Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Btw, You didn’t answer my question, “Is Jehovah Jesus?” It might be the question is too simple and doesn't deserve an answer, or it’s too difficult that you don't have an answer.

Sorry Bible-believer, I overlooked this question. Thanks for calling my attention to it.

The answer is Yes! Jesus is Jehovah.

Jehovah means I Am. I Am that I Am.
Exodus 3:14-15
"And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. And He said Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you. And God also said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the children, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is My memorial from generation to generation."

Jesus said He was the I Am.... three times in John 8. John 8:24, 28, 58

John 8:24 "Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

v28 "Jesus therefore said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am, and that I do nothing from Myself, but as my Father has taught Me, I speak these things."

v58 "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am"

In John 8:24 the Lord gives a solemn warning; anyone who does not believe that the Lord Jesus is this very God, the I Am, will die in his sins.

Thanks
Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Sorry Bible-believer, I overlooked this question. Thanks for calling my attention to it.

The answer is Yes! Jesus is Jehovah.

Jehovah means I Am. I Am that I Am.
Exodus 3:14-15
"And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. And He said Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you. And God also said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the children, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is My memorial from generation to generation."

Jesus said He was the I Am.... three times in John 8. John 8:24, 28, 58

John 8:24 "Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

v28 "Jesus therefore said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am, and that I do nothing from Myself, but as my Father has taught Me, I speak these things."

v58 "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am"

In John 8:24 the Lord gives a solemn warning; anyone who does not believe that the Lord Jesus is this very God, the I Am, will die in his sins.

Thanks
Drake

Drake,

Regarding the "I am" connection......the blind beggar in the next chapter, John 9, said the same thing:

John 9:9
Some were saying, "It is he," but others, were saying, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, "I am he."

It's the same Greek word - eimi.

Was the blind beggar claiming to be Jehovah? Nope. "I am" or "I am he" or "I am the one" is a legitimate and common phrase in any language. It's presence does not mean a God-claim unless the context is there for it.

In fact, in that same chapter, Jesus says explicitly He and the Father are as two completely different people.

John 8:17-18
17 Even in your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid.
18 I am One who testifies about Myself, and the Father, who sent Me, also testifies about Me.”

He tells them that He "tells [them] the truth that [He] heard from God." He doesn't say "I tell you the truth because I am God."

You bring up verse 58, which says:

“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

...and say that's Jesus claiming to be Jehovah, for which they picked up stones to stone Him. But don't forget, two chapters later in chapter 10, Jesus asks the Jews explicitly what they are stoning Him for. They respond because He declares Himself to be God. But Jesus responds not affirming their claim that He declares Himself to be God, but correcting them that He states that He is God's SON.

John 10:32-36
32 But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”
33 “We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”
34 Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’?
35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—
36 then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Sorry Bible-believer, I overlooked this question. Thanks for calling my attention to it.

The answer is Yes! Jesus is Jehovah.

Jehovah means I Am. I Am that I Am.
Exodus 3:14-15
"And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. And He said Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you. And God also said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the children, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is My memorial from generation to generation."

Jesus said He was the I Am.... three times in John 8. John 8:24, 28, 58

John 8:24 "Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

v28 "Jesus therefore said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am, and that I do nothing from Myself, but as my Father has taught Me, I speak these things."

v58 "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am"

In John 8:24 the Lord gives a solemn warning; anyone who does not believe that the Lord Jesus is this very God, the I Am, will die in his sins.

Thanks
Drake

Also, the "I am" in verse 24 could easily be referencing to verse 12, where Jesus says "I am [eimi] the light of the world....."

He makes a claim, they doubt His claim and challenge it, and He then circles back in verse 24 to restate that unless they believe that "I am [the light of the world]" they will die in their sins. Jesus doesn't say "unless you believe that I am Jehovah" or "believe that I am God" or "the Father". Unless you believe that I am? I am what? The light of the world that He just stated He was.

Verse 28 doesn't make sense that Jesus is claiming to be Jehovah God by using the phrase "I am" because in the very next phrase He says "...I do nothing on My own..."

You're saying that Jesus is claiming outright to be Jehovah God, the Most High, the one True God from whom everything came......but He does nothing on His own? Uhhh.......

[Ohio]

BibleBeliever said it best: "A text without a context is a pretext."

Never is this so true as with the Greek word "eimi" translated literally as "I am" in John chapters 8 and 9.

John 8.57-58 "The Jews then said to Jesus, you are not yet 50 yo, and you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

John 9.8-9 "The neighbors therefore, and those who previously saw him as a beggar, said, is this not the one who used to sit and beg? Some said, It is he: others said, No, but he is like him. He said, I am."

The actual text within the contexts here tells us everything. In both situations here, the responders were asked very different questions.

The blind man said "eimi" to the question whether he was the blind beggar at the pool of Siloam. He said "I am."

Jesus, however, did not answer the question, "have you seen Abraham?" with, "yes, of course, I visited Abraham to announce the birth of Isaac," (Gen 18) rather He replied simply "I am." This absolutely shocked the Jews. They knew exactly what He meant. Jesus identified Himself with Moses at the burning bush in the wilderness. The Jews then immediately tried to stone Jesus for saying this.

"A text without a context is a pretext." Therefore, the same text in a different context yields a totally unique meaning and significance.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

BibleBeliever said it best: "A text without a context is a pretext."

Never is this so true as with the Greek word "eimi" translated literally as "I am" in John chapters 8 and 9.

John 8.57-58 "The Jews then said to Jesus, you are not yet 50 yo, and you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

John 9.8-9 "The neighbors therefore, and those who previously saw him as a beggar, said, is this not the one who used to sit and beg? Some said, It is he: others said, No, but he is like him. He said, I am."

The actual text within the contexts here tells us everything. In both situations here, the responders were asked very different questions.

The blind man said "eimi" to the question whether he was the blind beggar at the pool of Siloam. He said "I am."

Jesus, however, did not answer the question, "have you seen Abraham?" with, "yes, of course, I visited Abraham to announce the birth of Isaac," (Gen 18) rather He replied simply "I am." This absolutely shocked the Jews. They knew exactly what He meant. Jesus identified Himself with Moses at the burning bush in the wilderness. The Jews then immediately tried to stone Jesus for saying this.

"A text without a context is a pretext." Therefore, the same text in a different context yields a totally unique meaning and significance.

I think you are saying "they knew exactly what He meant" to mean "they thought He claimed to be God", am I correct in understanding you? If I'm not reading accurately, please correct me.

That was their thought, as shown in John 10. But that was their wrong thought. They told Him they were stoning Him because He claimed to be God, and He responded that He stated He is the Son of God.

I do understand the link to Abraham and I AM, but Jesus stated explicitly two chapters later that His claim was to the Son of God, not to God.

Jesus isn't saying here that He was the God who told Abraham that His name is "I AM". Jesus is saying that before Abraham even existed, Jesus existed. And that's supported by other Scripture - God created everything through Jesus, so Jesus existed before creation.....which includes before Abraham.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I think you are saying "they knew exactly what He meant" to mean "they thought He claimed to be God", am I correct in understanding you? If I'm not reading accurately, please correct me.

That was their thought, as shown in John 10. But that was their wrong thought. They told Him they were stoning Him because He claimed to be God, and He responded that He stated He is the Son of God.

I do understand the link to Abraham and I AM, but Jesus stated explicitly two chapters later that His claim was to the Son of God, not to God.

Jesus isn't saying here that He was the God who told Abraham that His name is "I AM". Jesus is saying that before Abraham even existed, Jesus existed. And that's supported by other Scripture - God created everything through Jesus, so Jesus existed before creation.....which includes before Abraham.

Note that Jesus did not answer the Jews, "Yep I've seen Abraham," or "Of course I'm older than Abraham." Jesus responded very strangely, I believe, to make a striking statement. How could Abraham have "exulted to see My day, then saw it and rejoiced?" This was not the first time Jesus completely shocked and baffled the Jewish leaders in an attempt to make them reconsider their false conceptions.

I believe Jesus' answer was two-fold. First that He existed before Abraham. Second that He appeared to Moses in the burning bush as the "I am." Did that mean He claimed to be God? It was quite shocking to these Jews that Jesus identified with both Abraham and Moses. Later on Jesus also identified Himself with David, as both His son and His Lord.

And I also have a question. It seems many assume that references to Yahweh/Jehovah are to God the Father. But is that really so? Is Yahweh / Jehovah the son of God?

My conclusion is that God is knowable to us. In fact, that is part of the New Covenant. Yet, God is not understandable. The "theology of God" just does not exist in the Bible as we all wish it would. That's why people loved the creeds. Knowing a creed about God fools us into thinking that we can understand God. I have learned to believe each and every verse about God whether I understand them or not.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Drake

The answer is Yes! Jesus is Jehovah. Jehovah means I Am. I Am that I Am.
Exodus 3:14-15
"And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. And He said Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you. And God also said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the children, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is My memorial from generation to generation."
Jesus said He was the I Am.... three times in John 8. John 8:24, 28, 58
John 8:24 "Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
v28 "Jesus therefore said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am, and that I do nothing from Myself, but as my Father has taught Me, I speak these things."
v58 "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am"
In John 8:24 the Lord gives a solemn warning; anyone who does not believe that the Lord Jesus is this very God, the I Am, will die in his sins.

Hi, Drake,
Thanks.

Firstly, I apologize for I asked an ambiguous question.
When I asked this question, I meant the names, and your answer referred to God.
Is Jehovah Jesus? Yes, when referring to God himself. But as referring to the name, Jehovah is the name of God the Father, and Jesus is the name of God the Son.
I hope you understand my intention. Making the statement or question clear at the beginning to avoid confusion.

Brother Lee might be a little proud of his high-peak truth, but he didn't realize the consequence. In my locality, most saints---attending various meetings and training, don't know about the fundamentals, about the Gospel, about the meaning of "salvation by faith alone", and etc. Why? Because they are trained to repeat Br. Lee's high-peak truth.

Have you ever wondered why Brother Lee wouldn't send young people and saints to training or seminaries outside of LR? Besides the "poor, poor Christianity," there has to be reasons.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

.
When I asked this question, I meant the names, and your answer referred to God.
Is Jehovah Jesus? Yes, when referring to God himself. But as referring to the name, Jehovah is the name of God the Father, and Jesus is the name of God the Son.
I hope you understand my intention. Making the statement or question clear at the beginning to avoid confusion. "

Hi Bible-believer,

I have been considering your clarification since you wrote it. Upon further review of the names of God in both the Old and New Testament, I cannot find compelling evidence that Jehovah, a name of God used over 7000 times in the Old Testament, nor any of its ten derivatives (e.g. Jehovah-ro'i - Jehovah is my Shepherd; Jehovah-tsidqenu - Jehovah my Righteousness; etc.) refers only to God the Father.

What is your scriptural-based rationale for holding this point of view?

Thanks,
Drake