Prophecy - The End Times

[Ohio]

Dispensationalism definitely has value in the study of the Bible, but like anything, can be taken to extremes. Those who teach pre-trib rapture of the entire church are simply forced to shoehorn too many scriptures which indicate otherwise.

I first heard this from Hal Lindsey, who based this teaching solely on the absence of the word “church” after Revelations 3. While this speculative fulfillment of prophecy was quite appealing to us as immature Christians, the Bible never said as much.

Much of prophetic scripture concerning the believers during the end times seems to address us individually, rather than as a collective. Consider, “one is taken, one is left.” Israel, however, noting Daniel’s prophecies, often views the collective.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

However, nothing I've heard or read has swayed me from still thinking mostly in Dispensationalist terms, that is, there will be an "hour of trial" to come upon the whole earth, then there will be rapture(s), and Jesus will return to set up His thousand year kingdom on earth, and His elect will rule and reign over the earth with Him.

I still see validity in some amount of dispensational thinking, but I believe there is some error in it as well. I am significantly literal in my views and interpretation, but I can poke holes in a strict literal approach. I do think God has dealt with man under some "phases" of His administration, but I do not fully agree with how dispensationalists have handled what I call the "Audiences of God".

Every prophetic speaking is addressed to an audience. As I read my Bible over the years, I began to realize that I could connect most of these audiences (directly or indirectly) back to Genesis 10 (aka "table of nations"). This table includes both God's OT people, the enemies of God's OT people and other more distant lands who didn't interact with God's OT people.

Even now, there remain unfulfilled prophecies to various "Audiences of God" that were composed under one "dispensation". The transition to a new "dispensation" has not invalidated God's word or the audience it is addressed to. We have to map forward these audiences captured in the Old Testament to the equivalent audience in the time the prophecy is fulfilled. For this forum topic, we are interested in how these audiences map to the End Times.

I have thought quite a bit about how this type of mapping can work. For example, let's use one particular audience to think about the mapping process... Greece.

Genesis 10:2-5

2 The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 And the sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 And the sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples spread out through their lands, each according to his own language by their own families, in their nations.

Greece comes from the 4th son of Japheth, Javan. Greece is part of the coastland peoples as denoted in Genesis 10:5 ("from these the coastland peoples spread out"). Historians and Bible scholars agree that the name "Javan" mutates to "Ion" (i.e. the Ionians) who are the peoples of Greece. Greece is a nation that has been known down through the ages up until the present time. They are also a culture (Hellenism) that has influenced many other cultures throughout the ages. The Greek culture and way of thinking is important in New Testament time as seen through Paul's writings (ex: 1 Cor 1:22 - Jews ask for sign miracles and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified).

Here are a few examples of references to Javan, Greece/Greeks and the coastlands. This is not a full list of references:

• Javan - see Isaiah 66:19 and Zechariah 9:13 (both of these were prophetic when spoken)
• Greece/Greeks - see Daniel 8:21, Joel 3:6, Romans 1:16
• part of "the coastlands" (Genesis 10:5) - see Isaiah 11:11, Isaiah 49:1, Ezekiel 26:18

If you review these examples, you will see that God is specifically targeting prophetic speaking to the Grecian/Greek "people grouping" established in the "table of nations" of Genesis 10. Some of God's targeted prophetic speaking HASN'T HAPPENED YET. So, how do we map God's speaking forward in time???

Methods of Mapping
1. Is it Future bloodline lineal descendants which may not be identifiable as a grouping in modern times?
2. Is it a Future nation, people grouping, and/or culture with the same or changed name?
3. Is it a Future nation, people grouping, and/or culture under the same spiritual dominion with the same OR different name?
4. Is it some combination of #1-#3

I know I cannot give a fully definitive answer and say it is only #1, #2 or #3 or even a combination (#4). I have seen passages that could work with any of these mappings. I have seen other passages where only one of these "methods of mapping" seems to make any sense. I do not presume to be able to resolve this challenge, but instead I hold the relevant scripture in my mind "loosely" as God's word that will be fulfilled exactly as it was said to "Audience of God" to whom He directed it.

I don't let my ideas of "dispensationalism" override the direct prophetic speaking of God even though I cannot fully comprehend the meaning of some of these prophetic speakings. The main point of sharing this in response to your comment about dispensationalism is to introduce the idea of the "Audiences of God" and that as I have read what The Author of these prophecies has said and the audiences that The Author uses I find that I rarely even consider the word "dispensation" or "dispensationalism". After a while, I realized that some of what I was learning sometimes cut through dispensational thinking. This doesn't destroy the idea dispensationalism. I have just learned to put "dispensational thinking" in it's place. It is a conceptualization of man (not God) about the truth of God's word and its application across the ages which may not hold up.

The ("I don't think there is a resurrection") Saduccees found out about how their reasoning and conceptualization of the topic of resurrection held up when they spoke to The Author.

Matthew 22:29

But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God!

I know it may not seem relevant to focus on the "Audiences of God" in prophecy, but when we change our example from Javan/Ionian/Greece (or Greek) to the people groupings in Israel it becomes very interesting. When I started reading the Bible with the "Audiences of God" and further understanding these audiences, the entire history of Israel changed in my understanding. As my understanding changed, so did my interpretation of some End Times prophecies.

Matt

p.s. next comes the rapture...

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

...Every prophetic speaking is addressed to an audience. As I read my Bible over the years, I began to realize that I could connect most of these audiences (directly or indirectly) back to Genesis 10 (aka "table of nations"). This table includes both God's OT people, the enemies of God's OT people and other more distant lands who didn't interact with God's OT people.

To make sure I understand what you're saying, before you can properly understand what someone says in any speaking, you need to know who the speaker was addressing. Especially when interpreting the scripture itself in relation to prophecy. For example, a father speaking a message to his daughters vs. a father speaking the identical message to his daughters' boyfriends.

Additionally, that father might use words differently while maintaining the same intended message.

We have all experienced, often with great frustration, the way Witness Lee and the Local Church leadership have used words differently, without paying attention to the integrity of the message of the message/s in the scriptures..

Even now, there remain unfulfilled prophecies to various "Audiences of God" that were composed under one "dispensation". The transition to a new "dispensation" has not invalidated God's word or the audience it is addressed to. We have to map forward these audiences captured in the Old Testament to the equivalent audience in the time the prophecy is fulfilled. For this forum topic, we are interested in how these audiences map to the End Times.

Would an example of this "disconnect" be the verses that say things "surely I come quickly" when thousands of years have passed and He has not returned. Or, with the phrase "I come" his coming may have more than one manifestation or "definition". That is, this type of similar admonitions were spoken in different contexts, or to different groups.

Another example would be whether the OT prophets were speaking to Gentiles or to Jews. "Jews" would include "Children of Israel", "Israel", "the House of God", and other designations which I have always believed to be the same group of people. Now I'm rethinking this assumption.

Nell

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Nell

"Jews" would include "Children of Israel", "Israel", "the House of God", and other designations which I have always believed to be the same group of people. Now I'm rethinking this assumption.

Some Audiences related to Israel: Jacob, Israel, Judah (Jehudi/Jew), Ephraim, House of God/Yahweh, House of Jacob, House of Israel, children of Israel, House of Judah, House of Levi, House of Joseph

There is a lot of intricacy here in the names which is very relevant to interpreting prophecies of the Old Testament. It is helpful (but not always critical) to understand the name reference (i.e. House of Judah, House of Israel) at the time it was spoken and who the name reference is pointing to for future fulfillment.

This subject moves into the topic of "Who is Israel?". Most christians lump everything into one name, "Israel" and then think in terms of "Israel" versus the "Church".

Using your example of "Jew", it comes from Jehudi which comes from Judah or the Southern Kingdom (aka House of Judah). Judah is a single tribe which rises to preeminence in Israel by the time of David. Judah WAS NOT preeminent before the time of David. Ephraim was the preeminent tribe. Ephraim bore the title of House of Israel at multiple stages in the history of Israel. House of Israel is an overarching title that still has relevance today beyond what most people think of when they say "Israel". I have multiple scriptural proofs of the preeminence of Ephraim until the time of David which can be reviewed as needed. Ephraim's standing as the preeminent tribe in Israel starts in Genesis 49 and goes all the way into the time of Samuel. Here is one passage that helps to understand both the preeminence of Ephraim and the transition to Judah in the time of David. It is from Psalm 78 that reviews some of the history of Israel up to the point the Psalm was written. Even after this point, Ephraim is distinctly spoken to prophetically in ways that could only apply to the future (at or after Jesus Christ's first coming). If you sum it all up and think of all the various references as "Israel", then you miss a lot.

Psalm 78:56–60 (LEB)
56 But they tested and rebelled against God Most High and did not keep his statutes. 57 And they turned and were treacherous like their ancestors. They twisted like a crooked bow. 58 For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and made him jealous with their images. 59 God heard and he was very angry and rejected Israel utterly. 60 So he abandoned the dwelling place at Shiloh, the tent he had placed among humankind. ... 67 And he rejected the tent of Joseph, and did not choose the tribe of Ephraim, 68 but chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion that he loved.

There is quite a bit more intricacy here if you trace the title "House of Israel" through the course of Old Testament history. The ownership of this title moves around as their history progresses.

For now, I will leave this with a few questions (with answers) to consider. When we say, "Jew" does that mean ALL of Israel? (No, it doesn't.) When we say "Israelite" does this cover ALL Jews? (Yes, it does.) Are their other "Israelites" that are NOT "Jews"? (Yes, there are.)

This isn't just an exercise in name research. It has direct bearing on End Times prophecy. I'm going to stick with going over the rapture next, but your comment provoked a preview related to "Who Is Israel?".

Matt

[Matt Anderson]

The rapture - part 1

Here are some options for the timing and audience of the rapture that I have heard, read or envisioned over the years. In my mind, each of these views has a different ranking or weighting of likelihood. For example, most pre-tribulational rapture proponents will emphasize that it is not in the nature of God to put the church through the events of the Great Tribulation. They also point at key portions of the Word as support.

Having gone through this exercise for each variation of interpretation from multiple perspectives, I can pretty confidently say that there is no way to come to a definitive conclusion and remain intellectually honest. I know that some people think they can, but under the scrutiny of testing I don't think any view really holds up. Over the years, I attempted to take up each view in my mind (and through notes) to see if there was any view that I could support without also being able to poke holes in it. I haven't found any view that can legitimately survive attempts to poke holes in them.

As background, I think it is worth mentioning that most people on this forum will fit into the "dispensational pre-millenial" view, but there are also "historical premillenialists", "amillenialists" and "post-millenialists". I'm not trying to chase all these views, just sharing that there are entirely different approaches to the key End Times events that can alter how you handle the Word of God. I'm sticking with more of a "dispensational pre-millenial" view which basically just says that Jesus Christ will "literally" return for the second time before we enter the time of the Millenial Kingdom.

For the rapture, here are some of the views I have entertained in review of this topic over a number of years. The complexity of all of these views against the whole of scripture has made my head spin. I haven't spent unending hours of analysis trying to figure it out. I've had help and with some insights from God, I have verified what I have seen against scripture. Even after doing this, I still hold my current understanding "loosely" because of the speculative nature of this topic.

TIMING:
For a one-time, singular fulfillment of the rapture:

• Pre-trib - the whole "church" before the start of the Great Tribulation (I have defined this as 3.5 years) or 7-year period since others define the Great Tribulation as 7 years.
• Mid-trib - the whole "church" near or at the middle of the Great Tribulation (this fits better with a 7-year view of Great Tribulation)
• Pre-wrath - the whole "church" before God's wrath is poured out
• Out of the Midst of Wrath - the whole "church" out of the midst of God's wrath being poured out
• Post-wrath - the whole "church" after God's wrath is poured out

Some of these timings may seem implausible. Especially, "out of the midst of wrath" and "post-wrath". When we start to review all the text, you may be surprised that at least one of these two is not implausible.

For a multiple occurrence fulfillment of the rapture:

• Multiple fulfillments of rapture for portions of the "saints" (pre-, mid-, etc). I am not equating "saints" with the whole church.
• Progressive rapture based on individual maturity
• Progressive rapture based on individual maturity with multiple fulfillments of rapture mixed in as well

These are the main ones I know, does anyone have any more?

AUDIENCE (OR TARGET) OF RAPTURE:
You don't have to pick just one item from this list. It could be a combination of items.

• Some (mature, overcomers, etc) or All of the Church
• Tribulation Saints (if they exist as a distinct grouping under a different dispensation)
• Some or All of Old Testament Saints - I tossed this one in just to move "outside the box" in thinking about this subject. Will all the Old Testament ones that God has credited with faith wait for the end of the Millenial Kingdom to be raised from the dead?

In general, figuring out the audience of the rapture gets hard right away. Even if we narrow our thoughts to just the Church, We do not know when membership in the Church stops. We assume things about this topic. Assuming that the total membership in the Church starts with Jesus' death and resurrection and ends at another point in time, we can look at the POSSIBLE timing and end point of membership in the Church. Said another way, we do not know when the "dispensation of grace through Jesus Christ" ends and another dispensation begins. Here are some options.

1. Assuming a pre-tribulational rapture of all members of the Church then this could be the endpoint
2. If the rapture happens later - the "eternal gospel" (Rev 14:6) could be the endpoint
3. If the rapture happens later - Armageddon/Christ's Second Coming could be the endpoint

There may be some other endpoint options, but these three seem to be most plausible.

Sorry to be so analytical with all these categorizations and interpretive options, but this topic is a mine field that kind of requires doing this to try to bring some foundations before proceeding. Next, I am going to start introducing key text from the Bible related to the rapture. If I miss some references that anyone thinks are important, please add them in.

Matt

[countmeworthy]

Here is my perspective on the rapture/ 2nd coming of Christ. Part 1

All true believers will be raptured regardless of their maturity. The key phrase is TRUE BELIEVERS. Babies, children, mentally handicapped people will also be raptured. I also believe most if not all animals will also be rescued. I base this belief about animals on God’s love for them. There were a lot more animals in the ark than people.

The Lord’s return is in 2 major stages. I do believe there will be other raptures after the big one.

My case for the rapture are patterns.

Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him. Everyone else was “left behind”. There is no evidence of people witnessing the Lord taking him. But God’s Word states it twice. 1) Genesis. 2) Hebrews

Then there is Elijah. He knew he was going to be raptured as did Elisha and the prophets following them. There were many witnesses to Elijah’s rapture.
2 KINGS chapter 2. A chariot with horses picked up Elijah proving there are animals in heaven.

At this time I am going to submit additional theories to the big rapture. It is going to be mind blowing and I am going to ask you to hold your fire before you shoot. Hopefully however, what I am going to propose will make some sense.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Hopefully however, what I am going to propose will make some sense.

Boy oh boy…how to begin.

Ok I will start with 1 Corinthians 15:52-53. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last Trump, the dead in Christ will be raised incorruptible, The corruptible will put on incorruptiion, the mortal->immortality. We will all be changed

Next
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The Lord will descend with a shout, with the Voice of the Archangel and the Trump of God. The dead will rise first, the we who are alive AND REMAIN will be caught up with them in the clouds and meet the Lord in the Air.

Next:
Matthew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened. Then many bodies of the saints that slept arose. They came out of the graves after His resurrection and went into the city and appeared to many.

The scriptures don’t say what became of the risen saints but I personally believe when Jesus ascended, they did too. Otherwise how could these people who saw them and most likely spoke with them, truly believe in the resurrection of Jesus had they died again? Not everyone saw Jesus ascend after all.

So here is my proposal:

I think it is very possible that when the dead in Christ rise first and we who are alive AND REMAIN, will witness to many people just as the resurrected saints did after Jesus resurrected. We will be here a short time, perhaps 10 days, maybe a bit longer IN OUR PERFECT GLORIFIED BODIES. For we will have been changed in the twinkling of an eye. No more corruptible body, no more mortal body. Truly “no weapon formed against us will prosper”. Then just as Elijah passed “the baton” to Elisha, we will pass the baton to (drumroll) the 144,000 servants of God from the 12 tribes of Israel.

Could it be Elijah is a picture of the true believers being caught up and Elisha receiving the double portion of Elijah’s spirit are the 144,000 servants of God from the 12 tribes of Israel?

If we consider what the angel said in Revelation 7 to the 4 other angels, I think it could very well be that the reason the command for them not to hurt the earth, the sea, the trees until the 144K are sealed with the Seal of God on their foreheads, is they had to wait for us to “pass the baton” to them, and THEN we WHO REMAINED for a short while are raptured.

I know this line of thinking is far fetched but also consider the book of Acts especially before Paul came into the scene…the Boldness, the miracles, even Phillip being caught up by the Spirit was found in Azotus after baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch who was reading from Isaiah regarding Jesus. As soon as they came out of the water the Ethiopian never saw Phillip again. And Phillip was immediately found in the city of Azotus (Acts chapter 8:26-40)

I leave you with John 14:12
Verily, verily I say unto you. He who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do. And greater works than these he will do because I go to My Father.

This is just FOOD FOR THOUGHT! I am following a Bible study on Revelation. I have had a lot of questions on the book..still do but one thing I am truly convinced now, is Revelation is not written in chronological order, that is from left to right.

When we consider that we don’t learn about Lucifer’s fall from heaven until Isaiah 14 and not Genesis 1, it’s not too far fetched for me to think outside the box, that Revelation is not written in chronological and how the rapture may occur.

Peace in Christ Jesus everyone!
Carol

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

At this time I am going to submit additional theories to the big rapture. It is going to be mind blowing and I am going to ask you to hold your fire before you shoot. Hopefully however, what I am going to propose will make some sense.

Too funny!

Go for it! We're all just presenting our views. No firing squads here!