Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Drake

[
John 1: 14a: "And the Word became flesh..."

Allow me to use this example,
The process of baking a cake: Mix eggs, flour, yeast, and water well, and then bake it. You have a cake. It's no longer flour, eggs, yeast, and water.
Lee's "processed God" is similar to the process above. He mixed the Triune God with man to form a four-in-one god. When he did that, he changed the attributes of God. God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, but man is not. Lee's processed god is no longer the God in the Bible. To balance his radical statement, he said that God wants man to become "god" in life and in nature, but not in the Godhead. Without Godhead, it’s not God. So, what’s the point for him to come up with his terminology in the first place since he knows it's going to cause problems？ Why would he rather waste so much time expounding his "terminology?" Why wouldn't he save the precious time preaching the Gospel to win souls to God? I don't know. But I know why Lucifer falls. “Wise in his own conceit.”

You are stuck with Lee’s terminology inextricably. I wonder if you read the verses I shared with you.
John 1:1, In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1Tim.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You asked me how to explain “John 1: 14a:”

Read through the verses:
“In the beginning was the Word… and the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh,” that is "the mystery of godliness": "God was manifest in the flesh…”.
It's not "PROCESS".

I have no opinion of Brother Lee; however, I am against Brother Lee's teachings become the focus of LR.

Nobody compares verses with verses anymore (I don't know your locality, but mine is.) Lee's explanation, remarks, and writings become the only standard. We can't "freely" share what we learn from reading and studying the Bible.
We can't say the seventh trumpet is not the trump of God because Br. Lee said it is. We can't say when a saint dies, his soul is with the Lord in heaven, for Br. Lee said it's not... We are not allowed to say anything against Lee's teachings or we are accused of "ambitious", "dividing the Body". We are facing a "my way or the high way" monarchy.

I asked, “Is the processed, four-in-one God a sound doctrine?” And my answer is NO. I will not participate in this discussion from now on since I know the answer for sure.

2Tim. 4:3 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;”

Btw, You didn’t answer my question, “Is Jehovah Jesus?” It might be the question is too simple and doesn't deserve an answer, or it’s too difficult that you don't have an answer. Look up your Recovery Version Bible, or the Life-study of John to see what Br. Lee said. The remark he wrote in the book of John chapter 1 is probably from Gerhard Kittel. He had no clue. He didn't even know 1John 5:7.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Btw, You didn’t answer my question, “Is Jehovah Jesus?” It might be the question is too simple and doesn't deserve an answer, or it’s too difficult that you don't have an answer.

Sorry Bible-believer, I overlooked this question. Thanks for calling my attention to it.

The answer is Yes! Jesus is Jehovah.

Jehovah means I Am. I Am that I Am.
Exodus 3:14-15
"And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. And He said Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you. And God also said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the children, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is My memorial from generation to generation."

Jesus said He was the I Am.... three times in John 8. John 8:24, 28, 58

John 8:24 "Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

v28 "Jesus therefore said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am, and that I do nothing from Myself, but as my Father has taught Me, I speak these things."

v58 "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am"

In John 8:24 the Lord gives a solemn warning; anyone who does not believe that the Lord Jesus is this very God, the I Am, will die in his sins.

Thanks
Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Sorry Bible-believer, I overlooked this question. Thanks for calling my attention to it.

The answer is Yes! Jesus is Jehovah.

Jehovah means I Am. I Am that I Am.
Exodus 3:14-15
"And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. And He said Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you. And God also said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the children, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is My memorial from generation to generation."

Jesus said He was the I Am.... three times in John 8. John 8:24, 28, 58

John 8:24 "Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

v28 "Jesus therefore said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am, and that I do nothing from Myself, but as my Father has taught Me, I speak these things."

v58 "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am"

In John 8:24 the Lord gives a solemn warning; anyone who does not believe that the Lord Jesus is this very God, the I Am, will die in his sins.

Thanks
Drake

Drake,

Regarding the "I am" connection......the blind beggar in the next chapter, John 9, said the same thing:

John 9:9
Some were saying, "It is he," but others, were saying, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, "I am he."

It's the same Greek word - eimi.

Was the blind beggar claiming to be Jehovah? Nope. "I am" or "I am he" or "I am the one" is a legitimate and common phrase in any language. It's presence does not mean a God-claim unless the context is there for it.

In fact, in that same chapter, Jesus says explicitly He and the Father are as two completely different people.

John 8:17-18
17 Even in your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid.
18 I am One who testifies about Myself, and the Father, who sent Me, also testifies about Me.”

He tells them that He "tells [them] the truth that [He] heard from God." He doesn't say "I tell you the truth because I am God."

You bring up verse 58, which says:

“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

...and say that's Jesus claiming to be Jehovah, for which they picked up stones to stone Him. But don't forget, two chapters later in chapter 10, Jesus asks the Jews explicitly what they are stoning Him for. They respond because He declares Himself to be God. But Jesus responds not affirming their claim that He declares Himself to be God, but correcting them that He states that He is God's SON.

John 10:32-36
32 But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”
33 “We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”
34 Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’?
35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—
36 then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Sorry Bible-believer, I overlooked this question. Thanks for calling my attention to it.

The answer is Yes! Jesus is Jehovah.

Jehovah means I Am. I Am that I Am.
Exodus 3:14-15
"And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. And He said Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you. And God also said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the children, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is My memorial from generation to generation."

Jesus said He was the I Am.... three times in John 8. John 8:24, 28, 58

John 8:24 "Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

v28 "Jesus therefore said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am, and that I do nothing from Myself, but as my Father has taught Me, I speak these things."

v58 "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am"

In John 8:24 the Lord gives a solemn warning; anyone who does not believe that the Lord Jesus is this very God, the I Am, will die in his sins.

Thanks
Drake

Also, the "I am" in verse 24 could easily be referencing to verse 12, where Jesus says "I am [eimi] the light of the world....."

He makes a claim, they doubt His claim and challenge it, and He then circles back in verse 24 to restate that unless they believe that "I am [the light of the world]" they will die in their sins. Jesus doesn't say "unless you believe that I am Jehovah" or "believe that I am God" or "the Father". Unless you believe that I am? I am what? The light of the world that He just stated He was.

Verse 28 doesn't make sense that Jesus is claiming to be Jehovah God by using the phrase "I am" because in the very next phrase He says "...I do nothing on My own..."

You're saying that Jesus is claiming outright to be Jehovah God, the Most High, the one True God from whom everything came......but He does nothing on His own? Uhhh.......

[Ohio]

BibleBeliever said it best: "A text without a context is a pretext."

Never is this so true as with the Greek word "eimi" translated literally as "I am" in John chapters 8 and 9.

John 8.57-58 "The Jews then said to Jesus, you are not yet 50 yo, and you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

John 9.8-9 "The neighbors therefore, and those who previously saw him as a beggar, said, is this not the one who used to sit and beg? Some said, It is he: others said, No, but he is like him. He said, I am."

The actual text within the contexts here tells us everything. In both situations here, the responders were asked very different questions.

The blind man said "eimi" to the question whether he was the blind beggar at the pool of Siloam. He said "I am."

Jesus, however, did not answer the question, "have you seen Abraham?" with, "yes, of course, I visited Abraham to announce the birth of Isaac," (Gen 18) rather He replied simply "I am." This absolutely shocked the Jews. They knew exactly what He meant. Jesus identified Himself with Moses at the burning bush in the wilderness. The Jews then immediately tried to stone Jesus for saying this.

"A text without a context is a pretext." Therefore, the same text in a different context yields a totally unique meaning and significance.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

BibleBeliever said it best: "A text without a context is a pretext."

Never is this so true as with the Greek word "eimi" translated literally as "I am" in John chapters 8 and 9.

John 8.57-58 "The Jews then said to Jesus, you are not yet 50 yo, and you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

John 9.8-9 "The neighbors therefore, and those who previously saw him as a beggar, said, is this not the one who used to sit and beg? Some said, It is he: others said, No, but he is like him. He said, I am."

The actual text within the contexts here tells us everything. In both situations here, the responders were asked very different questions.

The blind man said "eimi" to the question whether he was the blind beggar at the pool of Siloam. He said "I am."

Jesus, however, did not answer the question, "have you seen Abraham?" with, "yes, of course, I visited Abraham to announce the birth of Isaac," (Gen 18) rather He replied simply "I am." This absolutely shocked the Jews. They knew exactly what He meant. Jesus identified Himself with Moses at the burning bush in the wilderness. The Jews then immediately tried to stone Jesus for saying this.

"A text without a context is a pretext." Therefore, the same text in a different context yields a totally unique meaning and significance.

I think you are saying "they knew exactly what He meant" to mean "they thought He claimed to be God", am I correct in understanding you? If I'm not reading accurately, please correct me.

That was their thought, as shown in John 10. But that was their wrong thought. They told Him they were stoning Him because He claimed to be God, and He responded that He stated He is the Son of God.

I do understand the link to Abraham and I AM, but Jesus stated explicitly two chapters later that His claim was to the Son of God, not to God.

Jesus isn't saying here that He was the God who told Abraham that His name is "I AM". Jesus is saying that before Abraham even existed, Jesus existed. And that's supported by other Scripture - God created everything through Jesus, so Jesus existed before creation.....which includes before Abraham.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I think you are saying "they knew exactly what He meant" to mean "they thought He claimed to be God", am I correct in understanding you? If I'm not reading accurately, please correct me.

That was their thought, as shown in John 10. But that was their wrong thought. They told Him they were stoning Him because He claimed to be God, and He responded that He stated He is the Son of God.

I do understand the link to Abraham and I AM, but Jesus stated explicitly two chapters later that His claim was to the Son of God, not to God.

Jesus isn't saying here that He was the God who told Abraham that His name is "I AM". Jesus is saying that before Abraham even existed, Jesus existed. And that's supported by other Scripture - God created everything through Jesus, so Jesus existed before creation.....which includes before Abraham.

Note that Jesus did not answer the Jews, "Yep I've seen Abraham," or "Of course I'm older than Abraham." Jesus responded very strangely, I believe, to make a striking statement. How could Abraham have "exulted to see My day, then saw it and rejoiced?" This was not the first time Jesus completely shocked and baffled the Jewish leaders in an attempt to make them reconsider their false conceptions.

I believe Jesus' answer was two-fold. First that He existed before Abraham. Second that He appeared to Moses in the burning bush as the "I am." Did that mean He claimed to be God? It was quite shocking to these Jews that Jesus identified with both Abraham and Moses. Later on Jesus also identified Himself with David, as both His son and His Lord.

And I also have a question. It seems many assume that references to Yahweh/Jehovah are to God the Father. But is that really so? Is Yahweh / Jehovah the son of God?

My conclusion is that God is knowable to us. In fact, that is part of the New Covenant. Yet, God is not understandable. The "theology of God" just does not exist in the Bible as we all wish it would. That's why people loved the creeds. Knowing a creed about God fools us into thinking that we can understand God. I have learned to believe each and every verse about God whether I understand them or not.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Drake

The answer is Yes! Jesus is Jehovah. Jehovah means I Am. I Am that I Am.
Exodus 3:14-15
"And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. And He said Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you. And God also said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the children, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is My memorial from generation to generation."
Jesus said He was the I Am.... three times in John 8. John 8:24, 28, 58
John 8:24 "Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
v28 "Jesus therefore said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am, and that I do nothing from Myself, but as my Father has taught Me, I speak these things."
v58 "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am"
In John 8:24 the Lord gives a solemn warning; anyone who does not believe that the Lord Jesus is this very God, the I Am, will die in his sins.

Hi, Drake,
Thanks.

Firstly, I apologize for I asked an ambiguous question.
When I asked this question, I meant the names, and your answer referred to God.
Is Jehovah Jesus? Yes, when referring to God himself. But as referring to the name, Jehovah is the name of God the Father, and Jesus is the name of God the Son.
I hope you understand my intention. Making the statement or question clear at the beginning to avoid confusion.

Brother Lee might be a little proud of his high-peak truth, but he didn't realize the consequence. In my locality, most saints---attending various meetings and training, don't know about the fundamentals, about the Gospel, about the meaning of "salvation by faith alone", and etc. Why? Because they are trained to repeat Br. Lee's high-peak truth.

Have you ever wondered why Brother Lee wouldn't send young people and saints to training or seminaries outside of LR? Besides the "poor, poor Christianity," there has to be reasons.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

.
When I asked this question, I meant the names, and your answer referred to God.
Is Jehovah Jesus? Yes, when referring to God himself. But as referring to the name, Jehovah is the name of God the Father, and Jesus is the name of God the Son.
I hope you understand my intention. Making the statement or question clear at the beginning to avoid confusion. "

Hi Bible-believer,

I have been considering your clarification since you wrote it. Upon further review of the names of God in both the Old and New Testament, I cannot find compelling evidence that Jehovah, a name of God used over 7000 times in the Old Testament, nor any of its ten derivatives (e.g. Jehovah-ro'i - Jehovah is my Shepherd; Jehovah-tsidqenu - Jehovah my Righteousness; etc.) refers only to God the Father.

What is your scriptural-based rationale for holding this point of view?

Thanks,
Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Lee's "processed God" is similar to the process above. He mixed the Triune God with man to form a four-in-one god. When he did that, he changed the attributes of God. God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, but man is not. Lee's processed god is no longer the God in the Bible.

Bible-believer,

No.

Brother Lee never taught that and if you think he did then please provide the exact quote.

Omnipresence, Omniscience, and Omnipotence are attributes of God that are NOT communicable. God's life and nature are communicable in the same way that the life and nature of your father is communicated to you. You are a son but you do not become your father and his fatherhood.

Brother Lee made this distinction clear. Anyone who actually reads and represents what he actually said would be clear, fair, and honest on this point. For example:

"The Body of Christ is composed first of the redeemed ones, who were born by the Spirit to be the children of the Father. They are the God-men, and they are the very Body of Christ, the framework. Built within them are the Spirit, the Lord, and the Father. All three of the Divine Trinity have been built into the redeemed, regenerated believers. So there is such a building, such a structure, constituted with humanity and divinity in the Divine Trinity. Man, the Spirit, the Lord, and the Father are built together. This is not just three-in-one. This is four-in-one. God became a man so that we, His redeemed, might become God. With Him there is the Godhead. But regardless of how much divine life and divine nature we have to be the same as God, we do not have the Godhead.

(Practical Points concerning Blending, Chapter 3)

The "omni" attributes are those of the Godhead. We do not share in those ....ever. Those are unchangeable and incommunicable and belong to God in His Godhead alone.

Drake

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

Bible-believer,

No.

Brother Lee never taught that and if you think he did then please provide the exact quote.

Omnipresence, Omniscience, and Omnipotence are attributes of God that are NOT communicable. God's life and nature are communicable in the same way that the life and nature of your father is communicated to you. You are a son but you do not become your father and his fatherhood.

Brother Lee made this distinction clear. Anyone who actually reads and represents what he actually said would be clear, fair, and honest on this point. For example:

"The Body of Christ is composed first of the redeemed ones, who were born by the Spirit to be the children of the Father. They are the God-men, and they are the very Body of Christ, the framework. Built within them are the Spirit, the Lord, and the Father. All three of the Divine Trinity have been built into the redeemed, regenerated believers. So there is such a building, such a structure, constituted with humanity and divinity in the Divine Trinity. Man, the Spirit, the Lord, and the Father are built together. This is not just three-in-one. This is four-in-one. God became a man so that we, His redeemed, might become God. With Him there is the Godhead. But regardless of how much divine life and divine nature we have to be the same as God, we do not have the Godhead.

(Practical Points concerning Blending, Chapter 3)

The "omni" attributes are those of the Godhead. We do not share in those ....ever. Those are unchangeable and incommunicable and belong to God in His Godhead alone.

Drake

Wow! Thanks Drake.

Of course Lee didn’t teach “that”. Bible-believer wasn’t quoting Lee’s teaching. His was talking about the results of Lee’s teaching, or the implications of his teaching.

However, I will say, the text you provided is a real whopper….more heretical even than what Bible-believer pointed out. Thanks.

But I’m curious…Practical Points concerning Blending, Chapter 3…is this a book/message by Witness Lee? It doesn’t sound like Lee. To me, it sounds like a paraphrase by yet another anonymous LSM author. So. Are you quoting Lee or someone else?

The reason I ask, I was in Irving Tx when Lee was speaking in person when he dropped his “man becomes God” bombshell. When the message came out in print a few weeks later, the god-man stuff wasn’t even there. I wanted what I heard IN PRINT, but LSM strangely didn’t print it. That’s just wrong.

Nell