Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?

[UntoHim]

aron and others.

Our friend thoughtfully and intentionally entitled the thread "Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?" And then ended with "Please help me on this matter". This warrants much, much more than a simple "no". After all, the "no" was a given. Our friend is looking for help. I took a few minutes and referred to the posts that I feel have headed us and him in the right direction. How bout we finish up on the main question before we head off into some of the other related questions?

Witness Lee got the doctrine of the Trinity wrong. He confused the Persons of the Trinity. He quite literally "confounded the Persons and divided the substance" The Trinity is one of the core, essential items of the Christian faith. Aside from the deity of Christ, and the death, resurrection and bodily ascension of Christ, nothing touches more upon the core and essential heart of the Christian faith, and the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
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[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

aron and others.

Our friend thoughtfully and intentionally entitled the thread "Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?" And then ended with "Please help me on this matter". This warrants much, much more than a simple "no". After all, the "no" was a given. Our friend is looking for help. I took a few minutes and referred to the posts that I feel have headed us and him in the right direction. How bout we finish up on the main question before we head off into some of the other related questions?-

Originally Posted by Kerry Robichaux

Because the believers are incorporated into Him, He as the heavenly ladder serves as the personal bridge to the Triune God, incorporating in Himself the Divine Trinity and the believers. This is the very center of the universe, for in Him God and man are joined together, and the ministrations of God are focused on Him as this heavenly bridge. Within Himself He incorporates the unique enterprise of God’s economy, that is, the Triune God operating through Him by the Spirit in the believers for the manifestation and expression of God the Father on the earth…In this way the believers become the reproduction, expansion, and physical continuation of the incarnate and incorporate Son of God and indeed the organism of the Triune God Himself. The Johannine Jesus as Bridge and Model for the Incorporation of the Believers into the Divine Trinity (2) - Kerry Robichaux

If you look at the verse referenced by Kerry Robichaux, in John 1:51, Jesus said, "You will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man." Elsewhere as I've shown in post #48, the other 3 gospels have Jesus and the Father and the holy angels revealed together in glory. Nothing in either section about the Holy Spirit, capital 'H' capital 'S'. You have the Father, the Son, the ministering spirits plural. Now, elsewhere there is "one Spirit" a la Paul to the Ephesians. But should you ignore John, Jesus, and the synoptic gospels (and the book of Revelation)? Everything must be factored in.

So Kerry Robichaux is imposing an abstract motif, the ladder/bridge, and creating his own meaning, and - importantly - ignoring what the actual words of the scripture say. An abstraction is used to parse scripture, what is noted and what is ignored. And perhaps this is what our poster Bible Believer can say in his LSM-run Bible study group. But I personally believe that if you get into fencing matches with abstractions, you'll never win. You have entered enemy territory. They're built for this - they love this stuff. I think that pursuing this line with LSM adherents is playing in their court. They love to shuffle words around. 'Trinity' versus 'Triune', and 'essences' versus 'energies', and 'Godhead' versus 'persons'. Its all a shell game with words, it's what they do for a living. If you want to arm Bible Believer for that, be my guest.

But then, where is the love? No, then it's all about 'truth' which is really what definitions of words are used, which scriptures are 'crucial' and which are deliberately ignored. Who wants to play that game?

[UntoHim]

My brother aron, I'm sorry you would think anyone here is playing games. I'm also sorry you would think that "it's all about truth" to the exclusion of love. I'm not sure how much more plainly I can state this - this thread is about answering a question. It's an important question. It's a crucial question. It's not a game.

Witness Lee taught that God was "processed". This is not the truth. It is not the truth according to the Bible. It is not the truth according to things taught by the first generation of apostles and teachers, nor is it the truth as taught by any of the orthodox Christians in the following generations up to this very day. It is not a sound doctrine.

The church has not been mingled or incorporated into the Godhead, creating some monstrous, amalgamated "Four-in-One" God. This is not a sound doctrine. In fact, rather than being a sound, healthy doctrine, it could more appropriately be placed in the category of a "doctrine of demons" that Paul warned Timothy about (1 Tim 4:1)

Finally, I would note that at the close of the age of the New Testament, the apostle John, known as "the apostle of love", greatly emphasized "truth". To see that the saints were walking in truth gave him the greatest joy. "I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth."(2 John 4:4) You see, the apostle knew that love was not enough to save the children from the doctrines of demons - they needed truth. How much more today are we latter day followers of the Lord Jesus in need of truth? How much more are those of us affected by the false teachings of Witness Lee in need of truth?
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[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

My brother aron...
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I think aron's remarks are pointed at LSM, not at the thread.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I think aron's remarks are pointed at LSM, not at the thread.

UntoHim doesn't think he's playing games. And I get his protest - arguably, he's not. But my point is that anyone who goes onto their (LSM, DCP) ground and tries to debate "trinity" versus "four-in-one God" is playing their game on their rules. And that is a game, a vain exercise.

Who on this forum has gone to an LSM Bible study or Facebook page or chat forum and corrected them, or even made any headway at all, gotten any acknowledgement that the "four-in-one God" idea may possibly need, um, some adjustment? If anyone has, I stand down. Otherwise I rest my case.

Now, on this forum it's different. But on this forum who's defending the "four-in-one God"? If none, then pursuing the matter will soon become an exercise in posturing.

Has anyone gone to Kerry Robichaux' Bible study, or with anyone promoting his writing, and gotten admission that there's any meaningful content in John 1:51 past a "ladder", "an uplifted standing staircase", or an "incorporated Triune God"? If so, I stand down. Otherwise I rest my case.

I'm not saying anyone on this forum is playing games. I'm saying that if you engage them with parsing's of words, that's what they do for a living. You're in their turf, on their terms. I don't see that as anything but an exercise in fruitlessness. But I may be wrong. I'm just a person with an opinion. Others may think differently and that's okay, too. Sorry if my stridency is off-putting... I really use it for my own protection, because I got caught, once. And I don't want to again.

[UntoHim]

Thanks aron for you thoughtful post. As always, your points are well taken.

I still think it's important and worthwhile (for those of us who think it's important and worthwhile) to try our best to answer the question at hand. For those of you who think it's an exercise in posturing, or fruitlessness or that we are merely engaging LSM on their turf, I would ask you to give others the grace and latitude to assist Bible-believer and anyone else concerned, by answering the question at hand by speaking the truth in love as best we know it.

In any event, and as always, may the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, guard our hearts and our minds in Christ Jesus.
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I still think it's important and worthwhile (for those of us who think it's important and worthwhile) to try out best to answer the question at hand.
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OK, here has long been my response ...

Whether it be the "4-in-1 God" or any other of their exclusive and esoteric doctrines, I respond simply that it's not in the Bible. This is why Bible-believer is/was troubled in the first place. There is no verse that says "4-in-1 God". Both Jesus and the Apostles had ample opportunity to say things like this, of such great import, but they did not. Why not?

Why should we focus on that which is not in the Bible and miss that which is? Isn't the Bible enough? Should we not stick to our common faith?

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

.. at the close of the age of the New Testament, the apostle John, known as "the apostle of love", greatly emphasized "truth". To see that the saints were walking in truth gave him the greatest joy. "I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth."(2 John 4:4)

I concede to the primacy of truth, in the sense of "widely understood and agreed-upon events, facts, or phenomenon". But even in Jesus' day, the Twelve didn't have a good handle on it. The gospels repeat this theme, with, "They were amazed and afraid, and wondered what was going on." The NT isn't always explicitly detailed - it says that Jesus taught in parables, then explained privately. We don't know the contents of many long conversations that Paul had with Timothy (for example), but only two epistles and some verses in Acts. We may read deeply into the texts, and arguably should (and I do), but to argue over our readings as "truths" is itself the grip of error.

And to do this with ones like DCP who want to argue (imo) plays right to their hands and stumbles the weak and the wavering. If an unbeliever comes by, and sees us hotly debating the "trinity" versus the "quadnity" - I just made that last word up - will they go, "Oh wow, God really loves me!"? I doubt it. They'll be like, "Okay.. eh.. not for me" and keep going.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Because the believers are incorporated into Him, He as the heavenly ladder serves as the personal bridge to the Triune God, incorporating in Himself the Divine Trinity and the believers. ~Kerry Robichaux

Back to Ohio's point about sticking to what's in the scriptural text. John 1:51 is probably the key verse here, that Robichaux uses to jump-start his four-in-one theory. He uses the word 'incorporated' and then the ladder motif is used to extend this incorporation into the believers. But what does Jesus actually say? He says, "You will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man." This of course references the famous OT vision of "Jacob's ladder".

But what do we really see in these words: incorporation? First, Jesus says "an open heaven". I argue that this implies obedience. "Because I obey my Father, I always see what he is doing" and conversely "Because I always see (know/understand) my Father's will in scripture, I can always obey him." Seeing necessitates obedience, and obedience follows seeing (Pharisees were called blind because they didn't obey scriptures, and they didn't obey because they couldn't see).

The scriptures foretold the coming Messiah, and Jesus as this Messiah (aka Christ, Son of David, King of Israel, Saviour of the World, Ruler of the kings of the earth) lived completely and unequivocally within prophetic strictures. If a prophet wrote it, Jesus lived it, period. He never lived outside the Father's will for him, outlined in what we today call the OT. How many times did Jesus say, "that the scripture must be fulfilled" or "as it is written" (why I cited James' idea of the "perfect law of freedom"; see also Psa 119:32). That's the Son of Man on earth, living and walking and acting under the open heaven. We see him, and recognize this, and see in him our own pathway to freedom. When he obeyed, we then believed the scriptures' fulfillments, and were ourselves set free from sin, death, self, hell. Jesus is the Way.

Now, as to "angels ascending and descending" upon the Son of Man, it seems simple - Jesus and the writers of the NT believed in angelic mediation, that angels carried prayers and messages to and from God (see, e.g., Rev 8:2-6; cf Matt 4:11; Acts 12:15; John 5:4) None of this obviates the "One Spirit" or the unique "Holy Spirit" but John 1:51 isn't bringing us to the Trinity or the Quadnity. It's rather presenting us with a view of a unique Man on earth who was fully obedient to the Father in heaven. Through our faith we're "incorporated" into Jesus, but that incorporation is wholly predicated on our obedience to his will, just as his to the Father. "Even as I obey the Father's commandments, so also you should obey my commands". Pretty straightforward: when Jesus teaches, "Even as 'X', so also 'Y'", don't you think we disciples should pay attention?

I don't deny, reject, or ignore the doctrine of the Trinity as an established historical Christian doctrinal exposition. But we should never allow ourselves to be carried away from the actual text at hand. Where the Bible is explicit, we say, "Amen". Which is why I continually cite the resurrection of Jesus on the third day: every NT witness includes this. Where we're reading into gaps, or pasting together disparate sections, caution and humility are our best guides.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

So Kerry Robichaux is imposing an abstract motif, the ladder/bridge, and creating his own meaning, and - importantly - ignoring what the actual words of the scripture say. An abstraction is used to parse scripture, what is noted and what is ignored. And perhaps this is what our poster Bible Believer can say in his LSM-run Bible study group. But I personally believe that if you get into fencing matches with abstractions, you'll never win. You have entered enemy territory. They're built for this - they love this stuff. I think that pursuing this line with LSM adherents is playing in their court. They love to shuffle words around. 'Trinity' versus 'Triune', and 'essences' versus 'energies', and 'Godhead' versus 'persons'. Its all a shell game with words, it's what they do for a living. If you want to arm Bible Believer for that, be my guest.

Originally Posted by aron

I'm saying that if you engage them with parsing's of words, that's what they do for a living. You're in their turf, on their terms. I don't see that as anything but an exercise in fruitlessness.

Aron, totally agree with you. Like the Plymouth Brethren tract-wars of old, LSM loves this stuff. They are seasoned wordsmiths. They invite you in and then fight the fight they love to fight. I lived this for 30 years, and studied it for another 15 years. Even God is tired of their word games.

This is why I always bring it back to LSM's character, to their unrighteousness, to their rotten behavior. The old LSMers on this forum like Bilbo, Cassidy, and Drake hated it. They claimed I was like a broken record, stuck on Philip Lee. I could care less.

Jesus in the Gospels rebuked the Jews for their hypocrisy. Read Paul's many epistles. He fought this same battle for decades. He often used the character standard too. The Jews hated him for that. Paul even got punched in the mouth for saying that he "conducted himself in all good conscience." (Acts 23.1-2)