A Word of Love

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Does the gospel fall apart if this passage actually was very intentionally spoken only to the 11? I'm not saying that it definitely was. But if that is what actually happened, what does it change?

For the sake of clearing up confusion I didn't want to quote your post at all, rather focus on the passage in question. However, for the sake of the thread I felt this was a critical question. It seems central to the discussion, and helps with the continuity.

The passage in question is from Matt 28:16-20 (not Acts 1:8 which is the verse that charges the disciples to go into all the world).

28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

This is the conclusion to the book of Matthew. In this passage the Lord says that "all power" or "all authority" has been given unto him in heaven and in earth. Matthew presents Jesus as a king, it concludes with his being given all authority in heaven and in earth. This is why anyone who confesses that Jesus is Lord shall be saved (Romans). This verse is spoken to every believer. This gospel records the fact that it was spoken to the 11 disciples, but it also records the fact that these disciples were commissioned to disciple the nations, teaching them all things, and that is what Matthew is doing in the gospel. So saying that the word was spoken to the 11 is fine, but then you also have to agree that the gospel was written for every believer. You say that this great commission in Matthew was only spoken to the 11 and was not for the average Christian, that includes this word that is the conclusion to the entire gospel. What was the point of being crucified? What was the point of the earthly ministry? Obviously the gospel of Matthew falls apart if you take away the fact that Jesus is now Lord!

Go Ye -- you have made this verse to mean that the Lord was charging the 11 to go on missionary journeys. I understand this word to mean that the disciples, and the believers, and the church that Jesus promised to build in Matthew, is charged to actively do a work. If your congregation is actively involved in discipling the nations and teaching them all things that Jesus commanded, then your congregation is actively responding to this commission. If you are serving within the congregation, then your services is also part of this work. Paul was called to be an apostle (Rom 1:1). Every single believer that received Christ has also been called. (Rom 1:6). No one is saying that they also have been called to be apostles, perhaps they have been called to be a sanitation worker that expresses Christ. But that calling is according to the Lord's burden to disciple all the nations. That is the commission that is given to the church:

Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Finally, there is a promise "Lo I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen" Yes, if you tell me that this promise is not for the average believer it diminishes the gospel of Matthew, yes it changes a lot.

Now you are the one who is asking what happens if this passage is not spoken to all believers. This is why I am astounded you would even ask such a thing. You seem to have confused Matt 28 with Acts 13:2

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This verse is spoken to every believer. This gospel records the fact that it was spoken to the 11 disciples, but it also records the fact that these disciples were commissioned to disciple the nations, teaching them all things, and that is what Matthew is doing in the gospel. So saying that the word was spoken to the 11 is fine, but then you also have to agree that the gospel was written for every believer.

I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. Matthew wrote it down as part of his "teaching them all things" and therefore this must be a command to us.

That is extremely weak reasoning.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If your congregation is actively involved in discipling the nations and teaching them all things that Jesus commanded, then your congregation is actively responding to this commission.

Maybe. Depending on how you read this commission. If you understand it as an all-encompassing commission to live the gospel life in whatever way you do it, they you are correct. If you read this as directed at those who will be the ones teaching the rest of us to follow and obey, then the congregation is actually responding to a different commission.

In short, we are called to the thing that you are referring to in this portion of your post. But I'm not sure that is what Matthew 28 is talking about.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That is the commission that is given to the church:

Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

Great passage. How does it relate to the discussion? What question or issue does it address or solve? Is it that the word "calling" is in it? If so, how does this use of the word relate to Matthew 28 in terms of the content of the commission there relative to the calling here? Are we presuming that our "calling" is so narrow, or the great commission so broad that everything is generically talking about everything?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Finally, there is a promise "Lo I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen" Yes, if you tell me that this promise is not for the average believer it diminishes the gospel of Matthew, yes it changes a lot.

I would not say anything like that. And while the two statements are placed together in one paragraph ( in Bibles that are formatted in that way), the fact that I question the broad applicability of the "great commission" that immediately preceded it does not suggest that I question the broad applicability of this statement.

Jesus can say to them that he is with them to the end of the age without it being a limited or qualified statement even if it really was spoken as literally connected to something else that I believe was a limited statement. It is not a structural or grammatical difficulty to say, write, or read something in that manner.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Now you are the one who is asking what happens if this passage is not spoken to all believers. This is why I am astounded you would even ask such a thing. You seem to have confused Matt 28 with Acts 13:2

Why are you astounded? I've been through this before. What is so incredulous about what I am saying? You seem stuck on the idea that what Matthew 28 is about simply has to be the general "commission" to everyone to preach the gospel. I have reason to think that might not be the case. And once again, I ask for a reason that suggesting that is so incredulous. The wording does seem to suggest it. And I do not find anything except the fact that we have generally thought of this a being generally applicable. I don't find how it is simply true. So back up. Read what I write again. Now respond to what I write, not what I do not write.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Great passage [Ephesians 1:18-23]. How does it relate to the discussion? What question or issue does it address or solve? Is it that the word "calling" is in it? If so, how does this use of the word relate to Matthew 28 in terms of the content of the commission there relative to the calling here? Are we presuming that our "calling" is so narrow, or the great commission so broad that everything is generically talking about everything?

The passage makes it very clear that when Jesus said "all authority is given to me, go ye, therefore"

That this authority is given unto the church, not unto the apostles. These verses in Ephesians prove that the "ye" in Matthew refers to the corporate Body of Christ, the church.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The passage makes it very clear that when Jesus said "all authority is given to me, go ye, therefore"

That this authority is given unto the church, not unto the apostles. These verses in Ephesians prove that the "ye" in Matthew refers to the corporate Body of Christ, the church.

Splicing rather freely it would seem.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

I would not say anything like that. And while the two statements are placed together in one paragraph ( in Bibles that are formatted in that way), the fact that I question the broad applicability of the "great commission" that immediately preceded it does not suggest that I question the broad applicability of this statement.

Jesus can say to them that he is with them to the end of the age without it being a limited or qualified statement even if it really was spoken as literally connected to something else that I believe was a limited statement. It is not a structural or grammatical difficulty to say, write, or read something in that manner.

Your major reasoning throughout this entire argument is that the word in Matt 28 is spoken to the 11, not to everyone. Yet at the same time you admit that the two promises spoken to the 11 in this section are applicable to everyone. This at the very least undermines the argument. Yes it is possible that the first sentence is to everyone, and the last sentence is to everyone, but the middle sentence is only to the eleven. Except that the middle sentence "Go Ye" is conditional on the first sentence -- "Go Ye, Therefore"

So all Christians are given the first promise, that all authority is given unto Jesus, this is proved in Ephesians 1:18-23, yet the statement that is conditioned on this promise is only to the eleven?

Once again I would ask why are you saying this, and now the reason cannot be that this word was only spoken to the eleven.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Your major reasoning throughout this entire argument is that the word in Matt 28 is spoken to the 11, not to everyone. Yet at the same time you admit that the two promises spoken to the 11 in this section are applicable to everyone.

I find it amazing that you cannot fathom that something said to only a few could be meant for only them and something else said to only a few could be a general statement with broad applicability. You are focused on the fact that it is said to only the 11/12 and since some things said to them is meant for everyone, then they must all be and therefore assume that since I think that one of them is potentially only meant for them that I must think that all such statements are only meant for them.

The is a thing called context and the contexts and the wording in the various places are not the same, therefore not necessarily identical.

If you want to discuss the contextual differences and show how I should read them the same, that is fine. But you are ignoring the whole of the context and forcing all to be identical simply because there is one factor the same. It doesn't rise to the level of reasonable evidence for me. You need to make a case on each specific situation for or against any particular reading. You can't make one factor dismiss all others.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

I find it amazing that you cannot fathom that something said to only a few could be meant for only them and something else said to only a few could be a general statement with broad applicability.

Of course I could fathom it, otherwise why even have this discussion? But what evidence have you provided? Context?

The context is

1. This is the conclusion of the book of Matthew, a book written for all believers. Therefore I find it strange that at such a crucial juncture there would be an aside meant only for 11 and recorded as an FYI. Not impossible, but unlikely.

2. In this conclusion all authority is given to the resurrected and ascended Lord who has been made head over all things to the church. It is based on this authority that he tells His disciples to go and disciple the nations. Based on the fact that this charge is a direct result of all authority given to the Lord I have to believe that this charge is to the church, since according to Ephesians the power that was wrought in raising Christ from the dead and making Him head over all was given to the church.

3. The context is that these disciples, upon hearing this charge, would go off and spread the gospel with signs and wonders following them, demonstrating that the Lord was with them and all Power was given to Him. The fact that this is so means that I can look at their lives and their work as an example of what it means to "go and disciple the nations". They have been given to me as a pattern, even as Paul said. Why would Paul tell me to "be imitators of me" if I wasn't meant to be an imitator of him? So my question to you is, can't you understand that some words in the Bible require examples and illustrations to be understood? Hence the book of Acts was not an aside, it was not a FYI, it illustrated what it means to go and disciple the nations.

4. The context is that the work of discipling the nations did not stop and cease 1900 years ago once these 11 died. It did not cease with the lands immediately adjacent to the Mediterranean, but history shows us it has gone to the furthest corners of the Earth. History also has shown us through many testimonies that this gospel did go in the power of the Holy Spirit, with signs and wonders, once again testifying that these promises made to the eleven are equally applicable to those as well. Therefore biographies of Hudson Taylor, or William Carey, or Martin Luther, or Billy Graham, or others can also illustrate what it means to go and disciple the nations.

5. Experience and history has shown that the bulk of the work of discipling the nations has been done by the Body of Christ as the church. By any reasonable measure there are more people being discipled today and taught to observe all things that Jesus taught today than there ever were by the original 11. How is it that you cannot comprehend that a brother or sister teaching sunday school today is walking according to this charge? A teenager preaching the gospel at their school is walking according to this charge? A bible study, home meeting, or sunday morning worship is walking according to this charge?

6. A key component to Paul's ministry was to teach that although he was called to be an apostle, even so, every member of the Body of Christ has a calling, has a function, and this function is according to the Lord's commission to the Body. Regardless of what this function is, the analogy is a human body with many different members all functioning. Now how can you not see that Christ is the head of that Body and that this body has gone to the four corners of the Earth, discipling the nations and teaching them to obey all the things the Lord has said? Did the apostle Paul ever come to NYC and disciple the nations here? Who is doing that? The church is, and every member of the body is therefore walking according to this charge.

7. The context of the book of Matthew is that Jesus "will build His church". According to Ephesians, the conclusion of Matthew, the conclusion of the crucifixion, death and burial of Jesus, is that He resurrected from the dead, ascended to the heavens, and all authority was given to Him to be head over the church. Building the church is a major theme of Matthew, it is built on the critical revelation of the entire book -- Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. We see this again when he resurrects and becomes the Head of the Body. Limiting that conclusion to a word meant only for the 11 limits the revelation of this book.

So I see lots of evidence, whether the writings of Paul, the Acts of the Apostles, or church history, or even my own experience to know that this word from the Lord is still very much in force to all of us: "Go and disciple the nations, teaching them to obey all things that the Lord has spoken"

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Of course I could fathom it, otherwise why even have this discussion? But what evidence have you provided? Context?

The context is

1. This is the conclusion of the book of Matthew, a book written for all believers. Therefore I find it strange that at such a crucial juncture there would be an aside meant only for 11 and recorded as an FYI. Not impossible, but unlikely.

I guess that sending out 70 was code for sending out everyone. I have not bothered to look into whether this is mentioned in Matthew. But I would presume that the same argument would be made for all of the gospels. And it is the use of a broad brush full of whitewash to make it all one way.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

2. In this conclusion all authority is given to the resurrected and ascended Lord who has been made head over all things to the church. It is based on this authority that he tells His disciples to go and disciple the nations. Based on the fact that this charge is a direct result of all authority given to the Lord I have to believe that this charge is to the church, since according to Ephesians the power that was wrought in raising Christ from the dead and making Him head over all was given to the church.

And so, since all power is given to the church, this word has to be a general commission.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

They have been given to me as a pattern, even as Paul said. Why would Paul tell me to "be imitators of me" if I wasn't meant to be an imitator of him?/

Paul's statement meant to mean that they should do all the things that he does and in the way he does time?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

4. The context is that the work of discipling the nations did not stop and cease 1900 years ago once these 11 died.

You have forgotten that from the very first, I did not say that it was only to the 11, but to those who have the charge to give their lives to it. And that does not mean that our lives are not given to Christ, but that we each have different parts in the whole "enterprise" of the church.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Therefore biographies of Hudson Taylor, or William Carey, or Martin Luther, or Billy Graham, or others can also illustrate what it means to go and disciple the nations.

And I would agree. And it might be that even in my alternate reading that these people are clearly among those charged in Matthew 28.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

5. Experience and history has shown that the bulk of the work of discipling the nations has been done by the Body of Christ as the church. By any reasonable measure there are more people being discipled today and taught to observe all things that Jesus taught today than there ever were by the original 11.

Still missing th point. It never was intended to be simply to the 11 then dormant or completed. But what I am talking about is not simply what we all can "do."

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How is it that you cannot comprehend that a brother or sister teaching Sunday school today is walking according to this charge? A teenager preaching the gospel at their school is walking according to this charge? A bible study, home meeting, or Sunday morning worship is walking according to this charge?

Each of these are components of our charge. Of the living of the Christian life. Surely it is evident that the whole process requires us all. But the underpinning of coming to sufficient knowledge to do those things required that someone disciple us and teach us to obey. It required that someone that we accepted as speaking for God (not just in a "prophetic" way) directed us

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

7. The context of the book of Matthew is that Jesus "will build His church".

That is a lens through which you choose to read Matthew. It is an important passage in Matthew that constitutes less than half of one chapter. But it is not simply "the context" of Matthew.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

According to Ephesians, the conclusion of Matthew, the conclusion of the crucifixion, death and burial of Jesus, is that He resurrected from the dead, ascended to the heavens, and all authority was given to Him to be head over the church.

?????

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Building the church is a major theme of Matthew, it is built on the critical revelation of the entire book -- Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

I do not want anyone to think that I consider the church a minor theme, but "the church" seems to be mentioned twice. They are not insignificant mentions, but to call it a major theme is to suggest seriously colored glasses.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Limiting that conclusion to a word meant only for the 11 limits the revelation of this book.

Baloney. Only if you are insistent that without it being personally to you that your calling by God is knocked-down in importance. But importance to who? You calling is important as it is without that verse. It is not diminished. It is what it is.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So I see lots of evidence, whether the writings of Paul, the Acts of the Apostles, or church history, or even my own experience to know that this word from the Lord is still very much in force to all of us: "Go and disciple the nations, teaching them to obey all things that the Lord has spoken"

Paul does not directly refer to this, even in Ephesians 1. Acts sort of does, but probably not the way you think. Church history bears out to me that there have always been those who have a charge to keep us focused and moving in our discipleship and keeping focused on our obedience and righteousness. And within this framework there is significant "work" for us. Part of it is in things like teaching Sunday school, talking to our friends and neighbors, etc.

And none of what I am suggesting is to diminish what we do, or its importance or significance. I just see what seems to me to be an indication that there is something in this particular charge that we have missed in the past. A charge that is important to the church but is not generally to all of us. It is actually happening the way I understand it anyway. The only thing is that I think this passage is talking about it the way I am seeing it.

[ZNPaaneah]

OBW: Can you give us an example of a Christian who is faithful to the calling to which they were called and that this word in Matthew does not apply to?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Why are you astounded? I've been through this before. What is so incredulous about what I am saying? You seem stuck on the idea that what Matthew 28 is about simply has to be the general "commission" to everyone to preach the gospel. I have reason to think that might not be the case. And once again, I ask for a reason that suggesting that is so incredulous. The wording does seem to suggest it. And I do not find anything except the fact that we have generally thought of this a being generally applicable. I don't find how it is simply true. So back up. Read what I write again. Now respond to what I write, not what I do not write.

This is what we should be focused on first. Why do you have reason to believe that? Because of the word "go"? I have listed 3 points in order of importance:

The biggest issue I have with this theory is that Ephesians says that the authority that was wrought in Christ when God raised Him from the dead and made Him Lord of all and gave Him as head to the church is the condition on which "Go ye, therefore" is made. You cannot "go" without the head, and it is the church that has the head, not individual apostles.

The second biggest issue I have is that you can argue that these verses are the Lord's commission to the apostles. I think that is a reasonable, fair, and to my mind, accurate representation of these verses. Paul said he was called to be an apostle, so I would therefore argue that he should be included in that, even though he wasn't with the 11. However, Paul also says every believer has been called. To me, this is very similar to saying that every employee has been hired to do a job. Every member of the body has a function. Since the Body has been commissioned, every function of the Body that is under the guidance of the head, is working out that commission.

The third biggest issue is that I see no reason to take the first part and the third part of conversation Jesus had with the 11 and say this applies to everyone, but that the middle part only applies to the 11. I find once you agree that the majority of the conversation applies then the argument that this was not spoken to everyone falls apart. What makes this even more implausible is that the part that you think only applies to the 11 is conditional on the promises made to everyone.