A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us

[Cal]

OBW,

I love you brother and I appreciate your intelligence and contributions here. But I have to say that sometimes you bring to mind Oscar Wilde's definition of a cynic: a person who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Of course, that's a little harsh. I just said it brought it to mind. Not that you totally fit the description.

My feeling about the whole matter is this:

If what it takes to get people to pray is for someone to compare us to Israel and cajole us into believing we'll get a blessing much like we'd get if we had a contract with God like Israel and lived up to it--then I say more power to him.

The fact is if you obey God you will be blessed in many ways. Yes, we should expect persecution and suffering. But we should also expect blessing. God promised if we sought the kingdom first, our needs would be taken care of. That's a blessing. He told us if we had to lose our family to be faithful to him, he would replace it in this life and the next with many more people. That's a blessing.

The whole Bible is full of general declarations, both to people and nations, that if you follow God you will be blessed and taken care of, and if you don't you should not be surprised when you find yourself in a bad place.

Suppose America did have a turn to God. And suppose we did reap a blessing because of that. Is that so far-fetched? And if it did happen, what would be the point of continuing the academic argument that, no, technically we did not have a contract with God exactly like Israel's, even though the resultant blessing from obedience sure made it look like we did?

[OBW]

Igzy,

I think that cynic is not the right term, but it is not far off. I am skeptical. Not in a "debunking" way, but in a "show me why it is so" kind of way. There is plenty of proof for a lot.

Originally Posted by Igzy

My feeling about the whole matter is this:

Originally Posted by Igzy

If what it takes to get people to pray is for someone to compare us to Israel and cajole us into believing we'll get a blessing much like we'd get if we had a contract with God like Israel and lived up to it--then I say more power to him.

The fact is if you obey God you will be blessed in many ways.

This is generally true. And it is the people who obey God who receive this benefit. And obedience starts with belief. Now blessing on the believers may spill over to those around them. That is a wonderful position to be in as a non-believer — getting some overflow of the blessings God is bestowing on His people.

And I agree that sometimes it is like when Paul referred to those who were preaching the gospel for the purpose of making the authorities angry and taking it out on Paul (who they had in prison). As Paul said, the gospel got preached.

My concerns (and skepticism) are not pointed at We the Believers waking up from our slumber and complacency and repenting and praying like we always should. It is at an overlay of belief that causes the repentance to be for the sins of others and the prayer to be perpetually aimed at problems others are having.

Surely we are to pray for others and for their problems. But that is not the primary thrust of our prayer and repentance. The primary thrust should be related to our worship of God, to prayer for his will and kingdom, for our needs, in repentance for our errors in conjunction with our forgiveness of those who have wronged us, and our prayer for deliverance from evil and temptation. Sounds somehow familiar.

And it does not include a prayer of repentance for errors that are not ours.

We each spent some of our lives engaged with a system that insisted that everything that was outside of their version of "truth" was a waste of time. Throwing that off is not simply accepting that nothing is a waste of time or a misdirection. If we are encouraged to truly follow a different error, then we become lead by someone building with wood hay and stubble. If my assessment of the thrust of this whole thing is correct, Cahn is building with those poor materials. Now we are not the builders but the building. The "tried by fire" problem will be his. But that does not mean that we should not see the error and turn back to the truth.

The truth is about us believing in and obeying Christ. The result in this life is the fulfillment of the righteousness of the law. That righteous fulfillment is not in a nation, but in His people. Everywhere. We are here thinking that we need to pray some blessing back upon the nation. What about all those poor Christians who don't live in America? What is their lot in life? To be sojourners in a "foreign" land, looking for that city whose builder is God. And that city is not America.

All of our energies dwelling on the history of chapels and addresses is an effort in myths and genealogies. It does not result in God's economy, but in disputes. The answer is not to teach God's economy, but to teach what was taught by Jesus, none of which even hinted at this kind of emphasis in mental, physical, and/or spiritual energies on obtaining a blessing for a secular nation.

But you are right. This is enough. You complain that I push back at what has been put forward. I think I have just as legitimate a complaint that it was ever put forward. So the answer is to just let it go? To step aside and let nonsense continue because someone got their feelings hurt?

Someone gets their feelings hurt every time there is a significant difference of opinion about any of the issues discussed here. That is not the basis for silence.

But I have said enough. If there are no ears to hear, then so be it.

I can assure you that there are many Christians outside of this nation that absolutely do not want to see us get what this effort seeks. It means a renewed sense of national pride leading our efforts to Americanize the rest of the world, including their Christian experience. Just like Lee set out to make Christianity in America (and the rest of the world) look like what they created in China. Fortunately he failed. For our sakes, I hope this effort does as well.

Not that we don't return to regular repentance and regular prayer. Even habitual prayer and willful repentance at set times. That is a must.

But I need to repent for me. My errors are not about America. How I live out this life that is now within me is my desperate need. Whether the laws of America allow prayer in public schools has nothing to do with it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Igzy,

I think that cynic is not the right term, but it is not far off. I am skeptical. Not in a "debunking" way, but in a "show me why it is so" kind of way. There is plenty of proof for a lot.
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]This is generally true. And it is the people who obey God who receive this benefit. And obedience starts with belief. Now blessing on the believers may spill over to those around them. That is a wonderful position to be in as a non-believer — getting some overflow of the blessings God is bestowing on His people.

And I agree that sometimes it is like when Paul referred to those who were preaching the gospel for the purpose of making the authorities angry and taking it out on Paul (who they had in prison). As Paul said, the gospel got preached.

My concerns (and skepticism) are not pointed at We the Believers waking up from our slumber and complacency and repenting and praying like we always should. It is at an overlay of belief that causes the repentance to be for the sins of others and the prayer to be perpetually aimed at problems others are having.

Surely we are to pray for others and for their problems. But that is not the primary thrust of our prayer and repentance. The primary thrust should be related to our worship of God, to prayer for his will and kingdom, for our needs, in repentance for our errors in conjunction with our forgiveness of those who have wronged us, and our prayer for deliverance from evil and temptation. Sounds somehow familiar.

And it does not include a prayer of repentance for errors that are not ours.

Do you agree with the teaching that Christians are going to rule over cities in the next age?

If you do agree then do you agree that Christians are being trained to rule in this age?

One other question, what part of "of the people, by the people and for the people" exonerates you from being responsible?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Do you agree with the teaching that Christians are going to rule over cities in the next age?

If you do agree then do you agree that Christians are being trained to rule in this age?

One other question, what part of "of the people, by the people and for the people" exonerates you from being responsible?

I agree that there is an aspect of ruling in the next age. Or at least something that is best described as such.

But there is nothing in what I can read in scripture that indicates that our "efforts" here on earth are designed to train us for the age to come in that manner. I do not agree that we are simply being trained to "rule," especially in this age. In fact, I find plenty to tell me that we are not here for this world, to rule it or otherwise, other than to be salt and light, not movers and shakers.

As for the general statement that the government of the US is "of the people, by the people, and for the people" I do not find that I am responsible, but rather invited to participate. And even to the extent that I might take on responsibility with respect to some part of it, that does not make the "spiritual" aspect of that part my "responsibility" outside of my own personal exercise of spirituality.

Phrasing your argument as you did might work on the simpleminded. But it presupposes that Christians in America are being groomed to rule over cities. I guess all the rest of the poor Christian schmucks in the world are being groomed to rule over hovels and cattle stalls. They surely will never get the opportunity to be part of "of, by, and for the people," therefore lacking in training for ruling a city.

Or is it the character of those who will eventually rule rather than training in ruling that matters?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

I agree that there is an aspect of ruling in the next age. Or at least something that is best described as such.

But there is nothing in what I can read in scripture that indicates that our "efforts" here on earth are designed to train us for the age to come in that manner. I do not agree that we are simply being trained to "rule," especially in this age. In fact, I find plenty to tell me that we are not here for this world, to rule it or otherwise, other than to be salt and light, not movers and shakers.

As for the general statement that the government of the US is "of the people, by the people, and for the people" I do not find that I am responsible, but rather invited to participate. And even to the extent that I might take on responsibility with respect to some part of it, that does not make the "spiritual" aspect of that part my "responsibility" outside of my own personal exercise of spirituality.

Phrasing your argument as you did might work on the simpleminded. But it presupposes that Christians in America are being groomed to rule over cities. I guess all the rest of the poor Christian schmucks in the world are being groomed to rule over hovels and cattle stalls. They surely will never get the opportunity to be part of "of, by, and for the people," therefore lacking in training for ruling a city.

Or is it the character of those who will eventually rule rather than training in ruling that matters?

Fair enough, in this age Christians are supposed to be Light and Salt, let's work with that.

I thought Cahn's message was both light and salt.

Please explain why it you thought it wasn't.

The United States has a constitution which explains how laws are made in this country. For 7 men to short circuit that and say that one of the inalienable rights mentioned in the constitution is the right to kill your baby and keep that private is outrageous. There is no "right to an abortion" in the constitution. Why isn't shining a light on this considered "light"?

Salt kills germs. Isn't creeping fornication a germ? Isn't a society that exterminates 50 billion babies a "germ". Why shouldn't a word against this be considered "salt"?

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Salt kills germs. Isn't creeping fornication a germ? Isn't a society that exterminates 50 billion babies a "germ". Why shouldn't a word against this be considered "salt"?

That wasn't the only part of his message but OK...how would YOU write the laws against fornication and abortion? Please give us something concrete to work with!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It is cut and dry. There is no constitutional protection for abortion. Therefore the constitution is very clear, this is a matter for the States to decide. Each state should pass their own law. The Supreme court is not a legislative body, and the idea that abortion is protected by the constitution as a right to privacy is as ugly a lie as you could dredge up from the pit of hell.

Every state already has laws in place. If Roe ever were overturned, then all these state laws would once again be in effect.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I thought Cahn's message was both light and salt.

Please explain why it you thought it wasn't.

It doesn't qualify because it is not for the world, but for the church. But as such it is misdirecting us toward something that doesn't exist. It is aimed at eliminating certain sins from the public so that America can once again be blessed. (I disagree that the kind of position of being blessed ever existed, but that is his position.)

Salt and light is about us being God's image on the earth. Whether America is what Cahn thinks it ought to be, or is more like China in the darkest days of Communism, or Iran right now is totally irrelevant to us being salt and light.

If there is a need to repent and pray, it is for us to repent and pray concerning ourselves. We cannot repent for others or pray them into righteousness any more than we can pray them out of a Catholic purgatory. We can pray that the Spirit will work on people to open their eyes.

But if our goal is a blessed America, then it is a misguided goal. It makes America an idol. The idea seems so appealing. But it is making the improvement of our natural lives the center of our call to pray. If we get moved to pray beyond our own pitiful state, we should be praying for our willingness to live the justice that is commanded of us.

Instead, we are putting our prayer and efforts into fighting the sins of the world like abortions, gay marriage, etc. As I have said before, we are happy to suggest in song that they can come to God "Just as I Am" but we are otherwise going to insist that they straighten up or go to jail.

Now that is a position that exemplifies the Christianity that is demanding the return of the "Christian nation." It is not the Christianity that I believe we are called to by God and his Word.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

It doesn't qualify because it is not for the world, but for the church.

What? When the Lord said "let your light shine" that was for the church and not for the world? When He said to the disciples "you are a light set on a hill" that was for the church to see not the world? Likewise with the salt? You appear to have a completely different Bible from me. Did I misunderstand? Did you misspeak? Please explain.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

If there is a need to repent and pray, it is for us to repent and pray concerning ourselves. We cannot repent for others or pray them into righteousness any more than we can pray them out of a Catholic purgatory. We can pray that the Spirit will work on people to open their eyes.

You can't have it both ways. If you want the US to be a free democracy with a government by the people, for the people and of the people. Then the people must bear responsibility for that government and those laws. You and I are responsible for the laws of this land. Now, if like Ghandi you were light and salt you are not responsible for the actions of British imperialism. You are responsible for your response to those actions.

I have never suggested. nor did Cahn, that we are to repent on behalf of the director of Planned Parenthood. You have created this pathetic little straw man.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

My concerns (and skepticism) are not pointed at We the Believers waking up from our slumber and complacency and repenting and praying like we always should. It is at an overlay of belief that causes the repentance to be for the sins of others and the prayer to be perpetually aimed at problems others are having.

Surely we are to pray for others and for their problems. But that is not the primary thrust of our prayer and repentance. The primary thrust should be related to our worship of God, to prayer for his will and kingdom, for our needs, in repentance for our errors in conjunction with our forgiveness of those who have wronged us, and our prayer for deliverance from evil and temptation. Sounds somehow familiar.

I can't take on your whole post because I don't have time. But I do want to take issue with this because to me its exemplary of what to me seems an error you make sometimes.

I guess I would call it an error of categorization--calling something one thing for the sake of argument when it could just as easily been called something else. In this case you are categorizing prayer for others as some kind of penance in their name.

I do not see that our prays for others and their repentance is a secondary type of prayer, even if they seem to include this kind of proxy repentance. To me praying that God's kingdom come and praying for repentance in others are very much the same thing. Where is God's kingdom to come but in the hearts of people? Angels streaming from heaven in glory with the Son of Man is the ultimate result of the the kingdom coming. But I think when Jesus said pray that God's kingdom come he wasn't talking about that, he was talking about the hearts of people repenting and submitting to God.

Now if you meant that our prayers are no ultimate substitute for the repentance of others, I agree. But at the same time an attitude of heartbreak and prayer because of the sins of others is not a bad thing. In fact, the Bible depicts this as a practice of Job.

'When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have [his children] purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.' Job 1:5

But, again, I think your attitude toward prayer is a little wrongheaded. I think praying for people and their problems (their problems of sin) is top shelf stuff. Otherwise, what do you mean by "your kingdom come?" Angels streaming in glory? That sounds a little like the LRC spiritualized indifference you often decry.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

The truth is about us believing in and obeying Christ. The result in this life is the fulfillment of the righteousness of the law. That righteous fulfillment is not in a nation, but in His people. Everywhere. We are here thinking that we need to pray some blessing back upon the nation. What about all those poor Christians who don't live in America? What is their lot in life? To be sojourners in a "foreign" land, looking for that city whose builder is God. And that city is not America.

I just found some more time

I agree with this. God is not a respecter of people. He could just as easily use any other nation, group or individual. Whoever will may come.

Yet... the fact is it does happen in some places, groups or individuals... and not others. And when it does, God calls those involved... chosen.

So saying the USA is chosen is no different than saying the LRC is chosen. It depends on what you mean by it. On the one hand, whoever will may come. On the other hand, some do and some don't. And God says the one who do come are chosen. What does that mean? I like to think it means glory to God.

But if you come and then become lazy and corrupt again and then rest on your "chosen-ness," let alone your "uniqueness" () then that is folly and hubris. That's what the LRC did and that's what the USA has done.

It's an honor to be chosen by God, but that doesn't justify an attitude of arrogant entitlement.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

But you are right. This is enough. You complain that I push back at what has been put forward. I think I have just as legitimate a complaint that it was ever put forward. So the answer is to just let it go? To step aside and let nonsense continue because someone got their feelings hurt?

Someone gets their feelings hurt every time there is a significant difference of opinion about any of the issues discussed here. That is not the basis for silence.

But I have said enough. If there are no ears to hear, then so be it.

You just keep pushing back. That's okay. And I'll keep telling you when I think you are being too academic. Deal?

Originally Posted by OBW

I can assure you that there are many Christians outside of this nation that absolutely do not want to see us get what this effort seeks. It means a renewed sense of national pride leading our efforts to Americanize the rest of the world, including their Christian experience. Just like Lee set out to make Christianity in America (and the rest of the world) look like what they created in China. Fortunately he failed. For our sakes, I hope this effort does as well.

I disagree with your assertion that God has no words for nations as wholes. The OT is full of them.

I think you heard something he didn't say. I just see a man trying to speak to a nation as a nation about Biblical principles. I don't see a man trying to stir up nationalism.

[alwayslearning]

What I find particularly odd is tying the U.S. to the OT nation of Israel. The Church was born and thrived under persecution in the cauldron of the pagan Greco-Roman world. I'm happy that the U.S. has been influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition but I'm under no delusions about what the State is and what it's interests are. It has been wisely said that "The church as a tool is a church of fools." Anytime the State tries to co-opts the church into it's agenda I grow wary. And the more the politicians shout about "family values" and "I'm a Christian vote for me!" the more I tell myself to let's wait and see.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

What I find particularly odd is tying the U.S. to the OT nation of Israel. The Church was born and thrived under persecution in the cauldron of the pagan Greco-Roman world. I'm happy that the U.S. has been influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition but I'm under no delusions about what the State is and what it's interests are. It has been wisely said that "The church as a tool is a church of fools." Anytime the State tries to co-opts the church into it's agenda I grow wary. And the more the politicians shout about "family values" and "I'm a Christian vote for me!" the more I tell myself to let's wait and see.

Do you find it odd that Christians would have a prayer breakfast on the morning of the inauguration to pray for blessings for this country?

If not, what is odd about discussing the God who you are praying to? Since it is God who raises Kingdoms and causes others to fall doesn't it make sense to understand the basis for his judgment (which includes blessing)? Israel was blessed by God and they were also judged, isn't that a strong basis to say that if God is going to bless you then he might also discipline you as well?

The NT tells us to pray for the leaders and to obey those that have rule over us. We are also told that we are a light set on a hill. This implies that God intends to be Lord over all the Earth, not just the Christians, and that "every knee will bow". Since when did Christians become so limp wristed that they could justify shutting their eyes and ears to all unrighteousness?

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Since it is God who raises Kingdoms and causes others to fall doesn't it make sense to understand the basis for his judgment (which includes blessing)? Israel was blessed by God and they were also judged, isn't that a strong basis to say that if God is going to bless you then he might also discipline you as well?

What is the basis for his judgement of a democratic free society that is not a monolithic theocracy?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The NT tells us to pray for the leaders and to obey those that have rule over us. We are also told that we are a light set on a hill. This implies that God intends to be Lord over all the Earth, not just the Christians, and that "every knee will bow".

We should be a light on the hill. Are we? Is that what the world sees when they see Christians? And of course every knee will bow. When do you think that will take place?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

What is the basis for his judgement of a democratic free society that is not a monolithic theocracy?

We are his creation. The same basis by which Egypt was judged. God is the father of the fatherless. The Egyptians killed the babies of the Israelites, God comes in and judges their first born. The same basis by which all governments are judged, based on the covenant with Noah. Government is responsible to deal with murder in a responsible way. If they fail to do so they will break the covenant. God said that killing babies was something He had not even imagined. It was the basis for taking the good land from the inhabitants and giving it to Israel. This "democratic free" society has legalized the assembly line slaughter of 50 million babies (oh yeah, right, they never did legalize that, 7 men said it would be OK, which really means it was decided by 3 of those men. These 7 men were never elected and they do not represent anyone but themselves. Had this been decided by a "democratically elected government" it would never have been legalized. Since when is a vote by 7 men to decide to kill 50 million babies the act of a "democratic free society").

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

We should be a light on the hill. Are we? Is that what the world sees when they see Christians? And of course every knee will bow. When do you think that will take place?

What is your point? I understand the statement that "every knee shall bow" to mean, better to bow your knee now than wait till later.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

We are his creation. The same basis by which Egypt was judged. God is the father of the fatherless. The Egyptians killed the babies of the Israelites, God comes in and judges their first born. The same basis by which all governments are judged, based on the covenant with Noah. Government is responsible to deal with murder in a responsible way. If they fail to do so they will break the covenant. God said that killing babies was something He had not even imagined. It was the basis for taking the good land from the inhabitants and giving it to Israel. This "democratic free" society has legalized the assembly line slaughter of 50 million babies (oh yeah, right, they never did legalize that, 7 men said it would be OK, which really means it was decided by 3 of those men. These 7 men were never elected and they do not represent anyone but themselves. Had this been decided by a "democratically elected government" it would never have been legalized. Since when is a vote by 7 men to decide to kill 50 million babies the act of a "democratic free society").

Anything else?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What is your point? I understand the statement that "every knee shall bow" to mean, better to bow your knee now than wait till later.

Now is obviously better than later but when will every knee bow?

[awareness]

I think something bad is going to happen. I can feel it. It can't stay good forever. We are bad, bad, bad, so bad, and deserve to be spanked.

Since Nell asked what was predicted I decided to go back over the thread to maybe pluck some predictions out. So I started out at post #1, where Jane is sharing some kind of burden, or thing, and a video, that "moved her to her core."

So what the heck, I thought, I'll just watch the video again. The link now says something to the effect of "this video has been pulled by provider." Anyway, I found it elsewhere, and started watching it. I'm about 6 minutes in and I can already see thru this preacher. His opening prayer begs for a Prophetic Word, and for him to be faithful to sound the alarm. He's a gifted pitchman. He reminds me of Max Rappaport, in his heyday in the LC.

However, I think I can see what's troubling him, and likely Thankful Jane as well. Cahn is speaking back in Feb. 2013. He's saying Israel lost it's God, its founder, and became vulgar; and God judged her for it. And the same thing is happening in America, and WILL happen to America.

That's the prediction Nell is asking for.

Well looky, looky. Here it is 2015. And the Supreme's ruled that same sex marriage is legal in all 50 states. Talk about a harbinger. Cahn was surely answering the call and sounding the alarm.

Then, ring in the 4 blood moons, and surely that is the timing of God's coming judgement upon America.

There you have it. The prediction you asked for.

Still watching and waiting.

Can't you feel it? Something bad is gonna happen. And America deserves it. If God doesn't judge America He's gonna have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

One might even argue that the arrogance of the U.S. leadership was precisely because they were deluded into the notion of 'American exceptionalism'. I remember hearing George W. Bush conclude a speech to Congress by solemnly intoning, "And may God bless America!" and watching Congress as they rose in a frenzy of huzzahs. This was during one of his speeches preparing them to rubber-stamp his invasion plans of Iraq.

What do you mean "one might"? That is precisely what the speech argued. His point was the 9/11 was the harbinger of God's judgment and instead of repentance the response was defiance. Same as Israel did many years ago.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What does any of this have to do with the message that this thread linked to, or to the book?

Cahn's message was on how 9/11 was a warning from God that was not heeded. My point on President Bush and the U.S. Congress invoking God's blessing as they prepared to invade Iraq was to show how they didn't hear the warning and repent. Quite the opposite.

9/11 was surely a wake-up call. I pray for the leaders of the U.S., and also for the leaders and the people of Germany and Japan and Haiti. Others may pray for Canada and Denmark, I don't know. If the story of a sycamore tree helps someone pray, wonderful. Everyone needs stories to make sense of the world.

BTW, I told a story of watching the smoke rise from the World Trade Center site in September 2001 and remembering the scene in Revelation 18, where the merchants stand off and wail as they watch the smoke as the city burns. Their riches have come to naught in one stroke. That also could have applied to Rome in 410 when the Visigoths sacked it. Or Tokyo when it was firebombed by U.S. B-29s. Etc.

Maybe that also was Cahn's point. Anyway, he sold a lot of copies of his book so I'm sure someone got helped.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And after all, God does love republicans and sinners (aka democrats.)

Nice, Ohio. Real nice!