The LCS Factor

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Matt

What about Thyatira? Each church has differing conditions and differing judgments.

So, the question is which one is more applicable to the LC? Thyatira or Pergamos? Or is it one of the others?

It's not a relevant challenge to what is being said if you aren't going to lay claim to one of them being the actual condition of the LC. Do you think the LC was Thyatira? If so, why?

If you are speaking in the hypothetical and saying that it is possible to have a church condition that doesn't apply to everyone in the church and which God does not hold all responsible, then sure I agree with this. It appears that this is not the case in Pergamos.

So, which shoe best fits for the LC? It's quite possible for there to be multiple shoes that fit to some degree, but what's the best fit?

Matt

Matt,

My last post must have been at the same time as yours. So you have now answered my question.

My point concerning Thyatira is that within an idol-worshipping church there are some who do not qualify. (I don't interpret the LC as Thyatira; I agree with Nee on Thyatira being the Roman church.) I can't recall your original wording, but I do know you said virtually everyone in the LC was guilty of idolatry. Right?

As for Pergamos not having any exceptions, I disagree. "You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality." You "have people there" indicates clearly it was not a monolithic situation.

What say you?


SC

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Matt,

My last post must have been at the same time as yours. So you have now answered my question.

My point concerning Thyatira is that within an idol-worshipping church there are some who do not qualify. (I don't interpret the LC as Thyatira; I agree with Nee on Thyatira being the Roman church.) I can't recall your original wording, but I do know you said virtually everyone in the LC was guilty of idolatry. Right?

As for Pergamos not having any exceptions, I disagree. "You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality." You "have people there" indicates clearly it was not a monolithic situation.

What say you?

SC

It's impossible to have 100% of people in any group 'lording it over' others. So, you need some subjects to be subjected to those who will act as 'lord'.

Balak = one who lays waste/destroyer
Balaam = devourer
Nicolaitan = to conquer the people

doctrines of Balaam in the hands of Balak + doctrines of Nicolaitans = Bad combination for which we see much evidence in the LC.

It is important to note that the responsibility in Pergamos appears to point to everyone. God tells them all to repent. Not just some. Those who acted as 'lord' and those who were willing to submit to this improper authority and receive the food sacrificed to these idols. It was to their destruction that they partook.

Think HWMR. It is the "processed" spiritual food handed out as a replacement to the Word of God which is the manna that God intended for us.

Matt

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Matt

It's impossible to have 100% of people in any group 'lording it over' others. So, you need some subjects to be subjected to those who will act as 'lord'.

The responsibility appears to point to everyone. Those who acted as 'lord' and those who were willing to submit to this improper authority and receive the food sacrificed to these idols. (Think HWMR. It is the "processed" spiritual food handed out as a replacement to the Word of God which is the manna that God intended for us).

Matt

Matt,

I'm not sure what you're saying here. It sounds like you're saying if you read things like HWMR, you're guilty of idolatry. I'm not buying that one bit.

I have read many Catholic works (well, some) and received some real benefit. Most everyone I know has read and even quote St. Francis of Assisi's prayer: "Lord, give me the strength to change what I can, give me the strength to resist what I cannot change and give me the wisdom to understand the difference between the two." Good stuff, right? Well, this is the same guy who, "claimed to have had a mystical experience in the Church of San Damiano just outside of Assisi, in which the Icon of Christ Crucified came alive and said to him three times, "Francis, Francis, go and repair My house which, as you can see, is falling into ruins"." [Wikipedia]

Does that make all of us who have read and even appreciated him idolators?


SC

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Matt,

I'm not sure what you're saying here. It sounds like you're saying if you read things like HWMR, you're guilty of idolatry. I'm not buying that one bit.

SC

SC,

We all know that HWMR is not optional in an LSM driven LC. It is the very source used for each Lord's table meetings. The last meeting I went to was just like this. Everyone had their HWMR's out and shared primarily from it. Many people didn't even have a Bible with them.

I'm not talking about individual free-will reading of christian materials. I'm talking about systematically replacing God's Word with something like HWMR and providing it as the primary source of spiritual nourishment even at the Lord's table.

One more elemental point: Think about how hard it has been for the Midwest to set some distance between itself and the LSM. It's been atrociously difficult and the "destroyer" has worked hard to keep the Midwest under the "lordship" of the "lord" which controls the LSM/LC. The Midwest didn't quietly leave. It's been a huge fight. Why? What's all the fuss? Those who "lord" it over others don't like to give up control. This is object evidence of the deeds of the Nicolaitans. Furthermore, there is objective evidence of the doctrine of the Nicolaitans being fully brought to bear. Spiritual Authority which is the root of Deputy Authority laid the groundwork for Lee to establish "lordship" over many people, but people had to commit themselves to it. There are examples of those who left early on. They saw what was wrong. T.A. Sparks spoke clearly in the form of admonition and warning about the coming "lordship" in 1957.

Matt

P.S. If you want to be strict in your interpretation of the OT based on what Paul says in 1 Cor 10 and follow through on that (which I think Lee did at one point) then you could say that God wants you to eat the heavenly manna He provides as the only source of spiritual nourishment. Currently, I'm not going that far. From God's point of view, I'd say it like this. Isn't God's Word good enough for you? Why do you want other meat?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

...My point concerning Thyatira is that within an idol-worshipping church there are some who do not qualify. ... I can't recall your original wording, but I do know you said virtually everyone in the LC was guilty of idolatry. Right? SC

I'm just going to jump in here and make an observation about the "some who do not qualify." Those in the LC who do not qualify, or, those who do not "worship the idol", do not remain. Or, should I say, cannot remain. How can anyone remain in the LC without worshipping the idol? Is that possible?

Nell

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Matt

What I did not use to understand, but makes sense to me now is that idolatry is about wrong relationship. We talk about the need for right relationship with God which is good. God asks us to be in right relationship to Him and our 'neighbors'. When we get into improper relationship to Him and our neighbors because we want (lesser form of greed) something that God hasn't given us then we start getting out of sorts with the Lord.

Concerning right relationship with God, commandment #1 says "I am the Lord your God .... you shall have no other Gods before Me." This is the antithesis of idolatry. This commandment is addressed to the individuals who collectively made up the children of Israel. The ten commandments (the old covenant) looked out for the highest good of each person, addressing matters important to each one and to their relationships with God and one another. The commandments were to be obeyed by individual people. Each person was accountable for their sins and all the various offerings were set up for individuals who sinned. I think there is only one mention of some kind of offering for the whole congregation but that was only for when every person in the whole congregation had sinned.

Matt once told me that he learned studying Western Civilization history that the Hebrew people were responsible for the introduction of the thought that the individual was valuable and of prime importance to God. They were also credited with the idea of personal responsibility. These were unheard of thoughts before the ten commandments were given. The Hebrew thought actually elevated the worth of man. Because God had such intimate concern for each individual, man saw himself in a new light. (Matt, maybe you could quote some of this you read me before.) Furthermore, the Hebrew God set His people free from bondage. He would not have His people in servitude to other nations and other gods. He brought them out of Egypt, from a house of bondage and gave them a moral will with a law that allowed them to choose to obey it and He promised to reward them accordingly. It was important to Him that they be free to serve Him. (Let my people go that they may serve me.) The value of the individual was at the center of God's view of His people.

As believers each of us are called to be in a new covenant relationship with God which is a very personal and intimate. We are each called to freedom and charged to remain in freedom so we can serve him without fear.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.

The new covenant is between God and every person who believes the gospel. For us to think of the Body of Christ as some kind of entity that can exist apart from individual people in direct, unhindered relationship with God is simply wrong. The Body of Christ is made up of individuals who have been set free from bondage and have freely chosen to be in relationship with God. Because of this they can be in godly relationships with one another.

For a Christian to submit to any kind of control that competes with Jesus being his/her one Lord and Master is the same as entering into bondage and servitude to other gods. Each person in the body of Christ is called to stand in the liberty they have been given in Christ. (Jerusalem which is above is free and is the mother of us all.)

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters [i.e., not a collective reference but a reference to individuals], saith the Lord Almighty.

The Christian walk is not about Jesus and me alone on an island somewhere (though it could be if that is what he wanted), but it is about Jesus being first as my Lord and Master, with no intermediary in between me and Him. The real experience of the body of Christ is dependent upon you and me each knowing Jesus as the one Lord and master of our individual lives.

This is the battle point for the devil. He hates this. We can play church all day long and talk body life talk until the cows come home, and the devil will just smile. We can try and produce some kind of collective unity by men exercising hierarchical authority, and the devil will smile even more. What wipes the smile off of his face is each individual finding and experiencing their own new covenant relationship with Jesus.

Can Texas culture with rugged individualists be given credit for making strong individual believers? (If it could, then the believers in Texas in the mid 60s would not have snapped their heels and started saluting Lee and becoming his lieutenants.) Only Jesus can make us each stand up strong in Him. He is in the business of doing just that. That is how he builds His church. Just read Eph. 4: " ... for the perfecting of the saints" [individuals]. The job of the gifted ones is to perfect each individual saint's walk with Christ; it is not to directly produce a collective building. It is not to act in the place of God and rule over God's people claiming to represent God to them.

Why does God hate idolatry (serving other gods)? Because it hinders individual people from being in right relationship with Him. It introduces another master and damages our individual walks with Christ. We cannot serve two masters. If we are serving another god, we are not serving Him.

Thankful Jane

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm just going to jump in here and make an observation about the "some who do not qualify." Those in the LC who do not qualify, or, those who do not "worship the idol", do not remain. Or, should I say, cannot remain. How can anyone remain in the LC without worshipping the idol? Is that possible?

Nell

Yes, absolutely. There are many dear saints in the Local Churches (splinter groups) and the Living Stream Church who do not bow their knee to idols. Many of them don't have a clue that there is even such a thing as idolatry in the LSM Church. We cannot paint them all with a broad brush.

Can we draw a line in the sand and say that all who refuses to cross it are guilty of idolatry? In the Old Testament, yes. That’s the easy way. But not in the New. Such behavior does not reflect the heart of the true Shepherd.

It's easy to do a study of idolatry in the Bible and blast everyone with it. It's not easy to shepherd the Lord's sheep.

Roger

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Roger

Yes, absolutely. There are many dear saints in the Local Churches (splinter groups) and the Living Stream Church who do not bow their knee to idols. Many of them don't have a clue that there is even such a thing as idolatry in the LSM Church.

Roger

Ignorance alone does not exclude someone from idolatry.

What makes you think that there are many who do not bow their knee to idols? One of the reasons I ask this is because the OT shows us that there were only 7000 individuals who did not bow their knee to Baal in the Northern Kingdom at the time of Elijah. This was a very small number of the total residents in the Northern Kingdom. (Note: there are other reasons too).

Idolatry is not about completely abandoning God. It's about who you rely on. Do you really think there are many in the LC who are relying totally on God or have they been led astray to relying on the "Minister of the Age" and their membership in the "Recovery". In some cases, they are stuck their out of fear, but it is fear that they are leaving the "highest thing of God". We know that God is working all over the place and that this fear is not real. We know that the Lord is worthy and able to take care of each one of us, no matter what group we meet with, but many in the LC believe that they must remain anchored to the LC group for their protection. This is another implicit evidence of the presence of idolatry. I believe many are relying on the wrong thing and this has drawn them into a wrong relationship with God. They are required to revere Lee too highly for the sake of the ministry (aka Recovery) and this is idolatry.

This issue of reliance applies to me too, but not in a religious context. I don't exclude myself. I'm not better. I'm subject to the same issues and I have stumbled at times. Even when I do it ignorantly it does not provide an exclusion for me. A lot of Levitical law was setup to make provision for sins done in ignorance. God didn't make exclusions for sins done in ignorance. He made provision for them.

I do understand where you are coming from, but I think we should be clear on this issue. It's not for the purpose of beating up or condemnation. It's for the sake of light and hope.

Let's listen to Paul again on a few things... Let's see his mindset.

2Co 7:8-10
For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. (9) Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. (10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2Ti 2:25-26
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Sure, you can accuse me of lacking meekness here, but I don't think it will completely stick. After pausing for a few days, I have resumed my mode of making appeals on this matter. I am not condemning. I am putting important things on the table for close inspection. I am working to persuade by means of scripture and willing to accept that I may not have the best way to do it. If you can help, rather than just resist the idea of it, then please show me how to present it more meekly.

So far, I am seeing denial. It is denial that is partly based on a sincere belief that 'idolatry' does not apply at the level that I seem to be saying that it does. However, it is also denial that may be partly based on an unwillingness to acknowledge the underlying truth of the matter.

I'm not judging either way on this last point regarding the reasons that others don't think 'idolatry' is as prevalent. I do not know. However, I am going to continue to bring more scripture to bear on the subject and try to discuss it with everyone as things come up. I'm doing this for the sake of the truth and not for the sake of being right or wrong.

Matt

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

It's not about right and wrong it's about life!

[Peter Debelak]

I have been searching my heart, as well as my observational memory, in taking the assessment of idolatry in the LC seriously.

I must say I am conflicted in my conclusion. I want to say that I agree with Matt that "Idolatry is not about completely abandoning God. It's about who you rely on." I will say first, that I recognized this in the LC and have since struggled with this in other "mainstream" groups. I have continually wrestled with it internally as well as in what I have observed in those around me - both in the LC and in other groups. This definition of idolatry catches us all in its net. And I think rightly so. I think this was the spirit of Christ's speaking in Matthew 5, to ensure that none of us felt we could live up to the law simply because its terms were so black-and-white.

Idolatry seems to me to be one of the most insidious of the sins which the law speaks to. If you look at all the other commandments, its pretty obvious that we've violated them if we get pinned down on our actions. Idolatry, however, is not so clear to us. Why? Because, it seems, that idolizing something is so often done in the service of our "faith". We do it because we think it is what we should do. We perceive our faith to be "better" because of the presence of the idol (though we don't recognize it as such).

Each and every one of us (with LC backgrounds or not), should be in a constant struggle to guard against the enticing of idols - because it is so easy for something other than God to become that thing we rely on and turn to. This matter should convict us all.

But this broad definition of idolatry, it seems to me, is not exactly what's being discussed here. Because, in the LC, there was a much clearer potential idol than the subtle type ones which entice every Christian every day: Witness Lee and "the ministry." Even "the recovery."

So it is not the weak claim being made here - i.e. that every Christian, including those in the LC, allow subtle idols into their hearts, which replace their reliance on God. Rather, it is the strong claim being made her, it seems, that everyone in the LC made Witness Lee and "the ministry" their "idol" - which they placed higher, in a conscious and systematic way, than God.

In regards to this strong claim, my conclusion is mixed. I can say that I saw much more of this type behavior when I lived in Southern California. And I can't remember much if any of this sort of behavior growing up in Cleveland. Admittedly, I lived in Cleveland primarily as a young person and thus am not as experientially knowledgable to speak with authority on this. But it also did not characterize all of the saints in So. Cal.

I was not raised on "Truth Lessons" etc... in Cleveland And I was not raised on Witness Lee. The bible studies we had in high school were Word-centered, and we were specifically instructed not to consult the footnotes in the process of our study. The leading ones recognized that we were getting "killed" with "truth" (read: ministry) in the SSOT - which was coined the "summer school of death." The re-focus of those summer schools was to center on the person of Jesus in our lives and hearts.

The first two years I lived in Anaheim, there were a number of college age kids living in Anaheim and not in school - just working. They weren't on a campus, part of the FTTA "work." Many of these kids had grown up in the LC - some had even grown up in LSM, and still others were even kids of BBs. We all started gathering together on a regular but informal basis. We dove into the Word. We were aware of and concerned with everything in one-another's lives - including "non-spiritual" matters. Some of us were re-finding our faith. Some had never really lost it, nor had they every really been serious about it. We loved one another and cared for the spiritual and human growth of one antoher - and we weren't sure there was a distinction. We were rough around the edges, but falling in love with Christ. I remember specific and very lengthy discussion on the "primacy of Witness Lee" and the uniqueness of "the recovery" etc... There was no insistence among us. In fact, I think the mutual understanding among us, as articulated by one son of an LSM editor was that: "The recovery is a way, not the way."

Now, we weren't separated from the "church in Anaheim" nor the "So. Cal young people's work". We met with Anaheim (some more than others) and attended all the college Mountain Retreat conferences at Big Bear (since we were the only "group" that weren't at the conferences as representing a campus work, we called ourselves "the University of Anaheim" :-)). Many helped work on Grace Gardens or worked part time in LSM. There were some that believed Witness Lee's particular ministry was unique, but it rarely, if ever, manifested in a way that curtailed mutual care and/or rigorous study of the Word itself.

Yet even in this context, what characterized our interactions was not "the ministry" or Witness Lee - but a struggle to find Christ as our center. Not by the process of "eating" and ingesting, but in concrete ways in our lives. So many of us were broken and freshly awakened to our Savior. We wanted to live together with the Lord in all we did - not just in "spiritual" matters. And we cared for one another in this way as well.

This is just a snippet of my experience - in the GLA as well as in Anaheim among those in my generation (I'm 30 years old). There is much more. I offer these experiences to be somewhat of a counter-point to the claim of idolatry. And it is definately presented as a counter-point to Nell's question: "How can anyone remain in the LC without worshipping the idol? Is that possible?"

That said, eventually our little "lively group" in Anaheim became more well-known and was looked at as a "positive example." Once it was recognized as such, we started having full-timers and more "shepherds" at our meetings. I think a few FTTA folks were actually designated to meet with us. Without commenting on why, I lost a taste for meeting formally at that point - though many of us still continued to care for one another in non-meeting settings as we had been doing.

To be clear, there is no denial here of the presence of idols and the subversion of our reliance on God alone. I have repented of this and I have noted it's existence even in systematic form in the LC. But I want to offer these experiences for the sake of a full picture and making sure the "gray" doesn't turn "black" when it shouldn't.

Thanks for indulging.

Peter

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

I have been searching my heart, as well as my observational memory, in taking the assessment of idolatry in the LC seriously.

...

To be clear, there is no denial here of the presence of idols and the subversion of our reliance on God alone. I have repented of this and I have noted it's existence even in systematic form in the LC. But I want to offer these experiences for the sake of a full picture and making sure the "gray" doesn't turn "black" when it shouldn't.

Peter,

As usual, you state your case well. I understand what you are saying.


Generally, it seems, however, that one could make the case that restricting someone's liberty in Christ can be seen a kind of forced idolatry. Once someone says "Obey me rather than your own conscience," then he is effectively saying, "You should view me as above your conception of God."

Of course, like most things this can be taken to extremes, as when your child pleads "God told me to eat the last donut."

[Thankful Jane]

Dear Roger,

I hear where you are coming from somewhat. You seemed to be concerned about current LCers and how this topic fits them or how they would receive it. You view the strength of this discussion as blasting everyone. I personally don’t think that is what is happening here, though I understand your concern.

Clearly the topic of idolatry is not something with which to blast current LCers. I’m in agreement with you on this. Maybe you are concerned about LCers who are coming here and reading this discussion? If so, I would say that is beyond our control. It's their choice to be here.

This is a complex topic and it is made more complicated by our various reactions to it. (We all have feelings about this based on our own situations.) I don't know if this will help anyone or not, but I am trying to be more objective about the topic (trying, I said..). I am looking at it from four sides:

1) the truth – what is idolatry as shown by God in the Bible

2) its application to me – how does it apply to me in the present and how did it apply in the past?

3) its application to the LC system as a whole- what characteristics of the LC system are clearly idolatrous

4) its application to others I care about – how can I use this understanding to help others I love that are in bondage find freedom?

If I tangle these 4 up in my head, it becomes difficult to discuss. For now, I'm spending most of my time looking at 1-3.

I'm trying to keep my feelings about the topic in check! (again I said trying .... )

Thankful Jane

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Nell

How can anyone remain in the LC without worshipping the idol? Is that possible?

Roger's answer was an unqualified "yes". I still say "no" because, Roger, you didn't say how they remain and still follow the program. Peter has come up with the only possibility I can think of.

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

...That said, eventually our little "lively group" in Anaheim became more well-known and was looked at as a "positive example." Once it was recognized as such, we started having full-timers and more "shepherds" at our meetings. I think a few FTTA folks were actually designated to meet with us. Without commenting on why, I lost a taste for meeting formally at that point - though many of us still continued to care for one another in non-meeting settings as we had been doing. ...

Peter,

You changed the parameters of the program!

If I read you correctly, you all were having a good time until the FTTA shepherds came along. Then you "lost a taste for meeting 'formally'" and "continued to care for one another in non-meeting settings...". So you changed the standard operating procedure.

When the FTTA shepherds came in and began replacing the leading of the Holy Spirit, you turned from this idol and began to fly under the radar. Is that accurate?

I'll rephrase: How can you remain in the LC without worshipping the idol unless you change the SOP? I'll concede that this may be possible.

Nell

[OBW]

I think we are beginning to get somewhere. From what I’ve been reading, few, if any, have said that idolatry does not exist, or is not applicable just as it has been mentioned. But it is like one of those ailments that doctors, with a lot of tests, can determine to actually be one of a shopping list of actual diagnoses but until those tests are run and the ultimate diagnosis is made, has some generic name. The generic name is not unimportant, but it is not always as helpful as you would presume. I believe that colitis is one of those. It describes the overall effect of the actual illness, but does not help arrive at a cure. Determination of the actual illness is required.

Similarly, idolatry is a general term. That does not mean that it is meaningless. In its purest form, it speaks clearly of a willful act of giving worship to another god, or more accurately, a god that is not a true god, and is not God. There is really no alternative way to deal with this. The idolater is worshipping another god. But in the broader sense, it sweeps in a host of separate offenses that result from our hearts being drawn to other things. But those offenses stand on their own without also being clearly or even obliquely identified as idolatry.

When we willfully sin, we have clearly turned our hearts from God. That is, by definition, lowering God’s status in our hearts. So in the broader sense of the term, every sin involves idolatry. So, if every sin is idolatry, why isn’t every call for repentance put in terms of turning from idolatry? A few put it in the mix in relation to certain things, but not as an umbrella under which all sins could be found.

How many in the LC qualify as “the rest” and are not engaged in idol worship (in the narrow sense of idolizing Lee)? Probably a lot. Maybe most of the rank and file. There are many who have followed a way and teachings because they did not recognize the talented orator (even in a less familiar language) as he turned “do” into “do not,” and “do not” into “do;” result into cause, and cause into result; descriptions into prescriptions; righteousness into an unnecessary thing. They do not do it because they adore Lee. They do it because his speaking leads to the conclusion he wants, and they cannot decipher the difference.

“People don't drink the sand because they're thirsty. They drink the sand because they don't know the difference.” While that line from a movie (that will remain unnamed) is talking about a very different subject, it is appropriate to this discussion. Many in the LC have not decided to drink sand because they have decided it is better than water. They are drinking sand because they have been convinced that it is water. They believe the rhetoric that what they follow is truly God’s heart. They accept that there will be problems along the way. They know that there is an enemy. They continue to stand for what they have come to believe God wants. You need to attack the core of the beliefs. Attack it as apologetics. Attack it as bad fruit. Put 12 baskets full in front of them.

This thread started as an opportunity to demonstrate the baskets full of bad fruit. To look at the things that were done wrong that lead to that bad fruit. But we have turned to labels. And by turning to those labels, we have put the whole problem effectively on the leadership and not on the individual. Why? Because it is quite difficult to say that every LC member who has had a child end out in serious sin, or who failed in marriage, was guilty of idolatry unless you broaden the term to such an extent that you and I get swept in right now in our current conditions.

Sometimes labels are relevant. But not necessarily helpful. When you attack everything as idolatry, the ears will shut. It is a waste of time. You may feel better because it now has a direct link to the original 10. But we have missed the real points. The real error.

An unfortunately, we cannot lay all of the failures of the LC second generation at the feet of Lee, the BBs, the local elders, or the LC. Even where you can make a case, there is more to it than the LC. This broad brush does not increase the responsibility of the LC and its teachings in the errors of the children. It is what it is and discovering some link to idolatry did not solve anything. It merely added a potential second cause for each already existing error.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

... When you attack everything as idolatry, the ears will shut. ...

There have been 7,956 views on this thread! That means 15,912 ears. No ears shut here!

It looks like the ears have it!

Nell

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by OBW

This thread started as an opportunity to demonstrate the baskets full of bad fruit. To look at the things that were done wrong that lead to that bad fruit. But we have turned to labels. And by turning to those labels, we have put the whole problem effectively on the leadership and not on the individual. Why? Because it is quite difficult to say that every LC member who has had a child end out in serious sin, or who failed in marriage, was guilty of idolatry unless you broaden the term to such an extent that you and I get swept in right now in our current conditions.

OBW, I think you are starting to get the point. What you said in the bolded sentence is exactly what God portrays in the Word. We are going one step beyond the general applicability of idolatry to everyone and pointing towards a system of idolatry that was constructed and implemented that has brought quite a few into a unique and painful form of bondage to a stronger form of idolatry.

In fact, let me summarize it this way. The entire Northern Kingdom of Israel was so steeped in idolatry that the Lord says this:

Hos 4:15-19
Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Beth-aven, nor swear, The LORD liveth. (16) For Israel slideth back as a backsliding heifer: now the LORD will feed them as a lamb in a large place. (17) Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone. (18) Their drink is sour: they have committed whoredom continually: her rulers with shame do love, Give ye. (19) The wind hath bound her up in her wings, and they shall be ashamed because of their sacrifices.

Note: "Israel" here is only the Northern Kingdom and "Ephraim" is synonomous with Israel in this context with an additional pointer towards the responsible leadership of the Northern Kingdom. "Judah" is the Southern Kingdom. Judah was not a great deal better off, but they were preserved for the sake of the Lord and His servant David.

The Northern Kingdom has a special applicability to us and so my use of them as the typological example is in line with the intent and substance of the Word.

If you will notice in my posts, I've painted myself into the picture of idolatry and not out of it. Why? Because God painted me into it.

I don't condemn myself, nor do I condemn others, but I do condemn my own idolatry. Thank God that He is merciful and full of lovingkindness for me!

Matt

P.S. I have a more thorough response to Hope. His verses have introduced a logical error from a typological point of view. His warning is valid, but only under some key assumptions about the context which I will point out (probably this evening).

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Matt

Ignorance alone does not exclude someone from idolatry.

Then the whole Christian world is guilty of idolatry. Do you believe in Christmas Matt? I am not assuming you do, but if you do, there are certainly many Christians who would be willing to go "toe-to-toe" with you, and prove that you engage in idolatry. And...they would probably do a better job than you have done on the Local Church idolatry thing. But, if it's not Christmas, then it will be something. The only people that I know who are totally clear on this subject are the JW's...oh wait, I forgot about their idol, The Watchtower Society.

What makes you think that there are many who do not bow their knee to idols? One of the reasons I ask this is because the OT shows us that there were only 7000 individuals who did not bow their knee to Baal in the Northern Kingdom at the time of Elijah. This was a very small number of the total residents in the Northern Kingdom. (Note: there are other reasons too).

Well, perhaps your "many" is different from my "many." I would say that 7000 is nothing to snuff at, considering the Lord is willing to leave the 99 to go and find 1.

Idolatry is not about completely abandoning God. It's about who you rely on. Do you really think there are many in the LC who are relying totally on God or have they been led astray to relying on the "Minister of the Age" and their membership in the "Recovery". In some cases, they are stuck their out of fear, but it is fear that they are leaving the "highest thing of God". We know that God is working all over the place and that this fear is not real. We know that the Lord is worthy and able to take care of each one of us, no matter what group we meet with, but many in the LC believe that they must remain anchored to the LC group for their protection. This is another implicit evidence of the presence of idolatry. I believe many are relying on the wrong thing and this has drawn them into a wrong relationship with God. They are required to revere Lee too highly for the sake of the ministry (aka Recovery) and this is idolatry.

Matt, do you think that Madame Guyon was an idolator? Do you think that Brother Lawrence was an idolator? And, have you come to the point of total reliance upon God?

So far, I am seeing denial. It is denial that is partly based on a sincere belief that 'idolatry' does not apply at the level that I seem to be saying that it does. However, it is also denial that may be partly based on an unwillingness to acknowledge the underlying truth of the matter.

I'm so sorry that all you are seeing denial. If so, then you are terribly in need of enlightenment. Check my posts. I didn't deny that that there is idolatry in the Living Stream Church.

Matt, nobody is trying to stop you from doing anything. Nobody CAN stop you from doing anything. I've stated my last on the subject. Please carry on.

Roger

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt

Idolatry is not about completely abandoning God. It's about who you rely on. Do you really think there are many in the LC who are relying totally on God?

In all of Christianity today, do you really think there are many who are relying totally on God?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm just going to jump in here and make an observation about the "some who do not qualify." Those in the LC who do not qualify, or, those who do not "worship the idol", do not remain. Or, should I say, cannot remain. How can anyone remain in the LC without worshipping the idol? Is that possible?

Nell

Yes, it is possible.