A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I finally have some time to post. Sorry this doesn't follow the previous posts well.




Mike,

I didn’t post Cahn’s message to have someone speak for me. I posted it because it spoke to me. I think it spoke to me because I believe that God is (was and will be until time is no more) actively involved in the affairs of men and history. Cahn’s point was not that we should return to a prior blessing, but that we need to be warned that God’s judgment was on the horizon, even had begun. Cahn paralleled events that occurred during God’s judging of Israel with events that happened on 9/11, not just because it sounded like a plausible thesis, but because he had seen that there were stunning parallels to Isa 9:10.

To me, the point of Cahn’s message was a wake-up call concerning God’s judgment. The Bible is plain that God, after much longsuffering, does move His hand to judge. His judgment is always with the end goal of salvation and restoration. The Bible also shows that God gives fair (even overly fair) multiple warnings before He judges.

Furthermore, judgment is not limited to God’s people only. God even warned Nineveh, the capitol of Assyria, a gentile nation, by sending the prophet Jonah to preach to them about God’s impending judgment. The ruler and the people of Nineveh repented and God did not judge them. This shows that a nation doesn’t have to belong to God or be under God’s blessing, and then lose it, in order to become qualified for judgment (or warning). Also Nebucchadnezer (Babylonian king) was judged as an individual ruler (he went mad and was chained to a stump for a period of time) that he might be humbled, so that the “living might know that the Most High ruled in the kingdom of men.”

Back to Cahn: It was what he shared about Isa. 9:10 that primarily got my attention. (I thought that others who heard his message would be struck with the same thing. Instead, you started a discussion on this thread about there being no relationship between Israel, God’s blessing on the U.S., etc. You did this while saying that you had only listened the beginning of Cahn’s message, so you hadn’t heard what he said about Isaiah 9:10. I understand that it was hard for you to listen to him because you didn’t like his opening and where you thought he was headed with it.)

With regard to what Cahn said about Isa. 9:10, none of us can accurately or thoroughly explain history from God’s perspective, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t get glimpses of His involvement, if we are watching, which we are commanded to do when we are told to watch and pray (Mark 13:33). I think that Cahn, in what he shared about Isa 9:10, provides such a glimpse.

Isaiah 9:10 shows things that happened to Ephraim (the northern kingdom) and Samaria (it's capitol, I believe) as God began to judge them. This verse was the proud, stouthearted response of the northern kingdom to a first wave of God’s judgment which came by way of an attack from the Assyrians (which God allowed to happen by removing the hedge of protection from Israel.) The people of the northern kingdom responded to this attack by saying, “The bricks are fallen, but we will build with hewn stone; the sycamores are cut down, but we will put cedars in their place.” Because of this proud, defiant response, Isaiah tells them next that there will be another Assyrian invasion. “...For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.” Isaiah continues with prophecy about ever-increasing judgment against Ephraim.

Isn’t it possible that the reoccurrence in 2001 of specific things found in Isa. 9:10 are not coincidental and contain a message for us?

Ground zero, where Washington and others went to pray and dedicate America’s future to God immediately after Washington was inaugurated, was in New York, which was the US capitol at the time of Washington’s inauguration. On 9/12, Senate Majority Leader, Tom Daschle, quoted Isa. 9:10 saying that the US would rebuild, not realizing that this same word had been spoken by Israel as a word of defiance against an act of God’s judgment which had been sent to wake them up.

The only building that was left intact at ground zero was the little chapel on the spot where Washington’s prayer and dedication had taken place. The chapel had been shielded from falling debris by a sycamore tree which was hit and cut down by that debris. Also, just as in Israel, where sycamores were cut down by God's judgment and then were replaced with cedar trees, the ground zero sycamore was replaced with a cedar tree.

Also, as had taken place in the northern kingdom, where a hewn stone was laid for the building of a new edifice (referred to in one place as a tower), a hewn stone was placed at Ground Zero as a foundation stone for the rebuilding of a new tower, called the Freedom Tower. On the third anniversary of 9/11 (9-11-2004) Jonathan Edwards, another congressman, gave an entire speech built around Isa. 9:10. In it he talked about how America was doing just that—rebuilding with hewn stone and planting cedars. (He was apparently unaware of the fact that this had literally occurred with respect to 9/11.) There are other uncanny parallels in actual things that happened at the time of 9/11 which fit with Isa. 9:10. I cannot simply write them off as coincidence without some real consideration and serious prayer. (I wonder if you and others who have used the argument that America was not particularly blessed by God in order to be dismissive of Cahn’s message, took time before you began your argument to stop and ask God to show you if Cahn’s message was from Him. I have to admit that I didn’t pray such a prayer at first, but I have now, and trust that He will answer.)

Obviously, Cahn had nothing to do with the things that happened. Rather, he reported to people, like a messenger, what God had shown him regarding Isa. 9:10 and events related to 9/11. The fact is that these things happened, and in my opinion, because I have heard about them from someone acting as a watchman (this is how I heard Cahn refer to himself in an interview), I should give them serious, sober consideration as a possible warning from God. I should take extremely seriously the need to begin praying desperately for God to turn people on this earth to Himself (not to restore our nation to some prior state of blessing. Blessing is the inevitable result of people turning to God.)

As I sit here writing, I can’t help but remember that Israel rejected time and time again the prophets that God sent to warn them. Shouldn’t we be cautious lest we inadvertently be found in similar shoes?

I heard a testimony from someone (years before hearing the Cahn message) that when they saw the towers fall on 9/11, they heard in their heart, and believed it was from the Lord, “It has begun.” They testified to me that this meant to them “judgment has begun.”

On the day that I heard Cahn’s word about Isaiah 9:10, this was my experience:

1. I saw a curtain pulled back, revealing awe-inspiring evidence that God is living, active, and very involved in what is happening today in the big picture on this earth. I was reminded that He is a hands-on God. He is not just sitting in the heavens in His front row throne-seat watching things unfold. He is unfolding them. (The timing of the video was significant to me because I had been recently witness to God actively orchestrating some specific things from the heavens, as only He can do, in several interrelated situations to which I was party.)

2. God got my attention freshly that I needed to be more diligently watching and praying. In particular, praying for the latter rain of the Spirit to be poured out on this earth for convicting men of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment--for the salvation of many, for the manifestation of the sons of God, and for the enemies of Christ to be seen where they belong, beneath the feet of Jesus.

Thankful Jane

Nice response.

It is mind boggling to me that people can talk about praying for our leaders, and praying for God's blessing, etc. Yet if anyone suggests that God responds, or that in addition to blessing He might also judge, these very same ones reject that out of hand.

It would be pointless to even have the OT accounts if God does not continue to move and act. This idea is not something of the OT, it is clearly stated in Acts that our God is a sovereign God. Jesus is Lord indicates that nothing takes place that He does not allow.

If you think the formation of this country is under God's sovereignty or that the reformation of Israel is under God's sovereignty how can you not believe 911, or Hurricane Katrina are also under his sovereignty.

Now I can understand if someone supported the Iraq war thinking that they were somehow the ones behind the terrorist on 911, though you should now be clear that was not the case. I can also understand if you honestly felt we invaded Iraq due to WMD's, yet again that idea should have long ago been dispelled. Now my question is this, all those people who were killed under false pretenses deserve God's righteous judgment. Is God going to sit by idly? On a similar note, if God does not stand up in judgment on behalf of the 50 million aborted babies, who will? Isn't He the God of the fatherless?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Nice response.

It is mind boggling to me that people can talk about praying for our leaders, and praying for God's blessing, etc. Yet if anyone suggests that God responds, or that in addition to blessing He might also judge, these very same ones reject that out of hand. ...

Yeah...bottom line:

Don't mess with Jane.

[OBW]

You sort of did let Cahn speak for you. You were sort of overwhelmed by that was going on inside and said you couldn't really describe it. So you gave us this link. So whatever it was you were trying to say, you really did leave it to him to describe.

Now since then, you have been more direct in speaking for yourself. But the continued references back to his speech and book are, to me, evidence of a level of misdirection. Not that you are misdirecting. But have been misdirected.

The last time a government sort of like ours allowed too much coziness with its preferred religion, the result was Pilgrims and others leaving for a new place. I'm all for praying. Even for the nation. And for repenting.

But the nation is not going to repent. It is a melting pot of Christians of many different kinds, including many who claim Christianity, but it is social, not religious. It includes those who claim different gods. And those who claim no god but themselves.

The nation was founded in such a way that many whose lives are centered around what Christian morality would call a moral sin are instead allowed to live in the way they chose. And it is the allowance of those lives that continues to allow us to live as we see fit. At some level, this nation is living as each man thinks is right in his own eyes. A familiar phrase. If this were Israel after Joshua, it would be the cause of times of punishment, followed by a rescue at the leadership of a Judge.

But this is not Israel. It is simply a pretty good kingdom of the world. It actually allows us as Christians to live extremely peaceful lives. Maybe we would be better off with less peace, less tolerance for us, and then have to prove with our living that there is something worthy about the God we serve. Instead, we argue that some book that the world has no interest in grants us some kind of right to a better nation.

It does not. It promises us hardship and persecution. We aren't even close to being persecuted. Unless you think the inability to force someone to listen to your prayer counts as persecution. That the inability to make abortion illegal is persecution.

Not saying that these things are your concerns. But it is what I hear around me constantly. It seems that it is the sins of the nation that caused it to be attacked in such a way. If that is the case, why are virtually every other nation of the earth not entirely destroyed? Aren't they even worse?

Or are we now back to actually accepting Cahn's argument that America is being judged like Israel for its sins. A nation with no contract with God being treated like a historical nation that did have such a contract.

This is a very ethnocentric (and egocentric) position. And one without precedence. Since someone suggested a parallel with Nineveh, where was the prophet before the judgment? Even Isaiah 9:10 was not just the result of the Northern kingdom presuming that their punishment was not from God. They had prophets speaking to them for years.

In our case, we only have the Word of God being spoken to His people. And we, like all Christians everywhere, are tasked with living a life that is worthy of the gospel and being ready to speak if asked what it is that is different. No charges to indicate that we have any ability to withhold the social and political currents of the world. Yes, we are to pray for peace. But the nations we inhabit are not imbued with special blessing for any reason. (There is even some consideration that the references to being a friend of Israel providing a benefit is suspect since that Israel no longer exists.) On what basis do we say otherwise outside of a self-declared covenant with God (that those at the time would possibly laugh at the idea that it was any such a thing).

If God spoke to us through the events of 9/11 and others like it, it should only be to stop trusting in chariots and horses — in kingdoms and governments. Instead, trust in the name of the Lord our God. He is our rock and salvation. America is not. The alleged "Christian" history of the nation is not.

If there is a message in the events of the past 13 years, that is what I would find in it. And to some degree I do find that message there. But I do not need to dwell on 9/11, or the direction that the nation and government seem to be going with respect to so many things to continue to turn to God. That is my need. America is not my need. I appreciate it greatly. I would like it to be even better. But whether it is or is not is not what I have been charged with as a Christian. It is for me to live a life according to the Spirit. The meat of that thread is much more important to my life than this one.

[Cal]

OBW,

I love you brother and I appreciate your intelligence and contributions here. But I have to say that sometimes you bring to mind Oscar Wilde's definition of a cynic: a person who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Of course, that's a little harsh. I just said it brought it to mind. Not that you totally fit the description.

My feeling about the whole matter is this:

If what it takes to get people to pray is for someone to compare us to Israel and cajole us into believing we'll get a blessing much like we'd get if we had a contract with God like Israel and lived up to it--then I say more power to him.

The fact is if you obey God you will be blessed in many ways. Yes, we should expect persecution and suffering. But we should also expect blessing. God promised if we sought the kingdom first, our needs would be taken care of. That's a blessing. He told us if we had to lose our family to be faithful to him, he would replace it in this life and the next with many more people. That's a blessing.

The whole Bible is full of general declarations, both to people and nations, that if you follow God you will be blessed and taken care of, and if you don't you should not be surprised when you find yourself in a bad place.

Suppose America did have a turn to God. And suppose we did reap a blessing because of that. Is that so far-fetched? And if it did happen, what would be the point of continuing the academic argument that, no, technically we did not have a contract with God exactly like Israel's, even though the resultant blessing from obedience sure made it look like we did?

[OBW]

Igzy,

I think that cynic is not the right term, but it is not far off. I am skeptical. Not in a "debunking" way, but in a "show me why it is so" kind of way. There is plenty of proof for a lot.

Originally Posted by Igzy

My feeling about the whole matter is this:

Originally Posted by Igzy

If what it takes to get people to pray is for someone to compare us to Israel and cajole us into believing we'll get a blessing much like we'd get if we had a contract with God like Israel and lived up to it--then I say more power to him.

The fact is if you obey God you will be blessed in many ways.

This is generally true. And it is the people who obey God who receive this benefit. And obedience starts with belief. Now blessing on the believers may spill over to those around them. That is a wonderful position to be in as a non-believer — getting some overflow of the blessings God is bestowing on His people.

And I agree that sometimes it is like when Paul referred to those who were preaching the gospel for the purpose of making the authorities angry and taking it out on Paul (who they had in prison). As Paul said, the gospel got preached.

My concerns (and skepticism) are not pointed at We the Believers waking up from our slumber and complacency and repenting and praying like we always should. It is at an overlay of belief that causes the repentance to be for the sins of others and the prayer to be perpetually aimed at problems others are having.

Surely we are to pray for others and for their problems. But that is not the primary thrust of our prayer and repentance. The primary thrust should be related to our worship of God, to prayer for his will and kingdom, for our needs, in repentance for our errors in conjunction with our forgiveness of those who have wronged us, and our prayer for deliverance from evil and temptation. Sounds somehow familiar.

And it does not include a prayer of repentance for errors that are not ours.

We each spent some of our lives engaged with a system that insisted that everything that was outside of their version of "truth" was a waste of time. Throwing that off is not simply accepting that nothing is a waste of time or a misdirection. If we are encouraged to truly follow a different error, then we become lead by someone building with wood hay and stubble. If my assessment of the thrust of this whole thing is correct, Cahn is building with those poor materials. Now we are not the builders but the building. The "tried by fire" problem will be his. But that does not mean that we should not see the error and turn back to the truth.

The truth is about us believing in and obeying Christ. The result in this life is the fulfillment of the righteousness of the law. That righteous fulfillment is not in a nation, but in His people. Everywhere. We are here thinking that we need to pray some blessing back upon the nation. What about all those poor Christians who don't live in America? What is their lot in life? To be sojourners in a "foreign" land, looking for that city whose builder is God. And that city is not America.

All of our energies dwelling on the history of chapels and addresses is an effort in myths and genealogies. It does not result in God's economy, but in disputes. The answer is not to teach God's economy, but to teach what was taught by Jesus, none of which even hinted at this kind of emphasis in mental, physical, and/or spiritual energies on obtaining a blessing for a secular nation.

But you are right. This is enough. You complain that I push back at what has been put forward. I think I have just as legitimate a complaint that it was ever put forward. So the answer is to just let it go? To step aside and let nonsense continue because someone got their feelings hurt?

Someone gets their feelings hurt every time there is a significant difference of opinion about any of the issues discussed here. That is not the basis for silence.

But I have said enough. If there are no ears to hear, then so be it.

I can assure you that there are many Christians outside of this nation that absolutely do not want to see us get what this effort seeks. It means a renewed sense of national pride leading our efforts to Americanize the rest of the world, including their Christian experience. Just like Lee set out to make Christianity in America (and the rest of the world) look like what they created in China. Fortunately he failed. For our sakes, I hope this effort does as well.

Not that we don't return to regular repentance and regular prayer. Even habitual prayer and willful repentance at set times. That is a must.

But I need to repent for me. My errors are not about America. How I live out this life that is now within me is my desperate need. Whether the laws of America allow prayer in public schools has nothing to do with it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Igzy,

I think that cynic is not the right term, but it is not far off. I am skeptical. Not in a "debunking" way, but in a "show me why it is so" kind of way. There is plenty of proof for a lot.
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]This is generally true. And it is the people who obey God who receive this benefit. And obedience starts with belief. Now blessing on the believers may spill over to those around them. That is a wonderful position to be in as a non-believer — getting some overflow of the blessings God is bestowing on His people.

And I agree that sometimes it is like when Paul referred to those who were preaching the gospel for the purpose of making the authorities angry and taking it out on Paul (who they had in prison). As Paul said, the gospel got preached.

My concerns (and skepticism) are not pointed at We the Believers waking up from our slumber and complacency and repenting and praying like we always should. It is at an overlay of belief that causes the repentance to be for the sins of others and the prayer to be perpetually aimed at problems others are having.

Surely we are to pray for others and for their problems. But that is not the primary thrust of our prayer and repentance. The primary thrust should be related to our worship of God, to prayer for his will and kingdom, for our needs, in repentance for our errors in conjunction with our forgiveness of those who have wronged us, and our prayer for deliverance from evil and temptation. Sounds somehow familiar.

And it does not include a prayer of repentance for errors that are not ours.

Do you agree with the teaching that Christians are going to rule over cities in the next age?

If you do agree then do you agree that Christians are being trained to rule in this age?

One other question, what part of "of the people, by the people and for the people" exonerates you from being responsible?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Do you agree with the teaching that Christians are going to rule over cities in the next age?

If you do agree then do you agree that Christians are being trained to rule in this age?

One other question, what part of "of the people, by the people and for the people" exonerates you from being responsible?

I agree that there is an aspect of ruling in the next age. Or at least something that is best described as such.

But there is nothing in what I can read in scripture that indicates that our "efforts" here on earth are designed to train us for the age to come in that manner. I do not agree that we are simply being trained to "rule," especially in this age. In fact, I find plenty to tell me that we are not here for this world, to rule it or otherwise, other than to be salt and light, not movers and shakers.

As for the general statement that the government of the US is "of the people, by the people, and for the people" I do not find that I am responsible, but rather invited to participate. And even to the extent that I might take on responsibility with respect to some part of it, that does not make the "spiritual" aspect of that part my "responsibility" outside of my own personal exercise of spirituality.

Phrasing your argument as you did might work on the simpleminded. But it presupposes that Christians in America are being groomed to rule over cities. I guess all the rest of the poor Christian schmucks in the world are being groomed to rule over hovels and cattle stalls. They surely will never get the opportunity to be part of "of, by, and for the people," therefore lacking in training for ruling a city.

Or is it the character of those who will eventually rule rather than training in ruling that matters?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

My concerns (and skepticism) are not pointed at We the Believers waking up from our slumber and complacency and repenting and praying like we always should. It is at an overlay of belief that causes the repentance to be for the sins of others and the prayer to be perpetually aimed at problems others are having.

Surely we are to pray for others and for their problems. But that is not the primary thrust of our prayer and repentance. The primary thrust should be related to our worship of God, to prayer for his will and kingdom, for our needs, in repentance for our errors in conjunction with our forgiveness of those who have wronged us, and our prayer for deliverance from evil and temptation. Sounds somehow familiar.

I can't take on your whole post because I don't have time. But I do want to take issue with this because to me its exemplary of what to me seems an error you make sometimes.

I guess I would call it an error of categorization--calling something one thing for the sake of argument when it could just as easily been called something else. In this case you are categorizing prayer for others as some kind of penance in their name.

I do not see that our prays for others and their repentance is a secondary type of prayer, even if they seem to include this kind of proxy repentance. To me praying that God's kingdom come and praying for repentance in others are very much the same thing. Where is God's kingdom to come but in the hearts of people? Angels streaming from heaven in glory with the Son of Man is the ultimate result of the the kingdom coming. But I think when Jesus said pray that God's kingdom come he wasn't talking about that, he was talking about the hearts of people repenting and submitting to God.

Now if you meant that our prayers are no ultimate substitute for the repentance of others, I agree. But at the same time an attitude of heartbreak and prayer because of the sins of others is not a bad thing. In fact, the Bible depicts this as a practice of Job.

'When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have [his children] purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.' Job 1:5

But, again, I think your attitude toward prayer is a little wrongheaded. I think praying for people and their problems (their problems of sin) is top shelf stuff. Otherwise, what do you mean by "your kingdom come?" Angels streaming in glory? That sounds a little like the LRC spiritualized indifference you often decry.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

The truth is about us believing in and obeying Christ. The result in this life is the fulfillment of the righteousness of the law. That righteous fulfillment is not in a nation, but in His people. Everywhere. We are here thinking that we need to pray some blessing back upon the nation. What about all those poor Christians who don't live in America? What is their lot in life? To be sojourners in a "foreign" land, looking for that city whose builder is God. And that city is not America.

I just found some more time

I agree with this. God is not a respecter of people. He could just as easily use any other nation, group or individual. Whoever will may come.

Yet... the fact is it does happen in some places, groups or individuals... and not others. And when it does, God calls those involved... chosen.

So saying the USA is chosen is no different than saying the LRC is chosen. It depends on what you mean by it. On the one hand, whoever will may come. On the other hand, some do and some don't. And God says the one who do come are chosen. What does that mean? I like to think it means glory to God.

But if you come and then become lazy and corrupt again and then rest on your "chosen-ness," let alone your "uniqueness" () then that is folly and hubris. That's what the LRC did and that's what the USA has done.

It's an honor to be chosen by God, but that doesn't justify an attitude of arrogant entitlement.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

But you are right. This is enough. You complain that I push back at what has been put forward. I think I have just as legitimate a complaint that it was ever put forward. So the answer is to just let it go? To step aside and let nonsense continue because someone got their feelings hurt?

Someone gets their feelings hurt every time there is a significant difference of opinion about any of the issues discussed here. That is not the basis for silence.

But I have said enough. If there are no ears to hear, then so be it.

You just keep pushing back. That's okay. And I'll keep telling you when I think you are being too academic. Deal?

Originally Posted by OBW

I can assure you that there are many Christians outside of this nation that absolutely do not want to see us get what this effort seeks. It means a renewed sense of national pride leading our efforts to Americanize the rest of the world, including their Christian experience. Just like Lee set out to make Christianity in America (and the rest of the world) look like what they created in China. Fortunately he failed. For our sakes, I hope this effort does as well.

I disagree with your assertion that God has no words for nations as wholes. The OT is full of them.

I think you heard something he didn't say. I just see a man trying to speak to a nation as a nation about Biblical principles. I don't see a man trying to stir up nationalism.

[alwayslearning]

What I find particularly odd is tying the U.S. to the OT nation of Israel. The Church was born and thrived under persecution in the cauldron of the pagan Greco-Roman world. I'm happy that the U.S. has been influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition but I'm under no delusions about what the State is and what it's interests are. It has been wisely said that "The church as a tool is a church of fools." Anytime the State tries to co-opts the church into it's agenda I grow wary. And the more the politicians shout about "family values" and "I'm a Christian vote for me!" the more I tell myself to let's wait and see.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

What I find particularly odd is tying the U.S. to the OT nation of Israel. The Church was born and thrived under persecution in the cauldron of the pagan Greco-Roman world. I'm happy that the U.S. has been influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition but I'm under no delusions about what the State is and what it's interests are. It has been wisely said that "The church as a tool is a church of fools." Anytime the State tries to co-opts the church into it's agenda I grow wary. And the more the politicians shout about "family values" and "I'm a Christian vote for me!" the more I tell myself to let's wait and see.

Do you find it odd that Christians would have a prayer breakfast on the morning of the inauguration to pray for blessings for this country?

If not, what is odd about discussing the God who you are praying to? Since it is God who raises Kingdoms and causes others to fall doesn't it make sense to understand the basis for his judgment (which includes blessing)? Israel was blessed by God and they were also judged, isn't that a strong basis to say that if God is going to bless you then he might also discipline you as well?

The NT tells us to pray for the leaders and to obey those that have rule over us. We are also told that we are a light set on a hill. This implies that God intends to be Lord over all the Earth, not just the Christians, and that "every knee will bow". Since when did Christians become so limp wristed that they could justify shutting their eyes and ears to all unrighteousness?

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Since it is God who raises Kingdoms and causes others to fall doesn't it make sense to understand the basis for his judgment (which includes blessing)? Israel was blessed by God and they were also judged, isn't that a strong basis to say that if God is going to bless you then he might also discipline you as well?

What is the basis for his judgement of a democratic free society that is not a monolithic theocracy?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The NT tells us to pray for the leaders and to obey those that have rule over us. We are also told that we are a light set on a hill. This implies that God intends to be Lord over all the Earth, not just the Christians, and that "every knee will bow".

We should be a light on the hill. Are we? Is that what the world sees when they see Christians? And of course every knee will bow. When do you think that will take place?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

One might even argue that the arrogance of the U.S. leadership was precisely because they were deluded into the notion of 'American exceptionalism'. I remember hearing George W. Bush conclude a speech to Congress by solemnly intoning, "And may God bless America!" and watching Congress as they rose in a frenzy of huzzahs. This was during one of his speeches preparing them to rubber-stamp his invasion plans of Iraq.

What do you mean "one might"? That is precisely what the speech argued. His point was the 9/11 was the harbinger of God's judgment and instead of repentance the response was defiance. Same as Israel did many years ago.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What does any of this have to do with the message that this thread linked to, or to the book?

Cahn's message was on how 9/11 was a warning from God that was not heeded. My point on President Bush and the U.S. Congress invoking God's blessing as they prepared to invade Iraq was to show how they didn't hear the warning and repent. Quite the opposite.

9/11 was surely a wake-up call. I pray for the leaders of the U.S., and also for the leaders and the people of Germany and Japan and Haiti. Others may pray for Canada and Denmark, I don't know. If the story of a sycamore tree helps someone pray, wonderful. Everyone needs stories to make sense of the world.

BTW, I told a story of watching the smoke rise from the World Trade Center site in September 2001 and remembering the scene in Revelation 18, where the merchants stand off and wail as they watch the smoke as the city burns. Their riches have come to naught in one stroke. That also could have applied to Rome in 410 when the Visigoths sacked it. Or Tokyo when it was firebombed by U.S. B-29s. Etc.

Maybe that also was Cahn's point. Anyway, he sold a lot of copies of his book so I'm sure someone got helped.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And after all, God does love republicans and sinners (aka democrats.)

Nice, Ohio. Real nice!