The LCS Factor

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm just going to jump in here and make an observation about the "some who do not qualify." Those in the LC who do not qualify, or, those who do not "worship the idol", do not remain. Or, should I say, cannot remain. How can anyone remain in the LC without worshipping the idol? Is that possible?

Nell

Yes, absolutely. There are many dear saints in the Local Churches (splinter groups) and the Living Stream Church who do not bow their knee to idols. Many of them don't have a clue that there is even such a thing as idolatry in the LSM Church. We cannot paint them all with a broad brush.

Can we draw a line in the sand and say that all who refuses to cross it are guilty of idolatry? In the Old Testament, yes. That’s the easy way. But not in the New. Such behavior does not reflect the heart of the true Shepherd.

It's easy to do a study of idolatry in the Bible and blast everyone with it. It's not easy to shepherd the Lord's sheep.

Roger

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Roger

Yes, absolutely. There are many dear saints in the Local Churches (splinter groups) and the Living Stream Church who do not bow their knee to idols. Many of them don't have a clue that there is even such a thing as idolatry in the LSM Church.

Roger

Ignorance alone does not exclude someone from idolatry.

What makes you think that there are many who do not bow their knee to idols? One of the reasons I ask this is because the OT shows us that there were only 7000 individuals who did not bow their knee to Baal in the Northern Kingdom at the time of Elijah. This was a very small number of the total residents in the Northern Kingdom. (Note: there are other reasons too).

Idolatry is not about completely abandoning God. It's about who you rely on. Do you really think there are many in the LC who are relying totally on God or have they been led astray to relying on the "Minister of the Age" and their membership in the "Recovery". In some cases, they are stuck their out of fear, but it is fear that they are leaving the "highest thing of God". We know that God is working all over the place and that this fear is not real. We know that the Lord is worthy and able to take care of each one of us, no matter what group we meet with, but many in the LC believe that they must remain anchored to the LC group for their protection. This is another implicit evidence of the presence of idolatry. I believe many are relying on the wrong thing and this has drawn them into a wrong relationship with God. They are required to revere Lee too highly for the sake of the ministry (aka Recovery) and this is idolatry.

This issue of reliance applies to me too, but not in a religious context. I don't exclude myself. I'm not better. I'm subject to the same issues and I have stumbled at times. Even when I do it ignorantly it does not provide an exclusion for me. A lot of Levitical law was setup to make provision for sins done in ignorance. God didn't make exclusions for sins done in ignorance. He made provision for them.

I do understand where you are coming from, but I think we should be clear on this issue. It's not for the purpose of beating up or condemnation. It's for the sake of light and hope.

Let's listen to Paul again on a few things... Let's see his mindset.

2Co 7:8-10
For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. (9) Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. (10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2Ti 2:25-26
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Sure, you can accuse me of lacking meekness here, but I don't think it will completely stick. After pausing for a few days, I have resumed my mode of making appeals on this matter. I am not condemning. I am putting important things on the table for close inspection. I am working to persuade by means of scripture and willing to accept that I may not have the best way to do it. If you can help, rather than just resist the idea of it, then please show me how to present it more meekly.

So far, I am seeing denial. It is denial that is partly based on a sincere belief that 'idolatry' does not apply at the level that I seem to be saying that it does. However, it is also denial that may be partly based on an unwillingness to acknowledge the underlying truth of the matter.

I'm not judging either way on this last point regarding the reasons that others don't think 'idolatry' is as prevalent. I do not know. However, I am going to continue to bring more scripture to bear on the subject and try to discuss it with everyone as things come up. I'm doing this for the sake of the truth and not for the sake of being right or wrong.

Matt

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

It's not about right and wrong it's about life!

[Peter Debelak]

I have been searching my heart, as well as my observational memory, in taking the assessment of idolatry in the LC seriously.

I must say I am conflicted in my conclusion. I want to say that I agree with Matt that "Idolatry is not about completely abandoning God. It's about who you rely on." I will say first, that I recognized this in the LC and have since struggled with this in other "mainstream" groups. I have continually wrestled with it internally as well as in what I have observed in those around me - both in the LC and in other groups. This definition of idolatry catches us all in its net. And I think rightly so. I think this was the spirit of Christ's speaking in Matthew 5, to ensure that none of us felt we could live up to the law simply because its terms were so black-and-white.

Idolatry seems to me to be one of the most insidious of the sins which the law speaks to. If you look at all the other commandments, its pretty obvious that we've violated them if we get pinned down on our actions. Idolatry, however, is not so clear to us. Why? Because, it seems, that idolizing something is so often done in the service of our "faith". We do it because we think it is what we should do. We perceive our faith to be "better" because of the presence of the idol (though we don't recognize it as such).

Each and every one of us (with LC backgrounds or not), should be in a constant struggle to guard against the enticing of idols - because it is so easy for something other than God to become that thing we rely on and turn to. This matter should convict us all.

But this broad definition of idolatry, it seems to me, is not exactly what's being discussed here. Because, in the LC, there was a much clearer potential idol than the subtle type ones which entice every Christian every day: Witness Lee and "the ministry." Even "the recovery."

So it is not the weak claim being made here - i.e. that every Christian, including those in the LC, allow subtle idols into their hearts, which replace their reliance on God. Rather, it is the strong claim being made her, it seems, that everyone in the LC made Witness Lee and "the ministry" their "idol" - which they placed higher, in a conscious and systematic way, than God.

In regards to this strong claim, my conclusion is mixed. I can say that I saw much more of this type behavior when I lived in Southern California. And I can't remember much if any of this sort of behavior growing up in Cleveland. Admittedly, I lived in Cleveland primarily as a young person and thus am not as experientially knowledgable to speak with authority on this. But it also did not characterize all of the saints in So. Cal.

I was not raised on "Truth Lessons" etc... in Cleveland And I was not raised on Witness Lee. The bible studies we had in high school were Word-centered, and we were specifically instructed not to consult the footnotes in the process of our study. The leading ones recognized that we were getting "killed" with "truth" (read: ministry) in the SSOT - which was coined the "summer school of death." The re-focus of those summer schools was to center on the person of Jesus in our lives and hearts.

The first two years I lived in Anaheim, there were a number of college age kids living in Anaheim and not in school - just working. They weren't on a campus, part of the FTTA "work." Many of these kids had grown up in the LC - some had even grown up in LSM, and still others were even kids of BBs. We all started gathering together on a regular but informal basis. We dove into the Word. We were aware of and concerned with everything in one-another's lives - including "non-spiritual" matters. Some of us were re-finding our faith. Some had never really lost it, nor had they every really been serious about it. We loved one another and cared for the spiritual and human growth of one antoher - and we weren't sure there was a distinction. We were rough around the edges, but falling in love with Christ. I remember specific and very lengthy discussion on the "primacy of Witness Lee" and the uniqueness of "the recovery" etc... There was no insistence among us. In fact, I think the mutual understanding among us, as articulated by one son of an LSM editor was that: "The recovery is a way, not the way."

Now, we weren't separated from the "church in Anaheim" nor the "So. Cal young people's work". We met with Anaheim (some more than others) and attended all the college Mountain Retreat conferences at Big Bear (since we were the only "group" that weren't at the conferences as representing a campus work, we called ourselves "the University of Anaheim" :-)). Many helped work on Grace Gardens or worked part time in LSM. There were some that believed Witness Lee's particular ministry was unique, but it rarely, if ever, manifested in a way that curtailed mutual care and/or rigorous study of the Word itself.

Yet even in this context, what characterized our interactions was not "the ministry" or Witness Lee - but a struggle to find Christ as our center. Not by the process of "eating" and ingesting, but in concrete ways in our lives. So many of us were broken and freshly awakened to our Savior. We wanted to live together with the Lord in all we did - not just in "spiritual" matters. And we cared for one another in this way as well.

This is just a snippet of my experience - in the GLA as well as in Anaheim among those in my generation (I'm 30 years old). There is much more. I offer these experiences to be somewhat of a counter-point to the claim of idolatry. And it is definately presented as a counter-point to Nell's question: "How can anyone remain in the LC without worshipping the idol? Is that possible?"

That said, eventually our little "lively group" in Anaheim became more well-known and was looked at as a "positive example." Once it was recognized as such, we started having full-timers and more "shepherds" at our meetings. I think a few FTTA folks were actually designated to meet with us. Without commenting on why, I lost a taste for meeting formally at that point - though many of us still continued to care for one another in non-meeting settings as we had been doing.

To be clear, there is no denial here of the presence of idols and the subversion of our reliance on God alone. I have repented of this and I have noted it's existence even in systematic form in the LC. But I want to offer these experiences for the sake of a full picture and making sure the "gray" doesn't turn "black" when it shouldn't.

Thanks for indulging.

Peter

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

I have been searching my heart, as well as my observational memory, in taking the assessment of idolatry in the LC seriously.

...

To be clear, there is no denial here of the presence of idols and the subversion of our reliance on God alone. I have repented of this and I have noted it's existence even in systematic form in the LC. But I want to offer these experiences for the sake of a full picture and making sure the "gray" doesn't turn "black" when it shouldn't.

Peter,

As usual, you state your case well. I understand what you are saying.


Generally, it seems, however, that one could make the case that restricting someone's liberty in Christ can be seen a kind of forced idolatry. Once someone says "Obey me rather than your own conscience," then he is effectively saying, "You should view me as above your conception of God."

Of course, like most things this can be taken to extremes, as when your child pleads "God told me to eat the last donut."

[Thankful Jane]

Dear Roger,

I hear where you are coming from somewhat. You seemed to be concerned about current LCers and how this topic fits them or how they would receive it. You view the strength of this discussion as blasting everyone. I personally don’t think that is what is happening here, though I understand your concern.

Clearly the topic of idolatry is not something with which to blast current LCers. I’m in agreement with you on this. Maybe you are concerned about LCers who are coming here and reading this discussion? If so, I would say that is beyond our control. It's their choice to be here.

This is a complex topic and it is made more complicated by our various reactions to it. (We all have feelings about this based on our own situations.) I don't know if this will help anyone or not, but I am trying to be more objective about the topic (trying, I said..). I am looking at it from four sides:

1) the truth – what is idolatry as shown by God in the Bible

2) its application to me – how does it apply to me in the present and how did it apply in the past?

3) its application to the LC system as a whole- what characteristics of the LC system are clearly idolatrous

4) its application to others I care about – how can I use this understanding to help others I love that are in bondage find freedom?

If I tangle these 4 up in my head, it becomes difficult to discuss. For now, I'm spending most of my time looking at 1-3.

I'm trying to keep my feelings about the topic in check! (again I said trying .... )

Thankful Jane

[Hope]

Dear Posters,

Since this is the discussion about Spiritual Abuse and has been filled with many charges, I would like to introduce a few key passages for consideration.

I asked the following question regarding sharing issues that counterbalanced pure spiritual abuse, “By the way does it cut both ways? I have been accused of trying to shut people down. But then, is anyone trying to shut down any positive evidence or positive experience while in the local church at …

A poster replied,

"No, I don't think it cuts both ways on this thread. We reacted to talk about positive things because it is inappropriate on this thread. For example, no matter how good a family is or how many positive things there are about it, when child molestation is discovered, it is not appropriate for family members to want to somehow balance that bad by pointing out the good things about the family.

Child molestation, wow!!!

In parallel thinking, it also would seem that one bad family is enough to label the whole bunch. Therefore should all memory of anything of Christ be obliterated? Could it be that the use of such explosive language as “child molestation” would have the effect of wiping out any testimony that was there? Could it be that contending that four churches with all their elders present was for the purpose of completely discrediting all leadership and all churches in the Texas area?

I have not failed to point out flaws in Witness Lee, the local churches, the Living Stream Ministry and the Blended Brothers. If I continue to write my history, more will be forth coming. But here is a warning from the Old Testament for out consideration. Jerusalem was defeated because of their idolatry and unfaithfulness. Jeremiah prophesied that it would happen but when it did he wept over the city and the people. On the other hand, the nation of Edom gloated and wanted to destroy it to its foundation and eliminate all memory of Jerusalem. God’s judgment of His people is for their restoration not for their utter destruction. Note in the following passage that Babylon went too far in carrying out the Lord’s judgment on Jerusalem.

Psalms 137:7-9, Remember, O LORD, against the sons of Edom the day of Jerusalem, who said, "Raze it, raze it, to its very foundation." O daughter of Babylon, you devastated one, how blessed will be the one who repays you with the recompense with which you have repaid us. How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock.

Lam 4:21-22, Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, who dwells in the land of Uz; but the cup will come around to you as well, you will become drunk and make yourself naked. The punishment of your iniquity has been completed, O daughter of Zion; He will exile you no longer. But He will punish your iniquity, O daughter of Edom; He will expose your sins!

Ezek 25:12-14, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because Edom has acted against the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and has incurred grievous guilt, and avenged themselves upon them," therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "I will also stretch out My hand against Edom and cut off man and beast from it. And I will lay it waste; from Teman even to Dedan they will fall by the sword. "And I will lay My vengeance on Edom by the hand of My people Israel. Therefore, they will act in Edom according to My anger and according to My wrath; thus they will know My vengeance," declares the Lord GOD.

Obad. 10-14, "Because of violence to your brother Jacob,You will be covered with shame, and you will be cut off forever. On the day that you stood aloof, on the day that strangers carried off his wealth,And foreigners entered his gate And cast lots for Jerusalem — You too were as one of them. Do not gloat over your brother's day, the day of his misfortune. And do not rejoice over the sons of Judah In the day of their destruction; Yes, do not boast In the day of their distress. "Do not enter the gate of My people in the day of their disaster. Yes, you, do not gloat over their calamity in the day of their disaster. And do not loot their wealth in the day of their disaster. And do not stand at the fork of the road to cut down their fugitives; and do not imprison their survivors in the day of their distress. “

We all should have some Godly fear. Yes, it does cut both ways.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[SpeakersCorner]

Excellent point and corresponding verses, Hope.


SC

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Hope

A poster replied,

"No, I don't think it cuts both ways on this thread. We reacted to talk about positive things because it is inappropriate on this thread. For example, no matter how good a family is or how many positive things there are about it, when child molestation is discovered, it is not appropriate for family members to want to somehow balance that bad by pointing out the good things about the family.

Child molestation, wow!!!

I disagree with the poster in blue above.

There is nothing wrong with trying to balance a point by injecting something positive.

There is something wrong with trying to avoid a point by injecting something positive.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Hope

Could it be that the use of such explosive language as “child molestation” would have the effect of wiping out any testimony that was there? Could it be that contending that four churches with all their elders present was for the purpose of completely discrediting all leadership and all churches in the Texas area?

Dear Hope,

Are you suggesting that this was the motivation behind what I wrote?

Thankful Jane

[Thankful Jane]

Concerning how this topic applied to me in the past, I asked myself, “Was I ever in idolatry while I was in the LC?” A few years ago, I might have answered, “No,” but after spending more time in the Bible considering what idolatry is and the evidences of it, I now have to say, “Yes. I was an idolater.” Here are the reasons:

1. I was terribly afraid that I would offend God if I left the LC. I was controlled by my loyalty to the vision of the LC and WL’s ministry—a false belief controlled my behavior and bound me there (evidence of idolatry). If I had been serving the Lord alone, His love would have cast out fear and I would have had the freedom to stay or go as I chose.

2. I preferred leavened words over the Word of God (evidence of idolatry). I let Lee’s words govern my whole thought about the Bible. Every where I read I could only see it through his template (the line of life, the line of building, etc.) I had given up reading it to see what it said on its own. I believed I couldn't get anymore from it than what Lee saw. I was dependent on his interpretation. “What did Brother Lee say about this?” Whatever he said I believed, even if the Bible seemed to say differently....(after all sisters could not get revelation.) (Eventually I heard that only the apostle could get revelation, but I had left by then.) I put Lee’s leavened words in a higher place than God’s pure Word. The Bible tells me to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, not leavened words out of the mouth of others. I was not eating unleavened bread, as the Bible tells me to do (the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth).

3. I fully/absolutely submitted to leaders who convinced me they were God’s deputy authorities (evidence of being in an idolatrous system). I didn’t need to ask God because he would say the same thing as the leaders. I believed it was wrong to follow God as an individual. I needed to follow the Body and listen to the members.

4. As for how I spent my time, which shows what I loved first, the LC meetings and service got top priority (evidence of idolatry). My family was sacrificed. My husband’s and children’s needs came after the needs of the church. This was clearly in violation of the Word. I have a vivid memory of thinking one night that the Lord wanted me to stay home with my children and miss the meeting. However, instead of hearing His voice (“the words I speak to you”), I applied one of Lee’s speakings of his leavened teachings about not loving my children more than the church and dismissed this speakng as my “self” and went to the meeting. Both of my children suffered longterm effects of my longterm neglect (sacrificing children is evidence of idolatry).

All of these are clear evidences of my idolatry while in the LC. I am happy to report that after a long period of treatment with some pretty intense rehabilitative therapy by the great physician, I am doing well.

1) I have no more fear and am free to choose to follow the Lord wherever He leads.
2) I love the pure word of the Bible above all else.
3) I only have one Master and His name is Jesus.
4) My children have forgiven me and been able to find healing from the Lord and are walking with him today. I can never make up for the time I stole from them as children, but I’m trying. Concerning the harm done to my children by my idolatry, this was the hardest area. It has required a thorough repentance to them (not just “I’m sorry,” but a complete acknowledgement of my sin against them and turnaround in my behavior).

Idolatry and its resultant bondage is a big deal.

It's a big deal to God: He wants a walk with us as free individuals.

It's a big deal to the devil: It's his M.O. He doesn’t want us to understand how he works secretly among God’s people to snare them and bring them into bondage to him by mixing in his things with the things of God. He will not give up that ground without a fight.

It’s now also a really big deal to me: I have seen in my own life that when idols are smashed, God begins to show Himself mighty to save and set captives free.

I think I may need to put a reminder on my calendar to have a regular complete spiritual checkup with Dr. Jesus, requesting Him to run special diagnostic tests in the idols in my heart department. He’s the great spiritual cardiologist before whose eyes all things are naked and opened. I may not see my heart's diseases, but He does and is able to save me to the uttermost.

Thankful Jane

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Nell

How can anyone remain in the LC without worshipping the idol? Is that possible?

Roger's answer was an unqualified "yes". I still say "no" because, Roger, you didn't say how they remain and still follow the program. Peter has come up with the only possibility I can think of.

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

...That said, eventually our little "lively group" in Anaheim became more well-known and was looked at as a "positive example." Once it was recognized as such, we started having full-timers and more "shepherds" at our meetings. I think a few FTTA folks were actually designated to meet with us. Without commenting on why, I lost a taste for meeting formally at that point - though many of us still continued to care for one another in non-meeting settings as we had been doing. ...

Peter,

You changed the parameters of the program!

If I read you correctly, you all were having a good time until the FTTA shepherds came along. Then you "lost a taste for meeting 'formally'" and "continued to care for one another in non-meeting settings...". So you changed the standard operating procedure.

When the FTTA shepherds came in and began replacing the leading of the Holy Spirit, you turned from this idol and began to fly under the radar. Is that accurate?

I'll rephrase: How can you remain in the LC without worshipping the idol unless you change the SOP? I'll concede that this may be possible.

Nell

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Nell

Roger's answer was an unqualified "yes". I still say "no" because, Roger, you didn't say how they remain and still follow the program. Peter has come up with the only possibility I can think of.



Peter,

You changed the parameters of the program!

If I read you correctly, you all were having a good time until the FTTA shepherds came along. Then you "lost a taste for meeting 'formally'" and "continued to care for one another in non-meeting settings...". So you changed the standard operating procedure.

When the FTTA shepherds came in and began replacing the leading of the Holy Spirit, you turned from this idol and began to fly under the radar. Is that accurate?

I'll rephrase: How can you remain in the LC without worshipping the idol unless you change the SOP? I'll concede that this may be possible.

Nell

Nell:

Yes, we did change the parameters. But we didn't leave (at least not then, and there are many who still haven't). We found a way to seek Christ first, even while fully connected and in the LC, even if not governed by LC norms and system.

And I am hestitant to say that when the full-timers or others came in to shepherd, they replaced the Holy Spirit. Their motives were undoubtedly out of love and nurturing. But there was something so subtlely present that I felt took away the freshness and purity of just seeking Christ in His word.

In fact, at the time, I was upset. Bitter. I made a lot of the strong claims about idolatry. In the subsequent years, As I met less and less in any formal way, I made many pronouncements (to myself and others) concerning what I saw as a subtle usurpation of individual accountability to the Lord and a subtle demotion of Christ alone.

Believe me, I am not denying these things. I have just come full cycle in some respects. I believe there are some, perhaps many, when are "in" the system, but don't operate based on it. They are exposed to Witness Lee, appreciate Witness Lee, but do not rely on Witness Lee instead of God. I do believe these were "the rest" who did not worship Baal, despite being in a group of folks who did.

I can't say that I had a lot of the experience that Jane describes in her recollection of her idolatry, at least not at the time I was in the LC. From the time I returned to the Lord, I was vigalent not to hand over my accountability to others, vigalent to follow my conscience (even though I often faultered) and vigalent ot study the Word itself.

However, after I stopped meeting, there was a lot of fear, such as Jane describes:

"I was terribly afraid that I would offend God if I left the LC. I was controlled by my loyalty to the vision of the LC and WL’s ministry—a false belief controlled my behavior and bound me there (evidence of idolatry). If I had been serving the Lord alone, His love would have cast out fear and I would have had the freedom to stay or go as I chose."

I guess I was not afraid to leave - since I didn't go back and forth about leaving - but I was fearful once I already left. I did not see the truth of deputy authority in the Word. I was clear about that. But I also had the ingrained thought in my head that sometimes there are some things you submit to whether you understand them or not. I feared that I had violated God's government. But the thing was, the Lord never made it clear to me that I had. I could not see it in the Word and He did not convict me of this. Eventually, I had to rebuke Satan for his lies. If I had apparently done something so aggregious - had asked and plead with the Lord to reveal it to me in His word and in my heart - and I still couldn't see it - then my fears were unhealthy and lies.

Well, I've carried on again. I have to learn to be more cogent. SC, and tips on concise writing?

Peter

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Well, I've carried on again. I have to learn to be more cogent. SC, and tips on concise writing?

Peter,

Here's how I do it. I write till I'm done then go back and cut out all the stupid stuff, all the offensive stuff, and all the dumb illustrations and ponderous metaphors. That cuts out about 80%.

This post, to illustrate, was originally 5,000 words in length.


SC

[OBW]

I think we are beginning to get somewhere. From what I’ve been reading, few, if any, have said that idolatry does not exist, or is not applicable just as it has been mentioned. But it is like one of those ailments that doctors, with a lot of tests, can determine to actually be one of a shopping list of actual diagnoses but until those tests are run and the ultimate diagnosis is made, has some generic name. The generic name is not unimportant, but it is not always as helpful as you would presume. I believe that colitis is one of those. It describes the overall effect of the actual illness, but does not help arrive at a cure. Determination of the actual illness is required.

Similarly, idolatry is a general term. That does not mean that it is meaningless. In its purest form, it speaks clearly of a willful act of giving worship to another god, or more accurately, a god that is not a true god, and is not God. There is really no alternative way to deal with this. The idolater is worshipping another god. But in the broader sense, it sweeps in a host of separate offenses that result from our hearts being drawn to other things. But those offenses stand on their own without also being clearly or even obliquely identified as idolatry.

When we willfully sin, we have clearly turned our hearts from God. That is, by definition, lowering God’s status in our hearts. So in the broader sense of the term, every sin involves idolatry. So, if every sin is idolatry, why isn’t every call for repentance put in terms of turning from idolatry? A few put it in the mix in relation to certain things, but not as an umbrella under which all sins could be found.

How many in the LC qualify as “the rest” and are not engaged in idol worship (in the narrow sense of idolizing Lee)? Probably a lot. Maybe most of the rank and file. There are many who have followed a way and teachings because they did not recognize the talented orator (even in a less familiar language) as he turned “do” into “do not,” and “do not” into “do;” result into cause, and cause into result; descriptions into prescriptions; righteousness into an unnecessary thing. They do not do it because they adore Lee. They do it because his speaking leads to the conclusion he wants, and they cannot decipher the difference.

“People don't drink the sand because they're thirsty. They drink the sand because they don't know the difference.” While that line from a movie (that will remain unnamed) is talking about a very different subject, it is appropriate to this discussion. Many in the LC have not decided to drink sand because they have decided it is better than water. They are drinking sand because they have been convinced that it is water. They believe the rhetoric that what they follow is truly God’s heart. They accept that there will be problems along the way. They know that there is an enemy. They continue to stand for what they have come to believe God wants. You need to attack the core of the beliefs. Attack it as apologetics. Attack it as bad fruit. Put 12 baskets full in front of them.

This thread started as an opportunity to demonstrate the baskets full of bad fruit. To look at the things that were done wrong that lead to that bad fruit. But we have turned to labels. And by turning to those labels, we have put the whole problem effectively on the leadership and not on the individual. Why? Because it is quite difficult to say that every LC member who has had a child end out in serious sin, or who failed in marriage, was guilty of idolatry unless you broaden the term to such an extent that you and I get swept in right now in our current conditions.

Sometimes labels are relevant. But not necessarily helpful. When you attack everything as idolatry, the ears will shut. It is a waste of time. You may feel better because it now has a direct link to the original 10. But we have missed the real points. The real error.

An unfortunately, we cannot lay all of the failures of the LC second generation at the feet of Lee, the BBs, the local elders, or the LC. Even where you can make a case, there is more to it than the LC. This broad brush does not increase the responsibility of the LC and its teachings in the errors of the children. It is what it is and discovering some link to idolatry did not solve anything. It merely added a potential second cause for each already existing error.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

... When you attack everything as idolatry, the ears will shut. ...

There have been 7,956 views on this thread! That means 15,912 ears. No ears shut here!

It looks like the ears have it!

Nell

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

There have been 7,956 views on this thread! That means 15,912 ears. No ears shut here!

It looks like the ears have it!

Not a very relevant comparison. You first have to consider that everyone that posted here has probably viewed more times than they posted. And those that are viewing are often the same ones coming back day after day to see where it is going. The thread has been active for about 16 days. I know I came back in to see it multiple times on some days. While not necessarily a good assumption, if everyone viewed it once each day, then there are only 497 separate people. Now there are 23 that I quickly counted as contributing to this thread. Many of these viewed 2 or more times on many days. The number of separate persons shrinks.

I’m not discounting that people see the words. I’m not even discounting the significance of the actual number of people who have observed, whether it was in the earliest days when we were discussing the bad fruit, or subsequently when we began trying to prove through faulty logic that Don was full of wind and beer, or after that was shown to be a fallacy, when the idolatry thing came up.

But what gets through the gatekeeper of the mind is not identified by “hits” on a thread. The hits have been on this thread because for a few days it virtually took over the activity of the part of the 23 that were actually posting. The rest of the forum went silent. So if you were someone who occasionally came to this forum to see what was going on, the only significant activity is here, so you looked. What did you see? A few people broad-brushing the entirety of the LC as idolatrous and saying that was the reason that any of the second generation of the LC was less than perfect. Even if there was some basis for a charge of idolatry in some circumstances, by getting out a large crew with spray paint guns to cover the whole of LC existence even the legitimate cases get ignored as they laugh their way back to “afaithfulword.org.”

The point is not how many see the words. It is the number that will have ears to hear. And if what we are saying is too obtuse, they won't even consider them as worthy of "hearing." This particular rabbit trail has wasted the energies of several very good resources in the efforts to make meaningful dialog concerning the LC that might have a hope of making a difference. You are among that group. Very good discussions could be engaged concerning the various writings of Nigel or others that keep putting weight of evidence after weight of evidence that there is something systemically wrong with the LC. Or engage in one of the Apologetics discussions where Lee’s teachings are stacked up against scripture.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

Not a very relevant comparison.

It wasn't meant to be a relevant comparison. It was a joke. Don't you think the visual of 15,912 ears is kinda' funny?

The point is not how many see the words. It is the number that will have ears to hear. And if what we are saying is too obtuse, they won't even consider them as worthy of "hearing." This particular rabbit trail has wasted the energies of several very good resources in the efforts to make meaningful dialog concerning the LC that might have a hope of making a difference. You are among that group. Very good discussions could be engaged concerning the various writings of Nigel or others that keep putting weight of evidence after weight of evidence that there is something systemically wrong with the LC. Or engage in one of the Apologetics discussions where Lee’s teachings are stacked up against scripture.

Mike,

If we want to discuss idolatry in the LC on this forum, what is that to you? If you choose not to join the discussion, that is your liberty. If there is no interest in a topic, it will drop to the bottom never to be seen again. That hasn't happened on this thread. Let those of us who are posting and/or viewing be persuaded by Him as to whether we come or go. That's not your job.

There are plenty of threads, and those who are interested will find what they want to read. Let them. If some are interested in this thread, so be it.

You're trying to censor what others read by shutting down this discussion. The LC leadership censors what their membership reads. What's the difference? There is no heirarchy on this forum. Be at peace, Mike, and let Him do his job. He is able.

Nell

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by OBW

This thread started as an opportunity to demonstrate the baskets full of bad fruit. To look at the things that were done wrong that lead to that bad fruit. But we have turned to labels. And by turning to those labels, we have put the whole problem effectively on the leadership and not on the individual. Why? Because it is quite difficult to say that every LC member who has had a child end out in serious sin, or who failed in marriage, was guilty of idolatry unless you broaden the term to such an extent that you and I get swept in right now in our current conditions.

OBW, I think you are starting to get the point. What you said in the bolded sentence is exactly what God portrays in the Word. We are going one step beyond the general applicability of idolatry to everyone and pointing towards a system of idolatry that was constructed and implemented that has brought quite a few into a unique and painful form of bondage to a stronger form of idolatry.

In fact, let me summarize it this way. The entire Northern Kingdom of Israel was so steeped in idolatry that the Lord says this:

Hos 4:15-19
Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Beth-aven, nor swear, The LORD liveth. (16) For Israel slideth back as a backsliding heifer: now the LORD will feed them as a lamb in a large place. (17) Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone. (18) Their drink is sour: they have committed whoredom continually: her rulers with shame do love, Give ye. (19) The wind hath bound her up in her wings, and they shall be ashamed because of their sacrifices.

Note: "Israel" here is only the Northern Kingdom and "Ephraim" is synonomous with Israel in this context with an additional pointer towards the responsible leadership of the Northern Kingdom. "Judah" is the Southern Kingdom. Judah was not a great deal better off, but they were preserved for the sake of the Lord and His servant David.

The Northern Kingdom has a special applicability to us and so my use of them as the typological example is in line with the intent and substance of the Word.

If you will notice in my posts, I've painted myself into the picture of idolatry and not out of it. Why? Because God painted me into it.

I don't condemn myself, nor do I condemn others, but I do condemn my own idolatry. Thank God that He is merciful and full of lovingkindness for me!

Matt

P.S. I have a more thorough response to Hope. His verses have introduced a logical error from a typological point of view. His warning is valid, but only under some key assumptions about the context which I will point out (probably this evening).

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Matt

OBW, I think you are starting to get the point. What you said in the bolded sentence is exactly what God portrays in the Word. We are going one step beyond the general applicability of idolatry to everyone and pointing towards a system of idolatry that was constructed and implemented that has brought quite a few into a unique and painful form of bondage to a stronger form of idolatry.

And you completely missed the point.

At this point, other than to look back at my most recent post (to Nell), there is not much left to say except "whatever." This is a witch hunt. Some claim of finding an underlying thread of idolatry is nothing short of a witch hunt. The verse you quoted says nothing to support the current efforts. If anything, it would seem to be an effort to take the misdeeds of some who may have honestly been involved in idolatry and paint everyone else with it.

And if you say you have painted yourself into it, then why worry about the LC? You've got more important things to deal with than worrying about the LC's idolatry if you have it yourself. Starting a bonfire for them does not reduce your sin.

Don't misunderstand. I am not saying you are sinning. But if the level of idolatry that we have to move down to is so broad that we all are included, then why point a finger at anyone else? There has to be some less general definition at which we stop. Once we return toward the basic standard, then it cannot simply be broadcast onto everyone in the LC. Stick with one definition for all purposes. Otherwise it is equivocation.

As I told Nell, you are wasting your very worthwhile energies on this thread, at least as it is currently headed. You have not been a participant anywhere else lately. This discussion is taking on more heat from the rest of us "outsiders" than it is from the LC faithful, not that many of them actually participate here. It looks as if about three or four people are determined to have this hearing despite almost everyone else calling it into question. Doesn't that say something?

[Peter Debelak]

I agree with the concern expressed here over defining the scope of the definition of idolatry. As I mentioned in a previous post, there can be a weak claim and a strong claim of idolatry as it pertained to the LC - and its imporant to be clear about which claim is being made here (so far, it has gone back and forth):

Idolatry seems to me to be one of the most insidious of the sins which the law speaks to. If you look at all the other commandments, its pretty obvious that we've violated them if we get pinned down on our actions. Idolatry, however, is not so clear to us. Why? Because, it seems, that idolizing something is so often done in the service of our "faith". We do it because we think it is what we should do. We perceive our faith to be "better" because of the presence of the idol (though we don't recognize it as such).

Each and every one of us (with LC backgrounds or not), should be in a constant struggle to guard against the enticing of idols - because it is so easy for something other than God to become that thing we rely on and turn to. This matter should convict us all.

But this broad definition of idolatry, it seems to me, is not exactly what's being discussed here. Because, in the LC, there was a much clearer potential idol than the subtle type ones which entice every Christian every day: Witness Lee and "the ministry." Even "the recovery."

So it is not the weak claim being made here - i.e. that every Christian, including those in the LC, allow subtle idols into their hearts, which replace their reliance on God. Rather, it is the strong claim being made her, it seems, that everyone in the LC made Witness Lee and "the ministry" their "idol" - which they placed higher, in a conscious and systematic way, than God.

I think both the strong and weak claim are important to pursue, but it should be clear in each discussion which claim is being made - it can otherwise lead to confusion and unnecessary defensiveness.

Peter

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Matt

Ignorance alone does not exclude someone from idolatry.

Then the whole Christian world is guilty of idolatry. Do you believe in Christmas Matt? I am not assuming you do, but if you do, there are certainly many Christians who would be willing to go "toe-to-toe" with you, and prove that you engage in idolatry. And...they would probably do a better job than you have done on the Local Church idolatry thing. But, if it's not Christmas, then it will be something. The only people that I know who are totally clear on this subject are the JW's...oh wait, I forgot about their idol, The Watchtower Society.

What makes you think that there are many who do not bow their knee to idols? One of the reasons I ask this is because the OT shows us that there were only 7000 individuals who did not bow their knee to Baal in the Northern Kingdom at the time of Elijah. This was a very small number of the total residents in the Northern Kingdom. (Note: there are other reasons too).

Well, perhaps your "many" is different from my "many." I would say that 7000 is nothing to snuff at, considering the Lord is willing to leave the 99 to go and find 1.

Idolatry is not about completely abandoning God. It's about who you rely on. Do you really think there are many in the LC who are relying totally on God or have they been led astray to relying on the "Minister of the Age" and their membership in the "Recovery". In some cases, they are stuck their out of fear, but it is fear that they are leaving the "highest thing of God". We know that God is working all over the place and that this fear is not real. We know that the Lord is worthy and able to take care of each one of us, no matter what group we meet with, but many in the LC believe that they must remain anchored to the LC group for their protection. This is another implicit evidence of the presence of idolatry. I believe many are relying on the wrong thing and this has drawn them into a wrong relationship with God. They are required to revere Lee too highly for the sake of the ministry (aka Recovery) and this is idolatry.

Matt, do you think that Madame Guyon was an idolator? Do you think that Brother Lawrence was an idolator? And, have you come to the point of total reliance upon God?

So far, I am seeing denial. It is denial that is partly based on a sincere belief that 'idolatry' does not apply at the level that I seem to be saying that it does. However, it is also denial that may be partly based on an unwillingness to acknowledge the underlying truth of the matter.

I'm so sorry that all you are seeing denial. If so, then you are terribly in need of enlightenment. Check my posts. I didn't deny that that there is idolatry in the Living Stream Church.

Matt, nobody is trying to stop you from doing anything. Nobody CAN stop you from doing anything. I've stated my last on the subject. Please carry on.

Roger

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt

Idolatry is not about completely abandoning God. It's about who you rely on. Do you really think there are many in the LC who are relying totally on God?

In all of Christianity today, do you really think there are many who are relying totally on God?