A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

A lot of people believe that. A lot of Christians believe that. This is what Americans have been told since the mid-sixties now... that must mean it's right, right?

How do you know that is the truth? Do you think "the world" (speaking Biblically) might have an agenda to make you believe this? To push Christianity (and more importantly, Christ) so far out of the picture that your president can address the Muslim world from Cairo and say "America is NOT a Christian nation."?

I know it's the truth because I have studied it at length and in depth and I recommend you do the same.

And America is not a Christian nation and neither is it a theocracy. It is a secular nation that legally protects the freedom of religion and conscience. Not just the Christian religion - any religion.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I know it's the truth because I have studied it at length and in depth and I recommend you do the same.

And America is not a Christian nation and neither is it a theocracy. It is a secular nation that legally protects the freedom of religion and conscience. Not just the Christian religion - any religion.

it was mainly Christian men, (and there were many of them), not secular men, who were the source of the form of government we have today, one that "legally protects the freedom of religion and conscience. Not just the Christian religion - any religion."

In your studies, did you by any chance look at the work of David Barton (Wallbuilders.com)? He is a historian who has surfaced, studied, and made available to the public many historical documents by many of the founding fathers. In so doing, he has brought to light hidden truth about the founding of America which has been purposely obscured by the god of this age, as NeitherFirstNorLast mentioned.

Here is a link with some of the quotes from documents he has brought to light: http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...es.asp?id=8755.

Would to God that we had such men in high governmental positions today.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

it was mainly Christian men, (and there were many of them), not secular men, who were the source of the form of government we have today, one that "legally protects the freedom of religion and conscience. Not just the Christian religion - any religion."

Yes they were mostly "Christian" men (depending on how that is defined) who designed the form of government we have today. Christian men who were informed by the Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment traditions. E.g. democracy was from the Greek tradition.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

In your studies, did you by any chance look at the work of David Barton (Wallbuilders.com)? He is a historian who has surfaced, studied, and made available to the public many historical documents by many of the founding fathers. In so doing, he has brought to light hidden truth about the founding of America which has been purposely obscured by the god of this age, as NeitherFirstNorLast mentioned.

This is not hidden truth. It is documented and well known. But even if it was not well documented it would be common sense to surmise that many of the founding fathers would be Christians. What else would they be considering the history of the colonies?

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Here is a link with some of the quotes from documents he has brought to light: http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...es.asp?id=8755.

Would to God that we had such men in high governmental positions today.

Wonderful quotes now let's discuss a sampling of these men with a few more details added in:

1. Benjamin Franklin had an illegitimate son. He wrote a letter: "Advice to a Young Man on the Choice of Mistresses". And if Barton had continued the quote it would have shown that he was agnostic about the divinity of Christ.

2. Thomas Jefferson had illegitimate children. He composed the Jefferson Bible which cut out miracles and supernatural acts in the Gospels. And he taught that blacks were not equal to whites and if ever freed should be segregated from the superior whites.

3. Alexander Hamilton had a long term affair with a woman who's husband pimped her out to him for an annual fee which they obtained by blackmail i.e. pay us and we'll keep it quiet.

4. Gouverneur Morris who wrote large sections of the Constitution including the Preamble was a womanizer extraordinaire and even shared a mistress with Tallyrand when he was in France as the U.S. Ambassador.

I won't get into the details of how much Hamilton and Jefferson hated each other. Suffice it to say it was an ugly mess. And I won't discuss at length the vitriolic vicious rantings of John Adams against Hamilton - that "bastard brat of a Scottish peddler."

[bookworm]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Wonderful quotes now let's discuss a sampling of these men with a few more details added in:

1. Benjamin Franklin had an illegitimate son. He wrote a letter: "Advice to a Young Man on the Choice of Mistresses". And if Barton had continued the quote it would have shown that he was agnostic about the divinity of Christ.

2. Thomas Jefferson had illegitimate children. He composed the Jefferson Bible which cut out miracles and supernatural acts in the Gospels. And he taught that blacks were not equal to whites and if ever freed should be segregated from the superior whites.

3. Alexander Hamilton had a long term affair with a woman who's husband pimped her out to him for an annual fee which they obtained by blackmail i.e. pay us and we'll keep it quiet.

4. Gouverneur Morris who wrote large sections of the Constitution including the Preamble was a womanizer extraordinaire and even shared a mistress with Tallyrand when he was in France as the U.S. Ambassador.

I won't get into the details of how much Hamilton and Jefferson hated each other. Suffice it to say it was an ugly mess. And I won't discuss at length the vitriolic vicious rantings of John Adams against Hamilton - that "bastard brat of a Scottish peddler."

The book Fresh Wind Fresh Fire written by Pastor Jim Cymbala is well written. I was amazed by his reference to verses in Revelation 5:1-5. “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to break its seals?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look into it. So I began weeping bitterly because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. Then one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping! Look, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered; thus he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”
Then Cymbala goes on to point out how fallen Judah was (with Tamar) and King David (with Bathsheba) but out of this fallen humanity God brought forth a Savior for all mankind. We will never be worthy but Christ is our righteousness.
Pointing out human frailties does not diminish the work of God and the saving Power of Jesus Christ. The accuser of the brethren constantly points out the fallen nature of humanity but Jesus Christ came in the flesh to overcome sin and death. The fact that humans are fallen is not news to God and it does not diminish His power or His plans and our need to pray for His Kingdom to come, His will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by bookworm

Then Cymbala goes on to point out how fallen Judah was (with Tamar) and King David (with Bathsheba) but out of this fallen humanity God brought forth a Savior for all mankind. We will never be worthy but Christ is our righteousness.
Pointing out human frailties does not diminish the work of God and the saving Power of Jesus Christ. The accuser of the brethren constantly points out the fallen nature of humanity but Jesus Christ came in the flesh to overcome sin and death. The fact that humans are fallen is not news to God and it does not diminish His power or His plans and our need to pray for His Kingdom to come, His will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

I'm not sure what your post has to do with this thread unless you are suggesting in a democratic society that the moral character of leaders is irrelevant and should be covered up. Or in the case of Jefferson and Franklin that believing in the divinity of Christ is not a requirement for being a Christian.

I am addressing the position of Cahn that at one time America was a blessed nation and because of our sin is no longer (or is losing) this blessing. If I am understanding you correctly Cahn should not be pointing this sin out? Or it was OK for the founding fathers to sin but if we sin we will lose the blessing?

In any event in an earlier post I asked these question which adherents to Cahn's position (and others with the same theme) never seem to be able to answer:

1. At what time were we as a nation turned to God in the first place? What is the benchmark?

2. What would this look like in practical application today? How would American society actually function and operate once it "turned back to God"?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

...

1. At what time were we as a nation turned to God in the first place? What is the benchmark?

April 30, 1789.

We as a nation turned to God in in the first place in 1789 when our newly inaugurated leader turned to God. In George Washington's First Inaugural Address given on April 30, 1789, we as a nation were turned to God from the first day the United States of America existed as a nation.

"... since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained; ..."

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

...
2. What would this look like in practical application today? How would American society actually function and operate once it "turned back to God"?

That's a nobrainer.
a. Prayer would not be banned in public schools.
b. It would not be legal to murder unborn children.
c. Nativity scenes would not be banned in the courthouse square.
d. Scriptural truth would not be condemned as "hate" or "intolerant".
e. Scripture ingraved in stone on public buildings would be legal.
f. Students would be free to include prayer in their own graduation speeches without being harrassed.
etc., etc., etc.

Did I say that in an America "turned back to God" it would not be legal to murder unborn children?

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Nell

April 30, 1789.

We as a nation turned to God when our leaders turned to God. In George Washington's First Inaugural Address given on April 30, 1789, we as a nation were turned to God from the first day the United States of America existed as a nation.

"... since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained; ..."

So your position is that even though many of the founders were involved in sinful activity since Washington - a Masonic lodge member who was slated to become a Grandmaster - said the above somehow the nation was turned to God?

Originally Posted by Nell

That's a nobrainer.

a. Prayer would not be banned in public schools.
b. It would not be legal to murder unborn children.
c. Nativity scenes would not be banned in the courthouse square.
d. Scriptural truth would not be condemned as "hate" or "intolerant".
e. Scripture ingraved in stone on public buildings would be legal.
f. Students would be free to include prayer in their own graduation speeches without being harrassed.
etc., etc., etc.

So please tell us what the country was like when the above was not the case i.e. when the country was supposedly blessed by God. How did we treat the indigenous people groups? How did we treat black people? How about the Jazz Age? What was that like? How about the ruthlessness and corruption in which business was conducted? How about Christians persecuting each other e.g. Congregationalists hanging Quakers for their religious beliefs etc., etc, etc. If kids could pray in schools why was this happening? If nativity scenes were allowed on the courthouse square why was this happening?

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I'm not sure what your post has to do with this thread unless you are suggesting in a democratic society that the moral character of leaders is irrelevant and should be covered up. Or in the case of Jefferson and Franklin that believing in the divinity of Christ is not a requirement for being a Christian.

I am addressing the position of Cahn that at one time America was a blessed nation and because of our sin is no longer (or is losing) this blessing. If I am understanding you correctly Cahn should not be pointing this sin out? Or it was OK for the founding fathers to sin but if we sin we will lose the blessing?

No, you are not addressing the position of Cahn. This person has made it very clear he was not talking about Jefferson, Franklin or the founding fathers. Your assumption that this was the case was baseless. His quote in the speech was clearly referring to the Mayflower compact without any reference to the founding fathers at all, other than Washington's speech.

In his book, Harbinger, he states clearly he is not talking about the founding fathers, but rather to those who came 150 years earlier.