The LCS Factor

[finallyprettyokay]

Hope:

You listed four causes for a lot of the troubles. I would submit a fifth --

Good, decent men (and women, to some degree -- but they were 'lesser') who truly loved God and wanted to serve Him. These men were usually 'born' leaders, with charisma. They were appointed as elders. With no experience, often, and almost always with no real training or education in dealing with the sort of human problems you describe in your post. Family problems, kids, marriage, work, all these things. I remember some of the 'elders' as real youngsters -- married maybe 5 or 6 years, having toddlers and preschoolers, and working at their 5th or 6th job. Not much life experience, really. Even the gentlemen that were older had little or no training in counseling or family support skills. An exception that I think of (I'm sure there were more, I just don't know them) was John Smith in San Diego. He had been a Baptist minister pre-LC, had experience and education being a pastor, a shepherd. And it showed. He also had a few years under his belt, raising a family, etc. He was the man I wrote about early on this (long, long) thread that stood up and said 'my kids WILL be in school sports, etc'. Some easier to stand up when you are the leader, but still a brave, honorable thing to do. Amazing man, John.

So, in all of our superiority and arrogance about poor, fallen Christianity, we allowed unqualified men to become leaders that really shouldn't have been leading in that sort of powerful capacity. Because we all know how much power those elders had. I can imagine that many of the good, decent, sincere men (Don, you included, I think) just trembled at the responsiblity and plowed their way through as best as they could, given the tools they had. Or lack of tools. But we just couldn't follow the ways of 'religion' and have trained, educated leaders. Heavens, no!!!!


Yeah, there were plenty of bad people going for the gold of controlling people --- terrible. But some of the people were just in way over their heads. Still, that does not in any way excuse them. Not even close. Hurting people, especially kids, is never every excused for ANY reason.


It was a sick, corrupt system.



Bookworm, boy howdy was there a class system. And single sisters? Bottom of the heap. I have some thoughts about that, sometime for another thread -- (oh, boy something to look forward to )

Has everyone checked out my post on the My Perspectives thread? I am shameless. Self promoting. The worst.


fpo

[Thankful Jane]

Good points, FPO. I checked your post and PMed you!!

Dear Hope,

The discussion is moving on and I plan to move on with it, but first of all, I would like to respond to something from yesterday. Also, since you have not responded to my request for further clarification about how I offended you, I will assume you did not feel the need to do so and that you are not still offended with me. If you would prefer to have further dialogue about this privately, please feel free to contact me via a PM.

Originally Posted by Hope

When I saw the direction in which dj was leading the thread, I could not hold my peace.

Not being able to hold our peace is not an excuse for going after a person. It is wrong to make a person and their motives the subject.

When we are disturbed by what we are hearing, the only thing that is fair game is the statements or deeds that are disturbing us. We can expose the error we see in them. (Granted, it may feel quite personal when statements or actions are questioned, but that is different than making the person the topic.)

Originally Posted by Hope

Posters on this forum take the actions and teachings of WL, the LSM and the BBs and come to conclussions about their motives. Are posters here under the same standard unless they are in an attack mode against all that is lc? Then do they get a free shot? From the actions and teachings of posters can a reasonable person fail to pick up on some of their motives or does that only apply to WL or an elder or an ex-elder?

As for addressing motives, we shouldn’t do this no matter who it is. No one gets a free pass. We can address deeds because we can see them, but we cannot see inside a man’s heart to know his motives. Maybe we can wonder and even have suspicion in our own mind, but to pronounce a public judgment about another’s perceived motives is over the line. We are all guilty of this at times; however, I don’t think anyone has done this to you on this thread. If I or anyone else has, please show me where. I will gladly repent for this if I did it.

Originally Posted by Hope

As this thread developed, it went from how may the LCS have contributed to errant behavior of some of the children to the members are like drug addicts and thus have dysfunctional families to all are idolaters to stories of gross abuses of authority and attacks and belittling of anyone who offers a different perspective. Thus my prediction seems to be coming true.

I think it's okay to use such terms to talk about serious problems related to "spiritual things." I am involved in a situation right now where the father is actually a God addict. That doesn’t mean he is really addicted to God. It means he is addicted to things that have the appearance of being God: church, ministry, serving others, etc. All his time and resources go there. This is what makes him feel good about himself. His drug keeps him from really seeing himself in the light of God and making very necessary changes in his present hurtful behavior towards his family. He is not putting obedience to God first, but is serving something else (idolatry). He is also guilty of abusing authority.

Please give me an example of what you are calling attacks and belittling. You’ve said this several times. I really want to see what you are talking about here. Not accepting another’s perspective does not equal belittling.

Originally Posted by Hope

Concern for abused children is way down the line from discrediting all involved in a local church.

My goal is not to discredit any person or locality or the LC movement as a whole. Rather it is to know the truth and to help others know the truth. Truth is what really helps people find freedom. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." If in any person or Christian organization is found to be not holding truth, then they stand self-discredited by this.

Originally Posted by Hope

TJ recommended the books of Neil Anderson. Tremendous work, not just for troubled Christians or substance abuse situations but for anyone. I believe I have read and closely studied all his works and have given them to troubled parents and children. I cannot recall him encouraging the counselor to find out how or what outside influence created the problem.

Thanks for mentioning Anderson’s works. Actually Anderson does speak about the importance of addressing what outside influence created the problem. He says, “The first step to freedom is to renounce your previous or current involvements with satanically inspired occult practices and false religions … Any activity or group which denies Jesus is the Christ, offers guidance through any source other than the absolute authority of the written Word of God, or requires secret initiations must be forsaken. No Christian has any business being a part of any group that is not completely open about all they do. If the leaders of any group demand absolute authority instead of serving the needs of their constituents, do no submit to them.” He includes a list of organizations. In His book Living Free in Christ, the Local Church is listed. In this step he is dealing with outside influences that contribute to the problem.

The most applicable step I believe, however, is step 2 which is truth vs. deception. This step requires separating truth from deception. Anderson says that deception is the most subtle of all Satanic strongholds. I spent a lot of time studying deception and reading other materials about this. I wrote some about it myself. I reached the conclusion that “deception” is the best description of the stronghold of Satan in the Local Churches. False beliefs and false teachings produce bad fruit. If a Christian group produces bad fruit in its members lives, then that all of that group’s teachings and beliefs must be carefully examined against the truth in God’s Word for what is false.

As for bringing up cases of abuse in the LC, there are many reasons to do this. The first is so that the abused can be comforted by fellow members. What they have lost cannot be recovered, but care, and even indignation, expressed by others does help them, even if the abused say they don’t need it. All of our hearts are examined by God in the process.

Also, cases of abuse are useful to identify what kind of deception is at work by examining the abusive practices in the light of the Bible’s teaching. Hearing about such cases can help others, who have been abused and are still suffering silently because of it, to realize they are not alone and begin to find help for themselves. They also can serve to convict abusers of their sin, and, of course, to warn others not to join up with the LC. Probably most important of all reasons to examine cases of abuse is that the final spotlight lands on the devil, where it belongs, and he loses the ability in that area, at least, to deceive us again.

Thankful Jane

[finallyprettyokay]

You know, I have shared that Max R. is a friend and a man who made a huge difference in my life. Anyone who ever heard him speak knows the man is a riot. I am talking stand up, Comedy Central here he comes. Funny and smart.

Well, one of my favorite things that he would say had to do with people misunderstanding each other. He would say something like this:

Did you think that I was thinking something about you? I wasn't thinking that, but I think you thought that I thought that and I think you think you know what I was thinking about your thinking, but I wasn't thinking that at all.

Something like that. The point being, we just misunderstood each other, and should have checked it out better.

So (deep breath here) -- I timidly advance this theory --- way back, at the beginning of this thread, the blessD story was posted. Terrible story, everyone who would hear that story would be horrified.

Don, having been from that city, and having been a leader there, thought something like this:

that we thought that he thought that he was thinking that maybe we thought he was one of the men who did that but when he first told us he wasn't one of them, we all (as far as I know) believed him, because we already had a sense of who he is but he didn't know that we really did think that, he thought that we were thinking something wrong. But we really weren't thinking that at all.

AT THAT POINT ( I feel like Perry Mason ), Don sort of stumbled around in his horror at the story and his even more horror that we would think he was part of that shameful meeting. And in the stumbling, people heard evasions and maybe even denial that it really happened at all. And that created a lot of feelings.

But I think he was never thinking that.

And it just got worse. And really, I don't think anyone here really disagrees very much at all. I think we all agree that the system was bad, bad, bad. And people got hurt. We all know that. We all got hurt there, I think, or we probably wouldn't be spending time on this forum. Kids got hurt there. And we also know that there were plenty of good, well-meaning people, doing the best they could. But somethimes those good, well-meaning people hurt good well-meaning people. That is never anything but wrong, wrong, wrong.

Now I feel like Jimmy Carter, at the Peace Summit. I wish. What a role model that man is.

So. Timidly, I propose this scenario. Maybe?


FPO

[Hope]

Hello BlessD,

Not sure myself but any of the ones on the list would be fine Christians. It was a term I grew up with and have used it to describe a person you know who is a believer in Jesus Christ and who has had a positive impact on your life and others.

Hope

[bookworm]

Now I feel like Jimmy Carter, at the Peace Summit. I wish. What a role model that man is.

So. Timidly, I propose this scenario. Maybe?


FPO


Hello finallyprettyokay,

I just read your post on My Perspective and thank you for it. I, too, am grateful for this forum and the opportunity to try to “make more sense” of our LC experience. I agree this experience does have “profound, long-reaching effects” on each of us and it helps tremendously to have someone to talk with about it who understands. As Thankful Jane pointed out, in sharing with others our hearts are examined by God in the process. We realize we are not alone and we begin to find help for ourselves and be set free.

From your most recent posting it appears you are similar to me in that you like to try to smooth things over and “fix things.” However, I am learning that it is much better to stay in the light and allow the Lord to do His work because he knows our hearts and what problems we all have. He sees the big picture while ours is limited.

(By the way, I am by no means a Jimmy Carter fan, for what that is worth, but do agree with your statement of “what a role model that man is.” It reminds me of the Hebrews Conference in LA—the last one my husband and I attended. At that one Witness Lee used the statement, “What a ____!” and said it is a way to comment on something without offending anyone.)

[finallyprettyokay]

Bookworm:

I remember that too --- What a Baby!!!!

I thought a lot before my last post, a couple of days actually, wanting to be sure that I wasn't trying to just smooth things over, and finally decided to write. I do do that at times, but I am also very much a stand-up person who is not afraid to face the real situation. Head-on, if needs be.

I write this not so much to explain my motives or feelings, but to say I hope everyone really looks at what I wrote, and doesn't just see it as a Pollyanna attempt at peace. Peace is good, no doubt. But not at the cost of truth.

Sorry about the Jimmy Carter reference --- I really didn't mean to be political. I actually forgot everyone doesn't feel about him like I do. Dumb of me.

fpo

[Hope]

Hi Guys,

As I was closing down, I saw the post about this remark. Actually that was a statement by T. A. Sparks which WL claimed Sparks tried to teach WL. WL used it to discredit Sparks. I heard the story so many times sitting around the table or in a living room. WL liked to belittle Sparks. He would claim we know people by little things. This was an example of the "real" character of Sparks etc. Just a little note from the what is it worth bin.

Don

[OBW]

“Why do some want to stop folks from writing about what they know? What are they trying to hide?”

That is exactly the issue. Except for Process, virtually none of you know about the church in Dallas, and cannot contradict the accounts of the people who live there. I cannot see that anyone was trying hide anything. They were speaking of their knowledge.

Tell your story. Tell actual stories and tell what they actually mean. If there is a clear issue of abuse by the LC, its leadership, its teachings, its practices, make the point.

So the following preceded the account of BlessD’s humiliation. “Anyway, it's been intimated that The Church in Dallas was somehow without problems in this area, and Matt came out to refute that notion. Please consider another thread with reference to The Church in Dallas, The Thread of Gold:”

The story that follows is an excellent example of the kind of abuse (or for the squeamish, excessive exercise of authority) that happened within the LC. This story is one that actually speaks to real abuse of power, control, authority, etc. It is a clear example for this thread.

But it was presented to say something about Dallas. Read it again. Houston and OKC were the primary players. They happened to be in Dallas. Nothing about who was clearly there. How does this say anything about Dallas? Maybe that Benson and/or Ray had way to much sway in the whole region. Or maybe James. It says something about the “witness elders,” whoever they were, that sat by silently, cowards to speak up against the perpetrators (or maybe simply learning how to do it themselves). Would we be blaming the pilot of an airline if this had happened at 30,000 ft. over any particular city? Curse that pilot for not knowing what was happening on his plane!!

“You can’t use that example because it has Dallas in it. That’s not fair because the sister was from Houston and her parents were from Oklahoma City; and, even if our doctrine says that when you’re in Dallas, you’re a member of The Church in Dallas, in order for this to be admitted into evidence, she would have to be a card-carrying member of The Church in Dallas; and, just because elders were there from 4 different churches, Hope himself wasn’t there, so this is one example of abuse that shouldn’t have been brought out.”

That is a misrepresentation of the argument concerning this event. It seems to reinforce exactly what I said about a lynching. Everything that had even the remotest mention of Dallas was evidence of what Dallas was like. No one has made a case that this incident had anything to do with Dallas except for being host city to the perpetrators. For all the ranting you say that Don and I have done, this is clearly your error, not ours.

The facts do not support the position taken. Move on. Not to ignore actual problems, but to face the actual problems.

To paraphrase another, I’m stopping this in its tracks. Stopping the gross error in judgment for bringing this example out as a way to vilify Dallas. There are plenty of things available for you to use to pick on Dallas. This one is not close. It is a crime against logic. Might as well blame me for Watergate because I was in one of the bands in Nixon’s inaugural parade. It is just about as great a leap of logic.

Make the argument that BlessD’s story makes, not an argument that it does not make.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by bookworm

We were sold a bill of goods by the LC leadership that assured us that we were giving ourselves for the building of the true church that the New Testament speaks about. In time, however, we were told we were a part of the Lord’s army and should follow orders without questioning, all for the sake of the building of the church.

bookworm

Originally Posted by Hope

I was there for the same reason you were. It was for an ideal, a vision, which you have well described.

Hope

Dear Mom (Thankful Jane),

I'm reading what bookworm and Hope said that they originally gave themselves to. This goes to one of the core things I have thought about a lot. I don't want to say what I am thinking without further clarifying what this "ideal" / "vision" was in all of you guys minds.

So, can you describe in more detail what was the "ideal" / "vision" you gave yourself to?

Matt

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Matt

Dear Mom (Thankful Jane),

I'm reading what bookworm and Hope said that they originally gave themselves to. This goes to one of the core things I have thought about a lot. I don't want to say what I am thinking without further clarifying what this "ideal" / "vision" was in all of you guys minds.

So, can you describe in more detail what was the "ideal" / "vision" you gave yourself to?

Matt

Hi Matt,

Here's waving at ya! I'm going to jump in..because I had a 'spiritual vision' when I came into the church-life I want to share w/everyone.

I got saved in January '75. One might say I came off the streets. I had been a party girl, living a hippie-like life.

I got saved on a Monday morning at work through some LC brethren. After work, I went to a sisters/family house for dinner & introduction to the new life I had found. Tuesday night, I went to a corporate prayer meeting & got water baptized. Wednesday was some other type of meeting. Thursday, I went door knocking with the sisters to invite them for Saturday evening's 'love feast', Friday night..first MESSAGE at the meeting hall.

I spent the night/weekend with the sisters. Sunday evening, I moved in with the sisters/family.

I had not seen the 'vision' of the church...just jumped into it head first.

It was a loving environment but was BOOT CAMP for me!! ARRGHH!! It was HARD!! I couldn't say anything without everyone 'calling on the Name of the Lord'. OHHHHHH Lord JESUS.' You know the routine.

But I loved the LORD and was grateful for giving me a way out of the way I was living. However....I was now entering a social life I was not accustomed to, with complete strangers and sometimes, frankly, I was scared.

I had a lot to learn. I had a lot of growing up to do.....spiritually and emotionally.

4 months later, I went to my first 'Young People's conference' in LA I think.

It was on Daniel. It was totally wayyyy over my head! But it was joyous & everyone was excited.

It was a 4 day conference and I recall something happening to me at the last day of the conference. I SAW with my spiritual eyes 'the church'. Something clicked inside of me.

Was I being brainwashed? I don't know. I don't think so. I truly believe it was a spiritual vision God gave me. I don't know how else to describe it.

At that point, I 'fell in love' with Christ ......and the church. I enjoyed picking up people for meetings, preparing dinners, cleaning and arranging, fellowshipping, praying with the saints, going to meetings...going out on the gospel...etc... Remember. I was in SAN DIEGO. It was a good church life there.

But it wasn't to last.

Perhaps that is why I still feel connected in some peculiar way to the saints in this forum.

I absolutely don't want anything to do with the LC messages/jargon/lingo/ but I can't seem to break completely away from my former LC connection..even if it's not part of my life at all...except when I come here.

[blessD]

Originally Posted by finallyprettyokay

So (deep breath here) -- I timidly advance this theory --- way back, at the beginning of this thread, the blessD story was posted. Terrible story, everyone who would hear that story would be horrified.

Don, having been from that city, and having been a leader there, thought something like this:

that we thought that he thought that he was thinking that maybe we thought he was one of the men who did that but when he first told us he wasn't one of them, we all (as far as I know) believed him, because we already had a sense of who he is but he didn't know that we really did think that, he thought that we were thinking something wrong. But we really weren't thinking that at all.

AT THAT POINT ( I feel like Perry Mason ), Don sort of stumbled around in his horror at the story and his even more horror that we would think he was part of that shameful meeting.
FPO

this totally made me laugh out loud.

When I was a teenager, I recall the young people in Dallas and TX area considered Hope a friend and someone they could talk to - he was one of the few leaders or non-leaders considered a trusted person. However, one person could never fix everything that was broke.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by finallyprettyokay

Hope:

..... An exception that I think of (I'm sure there were more, I just don't know them) was John Smith in San Diego. He had been a Baptist minister pre-LC, had experience and education being a pastor, a shepherd. And it showed. He also had a few years under his belt, raising a family, etc. He was the man I wrote about early on this (long, long) thread that stood up and said 'my kids WILL be in school sports, etc'. Some easier to stand up when you are the leader, but still a brave, honorable thing to do. Amazing man, John.

Has everyone checked out my post on the My Perspectives thread? I am shameless. Self promoting. The worst.

fpo

Yeppers! John Smith was a most excellent Shepherd...His wife Sonya too. They had 7 kids I think...rowdy bunch they were!

That's why my experience in San Diego was good. John Smith, Les Cites (even though he is a die hard LSMR, UGH! Willie Samoff and Roger Beck were the elders in San Diego.)

Roger is with the LORD now. I loved them all. I still do. What a blessing it was for me to be under their covering. They were/are very good, decent, GOD loving people...people loving people. I think of them. I pray they are doing well.

Each of them were different from each other but complimented each other very well. They knew the flock and the flock knew them.

I think that's why me & FPO are pretty OK!

Uh...and Mrs FPO...can you get any MORE shameless & self promoting ?