A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

That could e right. But he was building up to it through this point. It makes the tolerance for continued listening difficult. If the first part was not necessary to get to his "point" then I might try to skip forward to some relevant part later. Can someone give me a reasonable time marker to skip forward to? I'm willing to give it a chance.

You could have been finished by now.

[Paul Cox]

If you get caught up on the particulars of whether or not America is a modern day Israel, you miss a very important point. Those things aside, we can't deny that the Lord causes certain kings to rise and others to fall. This in an indisputable fact. If a nation, such as England or the United States of America, has been so widely used to spread the gospel, because they opened their hearts to God in their founding principles, then certainly the Lord will deal with them in a disciplinary way when they wander from those principles.
A brother shared something with me the other night that was very enlightening. He said that we Christians need to move away from activism, and towards prayers. It was always through repentance and prayer that the Lord was able to turn the heart of a nation.
Christians have never been more politically active than they are right now, and yet it seems that one election cycle after another, and one Supreme Court session after another evil continues to prevail.
When listening to the Lord we need to be saved from being so intellectual and intelligent. That is one thing that I appreciate about being delivered from the Local Church. They shout "spirit, spirit," but in fact, their religion is ALL in the head. Sometimes when you are talking to them, and share some real light, they seem stunned that it wasn't in the body of Witness Lee head knowledge that was drilled into them. They don't know what to do with it.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

...It was always through repentance and prayer that the Lord was able to turn the heart of a nation.

Yes and yes. This is what the Lord has really put on my heart the last few years. Political and social change follows change in the hearts of men. I heard two men interviewed last year (names escape me at the moment, but one was an evangelical and the other a Catholic priest) who were collaborating to write a book that shows how government and society always tend downward until there is a spiritual revival. Their book documents that in history everytime government and society have improved it has been because a spiritual revival occurred first. Spiritual revival comes when people genuinely repent from sin and turn back to God. This is what I have been praying for mostly--that the Spirit will come like the latter rain to "convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment" and that men will repent and turn back to God. I've also been praying the Lord's prayer that His kingdom come, that it be on earth as it IS in heaven.

The end result for me of the message by Jonathan Cahn (and I heard him interviewed expressing his hope of this for hearers) was that I was freshly awakened to the need, even the absolute necessity, that God's people begin to pray day and night for such repentance.

Please, to any who have not taken time to listen to his message, do so as soon as you can. You will be surprised at what he shares. It is not a general "judgment is coming" type message. Cahn makes it plain that God is speaking through undeniable biblical signs (a few of which he points out in his message and they are stunning) in these last days... things that show how very real and involved God is in modern day times.

I am about half way through his book, The Harbinger, and would say it is a must read. Will people listen? I am afraid that most people will be much like God's people of old who shut their ears to the voices of the prophets that God sent to warn them and turn them so He could restore them.

I agree with Ohio that this is the closest I have ever come to hearing a prophet. I do not believe he had any agenda but to deliver a message that would shake us to the core and cause us to begin to bow our knees as if everything depended on it, for indeed I think it does.

Thankful Jane

[alwayslearning]

I was able to listen to his entire talk this morning. I don't think his passion can be disputed however I disagree with his underlying premise i.e. America was once a blessed nation because it was founded on eternal and heavenly principles and consecrated to God/Jesus and is losing (or has lost) that blessing under God's judgment for our sinful ways. And that the Twin Tower attack and more recent economic turn down are signs of this judgment. I think this is a very selective view of American history.

In actuality the nation was founded upon 3 strands of tradition: Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment. Many of the founders were Deists not Christians. They belonged to Masonic Lodges. Several had mistresses. Most owned slaves. But they were also quite smart and learned. Drawing on these traditions and adding in their own insights they were able to put together the documents and framework and begin building the institutions of a new nation. This was messy work at best as one finds out when they dig into the archives to see how the sausage was made - so to speak.

Whenever I hear that America has sinned and is under God's judgment and needs to turn back to Him (not an unusual theme) I always wonder 2 things:

1. At what time were we as a nation turned to God in the first place? What is the benchmark?

2. What would this look like in practical application today? How would American society actually function and operate once it "turned back to God"?

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

In actuality the nation was founded upon 3 strands of tradition: Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment. Many of the founders were Deists not Christians.

A lot of people believe that. A lot of Christians believe that. This is what Americans have been told since the mid-sixties now... that must mean it's right, right?

How do you know that is the truth? Do you think "the world" (speaking Biblically) might have an agenda to make you believe this? To push Christianity (and more importantly, Christ) so far out of the picture that your president can address the Muslim world from Cairo and say "America is NOT a Christian nation."?

"History is written by the victors" - and "the world", with it's "god of this age", is apparently reigning victorious across the globe. The world does indeed have an agenda, and we need to be armed with knowledge of the Truth if we are to overcome it.

Have any of you heard of "The Truth Project"? My wife and I are going through it with another couple from our church on Monday nights. Amazing teaching - it's all about the "Biblical worldview: God's view on everything". It is published by Focus on the Family, and honestly, it will just open your eyes to so much of the deception and strategies of the devil today.... It's not available for general purchase unless you go through the training on it (but it's offered to churches, or to lay people, if you wish to take the training on-line). It's not cheap, not hokey - it's a real honest, deep look at the world around us and the lies that have been told to us. It equips people in a way I have never seen done before; it's for adults, but kids really need to see it too... I can't do it justice.

Anyway, I want to recommend it. Lesson Ten (where we were at last week) was on "The American Experiment". It was absolutely heart-breaking how far - how very far - America has fallen. I don't say this to condemn, I'm Canadian - but Canada is more corrupt than your nation yet is... the only difference is, we never had your foundation. We never rose to your heights.

Here are the trailers for these lessons - I can't say more strongly that this is something every Christian should see. Trailers for the lessons are HERE.

You can learn about the Truth Project HERE.

PS: I KNOW I recommend a lot of sites and readings - if you never look at ANYTHING I suggest, please - just this once, look at this. It is truly timely teaching.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

A lot of people believe that. A lot of Christians believe that. This is what Americans have been told since the mid-sixties now... that must mean it's right, right?

How do you know that is the truth? Do you think "the world" (speaking Biblically) might have an agenda to make you believe this? To push Christianity (and more importantly, Christ) so far out of the picture that your president can address the Muslim world from Cairo and say "America is NOT a Christian nation."?

I know it's the truth because I have studied it at length and in depth and I recommend you do the same.

And America is not a Christian nation and neither is it a theocracy. It is a secular nation that legally protects the freedom of religion and conscience. Not just the Christian religion - any religion.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I know it's the truth because I have studied it at length and in depth and I recommend you do the same.

And America is not a Christian nation and neither is it a theocracy. It is a secular nation that legally protects the freedom of religion and conscience. Not just the Christian religion - any religion.

it was mainly Christian men, (and there were many of them), not secular men, who were the source of the form of government we have today, one that "legally protects the freedom of religion and conscience. Not just the Christian religion - any religion."

In your studies, did you by any chance look at the work of David Barton (Wallbuilders.com)? He is a historian who has surfaced, studied, and made available to the public many historical documents by many of the founding fathers. In so doing, he has brought to light hidden truth about the founding of America which has been purposely obscured by the god of this age, as NeitherFirstNorLast mentioned.

Here is a link with some of the quotes from documents he has brought to light: http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...es.asp?id=8755.

Would to God that we had such men in high governmental positions today.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

In actuality the nation was founded upon 3 strands of tradition: Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment.

I once read a more compelling historical argument that our three branches of government were modeled after the prevailing church structures of the time. The best features of the Congregationalist, Presbyterian, and Anglican churches steered the formation of congress, the judiciary, and the executive branches.

I tend to believe that church ecclesiology had a little more impact on our founding fathers than Greek and Roman cultures.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I once read a more compelling historical argument that our three branches of government were modeled after the prevailing church structures of the time. The best features of the Congregationalist, Presbyterian, and Anglican churches steered the formation of congress, the judiciary, and the executive branches.

I tend to believe that church ecclesiology had a little more impact on our founding fathers than Greek and Roman cultures.

Sorry due to time restraints I didn't mention a few steps. On the separation of powers the Founders were most influenced by the French political philosopher of the Enlightenment era Montesquieu and especially his work The Spirit of Laws who in turn was influenced by the Greek Polybius who did a history on the Roman Republic. Most of the Founders were well acquainted with Montesquieu's work and Madison in the Federalist Papers said this: "The oracle who is always consulted and cited on this subject, is the celebrated Montesquieu."

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I was able to listen to his entire talk this morning. I don't think his passion can be disputed however I disagree with his underlying premise i.e. America was once a blessed nation because it was founded on eternal and heavenly principles and consecrated to God/Jesus and is losing (or has lost) that blessing under God's judgment for our sinful ways. And that the Twin Tower attack and more recent economic turn down are signs of this judgment. I think this is a very selective view of American history.

The premise that America was founded on eternal and heavenly principles and consecrated to God is taken verbatim from Washington's inaugural speech and the prayer that took place later at St. Paul's chapel as a consecration, the same site that the Twin Towers were located at. Of course this is a very selective view of American history I think that is obvious to everyone.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

In actuality the nation was founded upon 3 strands of tradition: Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment. Many of the founders were Deists not Christians. They belonged to Masonic Lodges. Several had mistresses. Most owned slaves. But they were also quite smart and learned. Drawing on these traditions and adding in their own insights they were able to put together the documents and framework and begin building the institutions of a new nation. This was messy work at best as one finds out when they dig into the archives to see how the sausage was made - so to speak.

This is the straw man argument. His reference was clearly to the Mayflower compact. You are referring to the US constitution and the founding fathers. He was referring to an event 150 years prior to this. None of those on the Mayflower were "deists", they did not set out with three strands, and they didn't own slaves. You have substituted what he said for what you wanted him to say.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Whenever I hear that America has sinned and is under God's judgment and needs to turn back to Him (not an unusual theme) I always wonder 2 things:

1. At what time were we as a nation turned to God in the first place? What is the benchmark?

2. What would this look like in practical application today? How would American society actually function and operate once it "turned back to God"?

1. He provided this in his speech. "“America would become the most blessed nation on Earth, a refuge for the exiles, a light for the oppressed. A beacon against the dark forces of tyranny.” If you look at the verses I provided you can see there is a very strong Biblical basis to say that these things would be characteristics of a nation blessed by God.

2. I think, based on his speech, that it is safe to say that America would stop killing millions of babies a year. That would be a good start.

[alwayslearning]

Escapedfromthecurse have you listened to his entire talk and read this entire thread yet?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Escapedfromthecurse have you listened to his entire talk and read this entire thread yet?

I think this question would qualify as pontificating.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

You could have been finished by now.

I've been out of town with poor internet reception and working long hours. Your presumption about my time is insulting.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

I've been out of town with poor internet reception and working long hours. Your presumption about my time is insulting.

Sorry. Not my intention.