Marriage advice

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by PeterG

You probably know that there was already a lot of leaven in the early Church. We already find early Catholic tendencies in Clement and Ignatius. It seems that Paul's warning in Acts 20:29 already applied to the second generation.

The warning in Acts 20:29 is applied to false teachers & wolves who Jesus said are not saved and destined to be burned in fire (Matt 7:15-20). Among them were the docetists who deny the deity of Christ (1 John 4:2-3) and false grace teachers who taught that grace is a license to sin (Jude 1:4). Jesus also calls out these false teachers in his letter to the churches in Revelation and identifies the types of sins they promoted (Revelation 2:14-15, 2:20-21).

Clement was a co-labourer with Paul and an elder in Rome and Ignatius and Polycarp were disciples of John. Both them grew up with Koine Greek as their mother tongue and understood the language and culture of the NT. Imagine you had Paul or John as your discipler and you could ask them questions like "Did Jesus really forbid divorce and remarriage? What did he mean by [except for porneia]?"

Scripture is our final authority but it's at least worth a look to see what they wrote [compared to say Witness Lee who is almost 2000 years removed from the original apostles and relied on outdated concordances to understand the Greek] and often their interpretation was very close to a literal reading of scripture. Ignatius went a little heavy into church hierarchy but he also viewed his own authority as limited and viewed other Christian leaders as equals in running the Christian race together.

They were trusted by the first generation apostles to upload the traditions taught to them. Most of the bad leaven came after Rome adopted Christianity as the official state religion such as prayer to the saints and Mary.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

A side note: it is interesting to read the writings of Polycarp. Although he was discipled by John, he quotes Paul extensively in his writings which implies that John could have been a huge advocate of Paul. This shows the unity in the early church where they did not necessarily cling to one leader but there was a plurality of leaders.

The church fathers also quoted the New Testament so much that you can compose the entire New Testament from their quotes. When you read their writings you realize they valued scripture so highly that they quote and let the verses speak for themselves rather than try to over-interpret. They were also involved in putting together the New Testament canon by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by PeterG

That's certainly a very wise conclusion from a human perspective. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to me to be the one from the Word of God.

Maybe, but Jesus seems to imply that when he returns, he will find little faith on the earth. And Paul says there will be a great apostasy near the end times. So it's unlikely there is going to be a world wide revival and strong one true church but rather a remnant of true believers scattered around as was often the case in the Old Testament (1 Kings 19:18).

Luke 18:8
“... Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

2 Thessalonians 2:3
“Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…”

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by bearbear

The warning in Acts 20:29 is applied to false teachers & wolves who Jesus said are not saved and destined to be burned in fire (Matt 7:15-20). Among them were the docetists who deny the deity of Christ (1 John 4:2-3) and false grace teachers who taught that grace is a license to sin (Jude 1:4). Jesus also calls out these false teachers in his letter to the churches in Revelation and identifies the types of sins they promoted (Revelation 2:14-15, 2:20-21).

Clement was a co-labourer with Paul and an elder in Rome and Ignatius and Polycarp were disciples of John. Both them grew up with Koine Greek as their mother tongue and understood the language and culture of the NT. Imagine you had Paul or John as your discipler and you could ask them questions like "Did Jesus really forbid divorce and remarriage? What did he mean by [except for porneia]?"

Scripture is our final authority but it's at least worth a look to see what they wrote [compared to say Witness Lee who is almost 2000 years removed from the original apostles and relied on outdated concordances to understand the Greek] and often their interpretation was very close to a literal reading of scripture. Ignatius went a little heavy into church hierarchy but he also viewed his own authority as limited and viewed other Christian leaders as equals in running the Christian race together.

They were trusted by the first generation apostles to upload the traditions taught to them. Most of the bad leaven came after Rome adopted Christianity as the official state religion such as prayer to the saints and Mary.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

A side note: it is interesting to read the writings of Polycarp. Although he was discipled by John, he quotes Paul extensively in his writings which implies that John could have been a huge advocate of Paul. This shows the unity in the early church where they did not necessarily cling to one leader but there was a plurality of leaders.

The church fathers also quoted the New Testament so much that you can compose the entire New Testament from their quotes. When you read their writings you realize they valued scripture so highly that they quote and let the verses speak for themselves rather than try to over-interpret. They were also involved in putting together the New Testament canon by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.



Maybe, but Jesus seems to imply that when he returns, he will find little faith on the earth. And Paul says there will be a great apostasy near the end times. So it's unlikely there is going to be a world wide revival and strong one true church but rather a remnant of true believers scattered around as was often the case in the Old Testament (1 Kings 19:18).

Luke 18:8
“... Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

2 Thessalonians 2:3
“Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…”

Apparently, you mean by early church the time of the "Apostolic Fathers". So, not Irenaeus and Tertullian anymore?
I used to want to view the second generation so positively, too. And I thought: Wow, they were so close. They must be good. Until I read them carefully myself. Then I thought: Wow, that's exactly what Paul meant. Notice that he is talking about those who follow after him. Not about some Docetists. It's Ignatius who argues against them.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by PeterG

Apparently, you mean by early church the time of the "Apostolic Fathers". So, not Irenaeus and Tertullian anymore?
I used to want to view the second generation so positively, too. And I thought: Wow, they were so close. They must be good. Until I read them carefully myself. Then I thought: Wow, that's exactly what Paul meant. Notice that he is talking about those who follow after him. Not about some Docetists. It's Ignatius who argues against them.

Jude 1:4
For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Here Jude literally says that some of these false Christians are among us and perverted grace as a license for sin and they are destined for destruction.

I don't think Ignatius perverted grace or taught any doctrine worthy of being labeled a wolf. Why do you think Ignatius was a wolf and hence a bad tree destined for fire? (Matthew 7:15-20). He never called people to follow him and said his authority was limited.

“I do not issue orders to you as if I were someone important. For even though I am in chains for the Name, I am not yet perfect in Jesus Christ. For now, I am only beginning to be a disciple, and I am speaking to you as my fellow disciples.”
— Magnesians 15:1

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I don't think Ignatius perverted grace or taught any doctrine worthy of being labeled a wolf. Why do you think Ignatius was a wolf and hence a bad tree destined for fire? (Matthew 7:15-20). He never called people to follow him and said his authority was limited.

There are certainly many good points about Ignatius! But read him carefully in the spirit of Paul. He dislikes created things, is legalistic, sacramentalist, says we can do nothing without the bishop, has nothing to say about love, and doesn't understand the Church as the Body of Christ.
I have to admit, it's been a long time since I looked into Apostolic Fathers. But I still remember being quite shocked at how quickly change happened. The vocabulary remains the same, especially with Polycarp (whose personal testimony is, of course, so great!) - but the content does not. :-(

[Nell]

OK, guys. I think this topic has gone far astray from Marriage advice. If you want to continue in this vein, please start a new topic.

Thanks--
Nell & UntoHim
Admins/Moderators

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by Nell

OK, guys. I think this topic has gone far astray from Marriage advice. If you want to continue in this vein, please start a new topic.

Thanks--
Nell & UntoHim
Admins/Moderators

Ok, let's find marriage advice from Ignatius...

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Maybe, but Jesus seems to imply that when he returns, he will find little faith on the earth. And Paul says there will be a great apostasy near the end times. So it's unlikely there is going to be a world wide revival and strong one true church but rather a remnant of true believers scattered around as was often the case in the Old Testament (1 Kings 19:18).

As long as we can continue here... @ Admins: maybe you could rename the thread to “marriage advice & church history” or something like that?

Bearbear, I agree on that, and if I read my Bible correctly, we can expect 5 things, 3 organizational and 2 individual:

a) The great prostitute spoken of in Revelation – which may well be a “strong church” in worldly perspecive.
b) Sects of which Paul warns us (Acts 20:29-30, 1 Corinthians 1:10-13, Galatians 5:20).
c) Genuine churches, but with very different qualities (as in Rev 2-3).
d) Saved people in all three organizations.
e) True witnesses/overcomers who, however, if they are true witnesses of God's will and work, will probably not be in a or b.

[bearbear]

My theology has shifted after leaving the LCs. I hold to a traditional true/false Christian dichotomy and not to overcomer/non-overcoming believer/unbeliever trichotomy which Lee and Nee inherited from a faction within the Brethren (Govett, Lang and Panton). Some of the reasons for this are described by George Zeller (who is a traditional dispensationalist) here: https://www.middletownbiblechurch.or...e/hodgesgn.htm

For me an overcomer is synonymous with a truly born again Christian (1 John 5:4 because everyone born of God overcomes the world). The implication then is that few are actually saved as Jesus warned many times (Matthew 7:13–14, Luke 13:23–24, Matthew 22:14). So someone who claims to be a Christian but lives a sinful lifestyle is not actually saved (https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...eally+Free.pdf)

I also lean towards a pre-wrath view of the rapture and like the early church fathers, think the church will be around to face the anti-christ. Meaning if we are alive during that time, we will have to choose between taking the mark of the beast to save our life or martyrdom (Revelation 13:16–17).

I think it will be a time of testing and many who are not true Christians will take the mark to save their own life and betray other Christians which may be the apostasy that Paul warns about (2 Thessalonians 2:3). So the true church will consist of a tiny remnant of believers who refused the mark. Jesus seems to describe this chaos in Matthew 24:9-13.

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by bearbear

My theology has shifted after leaving the LCs. I hold to a traditional true/false Christian dichotomy and not to overcomer/non-overcoming believer/unbeliever trichotomy which Lee and Nee inherited from a faction within the Brethren (Govett, Lang and Panton). Some of the reasons for this are described by George Zeller (who is a traditional dispensationalist) here: https://www.middletownbiblechurch.or...e/hodgesgn.htm

For me an overcomer is synonymous with a truly born again Christian (1 John 5:4 because everyone born of God overcomes the world). The implication then is that few are actually saved as Jesus warned many times (Matthew 7:13–14, Luke 13:23–24, Matthew 22:14). So someone who claims to be a Christian but lives a sinful lifestyle is not actually saved (https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...eally+Free.pdf)

I also lean towards a pre-wrath view of the rapture and like the early church fathers, think the church will be around to face the anti-christ. Meaning if we are alive during that time, we will have to choose between taking the mark of the beast to save our life or martyrdom (Revelation 13:16–17).

I think it will be a time of testing and many who are not true Christians will take the mark to save their own life and betray other Christians which may be the apostasy that Paul warns about (2 Thessalonians 2:3). So the true church will consist of a tiny remnant of believers who refused the mark. Jesus seems to describe this chaos in Matthew 24:9-13.

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

That's certainly a good and solid position which I don't really want to disagree. But there are some nuances - in the Bible as well as in reality. For example, what do you think about an average Catholic today who wants to remain loyal to his church with its many strange teachings, but is saved because he believes in the forgiveness of his sins through Jesus? Do you consider him a "truly born again Christian”? And is he in the same category as someone who will steadfastly refuse the mark in the future?

[bearbear]

Pistis (lexical form) [noun], Pisteos (possessive version of pistis) – Pistis in most translations is rendered as faith but instead should probably be rendered as vow to faithful relationship as the truer understanding of the word in the early church. It probably could just be rendered as vow (or pledge) and it stems from the idea of covenant loyalty. It is therefore probably best linked to a covenant (think like a wedding vow or a pledging of allegiance) but faithful relationship (or covenant loyalty) could be added for emphasis and further clarification considering the English world’s vast misunderstanding of the word.

https://thelogosofagape.wordpress.co...ek-word-study/

The idea that faith in the NT could be understood as a kind of "allegiance" to the god you worship is consistent with the mark of the beast being the ultimate test for faith. A Protestant can go to church every Sunday and tithe and a Catholic can attend mass every week, recite the rosary, do confession etc but when presented with the choice of dying as a martyr or saving their own life to take the mark what will they do? Their choice will depend on the real god they worship.

Luke 17:33
Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

There was probably a similar test during Elijah's time in Israel. Jezebel like Nebuchadnezzar may have created an environment where anyone who did not worship Baal was at risk of being put to death. Only 7,000 out of a nation of hundreds of thousands had never bent their knee to Baal.

1 Kings 19:18
Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

[bearbear]

To bring this topic back to marriage advice, I also recommend OP to read "Till Death Do Us Part?" by Dr. Joseph Webb to understand that marriage is truly for life. If you do marry, God will supernaturally join you to your wife and that bond will exist until either of you dies (1 Cor 7:39, Romans 7:2-3). So if you choose a wife, do so carefully because you may only have one chance in this lifetime and make sure you do it because you truly love her and not out of social obligation because it won't be fair to her otherwise.

Matthew 19:6 (KJV)
"Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."