A Word of Love

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes it is still mystifying why you would take an awesome work like the gospel of Matthew that concludes with this incredible commission to all . . . .

Where does it make this commission to all? You are presuming. Give me a reason for accepting that a word given in such an obviously and overtly specific manner to only 11, and not the 100 or more other followers, is "this incredible commission to all." You haven't even tried to do that. You just presume that it should be so. It surely isn't because of the context. So what is the reason? Make a point. Don't just restate mine into things I didn't say.

Or at least give me a reason to consider that it is reasonably plausible. I have done that for you. And you have never actually responded to my point, but made out as if I have diminished the whole of Matthew to instructions for clergy.

Where did I do that? You don't like it when I say "strawman." But either you really don't bother reading my posts and just give knee-jerk reactions to certain words, or you are not understanding me, or you are throwing out strawmen. I can accept that it is not willful, and simply that you don't understand. But every time you comment on the whole of Matthew, it is either a misunderstanding of what I have said or a willful attempt to change the subject. I am presuming the former.

But a strawman is a strawman. So if you didn't intend to do that, then you should reconsider whether you are understanding what I am saying because you sure aren't responding to it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Where does it make this commission to all? You are presuming. Give me a reason for accepting that a word given in such an obviously and overtly specific manner to only 11, and not the 100 or more other followers, is "this incredible commission to all." You haven't even tried to do that. You just presume that it should be so. It surely isn't because of the context. So what is the reason? Make a point. Don't just restate mine into things I didn't say.

Or at least give me a reason to consider that it is reasonably plausible. I have done that for you. And you have never actually responded to my point, but made out as if I have diminished the whole of Matthew to instructions for clergy.

Fair enough, this is taken from Romans 1.


Romans
1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Verse 5 is clearly referring to his commission as an apostle, and in this context Paul says “that we also are the called of Jesus Christ”. In verse 1 Paul said he was “called to be an apostle”. In literally the same sentence he says that we also are the called of Jesus Christ.

1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

The glory to Jesus is not that the faith of 11 apostles (and Paul who was not there to receive that specific word) is spoken of, but that the faith of those that receive the gospel is spoken of throughout the whole world. This is the evidence of a resurrected and ascended Lord. You can not dismiss this as a few gullible followers of one extraordinary man.

1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

There is a mutual faith. If your interpretation is correct, then the Lord spoke to the 11 who had the faith to receive and act on that word. But according to Paul that faith is then transmitted to those that hear and it is now a “mutual faith”. How do you still distinguish between his faith and our faith?

1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek

All power is given unto the Lord for what? For salvation. Now according to Paul that promise of all power is unto every one that believeth.

Now I could go through many other places as well. Prior to this I quoted the verse in Peter that we have been given like precious faith. I also quoted the verse in Matthew that "man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God". Hebrews is especially good at covering this topic, and I referred to that when I said that Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith. Galatians is another excellent book on this subject and I referred to that when I mentioned this being "a different gospel".

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Fair enough, this is taken from Romans 1.


Romans
1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Verse 5 is clearly referring to his commission as an apostle, and in this context Paul says “that we also are the called of Jesus Christ”. In verse 1 Paul said he was “called to be an apostle”. In literally the same sentence he says that we also are the called of Jesus Christ.

1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

The glory to Jesus is not that the faith of 11 apostles (and Paul who was not there to receive that specific word) is spoken of, but that the faith of those that receive the gospel is spoken of throughout the whole world. This is the evidence of a resurrected and ascended Lord. You can not dismiss this as a few gullible followers of one extraordinary man.

1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

There is a mutual faith. If your interpretation is correct, then the Lord spoke to the 11 who had the faith to receive and act on that word. But according to Paul that faith is then transmitted to those that hear and it is now a “mutual faith”. How do you still distinguish between his faith and our faith?

1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek

All power is given unto the Lord for what? For salvation. Now according to Paul that promise of all power is unto every one that believeth.

Now I could go through many other places as well. Prior to this I quoted the verse in Peter that we have been given like precious faith. I also quoted the verse in Matthew that "man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God". Hebrews is especially good at covering this topic, and I referred to that when I said that Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith. Galatians is another excellent book on this subject and I referred to that when I mentioned this being "a different gospel".

I'm sorry, but none of these verses are significant concerning the meaning of the specific calling in Matthew 28. And I will admit that I am not saying that it cannot be a general statement to all, but there is evidence that it just might not be.

These verses indicate that others refer to the faith of those in Rome as they spread the gospel elsewhere. That does not give a charge to the Romans.

Being "the called of Jesus Christ" does not necessarily mean called to certain specific things. It is a general statement. This verse does not refer back to Matthew 28.

Actually, this whole passage in Romans does not say a single thing about the people Paul is speaking to preaching the gospel. Or being sent to other places. It does speak of them being established.

The same can be said about Peter. "Like precious faith" does not establish that "go into all the world" is to us — to you or me. You continually miss that I am never diminishing our calling. Just questioning whether this calling/commission is the one we received. Just like the charge to an elder is not the charge to the congregation. That does not mean that we do not have a charge. We are not the ones who equip, but the ones who are perfected for works of ministry. And what is not just "meeting" ministry and "preaching" ministry, but the whole task of living. It is much more than spiritual stuff.

Now if you actually are one of the ones called to be an elder, a teacher, an evangelist, etc., that is important and a serious charge. It bears a weight that most never have to consider. Weight such as being sure of what you are "building with" because the way you build will be the way those you build go out to do their ministry. It is what gets built into them.


In short, these passages are totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Do you not see that? What do you believe and why? You have not established that the specifics of Matthew 28 are ever stated as directed at everyone despite the very pointed command to the 11 (and quite possibly a few others who might have often never been left out). Your defenses are:

• Incredulity that I would think otherwise.
• Assertions about what this one statement might mean about what I think about the rest of Matthew (all speculative, and wrong).
• Passages with no plausible link to the discussion at hand.

What do you believe? Why do you believe it? Do you really consider what you believe and why you believe it?

Do you think that my position somehow diminishes the place of the "average Christian" in the realm of the Christian faith and life? Is the truth changed by whether or not I understand it the way you do, or whether it is the right understanding?

You clearly have a much better command of scripture than I do, but seem all too often to bring the most irrelevant things to bear in discussions.

My goal is to read and consider. I have no desire to destroy my faith or yours. But I am tired of simply believing everything because someone else tells me it is true. Especially when I have to reject my brain as I read words that do not clearly support the popularly held position, especially when it supports something different.

Are you afraid that if we discover that the apostles and some few others received a specific command that was pointed at them, then our part in the ongoing life of the church is somehow diminished? How can it be diminished? By your own declaration, the "gift" of apostleship may be dormant because the spread to the world in general has occurred. Why does this particular passage have to be about our general living of the gospel? Isn't there plenty in scripture that sets out our part without being linked to this one?

Does the gospel fall apart if this passage actually was very intentionally spoken only to the 11? I'm not saying that it definitely was. But if that is what actually happened, what does it change?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

I'm sorry, but none of these verses are significant concerning the meaning of the specific calling in Matthew 28. And I will admit that I am not saying that it cannot be a general statement to all, but there is evidence that it just might not be.

These verses indicate that others refer to the faith of those in Rome as they spread the gospel elsewhere. That does not give a charge to the Romans.

Being "the called of Jesus Christ" does not necessarily mean called to certain specific things. It is a general statement. This verse does not refer back to Matthew 28.

Actually, this whole passage in Romans does not say a single thing about the people Paul is speaking to preaching the gospel. Or being sent to other places. It does speak of them being established.

The same can be said about Peter. "Like precious faith" does not establish that "go into all the world" is to us — to you or me. You continually miss that I am never diminishing our calling. Just questioning whether this calling/commission is the one we received. Just like the charge to an elder is not the charge to the congregation. That does not mean that we do not have a charge. We are not the ones who equip, but the ones who are perfected for works of ministry. And what is not just "meeting" ministry and "preaching" ministry, but the whole task of living. It is much more than spiritual stuff.

Now if you actually are one of the ones called to be an elder, a teacher, an evangelist, etc., that is important and a serious charge. It bears a weight that most never have to consider. Weight such as being sure of what you are "building with" because the way you build will be the way those you build go out to do their ministry. It is what gets built into them.


In short, these passages are totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Do you not see that? What do you believe and why? You have not established that the specifics of Matthew 28 are ever stated as directed at everyone despite the very pointed command to the 11 (and quite possibly a few others who might have often never been left out). Your defenses are:

• Incredulity that I would think otherwise.
• Assertions about what this one statement might mean about what I think about the rest of Matthew (all speculative, and wrong).
• Passages with no plausible link to the discussion at hand.

What do you believe? Why do you believe it? Do you really consider what you believe and why you believe it?

Do you think that my position somehow diminishes the place of the "average Christian" in the realm of the Christian faith and life? Is the truth changed by whether or not I understand it the way you do, or whether it is the right understanding?

You clearly have a much better command of scripture than I do, but seem all too often to bring the most irrelevant things to bear in discussions.

My goal is to read and consider. I have no desire to destroy my faith or yours. But I am tired of simply believing everything because someone else tells me it is true. Especially when I have to reject my brain as I read words that do not clearly support the popularly held position, especially when it supports something different.

Are you afraid that if we discover that the apostles and some few others received a specific command that was pointed at them, then our part in the ongoing life of the church is somehow diminished? How can it be diminished? By your own declaration, the "gift" of apostleship may be dormant because the spread to the world in general has occurred. Why does this particular passage have to be about our general living of the gospel? Isn't there plenty in scripture that sets out our part without being linked to this one?

Does the gospel fall apart if this passage actually was very intentionally spoken only to the 11? I'm not saying that it definitely was. But if that is what actually happened, what does it change?

So the verses I quote do not prove an idea that I do not believe in nor have ever said. Wow, thanks for the info. In fact not only I, not even WL nor the LRC teach this idea. I don't know of anyone who has taught that the commission in Matt 28 is a charge for every Christian to go spread the gospel elsewhere. When you stop thinking out loud and are actually responding to what others are writing let me know. You say that what I write is completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand. Whose conversation? Not the one I have been having.

You say "you are tired of believing everything simply because someone tells you it is true". Who ever told you that all Christians were called to be Apostles? Who ever told you that all Christians were called to be traveling evangelists?

This is what is so confusing about your posts. You assume that you are rethinking what you were taught in the LRC, and yet no one ever taught what you allege they taught. I have repeatedly asked you to clarify what it is you are "rethinking". I have even provided a post where I have put together what I assume is what you are talking about and made it very clear that no one that I know of, not Paul, not WL, not WN, not me, ever said (to my limited knowledge) that the commission in Matt 28 is for all Christians to go preach the gospel as traveling missionaries.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So the verses I quote do not prove an idea that I do not believe in nor have ever said.

You are slowly establishing that you are not really what you make yourself out to be. I made specific comments about what I am seeing in the words recorded in Matthew 28 that at least provide some evidence that the so-called great commission was not actually given to everyone. And at the same time I was clear that I was not suggesting that we do not have a calling to the gospel, but that maybe that passage in Matthew 28 was something special relative to the commission of those specific apostles. I have been advised offline that there were probably some others that were always around when the 11/12 were there, so they probably heard it as well. But Jesus did not gather everyone together and speak it, but sent them ahead separately.

And since that time, you have at least given the appearance that you are responding to those statements that I made in that line of reasoning. So when you bring up the verses in Romans, I can find nothing in them that in any way relates to what I have been talking about. And since you gave them after quoting what I had said, and in a manner that indicated you were trying to take exception with what I had said, I'm not sure how i should understand them to be about anything else.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't know of anyone who has taught that the commission in Matt 28 is a charge for every Christian to go spread the gospel elsewhere. When you stop thinking out loud and are actually responding to what others are writing let me know.

So you are retracting all those things that you said in opposition to what I said that was simply suggesting that the commission in Matthew 28 was not a charge to every Christian? Or is there a typo in your post? Either you unintentionally said that you now agree with me and know of no one who has every taught otherwise (and really do not because that reading is due to a typo) or you are actually saying that you were misreading me earlier and you now agree with what I suggested.

Either way, I am baffled by what appears to be a sudden change of position from what you seemed so strongly to refute just one or two posts ago. Were we just misreading each other that badly?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You say that what I write is completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand. Whose conversation? Not the one I have been having.

Since you were responding to my posts, it would seem that the topic was whether Matthew 28 was or was not a commission to every Christian. And Romans 1 just does not connect with that topic. And the way to put my quote in red seems to indicate that you are reading me differently from what I actually said, or at least what I actually meant to say.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You say "you are tired of believing everything simply because someone tells you it is true". Who ever told you that all Christians were called to be Apostles? Who ever told you that all Christians were called to be traveling evangelists?

I never said either of those things. I said that it starts to appear that the commission in Matthew 28 was more about those things, and therefore was not a commission to all of us. But having said that, I have repeatedly been clear to repeat that I am not suggesting that we do not have a calling relative to the gospel.

What I meant by "tired of believing . . . " was that when I see something that does not jive, I go with the question rather than just accept that a more studied person has said it. When it comes to issues of scriptural study, it is becoming clear that too many of the most studied still are so blinded by their colored lenses that they can only see answers that fit in their preconceived framework. And the truth is that while some of the frameworks out there may be very good, they are all limited and narrow, therefore do not deal with everything well.

And I do not suppose that just because I have taken this "ask a lot of questions and don't just take what someone else says" position that all of my reasoning will be right or my questions will be good. But I get suspicious that I am onto something when there is little on-point discussion that points back to the popularly-held position that I am questioning.

I honestly expect that when it is all said and done, there will be little substantial change in what is important in my beliefs. But I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is what is so confusing about your posts. You assume that you are rethinking what you were taught in the LRC, and yet no one ever taught what you allege they taught. I have repeatedly asked you to clarify what it is you are "rethinking". I have even provided a post where I have put together what I assume is what you are talking about and made it very clear that no one that I know of, not Paul, not WL, not WN, not me, ever said (to my limited knowledge) that the commission in Matt 28 is for all Christians to go preach the gospel as traveling missionaries.

This particular line of reasoning appears to be rather recent in the discussion.

But I am actually suggesting that because there are references in scripture to our part in the spread of the gospel, we do have a commission. But I see something more detailed in the Matthew 28 commission that may not legitimately be relevant to what most of us will ever be called to do. And it is not just that Jesus spoke it specifically to the disciples. It is also that it entails the task of equipping others to follow. And teaching them to obey. Even in the majority of Paul's writings it is fairly clear that there are the teachers/evangelists/apostles, etc., and those who are equipped by them. And I actually doubt that "works of ministry" that the now-equipped ones are to carry out are simply small versions of what the teachers/evangelists/apostles, etc. did.

The fullness of the gospel is to make us what we were intended to be. To restore us. And we were not created to be teachers and evangelists. We were created to bear God's image in our lives. And we are now saved for that purpose. The teachers/apostles help us to learn what that is. Why do we have to learn it? Maybe because we lost the natural knowledge in the fall. I don't know why for sure. It is clear that it doesn't just fall on us at salvation because Jesus would not have had to tell the disciples to teach the converts to obey.

The pattern I see is that Jesus had a following of 12/70/others who followed and learned and were ready to take on the commission at the end of Matthew. At the same time, Jesus set hundreds of people on the path to following and obeying. Most of those people did not follow from place to place to become teachers. They followed in their living right where they already were. They lived and exemplified the good news in their lives. And they were ready to tell why they lived the way they lived.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Does the gospel fall apart if this passage actually was very intentionally spoken only to the 11? I'm not saying that it definitely was. But if that is what actually happened, what does it change?

For the sake of clearing up confusion I didn't want to quote your post at all, rather focus on the passage in question. However, for the sake of the thread I felt this was a critical question. It seems central to the discussion, and helps with the continuity.

The passage in question is from Matt 28:16-20 (not Acts 1:8 which is the verse that charges the disciples to go into all the world).

28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

This is the conclusion to the book of Matthew. In this passage the Lord says that "all power" or "all authority" has been given unto him in heaven and in earth. Matthew presents Jesus as a king, it concludes with his being given all authority in heaven and in earth. This is why anyone who confesses that Jesus is Lord shall be saved (Romans). This verse is spoken to every believer. This gospel records the fact that it was spoken to the 11 disciples, but it also records the fact that these disciples were commissioned to disciple the nations, teaching them all things, and that is what Matthew is doing in the gospel. So saying that the word was spoken to the 11 is fine, but then you also have to agree that the gospel was written for every believer. You say that this great commission in Matthew was only spoken to the 11 and was not for the average Christian, that includes this word that is the conclusion to the entire gospel. What was the point of being crucified? What was the point of the earthly ministry? Obviously the gospel of Matthew falls apart if you take away the fact that Jesus is now Lord!

Go Ye -- you have made this verse to mean that the Lord was charging the 11 to go on missionary journeys. I understand this word to mean that the disciples, and the believers, and the church that Jesus promised to build in Matthew, is charged to actively do a work. If your congregation is actively involved in discipling the nations and teaching them all things that Jesus commanded, then your congregation is actively responding to this commission. If you are serving within the congregation, then your services is also part of this work. Paul was called to be an apostle (Rom 1:1). Every single believer that received Christ has also been called. (Rom 1:6). No one is saying that they also have been called to be apostles, perhaps they have been called to be a sanitation worker that expresses Christ. But that calling is according to the Lord's burden to disciple all the nations. That is the commission that is given to the church:

Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Finally, there is a promise "Lo I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen" Yes, if you tell me that this promise is not for the average believer it diminishes the gospel of Matthew, yes it changes a lot.

Now you are the one who is asking what happens if this passage is not spoken to all believers. This is why I am astounded you would even ask such a thing. You seem to have confused Matt 28 with Acts 13:2

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This verse is spoken to every believer. This gospel records the fact that it was spoken to the 11 disciples, but it also records the fact that these disciples were commissioned to disciple the nations, teaching them all things, and that is what Matthew is doing in the gospel. So saying that the word was spoken to the 11 is fine, but then you also have to agree that the gospel was written for every believer.

I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. Matthew wrote it down as part of his "teaching them all things" and therefore this must be a command to us.

That is extremely weak reasoning.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If your congregation is actively involved in discipling the nations and teaching them all things that Jesus commanded, then your congregation is actively responding to this commission.

Maybe. Depending on how you read this commission. If you understand it as an all-encompassing commission to live the gospel life in whatever way you do it, they you are correct. If you read this as directed at those who will be the ones teaching the rest of us to follow and obey, then the congregation is actually responding to a different commission.

In short, we are called to the thing that you are referring to in this portion of your post. But I'm not sure that is what Matthew 28 is talking about.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That is the commission that is given to the church:

Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

Great passage. How does it relate to the discussion? What question or issue does it address or solve? Is it that the word "calling" is in it? If so, how does this use of the word relate to Matthew 28 in terms of the content of the commission there relative to the calling here? Are we presuming that our "calling" is so narrow, or the great commission so broad that everything is generically talking about everything?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Finally, there is a promise "Lo I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen" Yes, if you tell me that this promise is not for the average believer it diminishes the gospel of Matthew, yes it changes a lot.

I would not say anything like that. And while the two statements are placed together in one paragraph ( in Bibles that are formatted in that way), the fact that I question the broad applicability of the "great commission" that immediately preceded it does not suggest that I question the broad applicability of this statement.

Jesus can say to them that he is with them to the end of the age without it being a limited or qualified statement even if it really was spoken as literally connected to something else that I believe was a limited statement. It is not a structural or grammatical difficulty to say, write, or read something in that manner.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Now you are the one who is asking what happens if this passage is not spoken to all believers. This is why I am astounded you would even ask such a thing. You seem to have confused Matt 28 with Acts 13:2

Why are you astounded? I've been through this before. What is so incredulous about what I am saying? You seem stuck on the idea that what Matthew 28 is about simply has to be the general "commission" to everyone to preach the gospel. I have reason to think that might not be the case. And once again, I ask for a reason that suggesting that is so incredulous. The wording does seem to suggest it. And I do not find anything except the fact that we have generally thought of this a being generally applicable. I don't find how it is simply true. So back up. Read what I write again. Now respond to what I write, not what I do not write.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Great passage [Ephesians 1:18-23]. How does it relate to the discussion? What question or issue does it address or solve? Is it that the word "calling" is in it? If so, how does this use of the word relate to Matthew 28 in terms of the content of the commission there relative to the calling here? Are we presuming that our "calling" is so narrow, or the great commission so broad that everything is generically talking about everything?

The passage makes it very clear that when Jesus said "all authority is given to me, go ye, therefore"

That this authority is given unto the church, not unto the apostles. These verses in Ephesians prove that the "ye" in Matthew refers to the corporate Body of Christ, the church.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The passage makes it very clear that when Jesus said "all authority is given to me, go ye, therefore"

That this authority is given unto the church, not unto the apostles. These verses in Ephesians prove that the "ye" in Matthew refers to the corporate Body of Christ, the church.

Splicing rather freely it would seem.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

I would not say anything like that. And while the two statements are placed together in one paragraph ( in Bibles that are formatted in that way), the fact that I question the broad applicability of the "great commission" that immediately preceded it does not suggest that I question the broad applicability of this statement.

Jesus can say to them that he is with them to the end of the age without it being a limited or qualified statement even if it really was spoken as literally connected to something else that I believe was a limited statement. It is not a structural or grammatical difficulty to say, write, or read something in that manner.

Your major reasoning throughout this entire argument is that the word in Matt 28 is spoken to the 11, not to everyone. Yet at the same time you admit that the two promises spoken to the 11 in this section are applicable to everyone. This at the very least undermines the argument. Yes it is possible that the first sentence is to everyone, and the last sentence is to everyone, but the middle sentence is only to the eleven. Except that the middle sentence "Go Ye" is conditional on the first sentence -- "Go Ye, Therefore"

So all Christians are given the first promise, that all authority is given unto Jesus, this is proved in Ephesians 1:18-23, yet the statement that is conditioned on this promise is only to the eleven?

Once again I would ask why are you saying this, and now the reason cannot be that this word was only spoken to the eleven.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Your major reasoning throughout this entire argument is that the word in Matt 28 is spoken to the 11, not to everyone. Yet at the same time you admit that the two promises spoken to the 11 in this section are applicable to everyone.

I find it amazing that you cannot fathom that something said to only a few could be meant for only them and something else said to only a few could be a general statement with broad applicability. You are focused on the fact that it is said to only the 11/12 and since some things said to them is meant for everyone, then they must all be and therefore assume that since I think that one of them is potentially only meant for them that I must think that all such statements are only meant for them.

The is a thing called context and the contexts and the wording in the various places are not the same, therefore not necessarily identical.

If you want to discuss the contextual differences and show how I should read them the same, that is fine. But you are ignoring the whole of the context and forcing all to be identical simply because there is one factor the same. It doesn't rise to the level of reasonable evidence for me. You need to make a case on each specific situation for or against any particular reading. You can't make one factor dismiss all others.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Why are you astounded? I've been through this before. What is so incredulous about what I am saying? You seem stuck on the idea that what Matthew 28 is about simply has to be the general "commission" to everyone to preach the gospel. I have reason to think that might not be the case. And once again, I ask for a reason that suggesting that is so incredulous. The wording does seem to suggest it. And I do not find anything except the fact that we have generally thought of this a being generally applicable. I don't find how it is simply true. So back up. Read what I write again. Now respond to what I write, not what I do not write.

This is what we should be focused on first. Why do you have reason to believe that? Because of the word "go"? I have listed 3 points in order of importance:

The biggest issue I have with this theory is that Ephesians says that the authority that was wrought in Christ when God raised Him from the dead and made Him Lord of all and gave Him as head to the church is the condition on which "Go ye, therefore" is made. You cannot "go" without the head, and it is the church that has the head, not individual apostles.

The second biggest issue I have is that you can argue that these verses are the Lord's commission to the apostles. I think that is a reasonable, fair, and to my mind, accurate representation of these verses. Paul said he was called to be an apostle, so I would therefore argue that he should be included in that, even though he wasn't with the 11. However, Paul also says every believer has been called. To me, this is very similar to saying that every employee has been hired to do a job. Every member of the body has a function. Since the Body has been commissioned, every function of the Body that is under the guidance of the head, is working out that commission.

The third biggest issue is that I see no reason to take the first part and the third part of conversation Jesus had with the 11 and say this applies to everyone, but that the middle part only applies to the 11. I find once you agree that the majority of the conversation applies then the argument that this was not spoken to everyone falls apart. What makes this even more implausible is that the part that you think only applies to the 11 is conditional on the promises made to everyone.