The ground on which the church should be built

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Based on how I read Thankful Jane's post, Max was admitting he was ambitious and eventually repented for his ambition. In years since, how forgiving has been the LC attitude towards Max? Does it matter he went to Francis Ball's memorial service? In the past I did ask a tenured responsible brother about Max. "Oh he was ambitious." Many who had been in the local churches in the 1970's would agree Max was ambitious. What is debatable is if Max's confrontation of Phillip Lee expedited Max's departure from the local churches.

For years I heard MR was ambitious, JI was ambitious, TC was ambitious.

What is wrong with Christians being ambitious?

It is truly stupid that ambition in the LRC is so condemned.

We should, however, be talking about how WL and PL and BP and RG etc. were just as ambitious.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For years I heard MR was ambitious, JI was ambitious, TC was ambitious.

What is wrong with Christians being ambitious?

It is truly stupid that ambition in the LRC is so condemned.

We should, however, be talking about how WL and PL and BP and RG etc. were just as ambitious.

No argument here. Can anyone say there is not a double-standard in regard to ambition in the LC history?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

No argument here. Can anyone say there is not a double-standard in regard to ambition in the LC history?

There is no double standard as far as I have seen. Brothers who are chosen for the top echelon exhibit ambition because they are willing to compromise. For example, RG and BP were willing to look the other way as PL abused saints (remember one of the abused sisters was sent to Houston, they were fully aware of who this man was) in order to satisfy their ambition.

However, this ambition is referred to as "aspiration", good ambition. This is as long as they are yes men. As soon as they get a backbone, like Max, they are booted out for "ambition".

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

There is no double standard as far as I have seen. Brothers who are chosen for the top echelon exhibit ambition because they are willing to compromise. For example, RG and BP were willing to look the other way as PL abused saints (remember one of the abused sisters was sent to Houston, they were fully aware of who this man was) in order to satisfy their ambition.

However, this ambition is referred to as "aspiration", good ambition. This is as long as they are yes men. As soon as they get a backbone, like Max, they are booted out for "ambition".

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.

The double-standard I see is calling a brother ambitious because he won't kowtow any longer. While the same brother was kowtowing, he wasn't ambitious.
While MR, JI, JS, TC, BM, NT, etc were in the LSM fellowship they were not considered to be ambitious. As soon as a politically incorrect stance was taken, these brothers were out of fellowship because they were ambitious.

Same can be said for the current blendeds. They're not considered to be ambitious. As soon as one of the blendeds does something politically incorrect, that blended brother(s) will be considered ambitious.

Generally speaking to say one is ambitious can have a negative or positive connotation. In the LRC code-speak, ambition is considered a negative word. Yes, aspiration can be a LRC code-speak for positive ambition.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But if you also look at the sister's rebellion you cannot explain that incident with anything that Max did other than the fact that Max and Sandy knew about PL.

There is a little more explanation that can be given.

It took Lee over a year to get rid of Max after the initial conflict over Phillip. Sandee told us that if Lee had done something against Max too fast, it would not have worked well because there were many brothers and sisters in Anaheim who loved Max and Sandee for the personal care they had received from them. Sandee said that when they first moved to Anaheim, they had found a lot of hurt and wounded brothers and sisters who needed help. They began taking care of them--praying for them and fellowshipping with them to help them with practical life matters such as marriage difficulties, etc. This kind of care went on for several years before Max went to Lee about Phillip. Because of Max and Sandee’s hands-on care, many Anaheim brothers and sisters would not have been easily turned against them. Sandee said that Lee himself had very little interaction with the “common” brothers and sisters in Anaheim. She thinks that after the Max went to him about PL, Lee realized he was vulnerable in Anaheim because of the saints’ love for Max and Sandee. He had to find a way to gradually discredit them.

The first step he took was to speak against Sandee publicly in a meeting. He did this at a Middle Age conference that was being held in Anaheim while Max was at a young people’s conference in Chicago (pretty sure it was Chicago). Lee’s speaking against Sandee occurred Memorial Day weekend 1977. What Lee did was a very hurtful to Sandee, not only because of their personal closeness to him, but also because during the previous few years, she and two other sisters had been in constant (weekly, I believe she said) fellowship with Lee and the Anaheim elders about how they were caring for the Anaheim brothers and sisters.

At the Middle Age conference Lee publicly corrected Sandee and the other two sisters for sitting together in meetings. This might seem to be a little thing, but it sent a loud message that Lee was not pleased with Sandee. Sandee said things began to change from that time forward. She and the other sisters could not understand why Lee did this publicly, when he easily could have said this to them in one of their private meetings with him. Someone called Max in Chicago to tell him what Lee had done, and he came home immediately. This was when Max and Sandee first began to realize that Lee was changing his face toward them and to suspect that it was because of Max’s action concerning PL, which had occurred shortly before this.

By the summer of 1978, things had progressed to the point that what had gone on with the sisters in Anaheim was being characterized as a “sisters’ rebellion” and what Max had been doing was being portrayed as damage to the recovery because of his independent ambition.

Max and Sandee left in the fall of 1978.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

The first step he took was to speak against Sandee publicly in a meeting. He did this at a Middle Age conference that was being held in Anaheim while Max was at a young people’s conference in Chicago (pretty sure it was Chicago). Lee’s speaking against Sandee occurred Memorial Day weekend 1977.

I can definitely confirm that Max was in Chicago (at their old meeting hall in the former masonic lodge) for a young people's conference Memorial day weekend in 1977.

In the last meeting it was announced that the conference was to continue the following weekend with Max sharing "more of Lee's burden." The following weekend we all returned, but Max did not come. We were never told why.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Sandee told us that if Lee had done something against Max too fast, it would not have worked well because there were many brothers and sisters in Anaheim who loved Max and Sandee for the personal care they had received from them.

Reminds me of the Wizard of Oz where the witch turns the hour glass over and says "these things have to be done delicately, delicately"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Reminds me of the Wizard of Oz where the witch turns the hour glass over and says "these things have to be done delicately, delicately"

And all the little Munchkins sang ...

You're off to see the Wizard
The Wonderful Wizard of Oz
You'll find he is a whiz of a Wiz
If ever a Wiz there was.
If ever, oh ever, a Wiz there was
The Wizard of Oz Is one because
Because, because, because, because, because ...
Because of the wonderful things he does ...

[aron]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

The first step [Lee] took was to speak against Sandee publicly in a meeting. He did this at a Middle Age conference that was being held in Anaheim while Max was at a young people’s conference in Chicago... at the Middle Age conference Lee publicly corrected Sandee and the other two sisters for sitting together in meetings. This might seem to be a little thing, but it sent a loud message that Lee was not pleased with Sandee. Sandee said things began to change from that time forward.

Lee said, "Who among you have I controlled?" But the reality was, if Lee publicly criticized something even so small as who you sat with, you were marked out.

This is actually an insidious type of control. Once the Maximum Leader gives even subtle cues that you're not in favor, invisible wheels start to turn and the system grinds you to dust.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Lee said, "Who among you have I controlled?" But the reality was, if Lee publicly criticized something even so small as who you sat with, you were marked out.

This is actually an insidious type of control. Once the Maximum Leader gives even subtle cues that you're not in favor, invisible wheels start to turn and the system grinds you to dust.

Even though they held a Kangaroo Court in Whistler, you got to at least give the Blendeds a little credit when they quarantined Titus Chu. At least they attempted to gather witnesses together.

Lee and Chu, however, always acted unilaterally in their public shamings, humiliations, and disciplines. We had a poster here recently who was thus expelled by TC in a meeting I was once at. There was no reason or information provided, and I doubt if TC considered he even had the need to provide it.