How to help people whose friends and relatives are active members of the LC

[UntoHim]

InChristAlone,

First of all thanks for coming to the forum and putting yourself out here. It takes a lot of heart and fortitude, not to mention being a little quick on your feet to dodge all the bullets coming your way.

I can tell you from personal experience that it will not be very profitable to get into the subject of Phillip Lee with your wife. Same goes for the many business scams such as Daystar and Linko...it will just end up creating tension between you. God knows there are enough things that cause tension in a marriage without getting into things that happened in the Local Church 30 or 40 years ago!

You are on the right track by getting into the Word together. Psalms is as good as a place to start as any! Even if she wants to read the RV footnotes, just try to make the heart of your time together the actual scriptures themselves. Also I find that good, solid Christian hymns can be something that you both can enjoy together. Your moniker "InChristAlone" reminds me of a very good hymn that no Local Churcher could have a problem with. We sing this one all the time at my church.

http://www.gettymusic.com/hymns-inchristalone.aspx

[bearbear]

Wow that was really brave to pull out Philip Lee this quickly. UntoHim is right though, it may be best not to bring it up again until she is ready.

I had to slowly expose flaws in the local church system my wife herself was subconsciously aware of and slowly build that up to how it's damaged our family members. I also showed her verses in scripture which clearly state we're expected to have a heart for the poor and obvious things like that which Lee's ministry goes against.

After I felt she was ready, I had her read John So's testimony. She believed everything he said but still made excuses for what happened which was hard to believe for me. Don't underestimate what spending years in the LCs can do to build up mental walls in a person. Eventually, I had her read John Ingall's testimony and she was a little bit more open.

She ultimately chose to leave after I said I couldn't go on spiritually in the LC. Then we started going to different churches and she got to see for herself that there are other folks crazy or crazier for Jesus out there. Then she started realizing how much she was fooled into looking down on these Christians by the LC system. She also came to realize that the LCs are even more of a denomination than other churches, it's non-denominational in name only but in practice it's almost more hierarchical and centralized than even the Catholic church, not to bash Catholics because I've met some that love Jesus and know more bible than 99% of LCers.

An elder's wife from our locality severely reprimanded her for entertaining the thought of leaving. This of course backfired Hallelujah! The whole time after we left, everyone from the LC tried to get my wife on their side after they realized I was deadset on leaving. But we wouldn't budge because we weren't willing to let go of our newfound freedom, however bad the consequences. I felt we were like the Israelites who were leaving the system of slavery in Egypt, though we lost all our comforts (friendships, relationships etc.), we chose to cherish our freedom more than the things we left behind (unlike most of the Israelites).

I'm thankful for the love and help the saints from the LC showed us during our time there and I wish I could find more ways to appreciate them. I still love the people, but man does it feel like they are enslaved by the system. I wish it could be the other way around sometimes where we are the ones bringing them out of the system and not them trying to bring us back into it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

An elder's wife from our locality severely reprimanded her for entertaining the thought of leaving. This of course backfired Hallelujah! The whole time after we left, everyone from the LC tried to get my wife on their side after they realized I was deadset on leaving. But we wouldn't budge because we weren't willing to let go of our newfound freedom, however bad the consequences. I felt we were like the Israelites who were leaving the system of slavery in Egypt, though we lost all our comforts (friendships, relationships etc.), we chose to cherish our freedom more than the things we left behind (unlike most of the Israelites).

I'm thankful for the love and help the saints from the LC showed us during our time there and I wish I could find more ways to appreciate them. I still love the people, but man does it feel like they are enslaved by the system. I wish it could be the other way around sometimes where we are the ones bringing them out of the system and not them trying to bring us back into it.

Bearbear, that happened to my wife too! I guess they thought she was a "pushover."

Another eye-opener was how they treat you once you leave. One elder's wife never would greet me when I would occasionally visit to break bread and see some old friends. Then one day I came with our former moderator and his wife. Everyone loved me, and she was all friendly too. They thought I was bringing "new ones."

[InChristAlone]

bearbear, what a wonderful and inspiring testimony!

Originally Posted by bearbear

Wow that was really brave to pull out Philip Lee this quickly.

I'd not say "brave"; it was rather reckless.

Originally Posted by bearbear

I still love the people, but man does it feel like they are enslaved by the system.

It does feel like that!

Unfortunately, my wife doesn't see any flaws in the system. She thinks she is in a Christian church. And not only a church but the Church, the only one genuine Christian church. She doesn't notice the usurpation.

Once we listened to one of RK’s messages. It looked great for everyone in the hall. Bro Ron talked about the LC and spirituality. He said that spiritual individuals are dangerous for the church. “We must build the Body first, and then the Lord will dismiss the limits. God doesn't want spiritual giants. God wants the Body, for saints to have oneness with God and each other.” Sounds good, right? I don’t need to be spiritual to take care of my spiritual needs. I need to take care of the Body fist. What’s wrong with this idea? Well, a plastic apple and a natural apple may look the same. And you never know which one is real until you bite.

I don’t find anything wrong with personal spirituality. That's true -- there are lots of traps on the way to God. But ego, pride, and selfishness have nothing to do with true spirituality. There are lots of “spiritual giants” in other churches. For example, in the Orthodox Church there are lots of saints, monks, and other spiritual individuals. It benefits the church AND ordinary believers. The more spiritual individuals, the stronger the church.

In my opinion, the more you grow spiritually, the closer you get to God. How are WL’s followers going to have oneness and build the Body when they do not have spirit of God? You must be a spiritual person, who gained God’s love and grace to be qualified to have oneness and be in the Body with other spiritual brothers and sisters. But in the LC they believe that spirituality is a Body matter. You don’t need to be spiritual. Just be in the Body. As Tostoy say, "Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself."

It’s some kind of manipulation, a typical thing for cults. Just be in the gang, “Big Brother” will take care of you. Be loyal, follow the crowd, and don't stick your neck out! Big Brother will do your job. Look are WL, RK, EM and Co. – none of them look spiritual. But they have an “excuse”. They have a bigger job. They are building the Body.

I can be mistaken, but my answer is “Be closer to God first, have personal relationships with Him, and then you will have oneness with Him and His Body”. In other words, you must take effort, put your seeds in the soil, grow the tree, and then reap the fruits, not the other way around.

On the other hand, being in the Body may also transform you, make you more spiritual, and bring you closer to God, but it must be the Body of Christ, His Body and His Church, not the quasi-church of Witness Lee.

I feel sad when I see so many wonderful brothers and sisters who have been entrapped, poisoned, and enslaved by the system. They are longing for Christ. They think the are building His Body. But they are just pawns in the big game. Deceived and manipulated, they stopped their spiritual growth. They are not getting closer to God, but are serving the system.

PS I’m not a big fan of Tolstoy’s books and teachings, but I want to share some of his quotes.

"Where Love Is, God Is"

"Don't seek God in temples. He is close to you. He is within you. Only you should surrender to Him and you will rise above happiness and unhappiness."

“An arrogant person considers himself perfect. This is the chief harm of arrogance. It interferes with a person’s main task in life—becoming a better person.”

“He who exalts himself shall be humbled; and he who humbles himself shall be exalted.” (Matthew 23:12) The person who exalts himself ... will be humbled, because a person who considers himself to be good, intelligent, and kind will not even try to become better, smarter, kinder. The humble person will be exalted, because he considers himself bad and will try to become better, kinder, and more reasonable.

“Genuine religion is not about speculating about God or the soul or about what happened in the past or will happen in the future; it cares only about one thing—finding out exactly what should or should not be done in this lifetime.”

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

Unfortunately, my wife doesn't see any flaws in the system. She thinks she is in a Christian church. And not only a church but the Church, the only one genuine Christian church. She doesn't notice the usurpation.

Once we listened to one of RK’s messages. It looked great for everyone in the hall. Bro Ron talked about the LC and spirituality. He said that spiritual individuals are dangerous for the church. “We must build the Body first, and then the Lord will dismiss the limits. God doesn't want spiritual giants. God wants the Body, for saints to have oneness with God and each other.” Sounds good, right? I don’t need to be spiritual to take care of my spiritual needs. I need to take care of the Body fist. What’s wrong with this idea? Well, a plastic apple and a natural apple may look the same. And you never know which one is real until you bite.

In my opinion, the more you grow spiritually, the closer you get to God. How are WL’s followers going to have oneness and build the Body when they do not have spirit of God? You must be a spiritual person, who gained God’s love and grace to be qualified to have oneness and be in the Body with other spiritual brothers and sisters. But in the LC they believe that spirituality is a Body matter. You don’t need to be spiritual. Just be in the Body. As Tostoy say, "Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself."

There are other groups that consider their fellowship to be "the Church". The closed Brethren and Iglesia Ni Cristo just to name a few.
I'll give Ron Kangas this, he is a good speaker. When I listened to a message Ron gave in the Northwest a few years ago on Mark 11:25 (Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.) I wondered if he practices what he's speaking, Ron must have forgiven John Ingalls. As Ron had attributed some responsibility to late 80's turmoil to John Ingalls.

You will need to understand when I hear LSM speak on The Body, it's from the context LSM practices are sectarian as they divide the Body. View among many local churches is those in fellowship with LSM constitute the Body. LSM/LC have made their receiving narrower than God's receiving.

Generally if much of the ministry LSM publishes was actually practiced, some of us might not be on this forum. When one takes the approach to use the ministry through God's Word to show we are not practicing the ministry, you might get accused of using the minstry to attack the ministry.

As for blending brothers, many have been part of the problem when they could be part of the solution.

[InChristAlone]

Brother Terry, I agree with you. RK is a wonderful speaker. Besides, he looks like a nice old man, a perfect fruit of the "Witness Lee's tree". But I'm afraid there are a few words about both of them in the Bible.

And He spoke a parable to them: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch? A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher.
Luke 6:39-40

Let them alone: they are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Matthew 15:14

My wife and I started to read Psalms every morning before reading WL’s “Morning Revival”. And before we go the bed, we read the Epistle of James. I feel the difference between the word of God and the word of man. “Morning Revival” bears no comparison. It's too dry, shallow, and powerless.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

Brother Terry, I agree with you. RK is a wonderful speaker.

I remember back when Ron gave testimonies. Seemed he could always read the moment of learning, and could speak to it in a penetrating way. He tried to teach me that gift, but I could never do it even close to his way. But I didn't have Princeton Theological Seminary behind me like him.

So I've listen to some of his sermons on the web. They're a wonderful sleep aid. He now seems to me to just drone on and on. Seems to me his speaking has lost its mojo. Now it sticks out that he's a Leebot.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Seems to me RK's speaking has lost its mojo. Now it sticks out that he's a Leebot.

No, he's his own man. He loves those Deeetroit Tigers!

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by awareness

I remember back when Ron gave testimonies. Seemed he could always read the moment of learning, and could speak to it in a penetrating way. He tried to teach me that gift, but I could never do it even close to his way. But I didn't have Princeton Theological Seminary behind me like him.

So I've listen to some of his sermons on the web. They're a wonderful sleep aid. He now seems to me to just drone on and on. Seems to me his speaking has lost its mojo. Now it sticks out that he's a Leebot.

I think he has some kind of mojo, but only if he is interested in the topic.

I don't quite understand him. He reminds me of WL, not only because I find his speeches spiritless, but also because I'm not sure that deep down in his heart he believes what he preaches. He looks as if he wants to convince himself and "his" people of the truth of his words.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

My wife and I started to read Psalms every morning before reading WL’s “Morning Revival”. And before we go the bed, we read the Epistle of James. I feel the difference between the word of God and the word of man. “Morning Revival” bears no comparison. It's too dry, shallow, and powerless.

Excellent you are reading the Book of James. It served as a deliverance of sorts for me. Releasing me from many of the LC practices that had been ingrained in me since youth. I think in part that's why Psalms and James is not thought highly of in LSM circles. I would even include Proverbs and Malachi too.
These books in scripture expose the systemic practices LSM/LC rely on.

[InChristAlone]

Today I tried to talk to my wife about what makes her think that the LC is the only genuine church, while there is a bunch of other organizations that have the same claims. She said, “That’s true. I just know that the LC is the only genuine church”. When I asked her for any proofs, she wanted to give me some WL’s books. When I asked for some proofs in the Bible, not one man’s interpretation of the Scriptures, she said, “I’d listen to you if you knew Hebrew and Greek and studied the Bible, but since you are not an expert, it doesn't make sense to continue our discussion.”

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Terry

Excellent you are reading the Book of James. It served as a deliverance of sorts for me. Releasing me from many of the LC practices that had been ingrained in me since youth. I think in part that's why Psalms and James is not thought highly of in LSM circles. I would even include Proverbs and Malachi too.
These books in scripture expose the systemic practices LSM/LC rely on.

Thank you, brother Terry. And thanks to all brothers who recommended me to read the Book of James, Psalms, and Proverbs. I'd never have started doing it on my own.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

InChristAlone,

First of all thanks for coming to the forum and putting yourself out here. It takes a lot of heart and fortitude, not to mention being a little quick on your feet to dodge all the bullets coming your way.

I can tell you from personal experience that it will not be very profitable to get into the subject of Phillip Lee with your wife. Same goes for the many business scams such as Daystar and Linko...it will just end up creating tension between you. God knows there are enough things that cause tension in a marriage without getting into things that happened in the Local Church 30 or 40 years ago!

You are on the right track by getting into the Word together. Psalms is as good as a place to start as any! Even if she wants to read the RV footnotes, just try to make the heart of your time together the actual scriptures themselves. Also I find that good, solid Christian hymns can be something that you both can enjoy together. Your moniker "InChristAlone" reminds me of a very good hymn that no Local Churcher could have a problem with. We sing this one all the time at my church.

http://www.gettymusic.com/hymns-inchristalone.aspx

UntoHim, thank you for your kind words of encouragement. Special thanks for the link. I know this wonderful hymn. BTW, you were right. When I was choosing my moniker, I was inspired by a Christian song. It has the same title, In Christ Alone, but different tune and lyrics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtCghNUyBGc

"...My source of strength
My source of hope
Is Christ alone."

And here is Anthony Burger's brilliant piano version of this song:

http://www.amazon.com/In-Christ-Alone/dp/B001TOARPO

I think I share your personal experience now, too. It was not profitable to get into the subject of WN, Phillip Lee and Co. with my wife. Yesterday night I quarreled with her again. Usually, she is a lovely girl, but when I touched her comfort zone, she got irritated. So I ended up reading Psalms alone. From now on I've got to be more careful. I'll still do my part, but I will leave the main work to the Lord. We are going to read Psalms, Proverbs, and the Epistle of James every day.