How to help people whose friends and relatives are active members of the LC

[InChristAlone]

bearbear, what a wonderful and inspiring testimony!

Originally Posted by bearbear

Wow that was really brave to pull out Philip Lee this quickly.

I'd not say "brave"; it was rather reckless.

Originally Posted by bearbear

I still love the people, but man does it feel like they are enslaved by the system.

It does feel like that!

Unfortunately, my wife doesn't see any flaws in the system. She thinks she is in a Christian church. And not only a church but the Church, the only one genuine Christian church. She doesn't notice the usurpation.

Once we listened to one of RK’s messages. It looked great for everyone in the hall. Bro Ron talked about the LC and spirituality. He said that spiritual individuals are dangerous for the church. “We must build the Body first, and then the Lord will dismiss the limits. God doesn't want spiritual giants. God wants the Body, for saints to have oneness with God and each other.” Sounds good, right? I don’t need to be spiritual to take care of my spiritual needs. I need to take care of the Body fist. What’s wrong with this idea? Well, a plastic apple and a natural apple may look the same. And you never know which one is real until you bite.

I don’t find anything wrong with personal spirituality. That's true -- there are lots of traps on the way to God. But ego, pride, and selfishness have nothing to do with true spirituality. There are lots of “spiritual giants” in other churches. For example, in the Orthodox Church there are lots of saints, monks, and other spiritual individuals. It benefits the church AND ordinary believers. The more spiritual individuals, the stronger the church.

In my opinion, the more you grow spiritually, the closer you get to God. How are WL’s followers going to have oneness and build the Body when they do not have spirit of God? You must be a spiritual person, who gained God’s love and grace to be qualified to have oneness and be in the Body with other spiritual brothers and sisters. But in the LC they believe that spirituality is a Body matter. You don’t need to be spiritual. Just be in the Body. As Tostoy say, "Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself."

It’s some kind of manipulation, a typical thing for cults. Just be in the gang, “Big Brother” will take care of you. Be loyal, follow the crowd, and don't stick your neck out! Big Brother will do your job. Look are WL, RK, EM and Co. – none of them look spiritual. But they have an “excuse”. They have a bigger job. They are building the Body.

I can be mistaken, but my answer is “Be closer to God first, have personal relationships with Him, and then you will have oneness with Him and His Body”. In other words, you must take effort, put your seeds in the soil, grow the tree, and then reap the fruits, not the other way around.

On the other hand, being in the Body may also transform you, make you more spiritual, and bring you closer to God, but it must be the Body of Christ, His Body and His Church, not the quasi-church of Witness Lee.

I feel sad when I see so many wonderful brothers and sisters who have been entrapped, poisoned, and enslaved by the system. They are longing for Christ. They think the are building His Body. But they are just pawns in the big game. Deceived and manipulated, they stopped their spiritual growth. They are not getting closer to God, but are serving the system.

PS I’m not a big fan of Tolstoy’s books and teachings, but I want to share some of his quotes.

"Where Love Is, God Is"

"Don't seek God in temples. He is close to you. He is within you. Only you should surrender to Him and you will rise above happiness and unhappiness."

“An arrogant person considers himself perfect. This is the chief harm of arrogance. It interferes with a person’s main task in life—becoming a better person.”

“He who exalts himself shall be humbled; and he who humbles himself shall be exalted.” (Matthew 23:12) The person who exalts himself ... will be humbled, because a person who considers himself to be good, intelligent, and kind will not even try to become better, smarter, kinder. The humble person will be exalted, because he considers himself bad and will try to become better, kinder, and more reasonable.

“Genuine religion is not about speculating about God or the soul or about what happened in the past or will happen in the future; it cares only about one thing—finding out exactly what should or should not be done in this lifetime.”

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

Unfortunately, my wife doesn't see any flaws in the system. She thinks she is in a Christian church. And not only a church but the Church, the only one genuine Christian church. She doesn't notice the usurpation.

Once we listened to one of RK’s messages. It looked great for everyone in the hall. Bro Ron talked about the LC and spirituality. He said that spiritual individuals are dangerous for the church. “We must build the Body first, and then the Lord will dismiss the limits. God doesn't want spiritual giants. God wants the Body, for saints to have oneness with God and each other.” Sounds good, right? I don’t need to be spiritual to take care of my spiritual needs. I need to take care of the Body fist. What’s wrong with this idea? Well, a plastic apple and a natural apple may look the same. And you never know which one is real until you bite.

In my opinion, the more you grow spiritually, the closer you get to God. How are WL’s followers going to have oneness and build the Body when they do not have spirit of God? You must be a spiritual person, who gained God’s love and grace to be qualified to have oneness and be in the Body with other spiritual brothers and sisters. But in the LC they believe that spirituality is a Body matter. You don’t need to be spiritual. Just be in the Body. As Tostoy say, "Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself."

There are other groups that consider their fellowship to be "the Church". The closed Brethren and Iglesia Ni Cristo just to name a few.
I'll give Ron Kangas this, he is a good speaker. When I listened to a message Ron gave in the Northwest a few years ago on Mark 11:25 (Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.) I wondered if he practices what he's speaking, Ron must have forgiven John Ingalls. As Ron had attributed some responsibility to late 80's turmoil to John Ingalls.

You will need to understand when I hear LSM speak on The Body, it's from the context LSM practices are sectarian as they divide the Body. View among many local churches is those in fellowship with LSM constitute the Body. LSM/LC have made their receiving narrower than God's receiving.

Generally if much of the ministry LSM publishes was actually practiced, some of us might not be on this forum. When one takes the approach to use the ministry through God's Word to show we are not practicing the ministry, you might get accused of using the minstry to attack the ministry.

As for blending brothers, many have been part of the problem when they could be part of the solution.

[InChristAlone]

Brother Terry, I agree with you. RK is a wonderful speaker. Besides, he looks like a nice old man, a perfect fruit of the "Witness Lee's tree". But I'm afraid there are a few words about both of them in the Bible.

And He spoke a parable to them: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch? A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher.
Luke 6:39-40

Let them alone: they are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Matthew 15:14

My wife and I started to read Psalms every morning before reading WL’s “Morning Revival”. And before we go the bed, we read the Epistle of James. I feel the difference between the word of God and the word of man. “Morning Revival” bears no comparison. It's too dry, shallow, and powerless.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

Brother Terry, I agree with you. RK is a wonderful speaker.

I remember back when Ron gave testimonies. Seemed he could always read the moment of learning, and could speak to it in a penetrating way. He tried to teach me that gift, but I could never do it even close to his way. But I didn't have Princeton Theological Seminary behind me like him.

So I've listen to some of his sermons on the web. They're a wonderful sleep aid. He now seems to me to just drone on and on. Seems to me his speaking has lost its mojo. Now it sticks out that he's a Leebot.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Seems to me RK's speaking has lost its mojo. Now it sticks out that he's a Leebot.

No, he's his own man. He loves those Deeetroit Tigers!

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by awareness

I remember back when Ron gave testimonies. Seemed he could always read the moment of learning, and could speak to it in a penetrating way. He tried to teach me that gift, but I could never do it even close to his way. But I didn't have Princeton Theological Seminary behind me like him.

So I've listen to some of his sermons on the web. They're a wonderful sleep aid. He now seems to me to just drone on and on. Seems to me his speaking has lost its mojo. Now it sticks out that he's a Leebot.

I think he has some kind of mojo, but only if he is interested in the topic.

I don't quite understand him. He reminds me of WL, not only because I find his speeches spiritless, but also because I'm not sure that deep down in his heart he believes what he preaches. He looks as if he wants to convince himself and "his" people of the truth of his words.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

I think he has some kind of mojo, but only if he is interested in the topic.

I don't quite understand him. He reminds me of WL, not only because I find his speeches spiritless, but also because I'm not sure that deep down in his heart he believes what he preaches. He looks as if he wants to convince himself and "his" people of the truth of his words.

Kangas was always an intellect. Trained at Princeton he was a man of the mind. I don't think he ever took "get out of your mind and turn to your spirit" as anything but a cliché.

As a result he could easily grasp sophisticated hermeneutics, such as Witness Lee's "God's Economy" and promulgate it/them.

And that's why he's nothing but a scribe ... of Witness Lee ... a Leebot ... pushing Lee's force ... and making Living Stream Ministry money.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

Kangas was always an intellect. Trained at Princeton he was a man of the mind. I don't think he ever took "get out of your mind and turn to your spirit" as anything but a cliché.

As a result he could easily grasp sophisticated hermeneutics, such as Witness Lee's "God's Economy" and promulgate it/them.

And that's why he's nothing but a scribe ... of Witness Lee ... a Leebot ... pushing Lee's force ... and making Living Stream Ministry money.

What bothers me about this is that if RK was such an intellectual, he should have been the first one to say "wait a minute, that's not what it says." But it would appear that he joined the rest of us and checked the most important part of his brain at the door. He refused to keep his "Berean" mind and instead turned into a rubber stamp. With credentials like his, for him to agree with Lee was a "false positive" confirmation.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

My wife and I started to read Psalms every morning before reading WL’s “Morning Revival”. And before we go the bed, we read the Epistle of James. I feel the difference between the word of God and the word of man. “Morning Revival” bears no comparison. It's too dry, shallow, and powerless.

Excellent you are reading the Book of James. It served as a deliverance of sorts for me. Releasing me from many of the LC practices that had been ingrained in me since youth. I think in part that's why Psalms and James is not thought highly of in LSM circles. I would even include Proverbs and Malachi too.
These books in scripture expose the systemic practices LSM/LC rely on.

[InChristAlone]

Today I tried to talk to my wife about what makes her think that the LC is the only genuine church, while there is a bunch of other organizations that have the same claims. She said, “That’s true. I just know that the LC is the only genuine church”. When I asked her for any proofs, she wanted to give me some WL’s books. When I asked for some proofs in the Bible, not one man’s interpretation of the Scriptures, she said, “I’d listen to you if you knew Hebrew and Greek and studied the Bible, but since you are not an expert, it doesn't make sense to continue our discussion.”

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

Today I tried to talk to my wife about what makes her think that the LC is the only genuine church, while there is a bunch of other organizations that have the same claims. She said, “That’s true. I just know that the LC is the only genuine church”. When I asked her for any proofs, she wanted to give me some WL’s books. When I asked for some proofs in the Bible, not one man’s interpretation of the Scriptures, she said, “I’d listen to you if you knew Hebrew and Greek and studied the Bible, but since you are not an expert, it doesn't make sense to continue our discussion.”

What about come Hebrew or Greek scholars or experts outside of the Recovery?

[bearbear]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Witness Lee rely on concordances and interlinears just like the rest of us Greek-less peons? Did he know Greek?

By your wife's argument, seminary is a valuable credential to have. If I were to do life all over again I'd probably gravitate towards seminary so I could learn biblical Greek and Hebrew.

However Greek and Hebrew are not necessary for knowing the truth. Jesus warns us against relying too heavily on fallible teachers by teaching us to only consider our Father in heaven as our Teacher (Matt 23:8). Paul even uses the term teachers sparingly but seemed to prefer terms like "guides" (1 Cor 4:15)

We can know the truth when we're born again because we have the Spirit of truth who guides us to all truth living in us. God is truth and when he lives in us and we live in him and on his words we'll know the truth.

John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.

2 John 1:2
because the truth lives in us and will be with us forever

1 John 2:4
If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth.

The test of if someone is living in the truth is based on whether they are obey the Lord with their lifestyle, because that's a sign the Holy Spirit is living in them.

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations.

If someone claims to be a teacher of the truth of God but unrepentantly launders money, covers up and makes excuses for the sexual violations of his son on his flock and defraud saints, this person is probably not living in the truth and therefore not being guided by the Holy Spirit.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What about come Hebrew or Greek scholars or experts outside of the Recovery?

I am afraid that even if she heard about them, they were not qualified well enough to get the "the revelation".

Originally Posted by awareness

Kangas was always an intellect. Trained at Princeton he was a man of the mind. I don't think he ever took "get out of your mind and turn to your spirit" as anything but a cliché.

As a result he could easily grasp sophisticated hermeneutics, such as Witness Lee's "God's Economy" and promulgate it/them.

I think so. Otherwise, I don't understand what makes him keep on chewing those boring and lifeless doctrines.

Originally Posted by bearbear

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Witness Lee rely on concordances and interlinears just like the rest of us Greek-less peons? Did he know Greek?

Somehow my wife thinks that he knew Hebrew and Greek. Or maybe she believes that brothers who translated the Bible (Recovery version) found proofs of WL's words in the Bible. I'll check it out.

Originally Posted by bearbear

If someone claims to be a teacher of the truth of God but unrepentantly launders money, covers up and makes excuses for the sexual violations of his son on his flock and defraud saints, this person is probably not living in the truth and therefore not being guided by the Holy Spirit.

Brother Bearbear, you've nailed it. But unfortunately, most of WL's followers have no idea about those facts. My wife has never heard about DayStar, and she believes that the sexual violations are fictitious and fabricated.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Terry

Excellent you are reading the Book of James. It served as a deliverance of sorts for me. Releasing me from many of the LC practices that had been ingrained in me since youth. I think in part that's why Psalms and James is not thought highly of in LSM circles. I would even include Proverbs and Malachi too.
These books in scripture expose the systemic practices LSM/LC rely on.

Thank you, brother Terry. And thanks to all brothers who recommended me to read the Book of James, Psalms, and Proverbs. I'd never have started doing it on my own.