Can you dismiss WL's ministry because of his sins?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

To say that Witness Lee was not perfect is a smokescreen. Whether it is said to be a smokescreen on purpose or not is irrelevant to the fact that the statement itself veils the realities that we are faced with in the here and now.

Even the most diehard Local Churcher will readily proclaim that Witness Lee was not perfect. So? So he was not perfect. Next question. Who did he proclaim himself to be? Next question. Who do his followers proclaim that he was? How does what Lee said about himself match up with reality? How does what his followers proclaim about him match up with reality? This will get us to the heart of the matter, and this is what needs to be addressed. When faced with the unmentionable, deplorable actions of his son don't you all remember what Witness Lee said... "nobody is perfect!".

The title of the thread is not "Can you dismiss WL's ministry because he was not perfect". No sir.

Another poster made a comment that Witness Lee may have disqualified himself because he was "not clean". Of course what we get from a diehard Lee defender was "oh my God I can't believe they are now saying that Witness Lee was not saved!"

Thankful Jane can speak for herself, but the CLEAR connotation was that Witness Lee was living in an unrepentant state - As far as can be perceived from the outside this was absolutely true. The man was constantly trampling on those within and without the movement. He was caught misappropriating donated church funds on many occasions. He basically masterminded a substantial money-laundering scheme to defraud the government. He used the solicited donations of church members (some life savings) in a bungled business adventure in which everybody lost except himself and his sons.

All this, without one single apology. No apology. No repentance. Yes, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"(1 John 1:9) Notice the parts in bold. IF. CONFESS. SINS. IS FAITHFUL. TO CLEANSE. ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. To become clean from unrighteousness there is an IF. I don't see when and where Witness Lee completed the process.

Does this mean his entire ministry, the entire body of work, should be dismissed? No, probably not. But neither should he or his followers get a free pass to present Witness Lee as something he was not. Neither should they get a free pass to present his ministry as something that it was not. [/COLOR]

Let us consider an example I think that we can all agree on. David's sin was heinous, and after committing that sin there was a moment prior to the prophet coming to speak to him before he repented. However, before that sin he had done great works of faith, he had written a number of psalms that became part of the Bible. So the question is this, did the sin that David committed somehow annul his works of faith, perhaps put them into suspended animation, until he repented? I don't think so. I think what the Bible records is that "we have this treasure in earthen vessels". On the one hand David can write wonderful psalms and do great deeds, and then the very next day he can do a horrible sin, and it doesn't annul anything. When he was doing great deeds of faith he was a man of flesh. I think Igzy alluded to this when he said he thought it was sovereign that all of these great holy men of faith committed sins that were recorded so that we would realize they were all men of flesh.

So in the same way you cannot dismiss WL's work because "he was not clean" but that principle doesn't apply to others because they repented. There is no basis to say that if someone sins all previous works are dismissed. We are all well aware of WL's sins, failings and shortcomings. The question is if sinning is like hitting a "clear all" button on the computer and it wipes out everything you have ever done.

The closest I can see to this principle is that if you break a nazarite vow you have to start over. This doesn't mean that your hair doesn't grow back (your vow can be renewed) as in the case of Samson, nor does it mean that everything Samson had done previously was voided, it merely means that vow that he had was broken and he had to start again.

[UntoHim]

ZNP,
I really wish you would stop comparing Witness Lee to David. Don't you realize how silly it sounds? Why are you comparing somebody who was anointed King of Israel, a man that God Himself proclaimed to be "a man after my own heart", a man who God saw fit to place him in the lineage of the Lord Jesus, with some self-proclaimed apostle wannabe? And then you make matters worse by implying that Lee's writings are to be compared to the Psalms. It really makes you look silly and thoughtless, not to mention it's a little disconcerting, that after all that we know about Witness Lee, that you would still want to hold him up on such a pedestal.

Witness Lee (and us) are living in a completely different age then the Old Testament characters. God has given us more. He expects more. Especially from the leaders. The standard for God's testimony has risen. The stakes are higher. Unless you are a Jew you are not born as one of God's people. You must accept the Gospel in order to enter God's Kingdom. If we, as God's latter day people, fail to proclaim this Gospel, and fail to live our lives as citizens of His Kingdom, in many respects we have failed God. This is especially true of Christian leaders. How much the more for a leader of an entire movement. The standard is even higher. The stakes are even higher.

Did the public let Jim Bakker give the old "Oh David sinned and got away with it so...." excuse? Nah, he ended up in the gray bar hotel. Did the public let Ted Haggard off the hook just cause he had a vibrant megachurch and the ear of the President of the US? No Sir. These men sinned against their wifes, familys and God's people, and tried to hide it for a long time. They were unrepentant. God gave them both lots of chances. Along the way they probably did a lot of good for a lot of people. What was the price? They both lost their ministries. And they should have.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

ZNP,
I really wish you would stop comparing Witness Lee to David.

I am referring to Post #136 in the thread on the ground of the church. In that Post the contrast with WL and David is made. Cassidy took great offense at that post interpreting it to mean that it was a slight against the blood of Christ. You, Igzy and others commented on Cassidy's post. I felt that with all of the discussion on it I needed to quote the original post.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Don't you realize how silly sounds?

Of course I realize how silly this is. OBW accuses me of things that have absolutely no substantiation, things that if Zeek or Awareness had said they would have been booted from the forum. Many post things that are clearly off topic, yet all of a sudden you seem to care less about that. You pretend that you can't distinguish that my post was quoting a critical post to this thread. A post that clearly influenced the title of this thread. You also pretend that I am comparing David to WL when in fact I am evaluating the principle that was put forth in that post. I do not use WL since it is up for discussion whether he ever even had a ministry. No one disputes that David had a ministry so I applied the principle to him, just as the poster had done. So, yes I realize how silly it is for me to post on this forum. I also realize how silly it is to treat that other post seriously.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Why are you comparing somebody who was anointed King of Israel, a man that God Himself proclaimed to be "a man after my own heart", a man who God saw fit to place him in the lineage of the Lord Jesus, with some self-proclaimed apostle wannabe? And then you make matters worse by implying that Lee's writings are to be compared to the Psalms.

Ask Thankful Jane she posted it.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

It really makes you look silly and thoughtless, not to mention it's a little disconcerting, that after all that we know about Witness Lee, that you would still want to hold him up on such a pedestal.

What pedestal is that?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Witness Lee (and us) are living in a completely different age then the Old Testament characters. God have given us more. He expects more. Especially from the leaders. The standard for God's testimony has risen. The stakes are higher. Unless you are a Jew you are not born as one of God's people. You must accept the Gospel in order to enter God's Kingdom. If we, as God's latter day people, fail to proclaim this Gospel, and fail to live our lives as citizens of His Kingdom, in many respects we have failed God. This is especially true of Christian leaders. How much the more for a leader of an entire movement. The standard is even higher. The stakes are even higher.

Oh, that pedestal. We usually refer to that as a soap box.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Did the public let Jim Bakker give the old "Oh David sinned and got away with it so...." excuse? Nah, he ended up in the graybar hotel. Did the public let Ted Haggard off the hook just cause he had a vibrant megachurch and the ear of the President of the US? No Sir. These men sinned against their wifes, familys and God's people, and tried to hide it for a long time. They were unrepentant. God gave them both lots of chances. Along the way they probably did a lot of good for a lot of people. What was the price? They both lost their ministries. And they should have.

All the more reason not to use them to examine a spiritual principle.

As to being thoughtless I started this thread to determine if it was worthwhile visiting this forum and I think it has been very helpful in that sense. I also think it is quite clear that there is no scriptural basis for some of the judgment that goes on here, it is indefensible, and instead you and others resort to the same kind of ridicule and slander I saw in the LRC.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I am referring to Post #136 in the thread on the ground of the church. In that Post the contrast with WL and David is made. Cassidy took great offense at that post interpreting it to mean that it was a slight against the blood of Christ. You, Igzy and others commented on Cassidy's post. I felt that with all of the discussion on it I needed to quote the original post.

Please don't skip around and refer to a post made last week on another thread. If you do please go ahead a quote it so we can know the context. I went and looked and that poster was simply reacting to YOUR reference to David in the post before. Funny thing... So was I. I was referring to the reference you made to David (again) in the previous post, where you said:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Let us consider an example I think that we can all agree on. David's sin was heinous, and after committing that sin there was a moment prior to the prophet coming to speak to him before he repented.

If you really didn't mean to make a comparison between David and Witness Lee why don't you just say so. Say you really didn't mean it and let's move on.

Ask Thankful Jane she posted it.

Jane made no such comparison, in fact she did the opposite.

What pedestal is that?
Oh, that pedestal. We usually refer to that as a soap box.

Forget I mentioned it.

All the more reason not to use them to examine a spiritual principle.

Nonsensical non response. Try again.

As to being thoughtless I started this thread to determine if it was worthwhile visiting this forum and I think it has been very helpful in that sense. I also think it is quite clear that there is no scriptural basis for some of the judgment that goes on here, it is indefensible, and instead you and others resort to the same kind of ridicule and slander I saw in the LRC.

If you are going to be so non responsive, misrepresenting and misquoting at every turn, I think it may be better for you to keep your visiting at a minimum. I took your original question to be "HOW can you dismiss WL's ministry because of his sin" (which is how it should have been worded), so myself and others have gone about answering your question. You don't like the answers your getting so you choose to claim "no scriptural basis for some of the judgment that goes on here". You basically asked us to judge. Some of us have.

This thread has run it's course.

ZNP, go ahead and take the last word.