The ground on which the church should be built

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

However, as to the "lies" spread about Max I am not aware of what he meant by that in your conversation with him.

Oh please. The lies told by Lee and company are that Max and his wife both were staging a coup d'etat to wrest control of the Recovery. They were both leaders of a rebellion to topple the ministry of WL.

Are you trying to say that you never heard this Cassidy? You really expect me to believe that? The whole Recovery heard this repeatedly for years after it happened. The real tragedy is that we never got to hear both sides of the story.

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Oh please. The lies told by Lee and company are that Max and his wife both were staging a coup d'etat to wrest control of the Recovery. They were both leaders of a rebellion to topple the ministry of WL.

Are you trying to say that you never heard this Cassidy? You really expect me to believe that? The whole Recovery heard this repeatedly for years after it happened. The real tragedy is that we never got to hear both sides of the story.

Well then Ohio, what exactly did Max confess to at Thankful Jane's dinner table?

Was this eyewitness account one of those lies?: " One of the SoCal young people who was part of Max's entourage to bring us "brother Lee's burden," gave this testimony. "I was traveling across the country enjoying the Lord, until I came to Ohio, and then something started to stink." This was offered as added proof in the meeting that we were not "in the flow," and had somehow deviated from WL's leading because of TC."

This incident was not a lie and it was indicative of the problem with Max. Something had to be done about it and was.

Now you are arguing on Max's behalf? Makes no sense.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Well then Ohio, what exactly did Max confess to at Thankful Jane's dinner table?

Was this eyewitness account one of those lies?: " One of the SoCal young people who was part of Max's entourage to bring us "brother Lee's burden," gave this testimony. "I was traveling across the country enjoying the Lord, until I came to Ohio, and then something started to stink." This was offered as added proof in the meeting that we were not "in the flow," and had somehow deviated from WL's leading because of TC."

This incident was not a lie and it was indicative of the problem with Max. Something had to be done about it and was.

Now you are arguing on Max's behalf? Makes no sense.

What makes no sense is that WL would castigate Max as being rebellious and trying to establish his own little kingdom based on someone in his group giving this testimony. While at the same time allowing PL to continue molesting sisters as the Business manager of the LSM. That seems to be a scale with uneven weights.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Was this eyewitness account one of those lies?: " One of the SoCal young people who was part of Max's entourage to bring us "brother Lee's burden," gave this testimony. "I was traveling across the country enjoying the Lord, until I came to Ohio, and then something started to stink." This was offered as added proof in the meeting that we were not "in the flow," and had somehow deviated from WL's leading because of TC."

Cassidy, that was no "eye witness" account of any thing. That was pure delusion. How in the world does one leave Indiana (or Kentucky) and enter the state of Ohio, and the whole place "stinks" because all the folks back home spread rumors that TC and the GLA were "out of the flow?" Do you really believe that TC stunk up the whole state of Ohio? And that the stink stopped at the borders.

C'mon man! You thought that was an eye-witness account? That was utter nonsense. Shame on Lee and company for all the damages they caused to so many young children of God! When all these youth finally woke up from their WL-induced stupor, they exited the nearest door. Then Lee had to blame someone for that too. So he used Max. How convenient.

Cassidy, why are you not willing to admit that Lee disseminated and proliferated ridiculous rumors about TC because he was perceived to be a threst to his leadership. The blendeds all got this message, but it seems like these things never got explained to you. Don't you understand what Whistler was all about? Do you still think TC got the boot for wanting clean sheets and playing electric guitars?

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Cassidy, that was no "eye witness" account of any thing. That was pure delusion. How in the world does one leave Indiana (or Kentucky) and enter the state of Ohio, and the whole place "stinks" because all the folks back home spread rumors that TC and the GLA were "out of the flow?" Do you really believe that TC stunk up the whole state of Ohio? And that the stink stopped at the borders.

C'mon man! You thought that was an eye-witness account? That was utter nonsense. Shame on Lee and company for all the damages they caused to so many young children of God! When all these youth finally woke up from their WL-induced stupor, they exited the nearest door. Then Lee had to blame someone for that too. So he used Max. How convenient.

Cassidy, why are you not willing to admit that Lee disseminated and proliferated ridiculous rumors about TC because he was perceived to be a threst to his leadership. The blendeds all got this message, but it seems like these things never got explained to you. Don't you understand what Whistler was all about? Do you still think TC got the boot for wanting clean sheets and playing electric guitars?

Ohio, stop putting words in my mouth. I don't care if you agree with me but I do care if you twist my words. It is not befitting a brother.

So knock it off.

The eye-witness account is that you heard a testimony. Now either that "SoCal brother" incident happened or it did not. Of course it did. Understand?

Now it was for those very kind of behaviors that Max was relieved of duties. It's simple. The complaints started flowing in . Your elaborate conspiracy theories are fanciful. It had nothing to do with PL. You are a decade off if you think that. Sorry friend, everything does not fit nicely into your "bad bad WL theory of everything".

You are over-complicating and contradicting yourself in the process. I won't give you the rope to hang yourself. I care for you too much.

Let the reader decide. No further explanation is required.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Ohio, stop putting words in my mouth. I don't care if you agree with me but I do care if you twist my words. It is not befitting a brother.

So knock it off.

The eye-witness account is that you heard a testimony. Now either that "SoCal brother" incident happened or it did not. Of course it did. Understand?

Now it was for those very kind of behaviors that Max was relieved of duties. It's simple. The complaints started flowing in . Your elaborate conspiracy theories are fanciful. It had nothing to do with PL. You are a decade off if you think that. Sorry friend, everything does not fit nicely into your "bad bad WL theory of everything".

You are over-complicating and contradicting yourself in the process. I won't give you the rope to hang yourself. I care for you too much.

Let the reader decide. No further explanation is required.

Do you understand that Max confronted WL about PL in the late 70s? This event took place at the same time as the sister's rebellion and preceded the case with JI by a number of years.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Ohio, stop putting words in my mouth. I don't care if you agree with me but I do care if you twist my words. It is not befitting a brother.

So knock it off.

The eye-witness account is that you heard a testimony. Now either that "SoCal brother" incident happened or it did not. Of course it did. Understand?

Now it was for those very kind of behaviors that Max was relieved of duties. It's simple. The complaints started flowing in . Your elaborate conspiracy theories are fanciful. It had nothing to do with PL. You are a decade off if you think that. Sorry friend, everything does not fit nicely into your "bad bad WL theory of everything".

You are over-complicating and contradicting yourself in the process. I won't give you the rope to hang yourself. I care for you too much.

Let the reader decide. No further explanation is required.

Amen! Let the reader decide!

What words did I put in your mouth? You tried to twist my post about a ridiculous testimony into an eyewitness account that exonerated Lee.

I caught you playing games with me, and you tell me to "knock it off" and get a rope and hang myself.

Thankful Jane gave an account of her sit down conversation with the Rapoports to support what I have posted. You obviously are unaccustomed to actual facts, so now you say my fanciful accounts are elaborate conspiracy theories.

Go back and read. Get your facts straight. Oh that's right you have no facts. You only have what Lee told you.

[Ohio]

During this recent exchange with Cassidy, his underlying premise has been that Max came to the GLA and caused trouble, and so WL deservedly removed him from leadership. For a quarter century I also believed this version of events, that Max was a loose cannon which had to be reeled in. That's what we all saw on the surface. We never knew what happened behind the scenes in Anaheim. That information was withheld from us.

But who gave Max the authority and the direction to do what he did during those chaotic times? When all was said and done, Lee basically washed his hands as though he knew nothing at all. All this time he was merely sitting at home reading his Bible.

When Pilate spoke to the Lord, he brought up the matter of authority. Jesus let him know that his authority was given to him from above. When Max came to the GLA with his burden to pry the young people away from the LC's, the only reason he was even allowed to come was that his authority came from Lee. He knew it, we knew it, and Lee knew it.

When Lee decided to abandon Max for reasons related to Philip Lee, and he disowned any involvement with Max's travels, in the eyes of the whole recovery Max bore complete responsibility for everything. But what did the Lord tell Pilate, "he who delivered Me had the greater sin." The Jewish leaders thought they were absolved from all responsibility since Pilate crucified Jesus, but God sees things differently.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Well then Ohio, what exactly did Max confess to at Thankful Jane's dinner table?

[/COLOR][/I]This incident was not a lie and it was indicative of the problem with Max. Something had to be done about it and was.

Now you are arguing on Max's behalf? Makes no sense.

Based on how I read Thankful Jane's post, Max was admitting he was ambitious and eventually repented for his ambition. In years since, how forgiving has been the LC attitude towards Max? Does it matter he went to Francis Ball's memorial service? In the past I did ask a tenured responsible brother about Max. "Oh he was ambitious." Many who had been in the local churches in the 1970's would agree Max was ambitious. What is debatable is if Max's confrontation of Phillip Lee expedited Max's departure from the local churches.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Based on how I read Thankful Jane's post, Max was admitting he was ambitious and eventually repented for his ambition. In years since, how forgiving has been the LC attitude towards Max? Does it matter he went to Francis Ball's memorial service? In the past I did ask a tenured responsible brother about Max. "Oh he was ambitious." Many who had been in the local churches in the 1970's would agree Max was ambitious. What is debatable is if Max's confrontation of Phillip Lee expedited Max's departure from the local churches.

For years I heard MR was ambitious, JI was ambitious, TC was ambitious.

What is wrong with Christians being ambitious?

It is truly stupid that ambition in the LRC is so condemned.

We should, however, be talking about how WL and PL and BP and RG etc. were just as ambitious.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For years I heard MR was ambitious, JI was ambitious, TC was ambitious.

What is wrong with Christians being ambitious?

It is truly stupid that ambition in the LRC is so condemned.

We should, however, be talking about how WL and PL and BP and RG etc. were just as ambitious.

No argument here. Can anyone say there is not a double-standard in regard to ambition in the LC history?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

No argument here. Can anyone say there is not a double-standard in regard to ambition in the LC history?

There is no double standard as far as I have seen. Brothers who are chosen for the top echelon exhibit ambition because they are willing to compromise. For example, RG and BP were willing to look the other way as PL abused saints (remember one of the abused sisters was sent to Houston, they were fully aware of who this man was) in order to satisfy their ambition.

However, this ambition is referred to as "aspiration", good ambition. This is as long as they are yes men. As soon as they get a backbone, like Max, they are booted out for "ambition".

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

There is no double standard as far as I have seen. Brothers who are chosen for the top echelon exhibit ambition because they are willing to compromise. For example, RG and BP were willing to look the other way as PL abused saints (remember one of the abused sisters was sent to Houston, they were fully aware of who this man was) in order to satisfy their ambition.

However, this ambition is referred to as "aspiration", good ambition. This is as long as they are yes men. As soon as they get a backbone, like Max, they are booted out for "ambition".

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.

The double-standard I see is calling a brother ambitious because he won't kowtow any longer. While the same brother was kowtowing, he wasn't ambitious.
While MR, JI, JS, TC, BM, NT, etc were in the LSM fellowship they were not considered to be ambitious. As soon as a politically incorrect stance was taken, these brothers were out of fellowship because they were ambitious.

Same can be said for the current blendeds. They're not considered to be ambitious. As soon as one of the blendeds does something politically incorrect, that blended brother(s) will be considered ambitious.

Generally speaking to say one is ambitious can have a negative or positive connotation. In the LRC code-speak, ambition is considered a negative word. Yes, aspiration can be a LRC code-speak for positive ambition.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

Based on how I read Thankful Jane's post, Max was admitting he was ambitious and eventually repented for his ambition. In years since, how forgiving has been the LC attitude towards Max? Does it matter he went to Francis Ball's memorial service? In the past I did ask a tenured responsible brother about Max. "Oh he was ambitious." Many who had been in the local churches in the 1970's would agree Max was ambitious. What is debatable is if Max's confrontation of Phillip Lee expedited Max's departure from the local churches.

If you look at this incident in isolation a case can be made, as Cassidy did, that WL did what any responsible supervisor / boss would have done. However, as Thankful Jane pointed out the way in which Max was dismissed was not in any way justified. But if you also look at the sister's rebellion you cannot explain that incident with anything that Max did other than the fact that Max and Sandy knew about PL.

What bothers me most is how does a so called spiritual brother full of spiritual discernment like WL put a lascivious man like PL into the position of office manager of the LSM. If you argue that he wasn't aware of what kind of man PL was that is equally heinous, this was his son and he doesn't even know what kind of man he was? If he was hoping for some kind of change in response to being put into this position it is still a failure on his part, yet as soon as Max confronted him that should have been the end of the experiment. Dealing with Max doesn't in any way explain the lack of dealing with PL, on the contrary it highlights the hypocrisy. And the hypocrisy continues as JI and others also complain about PL.

Cassidy's explanation is woefully inadequate. Why did WL put PL into that position in the first place? No explanation. Why didn't WL deal with PL when his sexual abuse was first brought to WL's attention? Why didn't WL deal with PL when others also confronted WL about PL? Why choose shipwreck instead of dealing with PL?

The first time I met PL it was abundantly obvious to me this was a lascivious man that had no business handling the things of God. Why didn't WL see this? Why didn't RG or BP see this? How can you trust their judgment when it is so plainly deficient.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Cassidy's explanation is woefully inadequate. Why did WL put PL into that position in the first place? No explanation. Why didn't WL deal with PL when his sexual abuse was first brought to WL's attention? Why didn't WL deal with PL when others also confronted WL about PL? Why choose shipwreck instead of dealing with PL?

The first time I met PL it was abundantly obvious to me this was a lascivious man that had no business handling the things of God. Why didn't WL see this? Why didn't RG or BP see this? How can you trust their judgment when it is so plainly deficient.

So many legitimate questions ... why? why? why? ... surrounding WL and PL.

Here's another one -- why didn't someone call the police on PL?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So many legitimate questions ... why? why? why? ... surrounding WL and PL.

Here's another one -- why didn't someone call the police on PL?

Perhaps one of the motivations for having this big defense team was in anticipation of possible lawsuits.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What bothers me most is how does a so called spiritual brother full of spiritual discernment like WL put a lascivious man like PL into the position of office manager of the LSM. If you argue that he wasn't aware of what kind of man PL was that is equally heinous, this was his son and he doesn't even know what kind of man he was? If he was hoping for some kind of change in response to being put into this position it is still a failure on his part, yet as soon as Max confronted him that should have been the end of the experiment. Dealing with Max doesn't in any way explain the lack of dealing with PL, on the contrary it highlights the hypocrisy. And the hypocrisy continues as JI and others also complain about PL.

Cassidy's explanation is woefully inadequate. Why did WL put PL into that position in the first place? No explanation. Why didn't WL deal with PL when his sexual abuse was first brought to WL's attention? Why didn't WL deal with PL when others also confronted WL about PL? Why choose shipwreck instead of dealing with PL?

The first time I met PL it was abundantly obvious to me this was a lascivious man that had no business handling the things of God. Why didn't WL see this? Why didn't RG or BP see this? How can you trust their judgment when it is so plainly deficient.

With both Phillip and Timothy, Witness loved his sons. I believe Witness wanted his sons to be successful businessmen. Through the local churches, Witness did what he could within his power to make that possible. First was Timothy's role in Daystar and later Phillip's role in Living Stream Ministry. Whenever there were issues with sisters where Timothy and Phillip were concerned, it was these sisters and their families that were sent out of the area.
I am sure there are those that have criticism towards the Anaheim elders when the PL issue first came up in the late 70's and didn't deal with it for another 10 years. In the late 70's if MR, FB, and GG knew about it, wouldn't AK and JI had known about it too? Maybe they thought WL had dealt with PL and it was considered closed until it happened again? I don't know which is why I'm raising these questions.

RG and BP knew about Phillip. They admitted knowing when JI and KU met with them in the late 80's. Maybe RG and BP tolerated and condoned Phillip's actions because they saw by supporting Phillip, it was just a "stepping-stone" to support Witness and his ministry? In another way to re-phrase it, "the end justifies the means".