Marriage advice

I'm a 22 year old brother in the local churches. I was looking for some advice on marriage. I've heard some horror stories about how some (not all) elder brothers have interfered with certain courtships between some brothers and sisters, leading to some forced marriages, brewing unhappiness between both sides, inevitably ending in divorce.

I'm adamant to admit anything about marriage to anyone yet because of this. My parents often bring up the question time and time again, with which I always try to evade saying "I'm interested in so-and-so" or "I haven't met the right person yet." I feel a bit guilty since I'm giving my parents false hope, as I'm considering celibacy.

My reason for celibacy is because I have same sex attraction to guys. I've had this attraction since I was 11. I'm extremely alone on this matter, and have yet to mention it to anyone, apart from an online stranger I've confided in. I don't think I could handle the rejection, being ostracised or the gossip by other saints if I open up to them.

At this stage I fear that I'll be alone when I'm older, and the reality that no one will look after me if I ever fall ill. My mother also expresses the same worries to me almost daily.

I was hoping someone could possibly give me guidance or some advice on how to navigate this? I worry that I'll eventually succumb to negative thoughts being alone, and result to self-harm since I've read cases about it happening to people in similar situations. But I'm also afraid of caving into expectations put up by my parents, and settling in a marriage where me and my wife won't truly happy. As for taking away the possibility of starting a family from someone, who wishes it.

[UntoHim]

lostsheep,
Thank you for having the courage and fortitude to come to our little forum and open your heart about your struggles. As a young Christian within the Local Church of Witness Lee, this makes your struggles even more difficult. Rest assured that there are many here on our forum who will be putting you in our thoughts and prayers.

All this being said, I am afraid that LocalChurchDiscussions is probably not the best place for finding the help and wise counselling for someone in your position. I would imagine that there are a few brothers who are forum members, or at least lurkers, who may be able to give you some helpful advise, and we will give a limited amount of time for them to get in touch with you. You may want to consider joining the forum, which would afford you the opportunity to receive Private Messages through our PM system.

In the meantime, you may want to take a look at these websites. I'm sure there are many more out there. Also I would highly recommend that you start reading the Psalms as much as your time allows.

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles...g-for-intimacy

https://www.biblicalcounselingcoalit...ex-attraction/
~

[bearbear]

Professor Chris Yuan was born with same sex attraction and came by my local church once and gave his testimony on his journey to faith. You might find these two books by him helpful:

"Out of a Far Country: A Gay Son's Journey to God. A Broken Mother's Search for Hope"

"Holy Sexuality and the Gospel: Sex, Desire, and Relationships Shaped by God's Grand Story"

One of Dr Yuan's main points is that while homosexuality is sin, becoming heterosexual is not necessarily the goal either since just being straight doesn't make you saved rather God wants us to be holy.

You might also find reddit.com/r/TrueChristian helpful for finding other believers who are going through what you are. For example this thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristi..._my_sexuality/

[aron]

Originally Posted by lostsheep

At this stage I fear that I'll be alone when I'm older, and the reality that no one will look after me if I ever fall ill. My mother also expresses the same worries to me almost daily.

Your mother expressing worry to you almost daily does NOT sound Christian. Consider the source of the pressure that is bringing you to this state, where you post here. There is another motive source in this universe. Think about tapping into that source, following it, and everything will work out.

Remember the story of Samson & Delilah -- he was the toughest dude around, and got harassed constantly by his lover/companion, to the point where he got driven to distraction & cried out, "Alright, alright already!! I'll cut my hair!!"

That's not the way to make decisions. Certainly not life-altering ones. Find the source of peace in your daily walk, and it will eventually penetrate everything, even the big life decisions.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by aron

Your mother expressing worry to you almost daily does NOT sound Christian. Consider the source of the pressure that is bringing you to this state, where you post here. There is another motive source in this universe. Think about tapping into that source, following it, and everything will work out.

Remember the story of Samson & Delilah -- he was the toughest dude around, and got harassed constantly by his lover/companion, to the point where he got driven to distraction & cried out, "Alright, alright already!! I'll cut my hair!!"

That's not the way to make decisions. Certainly not life-altering ones. Find the source of peace in your daily walk, and it will eventually penetrate everything, even the big life decisions.

Hi LostSheep,
The good news about being a "lost sheep" ... the Savior is out looking for you!

Hopefully you will to register for an account on the forum. The advantage is that you will have other options for communication, including private messaging. Sorry the username "lostsheep" is not available, but maybe "Found Sheep" would work?

I have to say I can't agree with Aron on his assessment. Sorry Aron. To explain:

I believe your mother is doing her job. She loves you and is clearly worried about you. Whether she is attempting to be "Christian" in her concern about you is not something we can know. We are not there in the room with you and your mom. I have a friend who is legitimately concerned for her son (on another matter) and is at a total loss at how to help him and is grasping at straws. Your mother may be right there with her.

When I was a very young child, my mother would read me a story, again and again, about a little lost sheep named "Snowflake". I loved the story. Snowflake had wandered off from the fold and lost his way. A line from the story, the only line I remember (!) is "Snowflake! Come back!"

So, maybe you would ask, "How do I "come back?" Where is "back"? How did I get here? You may have more questions, but these were some of my questions, over the years.

Finding your way back to Him involves a blunt, honest, conversation with him. I told him things like: "Lord, I don't want to do what you're asking me to do. I can't. I don't know how. If I do what you want, I might as well stay "lost". If you want this from me, you'll have to do it because I can't, I don't know how, and I don't want to anyway." You'll have to make me want to obey you.

Honest about what? Start with your "feelings and attractions". Feelings and attractions are, after all, emotions. Ask him how you are supposed to STOP feeling what you feel. Are my feelings real?

All of this is related to the sacrificial nature of the Christian life, beginning back in the Old Testament, which is painfully described in Genesis 22 when God called upon Abraham to offer his son Isaac as a sacrifice.

Having such conversations with our Good Shepherd can be painful. It's important to remember that he is the "Good Shepherd" and remember that even with Abraham, God spared the life of his son Isaac. Also, God didn't spare the life of his own son, but he gave him for us. That, and, his Son willingly gave himself a sacrifice as his Father required him to do.

I hope this helps.

Nell

[JorgeP]

In the last few days I was meeting with the brothers of the ministry in Madrid, there was a very pretty sister of Spanish origin, physically the way I like a woman, younger than me, and she was consecrated, serving full-time in the congregation where I was meeting. Possibly she liked me, because once in a meeting we were talking about how Rebekah had given water to Abraham's servant to confirm that she was the girl he had for his son Isaac, and he was confirmed through that act of service and care. Precisely in that prayer meeting, after the prayer session, while interacting with the brothers in the house where we were meeting, she approached me and gave me a glass of water.

I felt in my heart that this seemed to be a sign, and I found it very interesting. Later, after I had stopped meeting with the brothers of this ministry, I met with a brother and asked him what was happening with her life. He told me that the brothers were planning for her to marry a brother from the "training" who was in another town, who was almost 12 years older than her, and so on. I sensed that this marriage was arranged by men, and it saddened me that this sister had been "kept, or rather sold," to a man with privileges within that ministry.

The hierarchical men of the Recovery Ministry are not fools; they set aside the most beautiful and younger sisters for the privileged men within that ministry. Without a doubt, the privileges of religious men within that ministry are: position, fame, money, and beautiful women.

So, young brother, if you fall in love with a sister within the Recovery Ministry, you must be courageous and overcome. The healthiest thing is to help her leave that ministry and join you in the calling the Lord has for you. If you choose to stay within the Recovery Ministry and overcome there, you will have to marry secretly and without the permission of the hierarchical men of that church, since they will most likely defame you so that that sister, even more beautiful, will not marry you and give her to some man who benefits the hierarchical interests of the Recovery Movement.

[PikaMario]

OP's situation doesn't seem to be a particular issue against the local church. As untohim mentioned, you'll probably have to get help another way. but I thought id use this thread to share my own experience.

i married (and still am married) to a sister in the church. We both finished the full time training. However when we began courting shortly after finishing the training, she was serving under a very well-known, very controlling coworker of the Lord's recovery. He had a multi-year plan for her to learn a trade and migrate to a foreign land to get a job in that field so she could support herself and preach the gospel in that foreign country. Even though we were both in our mid 20s at the time, he felt it was too soon for her to get married and criticized me for not acting in fellowship with the body about courting her. The thing is, i was in a lot of fellowship with a lot of anaheim brothers, i even briefly spoke about the matter with the big dog Ron Kangas. this other coworker made the accusation out of nowhere. thankfully even though at the time i still admired and respected the brothers in the recovery, i had enough sense to fight for my wife and save her from that wretched controlling plan. this brother also told my wife that I was not allowed to step foot in the city she was serving in. Who does he think he is? I did it anyway and we just hung out without telling him.

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by lostsheep

My reason for celibacy is because I have same sex attraction to guys. I've had this attraction since I was 11. I'm extremely alone on this matter, and have yet to mention it to anyone, apart from an online stranger I've confided in. I don't think I could handle the rejection, being ostracised or the gossip by other saints if I open up to them.

At this stage I fear that I'll be alone when I'm older, and the reality that no one will look after me if I ever fall ill. My mother also expresses the same worries to me almost daily.

I was hoping someone could possibly give me guidance or some advice on how to navigate this? I worry that I'll eventually succumb to negative thoughts being alone, and result to self-harm since I've read cases about it happening to people in similar situations. But I'm also afraid of caving into expectations put up by my parents, and settling in a marriage where me and my wife won't truly happy. As for taking away the possibility of starting a family from someone, who wishes it.

Hi brother,
Thank you for sharing. Sadly, places like LC have not been safe or helpful environments for people struggling with mental health issues or addictions. In my 25 years there, I never once heard an open or honest conversation about sex, masturbation, pornography, or same-sex attraction. These topics were treated as shameful and taboo, creating the false impression that no one in the church struggled with them.
I believe much suffering could have been avoided if there had been more transparency, empathy, and understanding. Please know you are not alone in this. Many others are walking through similar struggles, feeling isolated and hopeless in Local churches. It could be even in your locality but because of the LC shame-inducing culture and isolation, there is no way to truly connect with anyone and receive help.
I don’t know your full story, but I want to reassure you. There is hope, and there are effective resources in the Body of Christ that can help you find healing and freedom. However, these resources are not found within the Lord’s Recovery. You may need to look outside of that environment to find the help you need.
There are countless testimonies of people who have experienced transformation, finding freedom from same-sex attraction, experiencing healing, and even going on to build loving families with opposite sex. Here are some examples just after quick search on Internet:

• Florida Family Policy Council – Leaving the Gay Lifestyle
• CHANGED Movement – Stories of Transformation
• Joel 2:25 International – Blog and Testimonies

While today’s culture promotes certain narratives as “settled science,” it’s important to dig deeper. The idea of a "gay gene" or that people are simply "born this way" doesn’t hold up under honest scrutiny. Many experts, even outside of Christian circles, acknowledge that same-sex attraction can be always traced back to unresolved childhood experiences, it may be sexual abuse, neglect, abandonment, a distant or absent father, or an overbearing mother. Cultural influences, pornography, and trauma all play a role.
Ultimately, same-sex attraction is about identity and shame. Somewhere along the way, a lie was planted, about who you are and what your worth is. That lie brought with it shame, confusion, and false guilt. True healing begins when you begin to see yourself the way God sees you, with love, compassion, and deep delight. He is not ashamed of you. He understands you better than anyone, and He is for you.
Real healing takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It involves reprogramming your mind with God’s truth and rejecting the enemy’s lies, false judgements and vows. It also requires healthy relationships. You weren’t meant to walk this path alone. Educate yourself with wise and balanced books, but also seek out experienced counselors, strong Christian mentors, and deep, healthy friendships especially with other godly men. Avoid pornography and masturbation, as these only reinforce false identity and deepen the cycle of shame.
You are still young. You have time. Be patient with yourself. Be kind and gracious to yourself. God’s truth brings freedom, but it often comes gradually. Walk this path step by step and know that you are not walking alone. Believe in God that he is in control and he can use your struggle eventually for his glory and to help others.
With love and hope,
TF777

[lostfaust]

Thank you for all who've responded to my initial question! Much appreciated for the advice and guidance. I've just registered for a membership here, so any DMs are most welcome. I'm not sure if I'm ready to share anything with a therapist or a counsellor yet, instead I plan to read up on the resources and book recommendations many of you have suggested.

Otherwise, I have another common question other people may have asked already. Should I still use the LC recovery bible? I am aware that the general consensus on this forum is that the footnotes are Witness Lee's interpretation/perspective of the Bible, and should be disregarded for being harmful and misleading. Could anyone back this up? I am also curious on whether I should continue reading LC ministry books at all, since they were helpful in the beginning of my Christian journey, but eventually felt like ideals or standards of a "Christian" I could never meet.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by lostfaust

I am also curious on whether I should continue reading LC ministry books at all, since they were helpful in the beginning of my Christian journey, but eventually felt like ideals or standards of a "Christian" I could never meet.

People on this forum will have different opinions but for myself I had to deprogram myself of many of Witness Lee's teachings which were unbiblical before I could understand the bible. One premise of the Lord's Recovery is that the early church started off good and degraded over time. I actually have come to agree with Witness Lee on this point but I disagree with him on his approach to the "Lord's Recovery" which was to take in leaven from teachers hundreds of years removed from the early church who held to speculative theologies and add on his own invented leaven as well. Instead he could have just researched what the early church believed which was often the most literal interpretation of the bible.

Also, my conclusion is today there is no real one true church as an organization but the church is composed of true believers spread across many different groups and denominations which have varying degrees of leaven so don't expect to find a perfect church and if some group claims to be the one true church, run away!

Going back to deprogramming, this web page helped me as a starting point to uncover the major false doctrines Lee taught: http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html

I also wish someone had told me to research what the early church believed about salvation so I wouldn't waste time with theologies like Calvinism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVN7NXqwjro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzqDV91AFPo

There is also an important method to understand the bible known as "scripture interprets scripture" I wish I had known earlier. If scripture which is breathed by the Holy Spirit (2 Tim 3:16-17) interprets itself, then you don't really need commentary though they can be helpful at times. Whenever you come across a verse you don't understand, there is often another verse that explains it.

1 John 2:27
But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

That said I have found gifted teachers on youtube that have helped me tremendously. For example, Sam Shamoun's explanation of Job recently brought me to tears:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYeOb798ZY

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I actually have come to agree with Witness Lee on this point but I disagree with him on his approach to the "Lord's Recovery" which was to take in leaven from teachers hundreds of years removed from the early church who held to speculative theologies and add on his own invented leaven as well. Instead he could have just researched what the early church believed which was often the most literal interpretation of the bible.

You probably know that there was already a lot of leaven in the early Church. We even have early Catholic tendencies in Clement and Ignatius. It seems that Paul's warning in Acts 20:29 already applied to the second generation.

Originally Posted by bearbear

Also, my conclusion is today there is no real one true church as an organization but the church is composed of true believers spread across many different groups and denominations

That's certainly a very wise conclusion from a human perspective. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to me to be the one from the Word of God.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by PeterG

You probably know that there was already a lot of leaven in the early Church. We already find early Catholic tendencies in Clement and Ignatius. It seems that Paul's warning in Acts 20:29 already applied to the second generation.

The warning in Acts 20:29 is applied to false teachers & wolves who Jesus said are not saved and destined to be burned in fire (Matt 7:15-20). Among them were the docetists who deny the deity of Christ (1 John 4:2-3) and false grace teachers who taught that grace is a license to sin (Jude 1:4). Jesus also calls out these false teachers in his letter to the churches in Revelation and identifies the types of sins they promoted (Revelation 2:14-15, 2:20-21).

Clement was a co-labourer with Paul and an elder in Rome and Ignatius and Polycarp were disciples of John. Both them grew up with Koine Greek as their mother tongue and understood the language and culture of the NT. Imagine you had Paul or John as your discipler and you could ask them questions like "Did Jesus really forbid divorce and remarriage? What did he mean by [except for porneia]?"

Scripture is our final authority but it's at least worth a look to see what they wrote [compared to say Witness Lee who is almost 2000 years removed from the original apostles and relied on outdated concordances to understand the Greek] and often their interpretation was very close to a literal reading of scripture. Ignatius went a little heavy into church hierarchy but he also viewed his own authority as limited and viewed other Christian leaders as equals in running the Christian race together.

They were trusted by the first generation apostles to upload the traditions taught to them. Most of the bad leaven came after Rome adopted Christianity as the official state religion such as prayer to the saints and Mary.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

A side note: it is interesting to read the writings of Polycarp. Although he was discipled by John, he quotes Paul extensively in his writings which implies that John could have been a huge advocate of Paul. This shows the unity in the early church where they did not necessarily cling to one leader but there was a plurality of leaders.

The church fathers also quoted the New Testament so much that you can compose the entire New Testament from their quotes. When you read their writings you realize they valued scripture so highly that they quote and let the verses speak for themselves rather than try to over-interpret. They were also involved in putting together the New Testament canon by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by PeterG

That's certainly a very wise conclusion from a human perspective. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to me to be the one from the Word of God.

Maybe, but Jesus seems to imply that when he returns, he will find little faith on the earth. And Paul says there will be a great apostasy near the end times. So it's unlikely there is going to be a world wide revival and strong one true church but rather a remnant of true believers scattered around as was often the case in the Old Testament (1 Kings 19:18).

Luke 18:8
“... Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

2 Thessalonians 2:3
“Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…”

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by bearbear

The warning in Acts 20:29 is applied to false teachers & wolves who Jesus said are not saved and destined to be burned in fire (Matt 7:15-20). Among them were the docetists who deny the deity of Christ (1 John 4:2-3) and false grace teachers who taught that grace is a license to sin (Jude 1:4). Jesus also calls out these false teachers in his letter to the churches in Revelation and identifies the types of sins they promoted (Revelation 2:14-15, 2:20-21).

Clement was a co-labourer with Paul and an elder in Rome and Ignatius and Polycarp were disciples of John. Both them grew up with Koine Greek as their mother tongue and understood the language and culture of the NT. Imagine you had Paul or John as your discipler and you could ask them questions like "Did Jesus really forbid divorce and remarriage? What did he mean by [except for porneia]?"

Scripture is our final authority but it's at least worth a look to see what they wrote [compared to say Witness Lee who is almost 2000 years removed from the original apostles and relied on outdated concordances to understand the Greek] and often their interpretation was very close to a literal reading of scripture. Ignatius went a little heavy into church hierarchy but he also viewed his own authority as limited and viewed other Christian leaders as equals in running the Christian race together.

They were trusted by the first generation apostles to upload the traditions taught to them. Most of the bad leaven came after Rome adopted Christianity as the official state religion such as prayer to the saints and Mary.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

A side note: it is interesting to read the writings of Polycarp. Although he was discipled by John, he quotes Paul extensively in his writings which implies that John could have been a huge advocate of Paul. This shows the unity in the early church where they did not necessarily cling to one leader but there was a plurality of leaders.

The church fathers also quoted the New Testament so much that you can compose the entire New Testament from their quotes. When you read their writings you realize they valued scripture so highly that they quote and let the verses speak for themselves rather than try to over-interpret. They were also involved in putting together the New Testament canon by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.



Maybe, but Jesus seems to imply that when he returns, he will find little faith on the earth. And Paul says there will be a great apostasy near the end times. So it's unlikely there is going to be a world wide revival and strong one true church but rather a remnant of true believers scattered around as was often the case in the Old Testament (1 Kings 19:18).

Luke 18:8
“... Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

2 Thessalonians 2:3
“Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…”

Apparently, you mean by early church the time of the "Apostolic Fathers". So, not Irenaeus and Tertullian anymore?
I used to want to view the second generation so positively, too. And I thought: Wow, they were so close. They must be good. Until I read them carefully myself. Then I thought: Wow, that's exactly what Paul meant. Notice that he is talking about those who follow after him. Not about some Docetists. It's Ignatius who argues against them.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by PeterG

Apparently, you mean by early church the time of the "Apostolic Fathers". So, not Irenaeus and Tertullian anymore?
I used to want to view the second generation so positively, too. And I thought: Wow, they were so close. They must be good. Until I read them carefully myself. Then I thought: Wow, that's exactly what Paul meant. Notice that he is talking about those who follow after him. Not about some Docetists. It's Ignatius who argues against them.

Jude 1:4
For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Here Jude literally says that some of these false Christians are among us and perverted grace as a license for sin and they are destined for destruction.

I don't think Ignatius perverted grace or taught any doctrine worthy of being labeled a wolf. Why do you think Ignatius was a wolf and hence a bad tree destined for fire? (Matthew 7:15-20). He never called people to follow him and said his authority was limited.

“I do not issue orders to you as if I were someone important. For even though I am in chains for the Name, I am not yet perfect in Jesus Christ. For now, I am only beginning to be a disciple, and I am speaking to you as my fellow disciples.”
— Magnesians 15:1

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I don't think Ignatius perverted grace or taught any doctrine worthy of being labeled a wolf. Why do you think Ignatius was a wolf and hence a bad tree destined for fire? (Matthew 7:15-20). He never called people to follow him and said his authority was limited.

There are certainly many good points about Ignatius! But read him carefully in the spirit of Paul. He dislikes created things, is legalistic, sacramentalist, says we can do nothing without the bishop, has nothing to say about love, and doesn't understand the Church as the Body of Christ.
I have to admit, it's been a long time since I looked into Apostolic Fathers. But I still remember being quite shocked at how quickly change happened. The vocabulary remains the same, especially with Polycarp (whose personal testimony is, of course, so great!) - but the content does not. :-(

[Nell]

OK, guys. I think this topic has gone far astray from Marriage advice. If you want to continue in this vein, please start a new topic.

Thanks--
Nell & UntoHim
Admins/Moderators

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by Nell

OK, guys. I think this topic has gone far astray from Marriage advice. If you want to continue in this vein, please start a new topic.

Thanks--
Nell & UntoHim
Admins/Moderators

Ok, let's find marriage advice from Ignatius...

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Maybe, but Jesus seems to imply that when he returns, he will find little faith on the earth. And Paul says there will be a great apostasy near the end times. So it's unlikely there is going to be a world wide revival and strong one true church but rather a remnant of true believers scattered around as was often the case in the Old Testament (1 Kings 19:18).

As long as we can continue here... @ Admins: maybe you could rename the thread to “marriage advice & church history” or something like that?

Bearbear, I agree on that, and if I read my Bible correctly, we can expect 5 things, 3 organizational and 2 individual:

a) The great prostitute spoken of in Revelation – which may well be a “strong church” in worldly perspecive.
b) Sects of which Paul warns us (Acts 20:29-30, 1 Corinthians 1:10-13, Galatians 5:20).
c) Genuine churches, but with very different qualities (as in Rev 2-3).
d) Saved people in all three organizations.
e) True witnesses/overcomers who, however, if they are true witnesses of God's will and work, will probably not be in a or b.

[bearbear]

My theology has shifted after leaving the LCs. I hold to a traditional true/false Christian dichotomy and not to overcomer/non-overcoming believer/unbeliever trichotomy which Lee and Nee inherited from a faction within the Brethren (Govett, Lang and Panton). Some of the reasons for this are described by George Zeller (who is a traditional dispensationalist) here: https://www.middletownbiblechurch.or...e/hodgesgn.htm

For me an overcomer is synonymous with a truly born again Christian (1 John 5:4 because everyone born of God overcomes the world). The implication then is that few are actually saved as Jesus warned many times (Matthew 7:13–14, Luke 13:23–24, Matthew 22:14). So someone who claims to be a Christian but lives a sinful lifestyle is not actually saved (https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...eally+Free.pdf)

I also lean towards a pre-wrath view of the rapture and like the early church fathers, think the church will be around to face the anti-christ. Meaning if we are alive during that time, we will have to choose between taking the mark of the beast to save our life or martyrdom (Revelation 13:16–17).

I think it will be a time of testing and many who are not true Christians will take the mark to save their own life and betray other Christians which may be the apostasy that Paul warns about (2 Thessalonians 2:3). So the true church will consist of a tiny remnant of believers who refused the mark. Jesus seems to describe this chaos in Matthew 24:9-13.

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by bearbear

My theology has shifted after leaving the LCs. I hold to a traditional true/false Christian dichotomy and not to overcomer/non-overcoming believer/unbeliever trichotomy which Lee and Nee inherited from a faction within the Brethren (Govett, Lang and Panton). Some of the reasons for this are described by George Zeller (who is a traditional dispensationalist) here: https://www.middletownbiblechurch.or...e/hodgesgn.htm

For me an overcomer is synonymous with a truly born again Christian (1 John 5:4 because everyone born of God overcomes the world). The implication then is that few are actually saved as Jesus warned many times (Matthew 7:13–14, Luke 13:23–24, Matthew 22:14). So someone who claims to be a Christian but lives a sinful lifestyle is not actually saved (https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...eally+Free.pdf)

I also lean towards a pre-wrath view of the rapture and like the early church fathers, think the church will be around to face the anti-christ. Meaning if we are alive during that time, we will have to choose between taking the mark of the beast to save our life or martyrdom (Revelation 13:16–17).

I think it will be a time of testing and many who are not true Christians will take the mark to save their own life and betray other Christians which may be the apostasy that Paul warns about (2 Thessalonians 2:3). So the true church will consist of a tiny remnant of believers who refused the mark. Jesus seems to describe this chaos in Matthew 24:9-13.

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

That's certainly a good and solid position which I don't really want to disagree. But there are some nuances - in the Bible as well as in reality. For example, what do you think about an average Catholic today who wants to remain loyal to his church with its many strange teachings, but is saved because he believes in the forgiveness of his sins through Jesus? Do you consider him a "truly born again Christian”? And is he in the same category as someone who will steadfastly refuse the mark in the future?

[bearbear]

Pistis (lexical form) [noun], Pisteos (possessive version of pistis) – Pistis in most translations is rendered as faith but instead should probably be rendered as vow to faithful relationship as the truer understanding of the word in the early church. It probably could just be rendered as vow (or pledge) and it stems from the idea of covenant loyalty. It is therefore probably best linked to a covenant (think like a wedding vow or a pledging of allegiance) but faithful relationship (or covenant loyalty) could be added for emphasis and further clarification considering the English world’s vast misunderstanding of the word.

https://thelogosofagape.wordpress.co...ek-word-study/

The idea that faith in the NT could be understood as a kind of "allegiance" to the god you worship is consistent with the mark of the beast being the ultimate test for faith. A Protestant can go to church every Sunday and tithe and a Catholic can attend mass every week, recite the rosary, do confession etc but when presented with the choice of dying as a martyr or saving their own life to take the mark what will they do? Their choice will depend on the real god they worship.

Luke 17:33
Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

There was probably a similar test during Elijah's time in Israel. Jezebel like Nebuchadnezzar may have created an environment where anyone who did not worship Baal was at risk of being put to death. Only 7,000 out of a nation of hundreds of thousands had never bent their knee to Baal.

1 Kings 19:18
Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

[bearbear]

To bring this topic back to marriage advice, I also recommend OP to read "Till Death Do Us Part?" by Dr. Joseph Webb to understand that marriage is truly for life. If you do marry, God will supernaturally join you to your wife and that bond will exist until either of you dies (1 Cor 7:39, Romans 7:2-3). So if you choose a wife, do so carefully because you may only have one chance in this lifetime and make sure you do it because you truly love her and not out of social obligation because it won't be fair to her otherwise.

Matthew 19:6 (KJV)
"Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by lostsheep

I was hoping someone could possibly give me guidance or some advice on how to navigate this?

Hi Unregistered, I commend you for reaching out and you obviously have given your situation much thought. Since you are still meeting within the LC system the only thing I could recommend is that you reach out to someone I know personally on the outside who has already walked that path. His name is Axxxxx Wxxxxx and you can find him on FB At the very least you could ask him and his miracle wife to pray for you.

All the best...

P.S.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Hi Unregistered, I commend you for reaching out and you obviously have given your situation much thought. Since you are still meeting within the LC system the only thing I could recommend is that you reach out to someone I know personally on the outside who has already walked that path. His name is Axxxxx Wxxxxx and you can find him on FB xxxxx. At the very least you could ask him and his miracle wife to pray for you.

All the best...

P.S.

PS
It is against our security policies to reveal the personal names of others without their permission. I deleted the name you provided, and the link to his FB account. Any unregistered user. should register for an account to communicate privately with our members, that is, if this unregistered user so desires. This includes AxxxxWxxxx. Ifyou’re trying to find a way for non-members to communicate through the forum, for security and other reasons, we can’t accommodate this. Sorry.

Nell
Admin/Moderator