Jesus Christ = “The tree of Life”, where is that in the Bible???

[Paul Vusik]

As all you know, or at least the people that at one time where a part of TLR, that there is a very high emphasis put on the ideology of “we must choose to eat of the tree of life”, and don’t be like Adam and Eve and choose the wrong thing.

However, unless I’m mistaken, there isn’t a single verse of scripture that equates Jesus Christ to the tree of life, nether calls Him the tree of life. I don’t care about symbolism or typology, nether do I care about some interpretation that says so. As far as I know and doing some studies on the matter, there is only 12 times that the tree of life is mentioned in the Bible, and not one of those referring to Christ!

The reason I’m posting this is to find out if anyone here can or had done some studies about it and has some input.

Just a side note, I’m not interested in any recovery bible verses, or footnotes, or quotes. I have a very strong suspicion where all this comes from, but was hoping to get some feedback first to see if it connects the dots.

Thanks.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

As all you know, or at least the people that at one time where a part of TLR, that there is a very high emphasis put on the ideology of “we must choose to eat of the tree of life”, and don’t be like Adam and Eve and choose the wrong thing.

However, unless I’m mistaken, there isn’t a single verse of scripture that equates Jesus Christ to the tree of life, nether calls Him the tree of life. I don’t care about symbolism or typology, nether do I care about some interpretation that says so. As far as I know and doing some studies on the matter, there is only 12 times that the tree of life is mentioned in the Bible, and not one of those referring to Christ!

The reason I’m posting this is to find out if anyone here can or had done some studies about it and has some input.

Just a side note, I’m not interested in any recovery bible verses, or footnotes, or quotes. I have a very strong suspicion where all this comes from, but was hoping to get some feedback first to see if it connects the dots.

Thanks.

I 100% agree with you here, and I came to the same conclusion after some study too.

Jesus says He's the water of life and He says He's the bread of life. Any instance of Jesus claiming to be the tree of life is conspicuously absent.

I know you don't want the LC quotes, but I'll just say that as far as I know, the way they came up with this was to say "Jesus calls Himself the vine, and the tree of life is said to be on both sides of the river, so the tree of life must be a vine, therefore, Jesus is the tree of life." Pretty bad.

The other slightly stronger connection might be to say "the tree of life granted eternal life, and Jesus is 'the life', therefore, Jesus is our metaphorical tree of life." But again, I see absolutely no reading that forces that conclusion.

What I DO see is that Jesus does not symbolize the tree of life, but is our way BACK to the tree of life. The tree of life was guarded by cherubim and flaming swords so it could not be accessed after Adam's transgression. Jesus' death opens the way for us to have access to it again, which we see in Revelation.

One thing I am curious about is that Jesus was granted by the Father to "have life in Himself". I am unclear whether that is related to the TOL or not...I don't think it is. But since Jesus is our brother/pattern/forerunner, does this mean we also will "have life in ourself" in the same way the Father granted to Jesus? I don't know.

Trapped

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Trapped

One thing I am curious about is that Jesus was granted by the Father to "have life in Himself". I am unclear whether that is related to the TOL or not...I don't think it is. But since Jesus is our brother/pattern/forerunner, does this mean we also will "have life in ourself" in the same way the Father granted to Jesus? I don't know.

Trapped

If I ever experience living water flowing from my innermost being, I will be able to answer that question.

[Zezima]

Genesis 3:22 “…lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever”

John 6:54 “whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life”
John 6:51 “I am the living bread, if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever”

These are the closest, but it’s not a direct statement.

[Paul Vusik]

My point is precisely that, which is that nowhere in the Bible you will find that equation. Jesus was in the world for long enough time to where He had hundreds of opportunities to compare Himself to “the tree of life”. He didn’t, nether did any of the apostles in any of the gospels or the epistles. Did He not know of the tree of life? Absolutely He did! So why would He not say so if He was it? Because He knew it wasn’t so!
I point this out, because these man have built a slew of teachings based on the foundation that doesn’t exist in the Bible. Never mentioned, never associated with it. I want to look at these verses carefully and see exactly what God said in Genesis 3:22-24;
22*And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23*Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24*So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God didn’t say in any of the statements that man would be redeemed from the fall of the sin by eating of “the tree of life”, did He? He didn’t say that if they eat of the tree of life that they would be reconnected back to their original state, did He? No He didn’t! It’s as clear as it gets, He didn’t want man to live forever in the fallen state of sin, and that’s why He put the angel there to guard the tree. Did He had a plan then? Did He know that it was going to happen? Of course He did, and making sure that man would only be redeemed through the completed work of Christ, He had mercy and grace then, by shortening the live span of man to make sure that the work of redemption would be done through His Son!

These man that take this and make the whole Gospel message out of it, and present it to people as a truth are total frauds! They offer people life forever through the tree of life, using the name of Jesus as a cover! It’s not in the Bible for a reason, but it’s offered by other god, that’s promoted and worshiped by the same people that crucified Him in the first place!

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

These man that take this and make the whole Gospel message out of it, and present it to people as a truth are total frauds! They offer people life forever through the tree of life, using the name of Jesus as a cover! It’s not in the Bible for a reason, but it’s offered by other god, that’s promoted and worshiped by the same people that crucified Him in the first place!

Paul, I am trying my hardest to get into this thread of yours. If nothing else, I enjoy reading other people's perspectives.

If I step back and take a big picture view, I care not whether my eternal life is obtained from a "tree","water", or "bread", so long as I get it.

So please help me understand better your main point, and it particular, your last statement that I quoted in boldface.

Yours,

[Raptor]

"Jesus never married", where is that in the Bible???

[aron]

Originally Posted by Raptor

"Jesus never married", where is that in the Bible???

And not only his supposed lack of marriage - where does it say that Jesus never wore red pants on Tuesdays? Just because the Bible doesn't explicitly say something, doesn't mean it's not true.

The problem with our logic, is that it's ours, and it may create imperatives that seem self-evident but may not be to others, then we leave the flock. The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists are good examples. They derive some secondary "truth" which they then try to superimpose on all. I've had several co-workers who, when they find out that I confess Jesus as Lord, tell me that I must keep Sabbath, because it's one of the Ten Commandments. Jesus said, "Keep my commandments". Etc.

With Witness Lee, we saw this phenomenon repeatedly, the odd places where his logic took him. I believe he found no less than 6 distinct and unique centers for the universe, which he gave at various times: the altar, the cross, the tree of life, the throne of God, the human spirit, and human beings themselves, aka "man" -- as in, "Ohhhh, I'm a man, I'm the center of the universe!!" and we'd sing it over and over, and nobody questioned that last year's training had a different center of the universe. "Don't think - drink! Witness Lee did all your thinking for you."

Our logic is unfortunately a handmaiden to our unmet needs, which bubble up from a seething cauldron below our discernment, and seep into our brain, and affect our thinking. We may find our logic taking us all sorts of strange places, if we aren't careful. Then, we get isolated, separated, and lose the Greatest Commandment, to love one's neighbour as themselves. Some derivative "truth" has caught hold of the mind, and clouded its connection to the heart, and taken over.

(And it goes without saying that I'd modify many of my previous posts, some severely, if I could go back and do so. None of us have impeccable logic. Jesus is the Way. Not our thought-trains.)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

"Jesus never married", where is that in the Bible???

And now I wonder if I can ever again give thanks to the Lord on Thanksgiving Day since I have no assurance from the Bible that Jesus ever truly ate turkey.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

My point is precisely that, which is that nowhere in the Bible you will find that equation. Jesus was in the world for long enough time to where He had hundreds of opportunities to compare Himself to “the tree of life”. He didn’t, nether did any of the apostles in any of the gospels or the epistles. Did He not know of the tree of life? Absolutely He did! So why would He not say so if He was it? Because He knew it wasn’t so!

Is there a Bible verse that says Jesus didn’t know he was the tree of life?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Is there a Bible verse that says Jesus didn’t know he was the tree of life?

Didn't He say, "I am the Vine, you are the branches"?

[Paul Vusik]

I’ll try to answer all of the comments that are related to the subject of the thread, and questions regarding what I said.

Originally Posted by Zezima

Is there a Bible verse that says Jesus didn’t know he was the tree of life?

I think that you answered your own question, and as I stated in the comment, if it was necessary or if it was so, Jesus had plenty of opportunities to say so, but nether He nor any other writers of the Bible did so. Jesus existed before the tree of live was ever there, so trying to come up with that equation is outside of the framework of the Bible.

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Paul, I am trying my hardest to get into this thread of yours. If nothing else, I enjoy reading other people's perspectives.

If I step back and take a big picture view, I care not whether my eternal life is obtained from a "tree","water", or "bread", so long as I get it.

So please help me understand better your main point, and it particular, your last statement that I quoted in boldface.

Ok,
Based on that concept of looking at things, at what point do you stop with these outlandish interpretations and so called revelations? And have you look into what other religions offer this concept? You can start with Judaism, which has absolutely nothing to do with the God of the Bible, nor is does it have anything to do with Christ! I wish I can comment more on this topic on this forum, but it is off limits at this time. By the way, the tree of live is one of the main aspects of that ideology.

It’s a very simple concept when it comes to all these knock off, false religions, if you can convince a person on the basic reality that, a duck is a goose, because they look alike, and it’s just your mind playing tricks on you, you need to believe it with your heart, the it’s all over! Then you can introduce things such as, Bible doesn’t matter-ministry does, you are “being saved”(1 Cor1:18) vs “which are saved”, there are multiple steps to your salvation (like the OT temple), you will be gods, and I can’t go on and on. And those harder to digest and believe concepts, are usually introduced later to a person, once they have been brainwashed enough to believe that an X=Y, because they kind of look alike.

Originally Posted by aron

Just because the Bible doesn't explicitly say something, doesn't mean it's not true.

I’ll stick to that what it explicitly says, and let Him be the judge of that.

Originally Posted by aron

Our logic is unfortunately a handmaiden to our unmet needs, which bubble up from a seething cauldron below our discernment, and seep into our brain, and affect our thinking. We may find our logic taking us all sorts of strange places, if we aren't careful. Then, we get isolated, separated, and lose the Greatest Commandment, to love one's neighbour as themselves. Some derivative "truth" has caught hold of the mind, and clouded its connection to the heart, and taken over.

I can’t quite make a determination what you mean by these statements, because what’s quoted above contradicts the prior paragraph. But my comment is this:

Bible clearly teaches us that we need to have a sound mind, to renew your mind, in the Word of a God and by the word of God. At least in my life today, everything that happens, regardless of the experience of it, I test it against the Word of God, and verify it. If it’s there, I pursue the issue and pray for it, if not, it goes straight to the trash can, as if it never existed. I believe in my heart, there is absolutely nothing, that the Holy Spirit would lead me to, that’s it’s ether outside of, or in any shape or form contradicts the written Word! I have been duped and scammed once, l pray that by Gods mercy and Wisdom that He gives to whomever, it won’t happen again.

All these things, that are offered by so called “experience of Christ”, that are expressed in the emotional and even physical ways, when your mind is absent from what’s happening, are totally outside of all Biblical principles and teachings. If God wanted people to be that way, He would have created us as such in the first place!

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Didn't He say, "I am the Vine, you are the branches"?

Yea he did.

I’m pointing out that if you’re going to use the logic that “There are no verses that say that” then you have to apply that logic to your retort as well. “Jesus never said that because he knew he wasn’t” this is a claim that isn’t biblically supported.

Paul claims there’s nowhere in the Bible that says Jesus is the tree of life, then say because he knew. Except, there is no place in the Bible that says he knew.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Yea he did.

I’m pointing out that if you’re going to use the logic that “There are no verses that say that” then you have to apply that logic to your retort as well. “Jesus never said that because he knew he wasn’t” this is a claim that isn’t biblically supported.

Paul claims there’s nowhere in the Bible that says Jesus is the tree of life, then say because he knew. Except, there is no place in the Bible that says he knew.

Zezima,
You are 100% correct! There is no verse in the Bible, that says “He knew, He was not”. You are correct! I was trying to make a point that “He never called Himself that”. I should have used a different word for “knew”, to make a point. I apologize!

Here I’m trying to make a point that one should not add anything to the Bible, and in doing so, made a same mistake.

Got to do more reading over the post, before I post something next time.

[Timotheist]

Still confused…

The fruit of the tree offers eternal life.

Jesus offers eternal life.

Which of these statements is a lie?

Or are there two kinds of eternal life?

Please give a simple man a simple answer.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Still confused…

The fruit of the tree offers eternal life.

Jesus offers eternal life.

Which of these statements is a lie?

Or are there two kinds of eternal life?

Please give a simple man a simple answer.

If you want a simple gospel, then believe that God raised Jesus from the dead on the third day, confess Jesus as Lord and you are forgiven your sins, and have eternal life. The Lord's command is to love one another, visit the widows and orphans in their afflictions, and stay unspotted from the world.

There is no need for theology beyond than that. Just, abide in his love.

Now, to start talking about "life" versus "death" in some comprehensive ontological praxis in the NT, one quickly sees a very, very complex subject. There's the river of water of life, there's the tree of life, there is the first and second death, there are angels who sinned cast to Tartarus in chains, there are demons going from men into hogs and drowning in the sea, there is a "worm that doesn't die", at least in the KJV.

There are multiple quasi-divine characters flitting in and out of the scene - did Moses talk with God, or did he talk with an angel? It says both in the text - so then, which of these statements is a lie? Then, are the four living creatures in Ezekiel & Revelation representative of all aspects of creation, or the four principal directions (time/space), or the "Quadrune God" in some manner? The creatures are "living", right? What does that mean? Isn't everything living? Or only God?

I recommend, keep it simple. If you want the detailed granularity and specificity that Lee promised (sold), you get into absurdity, as logic trains create contradictory positions.

A = B = C = D, then at some point A = D and voila Aron is God the Father and Witness Lee is Lord Changshou! Doesn't make any sense. At some point "this means that" will take you from the simple commands to love, and separate you from the flock.

I bet if we sat down at John's feet, and pestered him with questions about the fourth gospel, many of us would get up confused and walk away in puzzlement. Look how many times the disciples were "amazed beyond measure", or "astonished" or "they did not understand" in the NT, at being with Jesus. Yet they stayed, because they were loved.

Jesus spoke publicly, then explained to his incredulous followers privately (e.g., Mark 4:10-13). Likewise, Jesus' disciples (apostles) wrote publicly, and also explained privately to their disciples. Not all of those private explanations have come across through time. Some can be discerned to some degree, even to a high degree. Other things, if forced into rigid boxes for mental satisfaction, will end up labeled "absurdity".

I repeat: the command is to love. Love brings understanding. Keep it simple. Let the Bible breathe, don't force it into predetermined bins.

Please allow me to repeat an earlier observation: in discussing the tree of life in Rev 22, the RecV footnote said that the gentiles/nations do not have eternal life yet they live forever. Doesn't this statement look absurd? By forcing "life" into a simplistic meaning, shorn of it's inherent nuances and contextualities, Lee made hard, one-size-fits-all conceptual bins, but his ontological praxis led to absurdity. For "life" to fit all his check-marks, then "eternal" and "forever" had to mean two different things, which to my view is nonsense.

And, if you want to watch absurdity, go to YouTube and watch Hank Hanegraaf explain 'energies' and 'essences' and 'persons' to his baffled audience. Is this why Jesus came?

What does S-C-A-M spell?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Please allow me to repeat an earlier observation: in discussing the tree of life in Rev 22, the RecV footnote said that the gentiles/nations do not have eternal life yet they live forever. Doesn't this statement look absurd?

Not at all. Eternal life is the quality of life, not merely the length of life. Is that so hard?

Perhaps your Bible is “simplified” down to a few verses like John 3.16. I’m fine with that. Everyone at a football game should be so reminded. Sadly many ardent fans would be lost if that message also included Luke 10.27.

But we should take the Bible as it’s Author gave it, with its unending nuance and complications. Sure, keep the gospel message simple for the world, but those who demand such “simplicity” from others may fall into the same trap.

In the efforts to reject all things Lee, or Née, or Darby, or whoever, how much scripture must we cut out?

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In the efforts to reject all things Lee, or Née, or Darby, or whoever, how much scripture must we cut out?

The answer is very simple, NOT A SINGLE JOT OR TITTLE! If you eliminate all their fallacies and additions, changes of terminology, meanings of words that they claim is a “further revelation”, they would eliminate themselves and the Word of God would stand on its own!

The whole idea of the recovery bible, was to edit, add, change meaning of words, to fit this man ideology. There were plenty of Bibles that have been available at the time of doing another one, just none of them fit the scam he was trying to sell. It’s also a very lucrative business opportunity, to have a Bible that’s copyrighted, (just FYI, you have to change 10% of the Bible content in order to get a copyright).

Finally, how many messages, books, magazines, trainings, conferences, songs written, HWMR created, on putting A=D concept? How many times you have heard the whole Sunday meeting dedicated to one of these concepts, rather than to pure Gospel? I was in there for 12 years, and not a single Sunday was spent on preaching the pure uncurrupted Gospel! So, I’ll gladly take the simplest form of the Word of God, and eliminate all who prescribe further, deeper experiences and revelations, for the sake of personal and corporate gains!

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Still confused…

The fruit of the tree offers eternal life.

Jesus offers eternal life.

Which of these statements is a lie?

Or are there two kinds of eternal life?

Please give a simple man a simple answer.

The truth of the matter is, that EVERYONE will live forever, for the soul of man never dies! It’s just a matter of whether you will spend that life with the Ethernal God, through the redemptive work of Christ, or be forever separated and be subjected to consequences of rejection Him!

The Tree of life in the garden, NEVER OFFERED ANYONE redemption, it’s only CHRIST that does so!

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by aron

in discussing the tree of life in Rev 22, the RecV footnote said that the gentiles/nations do not have eternal life yet they live forever. Doesn't this statement look absurd?

No, for these two reasons:

1) The leaves are for the healing of the nations. Why will they need to be healed? From what?

2) The tree bears fruit every month for the city dwellers. Why do they need to keep eating? Is not one bite sufficient?

Both of these statements imply that eternal life requires an on-going, sustaining, influence from God, and an act of will on our part to maintain the relationship.

I think it is a fair comparison to look at angels: They have eternal life (I assume), so long as they stay in the grace of God. Those that rebelled will be divested of their life status.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

EVERYONE will live forever, for the soul of man never dies!

Not so sure about that... what is created can certainly be uncreated.

There is always a covenant which has requirements on us.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by aron

Please allow me to repeat an earlier observation: in discussing the tree of life in Rev 22, the RecV footnote said that the gentiles/nations do not have eternal life yet they live forever. Doesn't this statement look absurd?

Not only is that absurd, it’s a total scam! Which ever one of those man wrote that, I hope there is a very special place in hell for them for their deception. Bible is very clear regarding the matter of ethereal live in the New Covenant, therefore I suggest you throw away that junk Bible of yours and get a real one!

There is no more blood lines, no more Jew, no more Greek, no more separation, no more Old Testament/ Old covenant, all that is done and over with! Available for all, and available immediately upon ones total repentance and putting his trust in Jesus Christ! It’s provable with the real Bible, without man infested opinions.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

The answer is very simple, NOT A SINGLE JOT OR TITTLE! If you eliminate all their fallacies and additions, changes of terminology, meanings of words that they claim is a “further revelation”, they would eliminate themselves and the Word of God would stand on its own!

The whole idea of the recovery bible, was to edit, add, change meaning of words, to fit this man ideology. There were plenty of Bibles that have been available at the time of doing another one, just none of them fit the scam he was trying to sell. It’s also a very lucrative business opportunity, to have a Bible that’s copyrighted, (just FYI, you have to change 10% of the Bible content in order to get a copyright).

Finally, how many messages, books, magazines, trainings, conferences, songs written, HWMR created, on putting A=D concept? How many times you have heard the whole Sunday meeting dedicated to one of these concepts, rather than to pure Gospel? I was in there for 12 years, and not a single Sunday was spent on preaching the pure uncurrupted Gospel! So, I’ll gladly take the simplest form of the Word of God, and eliminate all who prescribe further, deeper experiences and revelations, for the sake of personal and corporate gains!

Can't agree more.


With all due respect, brother Lee had said lots of theological nonsense, mostly his imaginary assumptions and inferences, such as "Jesus is the tree of life."
If you noticed those annotations in his recovery versions, the part he adopted from other commentaries didn't arouse much attention, yet the part from himself did.
The recent morning revival is "Crystallization-Study of 1 and 2 Samuel," and you probably recall the term "the acting God." This term is even worse than the tree of life stuff. I raised my voice regarding this term, saying, "Do we need those arguing terms if we want other churches to accept us?" And the response was, "The truth won't compromise. " I asked further, "So what brother Lee said was the truth?" the response, "Well, he had the vision and revealed the truth; if God didn't agree with brother Lee, He wouldn't let him speak and write those words."
Sorry to say things off-topic. My point is don't take his "theological" inventions too seriously, and he probably knows he was wrong now.

----------------------------------------
P.S. The tree of life is never the vine. Spiritually, we maybe can refer to the tree of life to Jesus Christ as eternal life; but doctrinally, we have to be careful not to make the Bible say something it hasn't.
My understanding is the term "eternal life" mentioned in the Bible refers to the "physical body-the flesh."
I remembered a pastor who said, "A man's soul won't die even if he is unsaved. His soul will live forever, but the problem is where the soul going to stay forever."

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Not so sure about that... what is created can certainly be uncreated.

There is always a covenant which has requirements on us.

1. Well, if someone doesn’t believe in heaven and hell, then sure.

2. And there are for sure requirements for each and every believer in the Word of God, you won’t get an argument from me about that.

Just a side note, which I failed to include in my previous post:
Calling on the name 3 times, doesn’t get you ethereal life. Nether does raising your hand or writing a card for that matter.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Can't agree more.

----------------------------------------
P.S. The tree of life is never the vine. Spiritually, we maybe can refer to the tree of life to Jesus Christ as eternal life; but doctrinally, we have to be careful not to make the Bible say something it hasn't.
My understanding is the term "eternal life" mentioned in the Bible refers to the "physical body-the flesh."
I remembered a pastor who said, "A man's soul won't die even if he is unsaved. His soul will live forever, but the problem is where the soul going to stay forever."

Now I get it. The tree of life was an apple tree, not a vine. That’s how we got the “Adam’s apple.” Got it.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Now I get it. The tree of life was an apple tree, not a vine. That’s how we got the “Adam’s apple.” Got it.

I don't understand how to "get“ an apple tree from " tree of life is never the vine?" If not A, so it's B? Then how about C or D?

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Now I get it. The tree of life was an apple tree, not a vine. That’s how we got the “Adam’s apple.” Got it.

This is what’s known as, for example in the boxing world as , “I can no longer stay in the fight, I got nothing here to get this guy out, so I hit below the belt, maybe that will help me in to extend this match”

Don’t bite on these outlandish statements, and try to prove their existence. When you can’t stay with the subject matter, just give up and say I got nothing! At least it would mean that you man enough to admit something, rather than a typical recovery man that is always looking for someone to blame for having no answers, or just looking to change the subject because it’s no longer a matter of proving something exist, but defending the position of someone that they have been indoctrinated with.

Sorry for being straight forward, but sometimes I noticed that people just can’t defend what they believe by staying on the subject matter, they ether try to change the subject or make fun of something that’s obviously out of the discussion at the time.

The subject here is very simple, did Bible ever equate Jesus to the “Tree of life”? No it didn’t! Not once! So if you can’t admit the factual and empirical evidence of that, without inserting your typology and other private interpretation, it would be better to just give up on trying to prove a point that doesn’t exist!

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

This is what’s known as, for example in the boxing world as , “I can no longer stay in the fight, I got nothing here to get this guy out, so I hit below the belt, maybe that will help me in to extend this match”

You nailed that one.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

This is what’s known as, for example in the boxing world as , “I can no longer stay in the fight, I got nothing here to get this guy out, so I hit below the belt, maybe that will help me in to extend this match”

Don’t bite on these outlandish statements, and try to prove their existence. When you can’t stay with the subject matter, just give up and say I got nothing! At least it would mean that you man enough to admit something, rather than a typical recovery man that is always looking for someone to blame for having no answers, or just looking to change the subject because it’s no longer a matter of proving something exist, but defending the position of someone that they have been indoctrinated with.

Sorry for being straight forward, but sometimes I noticed that people just can’t defend what they believe by staying on the subject matter, they ether try to change the subject or make fun of something that’s obviously out of the discussion at the time.

The subject here is very simple, did Bible ever equate Jesus to the “Tree of life”? No it didn’t! Not once! So if you can’t admit the factual and empirical evidence of that, without inserting your typology and other private interpretation, it would be better to just give up on trying to prove a point that doesn’t exist!

It seems you went out of your way to miss the irony, so I will “tap out.”

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It seems you went out of your way to miss the irony, so I will “tap out.”

Ohio,
I just want to make something clear, and please understand me, I have NOTHING personal or in any shape or form trying to discredit you.

I didn’t go out of the way, or missed the “irony”. The point of this thread is exactly that, to point out that irony that is presented and refute it! I have no issues regarding admitting my mistake or failure, to clearly state my position based on the written Word of God.

As I have said here on the forum before, when someone takes things out of context, adds their spin to everything to prove a point that they are trying to achieve in the end, that’s when that irony has to be called out and questioned. In my personal opinion, if you want to compare Jesus to the tree of life for yourself (since there are similarities), I can live with that, HOWEVER, when you take the next step and forget that you started with Jesus, and you restart with the tree of life and build a castle on it, I will refute it and make issue with it.

I have read quite a bit on this subject, and the pandora box that opens when you go there is very much up to anyone’s imagination. Here is the example: If the Jesus was present in the garden of eden as the “tree”, does that mean that at one time you or I could have also been a tree? Or could be in the future? That’s the kind of stupidity that people build whole slew of religions on, because it’s the irony that got them to take the first step into the pandora box of human imagination, rather than sticking with what’s written and be ok with it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Ohio,
I just want to make something clear, and please understand me, I have NOTHING personal or in any shape or form trying to discredit you.

I didn’t go out of the way, or missed the “irony”. The point of this thread is exactly that, to point out that irony that is presented and refute it! I have no issues regarding admitting my mistake or failure, to clearly state my position based on the written Word of God.

As I have said here on the forum before, when someone takes things out of context, adds their spin to everything to prove a point that they are trying to achieve in the end, that’s when that irony has to be called out and questioned. In my personal opinion, if you want to compare Jesus to the tree of life for yourself (since there are similarities), I can live with that, HOWEVER, when you take the next step and forget that you started with Jesus, and you restart with the tree of life and build a castle on it, I will refute it and make issue with it.

I have read quite a bit on this subject, and the pandora box that opens when you go there is very much up to anyone’s imagination. Here is the example: If the Jesus was present in the garden of eden as the “tree”, does that mean that at one time you or I could have also been a tree? Or could be in the future? That’s the kind of stupidity that people build whole slew of religions on, because it’s the irony that got them to take the first step into the pandora box of human imagination, rather than sticking with what’s written and be ok with it.

This is way too extreme. Here I am not supporting any ministry but the word of God. Jesus Himself said “I am the vine.” But you see this as dangerous in some strange way saying, “does that mean that at one time you or I could have also been a tree?”

Huh? Jesus also said, “I am the door of the sheep.” Does this also “mean that at one time you or I could have also been a door?” These are metaphors. The Bible often speaks in metaphors. Jesus spoke this way, as did the apostles.

Hate to argue this point, but you are “crying wolf” about cuddly lap dogs. And that’s a metaphor too.

[Trapped]

One of the issues with claiming Jesus is the tree of life is that in doing so, it ignores the larger context that the tree of life is in.

For example, on a pro-LC blog, agodman.com, they say:

"God put man in front of the tree of life to show him that this should be his source, his everything; the tree of life is God Himself in the form of food for man to take in."

So first of all we actually have an all-mighty, infinite, Creator God who speaks things into being who.......became actual food that goes through our digestive system? Utterly ridiculous.

Here is another quote from the blog:

"The Bible clearly shows us that God doesn’t want us to do the right thing and not do the wrong thing – God wants us to eat Him as the tree of life. The principle of the Christian life is not doing the right things vs not doing the wrong things but taking care of the tree of life. The tree of life is meant to be the center of our Christian life and church life. Besides the tree of life there’s another tree – the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which brings in death. Many people think that since the Bible is “the good Book”, it teaches us about good and evil, encouraging us to do good and not do evil. But the truth is that the Bible doesn’t teach us to do good, and the Bible doesn’t teach us to do evil either. The Bible teaches us God as life to man. The principle of good and evil is not Christianity – it is something pagan, foreign from God."

I think anyone with a brain can see the problems here. They think that eating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was what killed Adam and Eve, but as usual they completely skip over the crucial information about the tree of life - that losing access to it was punishment for Adam and Eve's sin, and that's where death came in.

In so doing, they lambast anything related to knowledge or good (and evil, but that part's accurate), and all of a sudden, the Jesus who is the tree of life is somehow contrary to knowledge or good.....contrary to using your own mind and contrary to discerning right from wrong. Discerning good from evil - which the Bible clearly says is an attribute of God - is somehow "pagan" and "foreign from God".

That's the fuller picture in the LC landscape that makes me care about whether calling Jesus the tree of life is biblical or not.

Lastly, somehow in Witness Lee's mind, everything is simply everything. The Son actually is the Father, we are God, and now the tree of life is Jesus. He's created a world without distinctions. And if Jesus is the tree of life, the importance of the fact that God punished Adam and Eve with death for their sin has been swallowed up in the metaphor.

It's like stealing a $10 bill from your dad's wallet, and being punished by not being allowed to eat the chocolate cake after dinner that your mom just made. Your sibling takes the blame for you and you go around telling everyone that "my brother is my cake".

It gets old. And it just creates a world of confusion where everything represents everything else and it becomes ripe for all the abusive tactics the local church uses.

Trapped

[Zezima]

A further look at Genesis, God never told man to eat of the tree of life, in fact he told man they could eat of any tree except the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,”
**Genesis‬ *2:16‬ *ESV‬‬


So if Jesus is the tree of life, who are the other trees?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Zezima

A further look at Genesis, God never told man to eat of the tree of life, in fact he told man they could eat of any tree except the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,”
**Genesis‬ *2:16‬ *ESV‬‬

So if Jesus is the tree of life, who are the other trees?

Exactly. He never told man to eat the tree of life, and He certainly never told them to "ONLY eat the tree of life". He told them the opposite - to eat of any tree (and I've seen in numerous places that the estimates are hundreds or thousands of trees), EXCEPT for one. This is a totally different thing from "you have to eat the TOL only". They could eat the tree of life just as they could eat any of thousands of other trees.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Here is another quote from the blog:

"The Bible clearly shows us that God doesn’t want us to do the right thing and not do the wrong thing – God wants us to eat Him as the tree of life. The principle of the Christian life is not doing the right things vs not doing the wrong things but taking care of the tree of life. The tree of life is meant to be the center of our Christian life and church life. Besides the tree of life there’s another tree – the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which brings in death. Many people think that since the Bible is “the good Book”, it teaches us about good and evil, encouraging us to do good and not do evil. But the truth is that the Bible doesn’t teach us to do good, and the Bible doesn’t teach us to do evil either. The Bible teaches us God as life to man. The principle of good and evil is not Christianity – it is something pagan, foreign from God."


It gets old. And it just creates a world of confusion where everything represents everything else and it becomes ripe for all the abusive tactics the local church uses.

Trapped

Trapped,
I read that quote long time ago, but couldn’t find it to post it here. If this is not what I tried to point out in this whole thread by A=D concept, then I don’t know how else to explain it! It’s total and utter junk from a deranged individual, who was probably exposed too much to that “shekhina glory of his” and his mind was not present at the time of writing that quote. It goes against everything that Jesus and His apostles taught in the Bible, so thanks for finding it and posting it here. It should be a quote on the front page here, so people can see this scam for what it is.

[Bible-believer]

“The tree of life” first appears in Gen.2:9. It is forbidden to Adam when he is thrust out of Eden
(Gen. 3:24), it is typified in Proverbs 11:30 by the heavenly wisdom, and it appears in Revelation
22:14 as a reward for good works to people.
Jesus said, “I am the true vine,” indeed, but it’s not necessarily equating the vine with the tree of life.
Rom.11:14-24, the good olive tree refers to Jesus Christ, “24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?”
Zech. 4:10-14, “12And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

We are the wild olive tree, and the good one is Jesus Christ. Then can I say the tree of life is an olive tree?

Gen 2:9
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life （1st time） also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life (2nd time), and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life (3rd).
Pro 3:18
She (Wisdom) is a tree of life ( 4th)to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.
Pro 11:30
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life(5th ); and he that winneth souls is wise.
Pro 13:12
Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life (6th) .
Pro 15:4
A wholesome tongue is a tree of life (7th): but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.
Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life (8th), which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life(9th), which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life(10th), and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[Paul Vusik]

Here is another quote for you:

“We were made in the image of God with the human life. Our life is much higher that the animal's. But we still need something. We are higher, but we are not the highest. There is the potential that we can possess life on the highest plane. This highest life is presented to us as food. It is shown as the tree of life, which is good for food. Although it is the life on the highest plane, it is not far from us.

Many times I have tried to discover how high the tree of life was. Of course, the Bible does not tell us. But it could not be so high that we could not reach it. He says that He is the bread of life (John 6:35). There is a type in the Old Testament called manna (Exo. 16:15). Manna was just a small round thing, yet we know from John 6 that manna is a picture of Jesus as the bread of life. The tree of life must be very available and convenient so that we can take this life in as our food.

Yet there is the possibility that man will take the tree of knowledge instead of the tree of life. The religious concept is of the tree of knowledge, thinking that we must know all the doctrines and teachings. But the divine concept is Eating the tree of life. These two concepts were in the beginning in Genesis 2. The Bible is consistent. In the beginning there is the tree of life, and in the last book the tree of life is still there. In Revelation it has been even more developed. Man fell, yet we have the blood to wash our robes that we may come again to the tree of life: “Blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter by the gates into the city” (22:14). Hallelujah! Redemption brings us back to eating. Fallen Christianity keeps us away from eating. This is why we need the Lord's recovery. It brings us back to eating again, back to the beginning. We can come to the highest plane by Eating the tree of life and taking the highest life into us.”
https://www.ministrybooks.org/Search...?id=2857C8C2E0

Two things as always present here: take a shot at everyone in Christianity, and make sure that all the mindless people are keeping their heads down and eating.

Some people who eats this, might think that the “plane” that he speaks of is going to take off one day, since it’s confusing as a heck. Unfortunately, this plane has no engine or a pilot to get it of the ground!

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Yet there is the possibility that man will take the tree of knowledge instead of the tree of life. The religious concept is of the tree of knowledge, thinking that we must know all the doctrines and teachings. But the divine concept is Eating the tree of life.

He’s presenting a doctrine while at the same time slamming the idea of doctrine. So, what is doctrine? Anything opposite of the LR teachings?

Interesting quote Paul, this has no biblical basis. Thanks for sharing

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Zezima

He’s presenting a doctrine while at the same time slamming the idea of doctrine. So, what is doctrine? Anything opposite of the LR teachings?

Interesting quote Paul, this has no biblical basis. Thanks for sharing

Zezima,

Remember “Doctrine” is a curse word in TLR, you have to have the correct terminology when you speak of them, it’s called “recovered truths”. So he is not presenting anything but truth straight from the horses mouth. Everything else outside of that is knows as “ knowledge of good and evil “.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

The truth of the matter is, that EVERYONE will live forever, for the soul of man never dies! It’s just a matter of whether you will spend that life with the Ethernal God, through the redemptive work of Christ, or be forever separated and be subjected to consequences of rejection Him!

The Tree of life in the garden, NEVER OFFERED ANYONE redemption, it’s only CHRIST that does so!

Indeed.
The tree of life is a life-giving tree created to enhance and perpetually sustain the physical life of humanity but not redemption.

[Paul Vusik]

The last two quotes that are posted here, which comes from LSM, or their minions, directly contradict the Written Word of God! I will add couple of places in the Bible where it’s as clear as it can get, how we were saved, by what we where saved, and for what we were saved! And not in a single verse do I see a word “eating” or “the tree of live” in there!



Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Then also,

Titus 2:10-14
King James Version
10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(*highlighted for emphasis by me.)

1. Notice that Paul, uses the word “saved” as in the past tense, meaning upon your salvation and regeneration, you have now full assurance of eternal life.

2. “God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”
Want to emphasize “all men”, because Christ came to bring salvation and eternal life to everyone! No matter who you are and where you are! Anyone who promotes a multi step salvation or attainment of eternal live by some kind of “eating”, is a total scammer!

3. “...denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”
So much for Bible not saying that the “principles of good and evil is not a main character of Biblical Christianity”

These man worship and selling their pagan God, under the description of the real One! And one of the tricks to hide that, is to accuse “everyone of doing so”, so people don’t look there, is very common in all of these knock off scams!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

The last two quotes that are posted here, which comes from LSM, or their minions, directly contradict the Written Word of God! I will add couple of places in the Bible where it’s as clear as it can get, how we were saved, by what we where saved, and for what we were saved! And not in a single verse do I see a word “eating” or “the tree of live” in there!

What do you do about John 6.48-58 ???

I see lots of "eating" there.

What's up with the Gospel of John?

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What do you do about John 6.48-58 ???

I see lots of "eating" there.

What's up with the Gospel of John?

Ohio,

I will tell you that I’m aware of the passage in John 6:48-58. I’m aware of the statements that are made there by Jesus. I’m also aware that John 6, has 71 verses, and that if we read the whole chapter, or at least from where this whole discourse starts, and at what point “eating” is introduced into the discussion, and what happens after the verses 48-58, Bible has a very good tendency of explaining itself.

John 6 begins with “Five loaves and two fishes”, and how Jesus fed 5000 men, and had 12 baskets of bread left. Then Jesus walks on the sea to the other side , to Capernaum. And here is where the first time Jesus brings up the issue of eating:
V26
“…ye seek me not because you saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loves, and where filled”

We can see out of that statement, that the people that were seeking Jesus not because of Him, but because they where hungry again!

V27
“Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat that endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for Him hath God the Father sealed”

This is the first time in this chapter, where Jesus states that He will be given by the Father, as a sacrifice for atonement for the sins of man!

V28”Then said they unto Him, what shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

And Jesus Himself, answers the question of what he means by eating, and says,

V29 “Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God, 'THAT YE BELIEVE ON HIM WHOM HE HATH SEND.”

As always, they didn’t like the answer and wanted a sign, V30, and then again they bring up eating in V31, but Jesus being the Master of using their words against them, said “the bread that Moses gave you was not from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread of heaven”

V35 Jesus states clearly “He that cometh to me SHALL NEVER HUNGER; AND HE THAT BELIVETH ON ME SHALL NEVER THIRST”

That statement alone should have completely ended that discussion there, but these man wanted nothing to do with Jesus, they were so stuck on their concepts of eating that Jesus was just an afterthought, for He said “…that ye also have seen me, and BELIEVE NOT! (V36)

In the next 4 verses, Jesus tells them again who He is, and where He comes from, and that”…and him that cometh to Me, I will not cast out”, “BELIEVETH ON HIM, MAY HAVE EVERALSTIN LIFE”, it was still not enough to convince these Jews to understand what Jesus is trying to tell them, that eating true bread, meaning by BELIEVING INTO HIM, that’s the only way to everlasting life, and the way to the Father.

What do these man do then, since they could not prove and say anything against what He was trying to convey to them? They go for the low blow, trying to directly make Him just a mere man “ is not the Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?” Take a straight shot for His Deity! Jesus didn’t bite, He just kept staying on the subject, “…he that beliveth on me hath everlasting life” (v47), and goes on to repeat the same statements He made earlier, but just ads a bit of a caveat for those who question Him as God, by basically telling them to eat his flesh and drink his blood knowing exactly that its a forbidden thing. Thats how you end arguments! Even His disciples questioned the statements, and He cleared it up for them in (V63), “ ..that is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing”, He said that His flesh will be given up for the life of the world (v51), and just as He lived by the Father, so he that eateth me, (or BELIVETH unto ME), even He shall live by me (v57).

And finally, Jesus asks His disciples if they got the moral of the whole discourse, after all the fakes had left, “will you also go away?”(v67). But Peter summed up the whole thing in the verses 68 and 69, “…Thou has the words of eternal life,” and “WE BELIVE AND ARE SURE THAT THOU ART CHRIST THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD!”

In conclusion,
According to Jesus Himself, EATING=BELIEVING!!!
According to the understanding of the apostles, EATING=BELIEVING!!!
And I will even take it a step further, and state that according to Jesus, in (v35), ANYONE THAT COMETH TO ME, (OR BELIVE), SHALL NEVER HUNGER!!! Therefore, if someone is still concerns himself with eating, and hunger, maybe just maybe, THEY NEVER BELIEVED INTO THE REAL JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF A LIVING GOD?????

If we just stay with the Word of God, don't take it out of context to prove some ideology, we would be way better off!!!

[Ohio]

If EATING=BELIEVING, then why does the Bible use both words?

Paul, you are inserting your opinions into Scripture. Obviously this “game” can then be applied indiscriminately to many other words in the Bible. Like with “the work of God is to believe in the One He sent.” (John 6.29). Can we then remove all “work” from the Bible, and replace it with “believing”?

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

V35 Jesus states clearly “He that cometh to me SHALL NEVER HUNGER; AND HE THAT BELIVETH ON ME SHALL NEVER THIRST”

That statement alone should have completely ended that discussion there

Except that when I read this verse, I take it in a different way.

“You will never be hungry or thirsty again BECAUSE you are eating and drinking Me.”

I find that meaning to be more in alignment with John’s gospel.

Another point kicking off from this verse:

"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." (Mat*5:6*NAU)

My point being that Christ does more than must "redeem", He also sanctifies. I see the imagery of eating Jesus on a regular basis is an allegory for sanctification and not redemption.

So while you are correct in pointing out that the Tree of Life was not about redemption, Jesus accomplished much more than being a one-time sacrifice for our sins.

Manna was about sanctification, not redemption. The Tree of Life is about the maintenance of holiness, not redemption.

As a wise lyricist once wrote:

"Let us eat Jesus every day..."

[Paul Vusik]

Obviously I can and won’t even try to change your mind regarding the “Gospel of Eating”, so I stand where I stand, and Bible stands where it stand! Unlike the TLR, and all of their minions, I do no believe that the Gospel according to John, was written to insert some other, different gospel than Christ presented. For John himself say so, “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” John 20:31.

The whole gospel of John, is written to prove, that Jesus is Christ, Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God, to prove that He was God from the eternity, with no beginning! It’s not about eating, it’s not about God dispensing himself into men, it’s not about transfusion of some matter, it’s about believing unto Him, and being born again from Him!

I for one, believe that just like the process of the fall, which actually did include eating of something, and only doing so ONCE, which was enough to be separated from God, SO is the process of regeneration, by which eating of Christ ONCE, will bring forth New Creation, satisfy the hunger and thirst! Upon that moment, the process of sanctification starts, in which in us to bring that life that we have eaten off, to do its work. He nourishes and leads us through the Holy Spirit, and the Word of God, just as He was nourished and lead by the Father. (John 6:57). There are obvious fruits of that event that occur in a person,

When people take this concept out of context and create completely different gospels, that eating is some kind of exercise, that’s when things go off tracks. But I completely understand why they love that concept: IT SELLS! The reason that they don’t preach that you will not be hungry anymore, or thirsty, because just as the Jews in the time of Jesus were threatened by people who would be independent of their invented doctrines, continuous updates to their man invented systems, keeping people occupied with more and more of their so called “truths” at that time, threatening their membership numbers in synagogues, attendance and adhering of Sabbath related activities, that’s why Jesus was their number one threat!!!

So is today, if someone will preach this type of Jesus, that offers no more hunger and thirst (John 6:35), offers salvation to the the soul (1 Pet 1:9), offers full rest for your souls (Mat 11:28-29), offers that you already have been saved (1 Cor 1:18), to stand fast in the liberty (Gal 5:1), and that we now are the children of God, and the Abraham’s seed (Rom 9:6-8 and 9:26), YOU WOULD BE THE MOST HATED, TREATH TO THE SYSTEM INDIVIDUAL ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH! For that kind of a Gospel, He was killed! This Gospel doesn’t sell, you can’t copyright it, you can’t duplicate it, you can’t fake it! You ether love it, or you hate it, there is nothing in between!

If more people come to this realization, and belief this Gospel that Christ Himself was preached, all these ministries, all these so called recovered truths, carrier oriented “hirelings”, plague dispensaries like LSM, would seize to exist. All man who suppress the truth, and stand in the way, would be exposed for who they truly are, just a self righteous white washed tombs!

I will stand ON THESE PRINCIPLES,
-”I’m not a child of the bondwoman, but of the free”! (GAL 5:1).
- I’m not Hungry, nor am I thirsty! (JOHN 6:35)
- I thank God for restoring and saving of my soul! (1PET 1:9, PS 23)
- I thank God that I am His child, and a seed according to the promise! (ROM 4:16-18).
- that I'M a partaker of His promise in Christ by the Gospel (Eph 3:6)
- I'm confident that He that begun a good work in me, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ!(Phil 1:6).
- He is my true Shepard, and I shall not want! (PS 23)
- For by faith, I look for the city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God! (Her 11:10)

Addressing the issue of sanctification, again, our sanctification is not a matter of eating, is about allowing that which we have already ate, permeate and become part of us! Allowing God, through the work of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God, expose all sin in ourselves, deal with it according to the power given to us, putt off all principles of the old man, and let the fruits of the life that has been imparted to us, show up in the form of the fruits of the spirit in our daily walk with Him!

[Timotheist]

Talk about a gospel that sells! Yours does.

Where is judgement in your gospel? You make it sound like we are exempt.

I appreciate you taking the time to deLEEte yourself from bad teachings, but your message is too simplistic, only supported by select passages.

Salvation is not a binary outcome, simply between believers and unbelievers.

Sanctification results in different outcomes, and we are not assured the same result.

“Eating” is an appropriate analogy for sanctification, because it takes action on our part to further the sanctification process.

That is the truth, and that does not sell well.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Obviously I can and won’t even try to change your mind regarding the “Gospel of Eating”, so I stand where I stand, and Bible stands where it stand! Unlike the TLR, and all of their minions, I do no believe that the Gospel according to John, was written to insert some other, different gospel than Christ presented.

It's well nigh impossible to discuss the Bible with those whose TLR hatred so blinds them to the words of scripture. Unfortunately this is not the first time I have hit this brick wall.

[Zezima]

There’s a lot of verses that talk about eating…

Paul, don’t let your hatred for the LR cloud your judgement. While some of their teachings are wrong, they had some right ones.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Talk about a gospel that sells! Yours does.

Where is judgement in your gospel? You make it sound like we are exempt.

I appreciate you taking the time to deLEEte yourself from bad teachings, but your message is too simplistic, only supported by select passages.

Salvation is not a binary outcome, simply between believers and unbelievers.

Sanctification results in different outcomes, and we are not assured the same result.

“Eating” is an appropriate analogy for sanctification, because it takes action on our part to further the sanctification process.

That is the truth, and that does not sell well.

Could you please point me to the scriptures that are missing, as you said in your “selected passages” comment.

Also, I never said that there is inactive process of sanctification, it’s actually very active and very involved.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's well nigh impossible to discuss the Bible with those whose TLR hatred so blinds them to the words of scripture. Unfortunately this is not the first time I have hit this brick wall.

Ohio,

One thing that you are correct on is that I do despise 99% of teachings of TLR. I see results of them every day, and seen it since 2008. I’m not one of those people who thinks that I should salvage something out of it, so I will not be apologizing for destroying every one of their man made concepts, nor for stating the Biblical truths against it!

I’m a building contractor by trade, so as I look at it things in life, I don’t care what you build and how it looks like on the outside, if the foundation is wrong, no matter what’s built on that, in most cases it won’t stand. I might be a very small drop in the bucket to expose it, so others don’t get screwed like I did, so if that offends someone, let it be so!
There is not a day that goes by that I’m not thankful to the Lord for getting me out of there, especially when I see people around me that I still love, being destroyed!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Ohio,

One thing that you are correct on is that I do despise 99% of teachings of TLR. I see results of them every day, and seen it since 2008. I’m not one of those people who thinks that I should salvage something out of it, so I will not be apologizing for destroying every one of their man made concepts, nor for stating the Biblical truths against it!

I’m a building contractor by trade, so as I look at it things in life, I don’t care what you build and how it looks like on the outside, if the foundation is wrong, no matter what’s built on that, in most cases it won’t stand. I might be a very small drop in the bucket to expose it, so others don’t get screwed like I did, so if that offends someone, let it be so!
There is not a day that goes by that I’m not thankful to the Lord for getting me out of there, especially when I see people around me that I still love, being destroyed!

Paul, I’m an engineer and life-long remodeler so I understand the analogy, but I’ve seen dozens, hundreds of former LCers throw out sound Biblical teachings, some even the Bible itself, and their own faith, just to purge out every last vestige of their past life in the LC. Don’t destroy the good with the bad. It will help neither you nor your loved ones.

I would suggest you choose your battles carefully. Timotheist has wisely suggested that “eating” Jesus and His word are part of our sanctification. I referred you to sections in John’s Gospel. It’s really not helpful to oppose those segments of scripture common to all believers, even when their understanding differs from your own. This is similar to Apostle Paul’s principles in Romans 14 about celebrating days or dietary preferences.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Could you please point me to the scriptures that are missing, as you said in your “selected passages” comment.

Also, I never said that there is inactive process of sanctification, it’s actually very active and very involved.

How about you answer my question first. Where does judgement fit in your belief system? Are the redeemed exempt? Explain how the soul of man lives forever, and how everyone will be saved.

And you also did not address my question in post 6. I still cannot make sense out of what looks like an anti-Semitic statement.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Could you please point me to the scriptures that are missing, as you said in your “selected passages” comment.

Also, I never said that there is inactive process of sanctification, it’s actually very active and very involved.

I could better answer you if you would answer my prior questions first. Where does judgement fit in your belief system? Are the redeemed exempt? Explain how the soul of man lives forever, and how everyone will be saved.

And you also did not address my question in post 6. I still cannot make sense out of what looks like an anti-Semitic statement.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I could better answer you if you would answer my prior questions first. Where does judgement fit in your belief system? Are the redeemed exempt? Explain how the soul of man lives forever, and how everyone will be saved.

And you also did not address my question in post 6. I still cannot make sense out of what looks like an anti-Semitic statement.

Ok,
I’ll go one by one,

1. I will state on the subject of judgment the following:
- Rom 3:9-20 clearly states that we all have sinned, there none righteous, not one! Also, Rom 9:22, “...for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God!
My message to the unbeliever is very straight forward, just based on those two passages stated above. The Bible has plenty of scriptures to address the sinful nature of man, and as Paul stated in Acts 17:30, that God commandeth everyone to repent, and He will judge the world on the appointed day in righteousness! If I’m willing to fully repent of my sin, understand that by grace alone I have been saved, there is nothing in me that wanted God or even can do a smallest of things for my salvation. God by His Mercy and Grace and the work of the Holy Spirit, is able to quicken even the most deplorable of man, give him a totally new life, give a new heart, and be called a child of a living God. So if that happens in a person’s life, the list of things that I had in my previous message applies to everyone who believes and recognizes their true condition.

2. I’m not understanding what you mean “exempted”, from what?
Please clarify.

I believe that a born again believer in Christ, has a lot of responsibilities. Paul in almost all of his writings, and even Jesus stated that being a believer you are the light and salt of the world. About dealing with sin in your life, about running the race, about examining yourself if you are still in the truth, about not compromising with the world. So, I’m not sure about exemptions and from what.

3. I never stated anywhere that everyone will be SAVED, therefore your assumption here is incorrect. What I said is that everyone will live forever, if I can call being in hell for eternity is some sort of life. Everyone will stand before God and give an account, and there are only two places that exist, heaven and hell. Everyone will be in one or the other!

4. Regarding you comment in post 6,
There are things that I cannot talk about or address on this forum regarding that subject, I’ll just state this, the people that follow Judaism, in all forms and sizes, do not worship the God of the Bible or have anything to do with the a God of the Bible.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul, I’m an engineer and life-long remodeler so I understand the analogy, but I’ve seen dozens, hundreds of former LCers throw out sound Biblical teachings, some even the Bible itself, and their own faith, just to purge out every last vestige of their past life in the LC. Don’t destroy the good with the bad. It will help neither you nor your loved ones.

I would suggest you choose your battles carefully. Timotheist has wisely suggested that “eating” Jesus and His word are part of our sanctification. I referred you to sections in John’s Gospel. It’s really not helpful to oppose those segments of scripture common to all believers, even when their understanding differs from your own. This is similar to Apostle Paul’s principles in Romans 14 about celebrating days or dietary preferences.

I understand that point of view to some extent. I just can’t support it!
Paul said in Galatians 5:9 (King James Version), “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.” So trying to pick pieces out, that have been contaminated even by the smallest of deviations is impossible!

I love the people, but will not, and cannot be around the teachings at all!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

, I’ll just state this, the people that follow Judaism, in all forms and sizes, do not worship the God of the Bible or have anything to do with the a God of the Bible.

I don't go along with this.

There are many Messianic Jews who have received Jesus as their Savior and still celebrate Judaism with many of its regulations and celebrations.

There are also many who have devoted their lives to worship God according to the Torah, the Law given by Moses.

Paul, only God knows the heart of man, and these wholesale judgments help neither you nor anyone else.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't go along with this.

There are many Messianic Jews who have received Jesus as their Savior and still celebrate Judaism with many of its regulations and celebrations.

There are also many who have devoted their lives to worship God according to the Torah, the Law given by Moses.

Paul, only God knows the heart of man, and these wholesale judgments help neither you nor anyone else.

We can agree to disagree on that one, and just leave it there.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Ok,
I’ll go one by one,

1. I will state on the subject of judgment the following:
- Rom 3:9-20 clearly states that we all have sinned, there none righteous, not one! Also, Rom 9:22, “...for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God!
My message to the unbeliever is very straight forward, just based on those two passages stated above. The Bible has plenty of scriptures to address the sinful nature of man, and as Paul stated in Acts 17:30, that God commandeth everyone to repent, and He will judge the world on the appointed day in righteousness! If I’m willing to fully repent of my sin, understand that by grace alone I have been saved, there is nothing in me that wanted God or even can do a smallest of things for my salvation. God by His Mercy and Grace and the work of the Holy Spirit, is able to quicken even the most deplorable of man, give him a totally new life, give a new heart, and be called a child of a living God. So if that happens in a person’s life, the list of things that I had in my previous message applies to everyone who believes and recognizes their true condition.

2. I’m not understanding what you mean “exempted”, from what?
Please clarify.

I believe that a born again believer in Christ, has a lot of responsibilities. Paul in almost all of his writings, and even Jesus stated that being a believer you are the light and salt of the world. About dealing with sin in your life, about running the race, about examining yourself if you are still in the truth, about not compromising with the world. So, I’m not sure about exemptions and from what.

I am asking to determine where you are on the topic of "judgement for the believer". There is a pretty wide spectrum of opinions on this subject, ranging from "there is no judgement for the believer" (i.e. exemption) all the way to "it is possible for a 'slacker' to be thrown into Gehenna along with the unbelievers.

Your responses so far indicate you are in the left end of the spectrum, essentially believing that judgement is solely for the unbeliever, and has nothing to do with one's level of sanctification. I think this view is "far too left".

In the context of those who left the LR, I have seen those who deLEEted his teachings of Sheol followed by resurrection and judgement, and have adopted a more mainstream view of heaven or hell, with the believers expecting to ascend immediately to heaven upon death. I think this view is also "too far left". Despite Lee's many flaws, I ultimately decided that he was more correct in this area.

Just wanting to get to know you better,

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Despite Lee's many flaws, I ultimately decided that he was more correct in this area.

WL drew on many 19th century sources for his teachings. Some of these were excellent, some were not. I think those taken from Darby, especially after he expelled Newton and Muller in the late 1840's, were the worst.

Many of these teachings, some hidden beneath the surface, instilled a "feel good" arrogance into all the hearers. The elitest "we are the Recovery," and the exclusive "no one else has what we have," are perhaps the most destructive, filling the Recovery with Laodicean pride and blindness.

Beyond this were the obvious errors like the ground of unity, the MOTA teachings, becoming God, the economy of God, etc.

[Zezima]

The outline sub point claims that God put man in front of the tree of life…but the following verses make no claim of that.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I am asking to determine where you are on the topic of "judgement for the believer". There is a pretty wide spectrum of opinions on this subject, ranging from "there is no judgement for the believer" (i.e. exemption) all the way to "it is possible for a 'slacker' to be thrown into Gehenna along with the unbelievers.

Your responses so far indicate you are in the left end of the spectrum, essentially believing that judgement is solely for the unbeliever, and has nothing to do with one's level of sanctification. I think this view is "far too left".

In the context of those who left the LR, I have seen those who deLEEted his teachings of Sheol followed by resurrection and judgement, and have adopted a more mainstream view of heaven or hell, with the believers expecting to ascend immediately to heaven upon death. I think this view is also "too far left". Despite Lee's many flaws, I ultimately decided that he was more correct in this area.

Just wanting to get to know you better,

Timotheist,
I will respond to your question. I started to write a post and will finish it hopefully this weekend if I have time.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Zezima

The outline sub point claims that God put man in front of the tree of life…but the following verses make no claim of that.

I had the same exact discussion with someone from TLR the other day, and they quickly changed the subject and jump to John 6, to make their connection somehow. What a surprise! “I’m a bread of life is the answer” as I was told. I said the tree of life wasn’t even mentioned until after the fall, but the subject was changed to something else very quickly.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

I had the same exact discussion with someone from TLR the other day, and they quickly changed the subject and jump to John 6, to make their connection somehow.

I was once told that pray-reading now includes Lee's outlines and footnotes. So one cannot challenge either and maintain "oneness".

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I was once told that pray-reading now includes Lee's outlines and footnotes. So one cannot challenge either and maintain "oneness".

Just a side note, since you mentioned pray-reading:

It's another one of those lame concepts, not found anywhere. Praying the Word of God to God, as if He needs a reminder of what He said. How about actually using the sound mind that you suppose to have, and trying to ask Him on how is that applicable to your life today. Asking Him for wisdom to understand it. What a novel concept! You can do a whole new thread just on this subject alone, but I will forego that temptation!

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I am asking to determine where you are on the topic of "judgement for the believer". There is a pretty wide spectrum of opinions on this subject, ranging from "there is no judgement for the believer" (i.e. exemption) all the way to "it is possible for a 'slacker' to be thrown into Gehenna along with the unbelievers.

Your responses so far indicate you are in the left end of the spectrum, essentially believing that judgement is solely for the unbeliever, and has nothing to do with one's level of sanctification. I think this view is "far too left".

In the context of those who left the LR, I have seen those who deLEEted his teachings of Sheol followed by resurrection and judgement, and have adopted a more mainstream view of heaven or hell, with the believers expecting to ascend immediately to heaven upon death. I think this view is also "too far left". Despite Lee's many flaws, I ultimately decided that he was more correct in this area.

Just wanting to get to know you better,

Regarding your point about being “exempt”.

I will say the following:

1. The ultimate flaw of this concept of “exempt”, is misunderstanding of what gospel really is.

2. When the Gospel has been made anything more than what Jesus has said of, in John 5:24 (KJV) “*Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”, its no longer the gospel of grace but the gospel of works.

3. I have stated on multiple occasions on this forum regarding Jesus+ fallacies that are so much present in the churches today, recovery included, that its the most destructive and disabling form of spiritual abuse, that people subject themselves too. There are no multiple steps in your salvation, you ether saved or your not, you ether believed unto Jesus as the only way or not. Everything above those parameters is a flawed gospel its the Gospel of works!

4. Salvation is not a process, or something you work for, its something that’s a FREE GIFT OF GOD, By GRACE, By FAITH! It’s irreversible! Once one is born again, you cannot be unborn! Once a person believes and understand that it’s only by Christ alone and not of themselves, puts total trust in that ALONE, then he shall not come into condemnation, but passed from death unto life! God is not going to be reviewing your good works vs your bad once to see if you are saved for eternity, its weather you put your trust in the work of Jesus Christ and His completed work on this earth, that’s what matters!

5. Anyone that has put his faith in Christ, and by that, therefore has been born again, is a child of God, and will not be condemned to hell! Heb 10:14 (KJV) says “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” That one offering has made me sanctified before God, through the completed work of Christ, and not of anything that I will do in my lifetime. In Isaiah 64:6 it says, “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” Nothing and I mean nothing you will be able to add to your salvation! Not a single deed, or your work of sanctification!

6. Lastly, for those who disagree with this gospel and believe something that a person does in their work of sanctification will somehow make a determination on their future, or that they won’t know their true outcome until they stand before God, I will say the following: Rom 11:6 says, “*And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” The arguments that one will hear here, is, what about the slackers? and you have a blanket license to live how you want, do absolutely nothing, live in sin, have no desire for living by the Word of God, etc. I state that it is impossible for the true born again believer to do so, and I’m not a perfectionist theology supporter. James 3:10-12 says “Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.*Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.”
How can this be? How can a true born again believer be a slacker? Not possible! I can’t imagine a day that I would not be thankful to God for what He has done for me, paid in full for all of my sins, adopted me as a son, and gave me a full assurance of the eternal life, that I would forsake to love Him and His commandments, not for my salvation purposes, but as a thankfullness for what He has done for me. BUT even if there will come a day when it is not so, He by His mercy and Grace, and by being My Father, will do the following as He promises in Heb 12:6-8,
6*For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7*If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8*But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Simple Gospel, simple sanctification, simple end results! Live by faith in Christ, justified by Faith, sanctified through His work on the cross once, and his righteousness is imputed to me, not through anything of my own. The things that I do today, are for my reward, for running the race, and not for anything else. My future is as certain today as it was on the day I put my faith in Christ, and therefore anyone that does so, will not be condemned.

Good works, trying very hard to become an overcomer, destroying your soul, eating of the tree of life, following a vision, subjecting yourself to the yokes of man, will not get you there, nether for your salvation of works or levels of your sanctification.

I don’t care where someone writes me in regarding far left, or far right, or up or down, so you can make that determination for yourself.

Thanks.

[OBW]

Paul V,

Some comments on your last post.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Seems to be a variation on John 3:16. And we fail to understand one word in both. We keep reading it in the King James as "believeth." And I think that we miss that in today's language, this is "believes." And "believes" is a term of the present, not the past. So the question that arises is "where is the point at which belief matters?" Listening to your statements, it would seem that it is "anytime," even if that time is not "now."

Salvation is not a process, or something you work for, it's something that’s a FREE GIFT OF GOD, By GRACE, By FAITH! It’s irreversible!

I think that if you look at the source of that statement, the thing that is the free gift of God, provided by grace, and is irreversible, is the fact of the sacrifice of Christ for our sins. Yet, the scriptures themselves indicate that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. So there is salvation that must be a process and that we must work for.

And there is a parable that indicates that salvation is, in its entirety, not so simple and singular. The word of grace doesn't find root in some, but of those in which it does find root, it does not remain in all. In some, it has insufficient root and nutrients and dies. In others, it is choked out by the cares of the world. And in others, it grows to its full potential. Do you say that those in which the seed takes root but dies simply do not truly believe? That they do not have any faith? That is not how Jesus describes it. If, with all that they are, they have faith and belief at one point, yet are eventually overcome by the cares of the world and fall away, do you insist that they still believe — even if they would deny it? Or do you take the Calvinist position that they never really believed? That Jesus didn't really tell it right in that parable?

I do not propose a solution, but I do assert that the simplistic "I don't do anything because it is all grace" is never supported by the scripture as a whole. Only by selected quotations divorced from all else within those scriptures. Maybe the problem is the meaning of "assurance of salvation." Maybe it is better to assert that if you are believing, you have a basis for assurance, and if you no longer believe and have no desire for assurance, then there is no longer anything to be sure of. I'm not sure if that is correct. But the rather "clear" words in scripture do not really support your simplistic position.

[OBW]

Further to my last post, Paul V brings up Romans 11:6. And that can be found in other ways in other passages. But in each of those, the point is not that we do not "work out our salvation," but that the core, the seed, of salvation is the work of Christ which we are unable to work for. It needs no addition of our work. In one place, they were being seduced to question their salvation until they had been circumcised. Or were eating properly kosher foods. This was as a precursor to receiving God's gift of grace. But after that gift, there is nothing that says it cannot be set aside. Even that verse saying "no one can snatch them out of my hand" only asserts that those who are securely in hand cannot be removed by another. But the repeating of "believes" and that parable of the sower would indicate that our belief — something subject to us, not to others — might not be subject to the "no one can snatch them" edict.

Again, I do not say that this provides a solution or a firm doctrine. Rather, that we may have been captured into believing dogmas based on contextless snippets of words found in the scripture. Otherwise, I find that we must be constantly engaged in throwing out scripture with the same intent as Lee did. Just different parts.

I am assured of my salvation because I believe, not because at one point in time in the past I may have believed. And I am not having problems with those verses that say no one can take them from Jesus' hand because the actual words used do not seem to say what we have so long declared them to mean.

And, in the midst of all of this, I understand that even the guy who came to the meetings in Dallas decades ago, got saved in one of those gospel meetings where we had them stand and say "Oh Lord Jesus," (then stuck around for a while, and robbed everyone while they were in Anaheim so he could support his heroin addiction and was never seen again) might now actually have the nagging of the Hoy Spirit within him. But he may not. It may have just been rocky ground. And I know. Some may think it was just a charade to gain our trust. We don't know.

[Timotheist]

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men
(2Co*5:10-11*NAU)

10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
...
12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this-- not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
...
18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
(Rom*14:10-18*NAU)

There is a judgement for the believer, and it is based on works. We will be judged in two ways, based on works and whether our names or in the book of life:

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
...
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Rev*20:12-15*NAU)

Now it does not say that we will be thrown into Gehenna based on our works: that penalty if reserved for those who were not destined for eternal life.

The penalties for the saved are not spelled out in this passage, but we have several parables in the gospels from which to draw these outcomes.

Our eternal destiny is NOT simply a matter of belief/unbelief. Our role in the land of the living will be determined in part by our works. And, like the type of the tabernacle, the New Creation is divided into three groups, the holy, the holier, and the holiest, thus tying sanctification to our works.

It is not the works themselves that make us holy, but it is through good works that the Spirit sanctifies us.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by OBW

Paul V,

Seems to be a variation on John 3:16. And we fail to understand one word in both. We keep reading it in the King James as "believeth." And I think that we miss that in today's language, this is "believes." And "believes" is a term of the present, not the past. So the question that arises is "where is the point at which belief matters?" Listening to your statements, it would seem that it is "anytime," even if that time is not "now."

My understanding is the "present time" means this dispensation- the Church Age.
Salvation plans are not all the same. In the Old Testament(after the fall), both belief and works are involved. In the Church Age, saved by grace through faith. After the Church Age, another gospel, the everlasting gospel, is preached by an angel during the Tribulation. (Rev.14:6-7)

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Salvation plans are not all the same. In the Old Testament(after the fall), both belief and works are involved. (Rev.14:6-7)

See the verses I just cited. We also will be judged based on belief and works.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

See the verses I just cited. We also will be judged based on belief and works.

Salvation is salvation; judgment is judgment.

[UntoHim]

You guys are getting off the beaten path. Not sure if there is an existing thread that covers these matters, but maybe one of you could dig it up.
-

[Paul Vusik]

I think that based on all comments and posts here, I can sum up this thread in the following terms:
1. There isn’t a single verse in the Bible that equates Jesus as a “tree of life”. None was presented here, as expected.
2. There isn’t a single mention in the Bible regarding “God putting man in front of the “tree of life”.
3. There isn’t a single mention about God instructing man to eat of “the tree of life”
4. All that TLR calls “recovered truths”, regarding this matter, is just another made up nonsense. Trying to fit their theology into the Bible, rather than letting the Bible tell the story.
5. The Gospel message doesn’t include “the tree of life”, or any association with it.
6. New covenant is by faith, not of works, and definitely not of the “tree of life”, but JESUS CHRIST ALONE!
7. Lastly, all of the books, messages, conferences, HWMRs, regarding this matter of the “tree of life”, are just a typical ploy sold by TLR, to keep people busy and occupy them with made up nonsense, and get them off the Word of God! Keep them coming back for the next updates on the “recovered truths”. (I’m guessing that the bunker where they recovering them from is pretty shallow, since they just have to keep making stuff up to keep it going).

I don’t see a point of having any further discussion regarding the main topic of this thread, so moderator, you are welcome to close this thing down, since like you stated “we’re getting off the beaten path”. Further discussion about salvation and sanctification can be done in ether existing threads or up to anyone I guess to bring up that topic for discussion.

[Trapped]

Can I make a request that the thread not be closed down? I've noticed this more recently, when people get their questions answered, the thread is sometimes closed. But this means that future guests and registered posters can not ever comment on the thread.

I know reddit does this....at a certain point a thread is locked and cannot be commented on further, but in the past I have only seen that on this forum for threads that have blown up so terribly the only recourse is to prevent anyone from commenting further. That's not this case at all.

Of course, Paul as the OP can certainly ask for the thread to be closed.....I'm just hoping to put my $0.02 about that topic for consideration in case it could be left open instead.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

I think that based on all comments and posts here, I can sum up this thread in the following terms:
1. There isn’t a single verse in the Bible that equates Jesus as a “tree of life”. None was presented here, as expected.

Huh? I provided the verse right away.

[Timotheist]

Revelation 22:1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 On either side of the river was the tree of life,
(Rev*22:1-2*NAU)

OK I think I get it. Jesus said He was living water, but He did not say He was the tree of life.

If I have the privilege of being offered this fruit, I will have to remind myself that I am eating something other than Christ, and just stick to drinking the water.

But seriously folks. herein lies the answer to Paul's question. The water of life is free for all, without cost. Unconditional.

But access to the Tree of Life has conditions. It is not an automatic reward. So when the focus is on redemption, Jesus did not explicitly refer to Himself as the TOL.

But when it comes to judgement, the TOL is a reward.

[Trapped]

Wait, I may have misspoken early on in this thread.

I said, "Jesus said He was the water of life."

Did He? I'm looking and all of a sudden I cannot find where He says that.

He said rivers of living water will flow from within us if we believe in Him. He said He will give us to drink of the river of water of life. But......I'm not sure anymore that He said He IS the water of life. Am I mistaken?

Trapped

[UntoHim]

Sometimes we Christians can be a strange and funny lot. We take simple metaphors, and then (wittingly or unwittingly) make a metaphor out of a metaphor. And then we make another metaphor out of...well...you know what I mean. Before you know it, we are putting up banners in meeting halls with slogans such as "The Triune God dispensed into the tripartite man as the seven-fold-intensified-life-giving-Spirit to be dispensed into the human spirit for our enjoyment (take deep breath) so that man can express and enjoy God and bring forth the ultimate expression of God and man as expressed in the local churches (take deep breath) and ultimately in the New Jerusalem which is the ultimate expression of God mingled with man for the expression and enjoyment of the Triune God".

Somewhere in Coastal Orange County California, on a nice fall day in 1975, I sat as a captive audience, of sorts, in a Friday night Gospel meeting of the Local Church of Witness Lee. I was already a believer. I had already drunk of the living water (or so I thought?!?) Here were some crazy Mormon-looking young people, standing and singing "WHAT, NEVER THIRST AGAIN? NO! NEVER THIRST AGAIN! WHAT NEVER THIRST AGAIN? NO! NEVER THIRST AGAIN! AND WHOSO DRINKITH, JESUS SAID, SHALL NEVER NEVER THIRST AGAIN!" I was like "the women at the well" in John 4. The Lord Jesus was speaking a life-giving metaphor - "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water" (vr 10) This woman, as sinful and in the wrong religion as she was, was not as unperceptive and dense as most of us. She said, "SIR, GIVE ME THIS WATER!" And here we sit 2,000+ years later, deeply and sincerely pondering and questioning this ancient metaphor, when we should probably be standing up and shouting at the top of our lungs "SIR, GIVE ME THIS WATER!"

No worries my friend Trapped, this thread will not be closed. It will not be closed until one of you directs us perfectly to the Living Water, and perfectly to the Tree of Life. And even then....why close it? I'm thirsty. I want the living water. I'm hungry, I want the tree of life. I don't want to thirst again, I don't want to hunger again.

Here's the lovely and talented Emma Yang to save me from this train wreck of a post.....

Never Thirst Again!
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[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"The Triune God dispensed into the tripartite man as the seven-fold-intensified-life-giving-Spirit to be dispensed into the human spirit for our enjoyment (take deep breath) so that man can express and enjoy God and bring forth the ultimate expression of God and man as expressed in the local churches (take deep breath) and ultimately in the New Jerusalem which is the ultimate expression of God mingled with man for the expression and enjoyment of the Triune God".

You gotta insert the phrase “for our enjoyment” in there somewhere!

I always thought that was one of the weirdest things he wrote…. Like God will only get what He wants by making us happy.

[UntoHim]

Thanks Mr. T! Done!
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[Nell]

This might help…

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

As all you know, or at least the people that at one time where a part of TLR, that there is a very high emphasis put on the ideology of “we must choose to eat of the tree of life”, and don’t be like Adam and Eve and choose the wrong thing.

However, unless I’m mistaken, there isn’t a single verse of scripture that equates Jesus Christ to the tree of life, nether calls Him the tree of life. I don’t care about symbolism or typology, nether do I care about some interpretation that says so. As far as I know and doing some studies on the matter, there is only 12 times that the tree of life is mentioned in the Bible, and not one of those referring to Christ!

The reason I’m posting this is to find out if anyone here can or had done some studies about it and has some input.

Just a side note, I’m not interested in any recovery bible verses, or footnotes, or quotes. I have a very strong suspicion where all this comes from, but was hoping to get some feedback first to see if it connects the dots.

Thanks.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

As all you know, or at least the people that at one time where a part of TLR, that there is a very high emphasis put on the ideology of “we must choose to eat of the tree of life”, and don’t be like Adam and Eve and choose the wrong thing.

However, unless I’m mistaken, there isn’t a single verse of scripture that equates Jesus Christ to the tree of life, nether calls Him the tree of life. I don’t care about symbolism or typology, nether do I care about some interpretation that says so. As far as I know and doing some studies on the matter, there is only 12 times that the tree of life is mentioned in the Bible, and not one of those referring to Christ!

The reason I’m posting this is to find out if anyone here can or had done some studies about it and has some input.

Just a side note, I’m not interested in any recovery bible verses, or footnotes, or quotes. I have a very strong suspicion where all this comes from, but was hoping to get some feedback first to see if it connects the dots.

Thanks.

I’ve found, to my great frustration, that Witness Lee proposes many things that, on the surface, may sound very “Christian” but are rather really odd when you dig deeper. Is it really so radical to compare Jesus to the Tree of Life? The man in whom is eternal life? The man who said “eat me and live forever”? The man who said “my words are life” and that he is life? I would say that it is not so radical. The Tree of Life offered eternal life to man, and now Jesus does. It’s not the craziest thing I’ve heard.

No, my problem is with Lee’s extreme view on the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and his portrayal of all pursuit of knowledge being somehow inherently bad. This idea of “eating Christ” which is derived from biblical scriptures and the idea of avoiding “good and evil” because it’s on the “wrong tree” has several dangerous pitfalls that can be damaging to interpersonal relationships within The Lord’s Recovery and to the congregation at large which consumes many of Lee’s teachings. All critical thought is shut down, especially any thoughts that are critical of Lee, the elders, or the teachings of The Lord's Recovery which come from their own little "Watchtower" known as Living Stream Ministry. This teaching, along with their "Minister/Ministry of the Age" doctrines, is rooted in a desire for complete and total thought control which discourages the saints from really and truly meditating over and studying the scriptures and, subsequently, the teachings that are being given to them on a nearly daily basis by this denomination.

You want to talk about doctrines and scriptural analysis? Nope! That’s knowledge, and knowledge brings death! Let’s just “eat Christ”! You have genuine questions and misgivings about the “Ministry” and want to talk about it? Nah, brother, just focus on “eating Christ”! You want to critique one of the teachings/ideas found in the morning revival? Nope! That’s death! We’re just here to “eat” and “enjoy Christ”! You have a problem with the way certain brothers/elders handle church matters or a certain word they gave to the congregation? Nope! That’s death, so stop talking about it! Why focus on trash when you can focus on the good stuff? Just “eat Christ”! Even if you’re right, it’s just “true trash” that will upset people and potentially cause division! Would you really just want to be right at the cost of causing divisions? That’s not very Christ-like! Don’t be a divider! Don’t let all those questions get in the way of the “fellowship”! Don’t let the Devil take a hold of you! Just “eat Christ”! Oh, this sister wrote and published an open letter where she poured out her heart to the brothers and sisters in The Lord’s Recovery about her struggles and concerns? Nope! That’s just an attack from Satan and it brings death! Don’t even read her letter unless you want to touch death! Stay away! Just “enjoy Christ” with the brothers and sisters! Just “eat Christ” with the saints! Such a constant stream of thought-stopping language instills in the saints a deep-seated fear of examining the teachings being given to them, making them vulnerable to further spiritual abuse by their brothers, sisters, and leaders.

What completely infuriating and utterly thorough nonsense is Lee’s concept of “eating Christ” and his false dichotomy of “life vs knowledge.” When I hear most Christians talk about Jesus being the Tree of Life, I know they simply mean he is where we get eternal life, but when I hear the saints in The Lord’s Recovery talk about Jesus being the Tree of Life and “eating Christ”, I am well aware of all the hidden meanings that such seemingly innocuous words entail, and it makes me sick to my stomach. I’ve said it elsewhere and I’ll say it here: there is no set of doctrines that piss me off more than Lee’s tainted teachings regarding “knowledge” and “the dead letter” which stem from his perverted presentation of the concepts of “life” and “death.”