How to help people whose friends and relatives are active members of the LC

[james73]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I just came across a PDF for how to recognize cults and cult leaders. Many of them disturbingly match the LC system:

http://www.mikebickle.org.edgesuite....cteristics.pdf

This could be a helpful guide for friends and family who are considering whether or not they should leave the LCs for healthier churches.

Thanks BearBear-

One I found useful was: http://www.enlightened-spirituality....nal_cults.html

The link I posted there offers a list of 35 "warning signs". Using this I decided to score three Hong Kong churches, with 0-10 points for each warning sign, giving a maximum score of 350. It's subjective but I did TRY to be objective in allocating points I did this while still in the LC and deciding whether I should stay or go. I scored the other churches cos I was just curious if it was maybe a Christian thing, and also to get some kind of benchmark. You could call it a "cult score".

Church in Hong Kong (Living Stream Ministry): score 226, or 65%
International Christian Assembly (Assemblies of God): score 89, or 25%
St Johns Cathedral (Anglican): score 15, or 4%

Interesting to see if anyone else has the time and inclination to do likewise, see if there's any consistency in the results!

Cheers

James

[InChristAlone]

Brother BearBear and brother James, thank you for the interesting links!

Personally I believe the LC is not a Christian sect but a cult, since they not only tend to control their members but also faithfully follow WL's teachings, not Jesus Christ's teachings. It's an imitation of Christianity to destroy the truth and persuade men to follow religious ideas not of God.

Sect: a group of people with somewhat different religious beliefs (typically regarded as heretical) from those of a larger group to which they belong.

Cult: a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members.

Excessive brainwashing and control over members make the difference.

It's a waste of time and effort when my wife sacrifices her personal life for numerous meetings, conferences, and training that don't lead her anywhere.

PS "By sociological typology, cults are, like sects, new religious groups. But, unlike sects, they can form without breaking off from another religious group, though this is by no means always the case. The characteristic that most distinguishes cults from sects is that they are not advocating a return to pure religion but rather the embracement of something new or something that has been completely lost or forgotten (e.g., lost scriptures or new prophecy). Cults are also much more likely to be led by charismatic leaders than are other religious groups and the charismatic leaders tend to be the individuals who bring forth the new or lost component that is the focal element of the cult...

Cults, like sects, can develop into denominations. As cults grow, they bureaucratize and develop many of the characteristics of denominations. Some scholars are hesitant to grant cults denominational status because many cults maintain their more esoteric characteristics. But given their closer semblance to denominations than to the cult type, it is more accurate to describe them as denominations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociolo...ious_movements

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by james73

Thanks BearBear-

One I found useful was: http://www.enlightened-spirituality....nal_cults.html

The link I posted there offers a list of 35 "warning signs". Using this I decided to score three Hong Kong churches, with 0-10 points for each warning sign, giving a maximum score of 350. It's subjective but I did TRY to be objective in allocating points I did this while still in the LC and deciding whether I should stay or go. I scored the other churches cos I was just curious if it was maybe a Christian thing, and also to get some kind of benchmark. You could call it a "cult score".

Church in Hong Kong (Living Stream Ministry): score 226, or 65%
International Christian Assembly (Assemblies of God): score 89, or 25%
St Johns Cathedral (Anglican): score 15, or 4%

Interesting to see if anyone else has the time and inclination to do likewise, see if there's any consistency in the results!

Cheers

James

According to that link, even the Republican Party is cultic!

Notoriously "left out," however, is the radical liberal Democratic Party.

I did find it comforting to learn that nearly every organization is cultic in some way, whether benign or malignant, functional or dysfunctional.

[InChristAlone]

I just thought that probably it’s not that important if the Local Church is a sect, a cult or even a church. The main point is that they are not what they pretend to be.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

I just thought that probably it’s not that important if the Local Church is a sect, a cult or even a church. The main point is that they are not what they pretend to be.

Yes indeed, and, of course, it was all those broken promises, false claims, and haughty pretensions which finally awakened me from my slumber to begin to examine who we really had become.

Just to tag along on the end of this, while we are mentioning brainwashing. I have a friend of my friend who is in the church. My college best friend came about this new friend, and they hang out a lot.

Anyways, I told her that she's in a cult. I brought up how it was in that encyclopedia and all that. She said it was dispelled with that "we were wrong" article. And I said the author of that article has also been called corrupt.

So we dropped the subject for a second, and I mumbled "You're more gone than I thought."

And she says, "what?"

And I looked her in the eye and said, "They brainwash you there, do you know that? You're brainwashed."

Now here's the kicker, her reply:
"What is wrong with brainwashing when it is in the name of the Lord and it brings you to His Kingdom?"

That's when I felt like I had no shot at getting through to her. Because brainwashing in any sense is wrong, to me at least. They should be allowed to think for themselves but I can't seem to get through to them. I'm going to try to ask them to read Psalms and James, like you guys have suggested.

I just know they both don't belong there. I pray all the time about it, and I feel that the Lord has directed me to help them come out of it.

InChristAlone, have you had any success with your wife? I've been going through the same encounter practically with my best friend.

[aron]

Originally Posted by NeedofHelp

her reply:
"What is wrong with brainwashing when it is in the name of the Lord and it brings you to His Kingdom?"

That's when I felt like I had no shot at getting through to her. Because brainwashing in any sense is wrong, to me at least.

Brainwashing is a sort of controversial term, like "cult". It's so emotionally freighted that it's hard to use in any objective way that all the participants in the discussion agree upon.

My own subjective reaction is this: brainwashing is good if it is done by God, but not good if done by other fallen humans. The Bible is God's speaking to us; it shows us the heavenly kingdom, and releases us from the bonds of earth. As Paul said, "the things that are seen are not real, but the invisible things are eternal." The Bible shows us the invisible things and it's good, by faith, to receive these words of life. This is good brainwashing; to have our soul (our mind) re-made in God's image.

The problem here is that Nee's and Lee's thinking is the vehicle for brainwashing, and that is no better than if you become my acolyte or I become yours. We then become followers of others, and not of God. Jesus told the Pharisees, "You lead your disciples into the ditch"; the blind lead the blind. So my question is: who is washing your brain - God or man?

Originally Posted by NeedofHelp

I just know they both don't belong there. I pray all the time about it, and I feel that the Lord has directed me to help them come out of it.

Look what Jesus did to break people's rotten thinking. He showed the contradictions inherent in their own belief systems. As soon as they realized the inherent irrationality of their mental constructions, they were freed from their power. See, for example:

"Whose son is the Christ?"

"David's son"

"Then how does David in spirit call Him Lord, saying, 'The LORD said to my Lord..."

The Living Stream Ministry (LSM) bases its mental constructions on a set of mutually reinforcing principles. They propose only one church in each city, for example. But that bases itself on a set of reinforcing verses which create an image of scriptural rationality. The uses of ekklesia, or "church" that don't fit the LSM understanding, are ignored. Hundreds of years before Jesus told Peter, "on this rock I will build my church" the Greek Septuagint was already using the word; see for example Psalm 22:22. Obviously it had different meanings before the NT.

Another example is Acts 19:41. "And with these words he dismissed the assembly". How could the town clerk in Ephesus dismiss a church (ekklesia)? So we translate the Greek word to something different to maintain our mental coherence.

And in Romans 16, there are assemblies in Rome that meet in houses, and are also called 'ekklesia'. So Paul was aware of more than one 'church' in Rome and didn't have a problem with that. In fact, multiple assemblies per urban area demonstrate growth and multiplication, not division as LSM maintains! Even the LSM allows multiple assemblies in each urban area, as long as they play with words and call them 'meetings' or something like that; then they don't violate their own concepts.

Your job is to point out the contradictions inherent in LSM ideas. They don't see the contradictions because they are inside the small circle of thoughts and shared meanings. You're outside the circle, using a bigger Bible, a broader range of meanings, and can raise these points. Jesus said, "A house divided cannot stand"; the words of scripture can expose the division in LSM teachings and show that they are confused, contradictory, and of Babel.

Now, I could do the same with all of LSMs foundational principles, which they use to brainwash their clients. All of them are based on small sets of verses which deliberately ignore scriptures that don't fit the Nee and Lee 'vision'. In LSM terms, you have to "get the vision"; the vision of the Body, of the local church, of the ministry of the age, etc. You have to uncritically receive a set of propositions that are inherently contradictory with the entire Biblical corpus. As long as you attend the trainings regularly and get your brain washed with the narrow tenets of the group, which involves ignoring and explaining away non-LSM scriptures, you can maintain the fiction.

So my suggestion is that if you care about your friends, to educate yourself in a Bible beyond that used by LSM. Like you mentioned, they ignore stuff like Psalms & James, that doesn't fit their 'vision'. So if you have a bigger Bible than they do, then you can free them.

Remember how Jesus freed peoples' minds: "Have you not read the scriptures?" (Matt 19:4) Jesus said, "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of My Father's mouth". Not just some of the words, those that fit your mental constructions. Jesus said, "These things were written concerning Me". Not just the things that Lee liked, in the 'Christ in His human living' teachings. Jesus is bigger than Lee's teachings and you can present this to your friends. This will open the doors of perception. Then they can leave. As long as the LSM maintains a tight grip on their brain they can't leave.

It is the same kind of therapy used to free schizophrenics. Make them aware, make them confront the contradictions inherent in their own thinking, and then they will see the doorway out. Otherwise they are trapped, and round and round the circle they go.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

Brainwashing is a sort of controversial term, like "cult". It's so emotionally freighted that it's hard to use in any objective way that all the participants in the discussion agree upon.

....

It is the same kind of therapy used to free schizophrenics. Make them aware, make them confront the contradictions inherent in their own thinking, and then they will see the doorway out. Otherwise they are trapped, and round and round the circle they go.

A linchpin in all this is that the LRC discredits the independent thought processes necessary to arrive at conclusions other than theirs. Not only do they inundate members with their teachings, they issue explicit warnings and impose controlling social structures which make it practically impossible to exist in their culture while holding to differing views. The member is trained that even entertaining the idea that the CHURCH is in error is a transgression.

It's not hard to consider possible alternatives to the LRC's beliefs and practices. What's hard is to have the courage to drop the LRC versions for the alternatives.

This is the "genius" of controlling groups. The very act of initially considering they might be in error is itself a sin. To question the group is to step out of the light. They shoot the horse before it has a chance to leave the gate.

It's an extremely effective, self-reinforcing means of control. We all fell prey to it.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by NeedofHelp

Just to tag along on the end of this, while we are mentioning brainwashing. I have a friend of my friend who is in the church. My college best friend came about this new friend, and they hang out a lot.

Anyways, I told her that she's in a cult. I brought up how it was in that encyclopedia and all that. She said it was dispelled with that "we were wrong" article. And I said the author of that article has also been called corrupt.

So we dropped the subject for a second, and I mumbled "You're more gone than I thought."

And she says, "what?"

And I looked her in the eye and said, "They brainwash you there, do you know that? You're brainwashed."

Now here's the kicker, her reply:
"What is wrong with brainwashing when it is in the name of the Lord and it brings you to His Kingdom?"

That's when I felt like I had no shot at getting through to her. Because brainwashing in any sense is wrong, to me at least. They should be allowed to think for themselves but I can't seem to get through to them. I'm going to try to ask them to read Psalms and James, like you guys have suggested.

I just know they both don't belong there. I pray all the time about it, and I feel that the Lord has directed me to help them come out of it.

InChristAlone, have you had any success with your wife? I've been going through the same encounter practically with my best friend.

I have been to a college training. I have also been to a number of college conferences for that matter. I tended to be fine with college conferences, but I had a hard time at the college training. The environment seemed strict and tense.

When I look back at the time when I was in college and why I went to a college training, I think my main motive was that it made me feel "important" and I knew I would get props for going. I realize that some are pushed to go even though they don't want to. That wasn't the case with me. I felt like I had something to prove by going.

My experience of the college training was that I had to follow a strict schedule, sit through 3+ meetings a day and basically act like I was being "trained". I look back on it and realize it was all a big act I was putting on. I think all the rules and regulations really kept it from being a more positive experience for me.

I think that it goes without saying that the posted rules are strict and you wouldn't expect to see rules like that at a retreat for any other church. I don't necessarily have a problem with strict rules, but it would do one well to ask what is the motive and purpose is behind those rules? Who is making those rules and why are they necessary? Their superficial answer to that question is that the college students need to be "trained". I think that the whole issue of the whole trainer/trainee idea is just that they need people who are willing to do what they are told and accept LC doctrines without question.

Regarding "brainwashing", I never experience anything like it. I will say that sitting in meetings for 6 or more hours a day can be quite stressful and can have ill effects on people, I know it does for me. Looking back the result of a week of the college training, was that it created a bit of a superiority complex in me. By that I mean I felt I saw a "vision" unique to those who were there.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Regarding "brainwashing", I never experience anything like it.

Reminds me of a line from the classic movie "The Sting". The old con artist, played by Paul Newman, tells his trainee, "You have to keep this con after you take his money. He can't know you took him."

The most effective brainwashing is where the mark doesn't realize that their brain has been taken over. It must be set up carefully to be effective. The Local Church version requires two things. First, get them to agree that there is a God in the universe and that Jesus is the way to God. Make them see that the Bible shows Jesus Christ the Savior of the world. So first you establish the authority of the scriptures.

Then, you are all set: all you have to do is select some parts of the Bible that will guide your "mark" to take the bait. Put your "mark" in a heavy, emotional scene where people are screaming these special words, shaking, men are crying, women are drooling and slumped over, and get the mark to wave their arms and shout the special words.

Once the mark has created an emotional response to your special words, you've got them. Now your words are inserted not only in their brain but in their "heart". They refuse to critically examine these words because of the special emotional relationship established. Their ability to learn, to grow, to change (i.e. be transformed) has been terminated.

Look at the disciples of Jesus. How many times in the gospels does it say that "they were astonished beyond measure." Once you take the Local Church way, the only way to get that "astonished beyond measure" experience is to go to some heavy, charged atmosphere where people are crying out the teachings of Lee. "I'm a God-man!!! I'm a God-man!!!" Etc. They call them, meetings, trainings, conferences, and so forth. But they are inculcation seminars. They are re-wiring your brain with the Lee program.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Looking back the result of a week of the college training, was that it created a bit of a superiority complex in me. By that I mean I felt I saw a "vision" unique to those who were there.

That special feeling you got, was an indicator that you'd been had. But as long as you could point back to a few Bible verses, you never knew you'd been taken for a ride.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by NeedofHelp

InChristAlone, have you had any success with your wife? I've been going through the same encounter practically with my best friend.

NeedofHelp, I am sorry for my late reply. I have been very busy these days.

Unfortunately, I have not had any visible success. The only big change is that she is not angry with me when I am trying to explain her that the LRC is a cult. (Well, maybe that was stupid of me but I had to tell her everything I think of the Local Church). One more change: we don't read Morning Revival in the morning anymore. But we read the Holy Bible. Besides, we also read some articles on prayer from books which were published by my church.

My wife still attends all the meetings and conferences. She thinks they draw her closer to God. She rejects any critical remarks. So it looks as if I am talking to a wall. I just hope the process of transformation has started. But it may take my wife a few years to see the truth. She needs God's grace to make it happen.

Originally Posted by NeedofHelp

Now here's the kicker, her reply:
"What is wrong with brainwashing when it is in the name of the Lord and it brings you to His Kingdom?"

I believe God never uses brainwashing. He is not a manipulator. God is our healer. He heals and never manipulates. Someone said, "Devil knocks at man's mind. God knocks at man's heart." Well, maybe this statement is not 100% true, but it's false teachings and doctrines that Devil uses to deceive, manipulate, and brainwash people. God says, "I love you, my beloved child. Come to me." Satan says, "Do you want to know God? Follow me. I know the way". For God, the key is love. If you want to know God, human brains are useless. If we want to know Him, we must use our hearts. But Devil says, "Wait, my friend. Do you want to know God? I'll give you the knowledge". That's what happens in the LRC. The LRC members put the Holy Bible aside, close their hearts, and open their brains for "the high-peak truth". They think WL and blended brothers are leading them to the Kingdom of God, but in fact, they are going somewhere else. I can't say where they are going but I am 100% sure that the Lord's message and Witness Lee's message are not the same. Just open the Gospels at any page and do the same with Morning Revival or any other book of WL. The difference is significant. Unfortunately, the LRC members can't see it.

I don't give up. I am in my motherland now, alone, but when I come back to my wife, I believe I will give her all my support and even let her have the LRC meetings at our place. However, I will stop taking part in them. So no more critics for her and no more meetings for me. The latter is waste of time and I don't want to be a part of it. The LRC meetings, books, and seminars don't lead us anywhere. Communion with God is possible if a man develops a close relationship with the Lord, not when he reads someone's opinion about God. So I want to make a change and live a spiritual life that leads me to Christ. And if there is a change in my life, then there is a chance that my wife's life will be changed as well.

Trust in the Lord. My experience says me that all is for the best.

May the Lord bless and help you.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

One more change: we don't read Morning Revival in the morning anymore.

This past Sunday morning my family and I attended a LC service. Reading through the week of the morning revival they were covering, I was appalled there are those who actually believe what was printed. Compared to the broad spectrum of the Body of Christ, the assumption LSM printed came across as being sectarian.
Of course that's based on the belief the Body of Christ is all inclusive where you meet; in the community churches, home churches, or even the denominations.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

I don't give up. I am in my motherland now, alone, but when I come back to my wife, I believe I will give her all my support and even let her have the LRC meetings at our place. However, I will stop taking part in them.

ICA you are the head of the house. If the meetings are in your home, then you can share your portion of Christ from His word. You might be surrendering too much to let others run meetings in your own home.

Consider this when you pray. May the Lord bless you and your family.