God became man that man might become God

[OBW]

Originally Posted by David

What do you suppose Christ being all of the new self means then?:

Originally Posted by David

"Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Colossians 3:9-11 1 "

Once again, there is an attempt to make something simple and straightforward so extreme that it might be easier to get a camel through the literal eye of a needle.

Within the context, and consistent with other passages, this is talking about the source from which we operate. Our mindset. Our worldview. Many ways to say it, each with a different slant on what it is talking about.

But no matter the wording, it is another way of saying what Paul said in another place when he said to "have the mind of Christ." If you want to argue that means to literally have Christ's mind implanted in your head in the place of your own, feel free. But it is not a reasonable meaning. Instead, it is talking about following. About being and doing. Not about being replaced. "Think like Christ did." "Put yourselves in his shoes and act like he did. Don't keep acting like the heathen that you used to be."

The context here in Colossians 3 is that Paul is telling them to quit lying. And he underscores that the Christian life is one of putting off the old ways and putting on new ways that are "renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator." Not being made into its creator, but into the image of its creator. Interesting that before the fall, we were said to be in the image of the creator. "Let us make man in our image." God didn't say "let us make another God." Just a new creation that is in his image.

It probably looks like I am just fighting Lee and the LRC. But there is a huge library of truth in scripture and he majored on such a small part of it. And misunderstood too much of what he majored on. And we all, with unengaged minds, simply took it in and didn't stop to read the words of scripture that were contorted to say what we would never have come up with. Doesn't it ever bother you that way too much of Lee's teachings required you to dump what the plain words said and instead accept something else as true?

This kind of thinking about Colossians 3 is a great example. Paul is talking about the stopping of an outward behavior. He uses the metaphor of putting off and putting on of a personae in the same way that we would talk about changing clothes. But he says we have done it. Note that he is telling people who "have put off . . ." to stop lying. He is not saying that if you put of and put on you will stop lying. He is saying "stop lying because you have . . ." You have a basis. A way. Peter may have actually said it better when he generically said that we have everything required for godliness. We don't need to go get it. We need to use what we have. He and Paul are on the same page in this matter.

[David]

Originally Posted by OBW

Once again, there is an attempt to make something simple and straightforward so extreme that it might be easier to get a camel through the literal eye of a needle.

Within the context, and consistent with other passages, this is talking about the source from which we operate. Our mindset. Our worldview. Many ways to say it, each with a different slant on what it is talking about.

But no matter the wording, it is another way of saying what Paul said in another place when he said to "have the mind of Christ." If you want to argue that means to literally have Christ's mind implanted in your head in the place of your own, feel free. But it is not a reasonable meaning. Instead, it is talking about following. About being and doing. Not about being replaced. "Think like Christ did." "Put yourselves in his shoes and act like he did. Don't keep acting like the heathen that you used to be."

The context here in Colossians 3 is that Paul is telling them to quit lying. And he underscores that the Christian life is one of putting off the old ways and putting on new ways that are "renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator." Not being made into its creator, but into the image of its creator. Interesting that before the fall, we were said to be in the image of the creator. "Let us make man in our image." God didn't say "let us make another God." Just a new creation that is in his image.

It probably looks like I am just fighting Lee and the LRC. But there is a huge library of truth in scripture and he majored on such a small part of it. And misunderstood too much of what he majored on. And we all, with unengaged minds, simply took it in and didn't stop to read the words of scripture that were contorted to say what we would never have come up with. Doesn't it ever bother you that way too much of Lee's teachings required you to dump what the plain words said and instead accept something else as true?

This kind of thinking about Colossians 3 is a great example. Paul is talking about the stopping of an outward behavior. He uses the metaphor of putting off and putting on of a personae in the same way that we would talk about changing clothes. But he says we have done it. Note that he is telling people who "have put off . . ." to stop lying. He is not saying that if you put of and put on you will stop lying. He is saying "stop lying because you have . . ." You have a basis. A way. Peter may have actually said it better when he generically said that we have everything required for godliness. We don't need to go get it. We need to use what we have. He and Paul are on the same page in this matter.

Are we one spirit with God? :
"'The two will become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 1 Corinthians 6:16-17 "
"“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:31-32 "

Is not there only one who is holy?:
"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.” Revelation 15:4 "

But we also are holy, making us God.
"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 1 Peter 2:9 "
"If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. Romans 11:16 "

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by David

Is not there only one who is holy?:
"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.” Revelation 15:4 "

But we also are holy, making us God.

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 1 Peter 2:9 "
"If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. Romans 11:16 "

Exodus 3.5 "Take the shoes off of your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground."

David, according to your crazy logic, the ground is also God.

Imagine that folks, the ground we walk on is God.

Quick everybody, kick off your shoes!

[OBW]

Originally Posted by David

Are we one spirit with God? :
"'The two will become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 1 Corinthians 6:16-17 "
"“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:31-32 "

Is not there only one who is holy?:
"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.” Revelation 15:4 "

But we also are holy, making us God.
"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 1 Peter 2:9 "
"If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. Romans 11:16 "

It is clear that language is not your forte. English or otherwise. And in this case, the ways of speech at the times of the various writings along with how we translate it, and update it, are very meaningful.

So Jesus says we love one and hate another. Never just ignore anything. But that is not true. It is a figure of speech to make emphasis. In the passages you site, the references to God's holiness make it clear that "holy" is an accurate description of everything about God. Yet we are called to be holy. And this was stated by God himself. We clearly understand this to mean that we have a goal — a calling. We actually have a charge to be something that we, by birth, are otherwise not. We are fallen, sinful, and very decidedly unholy.

So God is truly holy. Yet we are called to be holy as well. Yes, our ability to be truly holy is predicated upon the renewing, leading, and guiding of the true Holy One who is now in our "hearts." And as we walk in that light (in the Spirit) we can actually achieve holiness — at least at the level at which we were created to be holy as image-bearers of God.

[David]

Originally Posted by OBW

And as we walk in that light (in the Spirit) we can actually achieve holiness — at least at the level at which we were created to be holy as image-bearers of God.

So you agree that we become holy, making my point.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by David

So you agree that we become holy, making my point.

Only if your point is that we do become holy. But that is decidedly not your point. Unless I am misreading you, you have gone to great lengths to try to establish that somehow we become Christ, or Christ becomes us.

That is the point that you started with when you said "Col 3.11 says Jesus is us!" But Colossians does not say that. You counter by putting the passage in a post reading "Christ is all, and in all." And no one has said that this is not true. But that does not make Christ simply us. Or us simply Christ.

And then you post the passage in Revelation that says "For you alone are holy." So I explain how that statement, as true as it is, does not deny that we can be holy without actually being Christ. But you do not counter my argument, just misrepresent it by saying "So you agree that we become holy, making my point."

If your desire is debate, you should at least beware that I am not your average fool. (I am clearly an above-average fool — and this is where a tongue-in-cheek smiley would come in handy.)

If your desire is to have a discussion among reasonable people about the meaning of certain passages (in a sort of "come, let us reason" mode) then you need to be as willing to actually consider and respond to what I say as I am to what you say. So far, I have provided reasonable analysis of your "points" yet you have simply run to different evidence without responding to what I say. Then you obviously don't respond to my last post, but act as if I have said something consistent with what you are saying. If you read scripture like you responded to my comments the it would not seem that there is any actual good-faith effort to discuss.

Prove me wrong.

[David]

Sorry, I didn't know if God's nature was his holiness. Please forgive me.