (they all were!) Brethren culture by this time demanded unwavering loyalties to the established leader. Contrary voices of reason could never, and would never, be accepted lest the MOTA mystique which surrounded Darby be shattered.

A word of explanation here. The teachings in question refer to whether or not Jesus as a man, born of a virgin, a true Israelite, come under the law, during his 30+ years on earth passed through "non-atoning" sufferings or not. In other words, did Jesus suffer as a normal man in Israel would have? Was He disciplined as a child, did he ever get hurt on the job, did He ever fall and get a boo-boo, was He ever bullied, etc.? Newton, in a few messages shared that Jesus lived a "normal" life, not unlike His peers. Except for glimpses of brilliance in the Temple at age 12, Jesus never stood out in Nazareth as a boy wonder.

Darby publicly crushed the recently widowed Newton for this teaching, destroying his reputation among the Brethren, ridiculing him to open shame, summarized by his statement, "Newton's Savior needs a Savior."
Newton provided tracts to reject what he never said, but Darby was never interested in just the truth. Darby needed his rival removed from the scene.

Fast forward to the 1860's, many notable scholars among the Brethren (and there were many!) such as Dorman gathered together the teachings of both Darby and Newton on this very topic for comparison. They concluded that Darby took Newton's teachings as his own after he condemned Newton for them! Stuart, as noted above, stood with Darby by citing some obscure Hebrew words to differentiate the teachings of the two.

When I first read this sad 20 year Brethren story spanning the original attacks on Newton until the final departures of many brothers influenced by Dorman et. al. was during the time leading up to the quarantine of Titus Chu. I was literally in the midst of tract wars, and a war of words. The more I studied both sides' views, the more I realized rhetoric without substance, that we were simply repeating Brethren history, and that their split like our own had nothing to do with teachings and practices, rather both ugly scenes from history were simply power struggles. Ambitious men fighting to be first in line.

Once I realized this, it all made so much sense, and I decided it was about time to leave.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I first read this sad 20 year Brethren story spanning the original attacks on Newton until the final departures of many brothers influenced by Dorman et. al. was during the time leading up to the quarantine of Titus Chu. I was literally in the midst of tract wars, and a war of words. The more I studied both sides' views, the more I realized rhetoric without substance, that we were simply repeating Brethren history, and that their split like our own had nothing to do with teachings and practices, rather both ugly scenes from history were simply power struggles. Ambitious men fighting to be first in line.
Once I realized this, it all made so much sense, and I decided it was about time to leave.

I am certainly happy you got out and look forward to fellowship with you.

-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

I am certainly happy you got out and look forward to fellowship with you.

You sure you want to fellowship?

If you were around last night, you saw how salty I can get.