How to help people whose friends and relatives are active members of the LC

Ohio · 01-31-2014, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

I've also written a recent article compiling my thoughts about why WNee/WLee's outer darkness cannot be for a thousand years, rather it's for eternity as almost all Christians believe it to be, with the concession that not everyone here agrees to my view:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...rnity-and.html

This was quoted from your blog referenced above ...

Quote:

The conversation would be as such:

"Congratulations! You've been raptured/resurrected!"
"Ah wait... you've been a bad Christian... Sorry. Have fun in solitary confinement for 1000 years!"
"You look nervous. Relax, you'll have plenty of time to recover from 1000 years of isolation induced mental insanity in the eternal New Jerusalem!"

Is this any way to expound the scriptures? You have made light of the most serious moment we will ever face. Facetious comments like yours here do little to alter the truth.

2 Cor. 5.10 "For we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be compensated for the things done in our body, according to what he has done, whether good or worthless."

Can you offer some proof that the "outer darkness" mentioned in Matt 25.30 is eternal, and that it is identical to the white throne judgment and the lake of fire mentioned in Revel. 20.11-15?

OBW · 01-31-2014, 08:11 AM

BB,

Ohio is right. You have simply told a story and substituted its conclusions as that of scripture. That is something both Nee and Lee did.

There is no clear definition as to what it is that happens to those who have things that are "worthless." Whether it is 1,000 years, or just something directly related to the nature of the worthlessness is not stated. But it is not simply heaven or hell.

Ohio,

In your next post you once again reference the "early Lee" era with the statement "many serious students of the scriptures came this way because Lee's teachings were confirmed by the word of God." But not all of his statements were confirmed.

In any case, who were the serious students of the scripture that came this way? Were they mostly those who rose in the early small localities, some of which are still around today, and some of which left? Those that left are evidence that they eventually saw through something. It might have even been some of the stuff that they thought was so attractive in the early years. For those that stayed, well, you get the idea. Not so sure that their discernment of what is scripturally sound is very good.

And Lee's lynch-pin work was The Economy of God, which was spoken in August through September, 1964. Its very opening is an effort in logical fallacy and rhetorical tricks to make something not said in scripture into this overarching thing that was eventually the reason that so many verses were rewritten or otherwise could not mean what they clearly meant.

In other words, early Lee may not have been the forefront of what was going on, but the errors that would plague the group in years to come were already there. We just couldn't see them because we were told that red was grey and yellow white. In the 60s. (Of course, I wasn't there then. And I don't think you were either, if I recall correctly.)

Ohio · 01-31-2014, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Ohio,

In your next post you once again reference the "early Lee" era with the statement "many serious students of the scriptures came this way because Lee's teachings were confirmed by the word of God." But not all of his statements were confirmed.

In any case, who were the serious students of the scripture that came this way? Were they mostly those who rose in the early small localities, some of which are still around today, and some of which left? Those that left are evidence that they eventually saw through something. It might have even been some of the stuff that they thought was so attractive in the early years. For those that stayed, well, you get the idea. Not so sure that their discernment of what is scripturally sound is very good.

Years ago I heard the testimonies of Phil Comfort, Chuck Debelek, John Ingalls, Bill Freeman, and others who spoke of this.

My impression of those that left who "eventually saw through something," was mostly that the leadership was hypocritical, and did not practice their own teachings. For example, Nee's book The Normal Christian Churchlife had merit, yet no one ever practiced it. Calling on the name of the Lord was valuable to some, but quickly deteriorated into vanity.

Remember that in his earlier days in the US, Lee passed on many riches from others, while in his later days, he developed those exclusive teachings of his own and Nee and Darby.

bearbear · 01-31-2014, 09:02 AM

Hey guys, I'll start a new thread on outer darkness and millennial exclusion. I don't want to pull another bearbear and blow up this thread

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ed=1#post30783

InChristAlone · 01-31-2014, 10:10 PM

This morning I tried to talk to my wife. I told her about Philip Lee, the clanging cymbals of "The Holy Word for Morning Revival", and the signs of denominational churches in the LC. She became defensive, ignored every argument, and even called me Satan. There was some kind of tension after our conversation. But thank God, it's ok now. BTW, when I told her that God had talked to me and opened my eyes, she said I sounded schizophrenic. The funny part is that in the LRC they always say, "Ask the Lord", "God talked to me", "I asked the Lord and He told me...", and she buys that 100%. But when I told her the same thing, she said we must beware of people who say that God talked to them. Looks like she believes God can talk to all brothers but her husband.

I expected more from our dialogue. However I believe it was not in vain. Tonight we will start reading Psalms.

UntoHim · 02-01-2014, 07:42 AM

InChristAlone,

First of all thanks for coming to the forum and putting yourself out here. It takes a lot of heart and fortitude, not to mention being a little quick on your feet to dodge all the bullets coming your way.

I can tell you from personal experience that it will not be very profitable to get into the subject of Phillip Lee with your wife. Same goes for the many business scams such as Daystar and Linko...it will just end up creating tension between you. God knows there are enough things that cause tension in a marriage without getting into things that happened in the Local Church 30 or 40 years ago!

You are on the right track by getting into the Word together. Psalms is as good as a place to start as any! Even if she wants to read the RV footnotes, just try to make the heart of your time together the actual scriptures themselves. Also I find that good, solid Christian hymns can be something that you both can enjoy together. Your moniker "InChristAlone" reminds me of a very good hymn that no Local Churcher could have a problem with. We sing this one all the time at my church.

http://www.gettymusic.com/hymns-inchristalone.aspx

bearbear · 02-01-2014, 08:00 AM

Wow that was really brave to pull out Philip Lee this quickly. UntoHim is right though, it may be best not to bring it up again until she is ready.

I had to slowly expose flaws in the local church system my wife herself was subconsciously aware of and slowly build that up to how it's damaged our family members. I also showed her verses in scripture which clearly state we're expected to have a heart for the poor and obvious things like that which Lee's ministry goes against.

After I felt she was ready, I had her read John So's testimony. She believed everything he said but still made excuses for what happened which was hard to believe for me. Don't underestimate what spending years in the LCs can do to build up mental walls in a person. Eventually, I had her read John Ingall's testimony and she was a little bit more open.

She ultimately chose to leave after I said I couldn't go on spiritually in the LC. Then we started going to different churches and she got to see for herself that there are other folks crazy or crazier for Jesus out there. Then she started realizing how much she was fooled into looking down on these Christians by the LC system. She also came to realize that the LCs are even more of a denomination than other churches, it's non-denominational in name only but in practice it's almost more hierarchical and centralized than even the Catholic church, not to bash Catholics because I've met some that love Jesus and know more bible than 99% of LCers.

An elder's wife from our locality severely reprimanded her for entertaining the thought of leaving. This of course backfired

Hallelujah! The whole time after we left, everyone from the LC tried to get my wife on their side after they realized I was deadset on leaving. But we wouldn't budge because we weren't willing to let go of our newfound freedom, however bad the consequences. I felt we were like the Israelites who were leaving the system of slavery in Egypt, though we lost all our comforts (friendships, relationships etc.), we chose to cherish our freedom more than the things we left behind (unlike most of the Israelites).

I'm thankful for the love and help the saints from the LC showed us during our time there and I wish I could find more ways to appreciate them. I still love the people, but man does it feel like they are enslaved by the system. I wish it could be the other way around sometimes where we are the ones bringing them out of the system and not them trying to bring us back into it.

InChristAlone · 02-02-2014, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

InChristAlone,

First of all thanks for coming to the forum and putting yourself out here. It takes a lot of heart and fortitude, not to mention being a little quick on your feet to dodge all the bullets coming your way.

I can tell you from personal experience that it will not be very profitable to get into the subject of Phillip Lee with your wife. Same goes for the many business scams such as Daystar and Linko...it will just end up creating tension between you. God knows there are enough things that cause tension in a marriage without getting into things that happened in the Local Church 30 or 40 years ago!

You are on the right track by getting into the Word together. Psalms is as good as a place to start as any! Even if she wants to read the RV footnotes, just try to make the heart of your time together the actual scriptures themselves. Also I find that good, solid Christian hymns can be something that you both can enjoy together. Your moniker "InChristAlone" reminds me of a very good hymn that no Local Churcher could have a problem with. We sing this one all the time at my church.

http://www.gettymusic.com/hymns-inchristalone.aspx

UntoHim, thank you for your kind words of encouragement. Special thanks for the link. I know this wonderful hymn. BTW, you were right. When I was choosing my moniker, I was inspired by a Christian song. It has the same title, In Christ Alone, but different tune and lyrics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtCghNUyBGc

"...My source of strength
My source of hope
Is Christ alone."

And here is Anthony Burger's brilliant piano version of this song:

http://www.amazon.com/In-Christ-Alone/dp/B001TOARPO

I think I share your personal experience now, too. It was not profitable to get into the subject of WN, Phillip Lee and Co. with my wife. Yesterday night I quarreled with her again. Usually, she is a lovely girl, but when I touched her comfort zone, she got irritated. So I ended up reading Psalms alone. From now on I've got to be more careful. I'll still do my part, but I will leave the main work to the Lord. We are going to read Psalms, Proverbs, and the Epistle of James every day.

01-31-2014, 08:11 AM	#2
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,384	Re: How to help people whose friends and relatives are active members of th BB, Ohio is right. You have simply told a story and substituted its conclusions as that of scripture. That is something both Nee and Lee did. There is no clear definition as to what it is that happens to those who have things that are "worthless." Whether it is 1,000 years, or just something directly related to the nature of the worthlessness is not stated. But it is not simply heaven or hell. Ohio, In your next post you once again reference the "early Lee" era with the statement "many serious students of the scriptures came this way because Lee's teachings were confirmed by the word of God." But not all of his statements were confirmed. In any case, who were the serious students of the scripture that came this way? Were they mostly those who rose in the early small localities, some of which are still around today, and some of which left? Those that left are evidence that they eventually saw through something. It might have even been some of the stuff that they thought was so attractive in the early years. For those that stayed, well, you get the idea. Not so sure that their discernment of what is scripturally sound is very good. And Lee's lynch-pin work was *The Economy of God*, which was spoken in August through September, 1964. Its very opening is an effort in logical fallacy and rhetorical tricks to make something not said in scripture into this overarching thing that was eventually the reason that so many verses were rewritten or otherwise could not mean what they clearly meant. In other words, early Lee may not have been the forefront of what was going on, but the errors that would plague the group in years to come were already there. We just couldn't see them because we were told that red was grey and yellow white. In the 60s. (Of course, I wasn't there then. And I don't think you were either, if I recall correctly.) __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

01-31-2014, 09:02 AM	#4
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 765	Re: How to help people whose friends and relatives are active members of th Hey guys, I'll start a new thread on outer darkness and millennial exclusion. I don't want to pull another bearbear and blow up this thread http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ed=1#post30783

01-31-2014, 10:10 PM	#5
InChristAlone Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 365	Re: How to help people whose friends and relatives are active members of th This morning I tried to talk to my wife. I told her about Philip Lee, the clanging cymbals of "The Holy Word for Morning Revival", and the signs of denominational churches in the LC. She became defensive, ignored every argument, and even called me Satan. There was some kind of tension after our conversation. But thank God, it's ok now. BTW, when I told her that God had talked to me and opened my eyes, she said I sounded schizophrenic. The funny part is that in the LRC they always say, "Ask the Lord", "God talked to me", "I asked the Lord and He told me...", and she buys that 100%. But when I told her the same thing, she said we must beware of people who say that God talked to them. Looks like she believes God can talk to all brothers but her husband. I expected more from our dialogue. However I believe it was not in vain. Tonight we will start reading Psalms. __________________ 1 Corinthians 13:4-8

02-01-2014, 07:42 AM	#6
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,827	Re: How to help people whose friends and relatives are active members of th InChristAlone, First of all thanks for coming to the forum and putting yourself out here. It takes a lot of heart and fortitude, not to mention being a little quick on your feet to dodge all the bullets coming your way. I can tell you from personal experience that it will not be very profitable to get into the subject of Phillip Lee with your wife. Same goes for the many business scams such as Daystar and Linko...it will just end up creating tension between you. God knows there are enough things that cause tension in a marriage without getting into things that happened in the Local Church 30 or 40 years ago! You are on the right track by getting into the Word together. Psalms is as good as a place to start as any! Even if she wants to read the RV footnotes, just try to make the heart of your time together the actual scriptures themselves. Also I find that good, solid Christian hymns can be something that you both can enjoy together. Your moniker "InChristAlone" reminds me of a very good hymn that no Local Churcher could have a problem with. We sing this one all the time at my church. http://www.gettymusic.com/hymns-inchristalone.aspx __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

02-01-2014, 08:00 AM	#7
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 765	Re: How to help people whose friends and relatives are active members of th Wow that was really brave to pull out Philip Lee this quickly. UntoHim is right though, it may be best not to bring it up again until she is ready. I had to slowly expose flaws in the local church system my wife herself was subconsciously aware of and slowly build that up to how it's damaged our family members. I also showed her verses in scripture which clearly state we're expected to have a heart for the poor and obvious things like that which Lee's ministry goes against. After I felt she was ready, I had her read John So's testimony. She believed everything he said but still made excuses for what happened which was hard to believe for me. Don't underestimate what spending years in the LCs can do to build up mental walls in a person. Eventually, I had her read John Ingall's testimony and she was a little bit more open. She ultimately chose to leave after I said I couldn't go on spiritually in the LC. Then we started going to different churches and she got to see for herself that there are other folks crazy or crazier for Jesus out there. Then she started realizing how much she was fooled into looking down on these Christians by the LC system. She also came to realize that the LCs are even more of a denomination than other churches, it's non-denominational in name only but in practice it's almost more hierarchical and centralized than even the Catholic church, not to bash Catholics because I've met some that love Jesus and know more bible than 99% of LCers. An elder's wife from our locality severely reprimanded her for entertaining the thought of leaving. This of course backfired Hallelujah! The whole time after we left, everyone from the LC tried to get my wife on their side after they realized I was deadset on leaving. But we wouldn't budge because we weren't willing to let go of our newfound freedom, however bad the consequences. I felt we were like the Israelites who were leaving the system of slavery in Egypt, though we lost all our comforts (friendships, relationships etc.), we chose to cherish our freedom more than the things we left behind (unlike most of the Israelites). I'm thankful for the love and help the saints from the LC showed us during our time there and I wish I could find more ways to appreciate them. I still love the people, but man does it feel like they are enslaved by the system. I wish it could be the other way around sometimes where we are the ones bringing them out of the system and not them trying to bring us back into it.