New LSM Website: ministrypropagation.org

[Koinonia]

In line with LSM's latest push to get people to buy more of their books, they have put out a new website: "The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth."

The contact names given are Michio Miyake, Jim Miller, Bill Lawson, Steve Watts, and Samuel Liu. These are the same brothers that Benson Phillips, Andrew Yu, and Ray Graver commissioned to the LCs as being sent out to promote the reading of LSM ministry books.

An examination of this website will show just how far off the LC has gone. I hope that LC lurkers will take this seriously. LC members, I can relate to you. I grew up in the LC and gave my life to the LC. I left the LC because of my spiritual seeking. The kind of blatant commercialization and manipulation seen in this effort are absolutely astounding. Reminiscent of the Jehovah's Witnesses or Exclusive Brethren.

Two of the worst pages I came across are:

• "Three Keys for an Active/Healthy Publication Service: People, Products, Programs"
• "How to Set Up a Healthy Book Service"

Please take a look and discuss here. It is so off-putting to me that it is hard for me even to analyze it.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

In line with LSM's latest push to get people to buy more of their books, they have put out a new website: "The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth."

The contact names given are Michio Miyake, Jim Miller, Bill Lawson, Steve Watts, and Samuel Liu. These are the same brothers that Benson Phillips, Andrew Yu, and Ray Graver commissioned to the LCs as being sent out to promote the reading of LSM ministry books.

An examination of this website will show just how far off the LC has gone. I hope that LC lurkers will take this seriously. LC members, I can relate to you. I grew up in the LC and gave my life to the LC. I left the LC because of my spiritual seeking. The kind of blatant commercialization and manipulation seen in this effort are absolutely astounding. Reminiscent of the Jehovah's Witnesses or Exclusive Brethren.

Two of the worst pages I came across are:

• "Three Keys for an Active/Healthy Publication Service: People, Products, Programs"
• "How to Set Up a Healthy Book Service"

Please take a look and discuss here. It is so off-putting to me that it is hard for me even to analyze it.

From the first link i found the name Christ mentioned zero times, Jesus mentioned zero times; but ministry mentioned 16 times, LSM 10 times, and Lee 2 times. from this I assume that Christ is not being promoted, but the ministry of LSM as started by Lee is the focus of this new move. Sad that none of the elders or blendeds see this; I guess they have been blinded.

[Freedom]

The pictures on the site are just plain bizarre. It reminds me of the Eastern Lightning website that I visited several days ago.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The pictures on the site are just plain bizarre. It reminds me of the Eastern Lightning website that I visited several days ago.

That's funny--I thought exactly the same thing.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Please take a look and discuss here. It is so off-putting to me that it is hard for me even to analyze it.

What is perhaps the most disturbing is the way that they equate their ministry books with "the truth." Upon that notion is seems they feel any amount of promotion is justified.

What they are doing here is blatantly obvious. It's a scheme to advertise, promote, and sell LSM products, using whatever means necessary. All the while LC members are made to feel deficient in their reading of LSM books, so as to subtly convince them to buy/read more. It disgusts me to see people manipulated like that. Those involved in this promotion should be ashamed of themselves.

[Koinonia]

I have been informed that this website was announced yesterday to all of the brothers attending the ITERO in Anaheim. The brothers listed on the website gave a special presentation about the website and LSM's new library/display-set promotion. I wonder how many people in that audience sit there inwardly bothered that they go to all of this trouble to hear a blatant marketing pitch.

[least]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

In line with LSM's latest push to get people to buy more of their books, they have put out a new website: "The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth."

-
Accurately it should be titled:
The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the LSM MOTA
-

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I have been informed that this website was announced yesterday to all of the brothers attending the ITERO in Anaheim. The brothers listed on the website gave a special presentation about the website and LSM's new library/display-set promotion. I wonder how many people in that audience sit there inwardly bothered that they go to all of this trouble to hear a blatant marketing pitch.

Good question.

In my experience, whenever there was a new promotion, it was not unheard of for there to be at least some amount of reluctance expressed by the local elders. Of course, they didn’t express any disagreement intentionally, it was more of a natural reaction. As would be expected, eventually they would find a way to get with the program and rationalize the new promotion.

With this latest gimmick to sell ministry books, I would guess that elders will be convinced of a supposed ‘need’ among those in the LC to read more “ministry material.” It seems, however, that no one would think to ask the question as to why selling books would correlate to getting people to read them. The market is already saturated with LSM material. People have every opportunity to buy books, but they don’t. That says it all.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I wonder how many people in that audience sit there inwardly bothered that they go to all of this trouble to hear a blatant marketing pitch.

Unfortunately many of these brothers have been conditioned to not be inwardly bothered, so long as the name of Witness Lee is attached to the "blatant marketing pitch". Just ask the saints that "lost their virginity" (and mucho dinero) investing their hard-earned money on this beauty:


Fast forward 40+ years...and now the Local Church brothers and sisters are being asked to invest their hard-earned money yet again on some more outdated, over-priced merchandise. I guess the Blended Brothers think their is another whole new crop of saints that won't mind "losing their virginity" (and mucho dinero)...so long as the name of Witness Lee is attached.
-

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Unfortunately many of these brothers have been conditioned to not be inwardly bothered, so long as the name of Witness Lee is attached to the "blatant marketing pitch". Just ask the saints that "lost their virginity" (and mucho dinero) investing their hard-earned money on this beauty:


Fast forward 40+ years...and now the Local Church brothers and sisters are being asked to invest their hard-earned money yet again on some more outdated, over-priced merchandise. I guess the Blended Brothers think their is another whole new crop of saints that won't mind "losing their virginity" (and mucho dinero)...so long as the name of Witness Lee is attached.
-

You’ve said it Unto. From Daystar, to Linko, to Standing Orders, the issue is never truth, but generating revenue. Why is it the only GLA localities that experienced lawsuits were those with real estate?
Now this! Don’t get me wrong I think the concept is long overdue, but the motive is very impure. I reflect back to my time in the late 90’s. Ever Lord’s Day meeting was capped off with a Standing Order promotion. I know many elders and coworkers may make 6 figure income or close to it, but not everyone has the luxury to invest in LSM publications. Some I knew just making rent or mortgage each month was a challenge. Do the coworkers really expect buying into publications is more essential than housing or food? Those really dedicated to the ministry would charge it on a card even if it means going further in debt.
My point instead of making it a case of revenue with the standing order, turn bookrooms into a library system. Of course there’s no money to be made there so that’s a bad idea even though there was a library system for audio tapes.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Unfortunately many of these brothers have been conditioned to not be inwardly bothered, so long as the name of Witness Lee is attached to the "blatant marketing pitch". Just ask the saints that "lost their virginity" (and mucho dinero) investing their hard-earned money on this beauty:

Fast forward 40+ years...and now the Local Church brothers and sisters are being asked to invest their hard-earned money yet again on some more outdated, over-priced merchandise. I guess the Blended Brothers think their is another whole new crop of saints that won't mind "losing their virginity" (and mucho dinero)...so long as the name of Witness Lee is attached.
-

But Bro UntoHim ... you just need to see the "vision."

[TLFisher]

Vision you say Ohio? Who's vision? As we know with eyesight, not everyone's eyesight is the same. So why does "vision" have to be uniform?

[Koinonia]

More LC/LSM bizarreness. Here is the new YouTube channel "Ministry Propagation" set up with the videos of the brothers' presentations during the recent ITERO.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

More LC/LSM bizarreness. Here is the new YouTube channel "Ministry Propagation" set up with the videos of the brothers' presentations during the recent ITERO.

https://youtu.be/9eiswZ0MSL8

[TLFisher]

Let's be honest. The local churches are ministry churches far more than they are local churches. Meeting and receiving is according to a ministry.
In order for one to meet regularly with these localities, they must have a vision for the ministry or else they're just not going to make it.
Someone who has a broader view of God's Word more than what LSM publishes will often be subjected to scrutiny.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Terry

Let's be honest. The local churches are ministry churches far more than they are local churches. Meeting and receiving is according to a ministry.
In order for one to meet regularly with these localities, they must have a vision for the ministry or else they're just not going to make it.
Someone who has a broader view of God's Word more than what LSM publishes will often be subjected to scrutiny.

I watch these videos and think--what happened to the LC?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Let's be honest. The local churches are ministry churches far more than they are local churches. Meeting and receiving is according to a ministry.
In order for one to meet regularly with these localities, they must have a vision for the ministry or else they're just not going to make it.
Someone who has a broader view of God's Word more than what LSM publishes will often be subjected to scrutiny.

One brother said, except for the HWFMR, no one is buying the other books.

Why do you think that is? Young people can access the ministry online. Older saints have bookshelves full of books. How do they know who is reading what?

It's so obvious that they care little for what their people are reading, nor their real spiritual health. They only care for book sales.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

One brother said, except for the HWFMR, no one is buying the other books.

Why do you think that is? Young people can access the ministry online. Older saints have bookshelves full of books. How do they know who is reading what?

It's so obvious that they care little for what their people are reading, nor their real spiritual health. They only care for book sales.

Hi all...

I just watched a couple of these videos... I found this one in particular contradictory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR3SHYWZiwg


Around the 5 minute mark the guy is exhorting the saints not to replace the Word with the reference materials. Towards the end around the 7 minute mark, he says parents should educate their children in 'the full knowledge of the truth'.. but it is my understanding many of the church kids are leaving not only the LSM but disconnecting with their families. Also.. how sad Lee did not follow his own 'teachings' on raising families properly.

Finally.. he starts off as I said around the 5 minute mark to read the bible and not replace it with the references but by the end he is emphasizing Lee's words to read the bible with the footnotes, lifestudies etc..

Well. we all know reading the bible in the LSM without footnotes, lifestudies, reference books by Nee & Lee in particular is impossible.

And is it not the case today that the LSMrs are not reading the bible but reading and 'praying' the revival booklets and footnotes at the meetings?



Tick-Tock....

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

.. it is my understanding many of the church kids are leaving not only the LSM but disconnecting with their families..

The core of Jesus' teachings centered around relationships, emerging from the Judaic ethos, namely piety within monotheism: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one" Deut 6:4 (NIV). Now, we're straitly charged to love God wholly, and love our neighbors. Do this and you fulfill the law and the prophets. See Matt 22:40; cf Gal 5:14; also see 1 John 4:20.

Against this, the de facto, operational 'god' of the Nee/Lee programme reveals itself: alignment with organizational leadership. Lee-ism has splintered, and one is asked which leadership group they follow: Dong-ite, or Chu-ite, or Blended? Based on this confession and commitment to obedience, all subsequent human relations are based.

Not surprising that many children raised in such an environment of isolationism and enforced estrangement will eventually recoil; they may not yet articulate it fully, but have sensed an atmosphere thick with conformity and fear, and want to get far away.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The core of Jesus' teachings centered around relationships, emerging from the Judaic ethos, namely piety within monotheism: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one" Deut 6:4 (NIV). Now, we're straitly charged to love God wholly, and love our neighbors. Do this and you fulfill the law and the prophets. See Matt 22:40; cf Gal 5:14; also see 1 John 4:20.

Against this, the de facto, operational 'god' of the Nee/Lee programme reveals itself: alignment with organizational leadership. Lee-ism has splintered, and one is asked which leadership group they follow: Dong-ite, or Chu-ite, or Blended? Based on this confession and commitment to obedience, all subsequent human relations are based.

I spent my best years hearing and re-speaking how Christianity was hopelessly divided, and how we alone stood for the oneness of the body of Christ. What a farce!

The real oneness of the Spirit requires genuine love from the heart, loving God, loving the brothers, loving our neighbors, and even loving our enemies. This alone is the agape love of God.

Instead, we in the recovery were taught to love the "truth," which is basically synonymous with loving doctrines, and not just any old doctrines, but only those which came forth out of Anaheim. We also were instructed to love "the ministry," which basically means that we only buy and read LSM books.

Don't need the Spirit of God to do these things. Devoted "tares" will suffice. As Titus Chu once said, if we really wanted to do door-knocking well, according to LSM's endless regulations (don't forget to "turn left"), we should have just hired unbelievers. They could have done a better job than we were doing.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I spent my best years hearing and re-speaking how Christianity was hopelessly divided, and how we alone stood for the oneness of the body of Christ. What a farce!

The real oneness of the Spirit requires genuine love from the heart, loving God, loving the brothers, loving our neighbors, and even loving our enemies. This alone is the agape love of God.

Instead, we in the recovery were taught to love the "truth," which is basically synonymous with loving doctrines, and not just any old doctrines, but only those which came forth out of Anaheim. We also were instructed to love "the ministry," which basically means that we only buy and read LSM books.

I just finished writing a post about a call I received this week from a sister/friend I lived with in the 70s. She and her hubby have been living in Anaheim 'forever'. But for whatever reasons, I believe the Holy Spirit prompted her to call me. (She may not know it but I KNOW the way the Holy Spirit operates. )

As I wrote we had a good conversation and somewhere in our fellowship I mentioned no matter where we are in our walk, we are all members of Christ's body. Christ is our Head and we are His body. She was receptive or did a very good job of holding her tongue!

Btw.. as I was scanning through these posts, I read somewhere that Lee did not regard Job (and the Psalms which I already knew and a few other books in the bible) as significant?? Is that right?

LOL.. because I told my friend I am experiencing Job's trials But I know how his story ends and I am quite encouraged in spite of my circumstances.

Again... showers of God's blessings upon us all.

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Btw.. as I was scanning through these posts, I read somewhere that Lee did not regard Job (and the Psalms which I already knew and a few other books in the bible) as significant?? Is that right?

Deuteronomy 17:14-20 shows the attributes of a very human king vis-a-vis God and His word. Per Psalms 1 and 2, this obedient king is designated the Son of God. NT reception of Psalm 2 shows this scripture was fulfilled by Jesus the Nazarene. "God has made this Jesus both Lord and Christ".

Not terribly mysterious.. .yet WL panned Psalm 1 as vain, and his RecV footnotes on Deut 17:14-20 focus on local church elders and their 'theocracy'. Where's Jesus? Where's the King of Israel, and Savior of the world? Nowhere to be seen. Again and again WL departed from clear NT precedent and struck off on his own, mostly to disastrous results.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

WL panned Psalm 1 as vain, and his RecV footnotes on Deut 17:14-20 focus on local church elders and their 'theocracy'. Where's Jesus? Where's the King of Israel, and Savior of the world? Nowhere to be seen. Again and again WL departed from clear NT precedent and struck off on his own, mostly to disastrous results.

Yeah. Hmmm..
I remember as I was contemplating to leave the LC, one of the things that was bothering me is I started seeing/discerning that it was no longer 'Christ and the church' but rather 'the church and Christ'. More like Lee and the church.

Hmm.. btw..
I don't know how he saw Psalm 1 & 2 as 'vain'. I just pulled up Psalm 1 & read it. (NASB) The first few verses read:

How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked,
Nor stand in the path of sinners,
Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!

But his delight is in the law (the Word) of the Lord,
And in His law (His Word) he meditates day and night.

What is VAIN about those scriptures??

Psalm 2 ends with:

How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

And he panned the psalms???

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I don't know how he saw Psalm 1 & 2 as 'vain'. I just pulled up Psalm 1 & read it. (NASB) The first few verses read:


What is VAIN about those scriptures??

Lee said salvation was by faith. Nobody could be saved by keeping the law. He forgot one person: Jesus.

If Jesus didn't do it, then our faith is in vain.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

Lee said salvation was by faith. Nobody could be saved by keeping the law. He forgot one person: Jesus.

If Jesus didn't do it, then our faith is in vain.

Seems to me he did not have much revelation and insight then. Jesus is the embodiment of the Law. The LAW of the LORD is perfect converting the soul. The LAW is the WORD of GOD Who became flesh. The Word of God converts the soul through His Holy Spirit of course. The letter kills but the Spirit gives Life.

It's a no brainer that no one can keep the Mosaic law.

But the 'Law' points to Jesus..to His Saving Grace.

Thanks for the clarification. Lee had tunnel vision. He got so caught up with his 'vision' of the 'church', he thought the whole bible is about the 'church'. It's not. It's Christ and the church. NOT the church and Christ.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

. . . he [Lee] thought the whole bible is about the 'church'. It's not. It's Christ and the church. NOT the church and Christ.

Actually, it is mostly just about Christ. Even the church is for Christ. The church is far from unimportant. But making it about Christ and the church is a formula for making the church into more than it is.

Christ, only Christ.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

Actually, it is mostly just about Christ. Even the church is for Christ. The church is far from unimportant. But making it about Christ and the church is a formula for making the church into more than it is.

Christ, only Christ.

I hear ya.. What I meant is, it slowly became all about the LC/LSM. It became about Lee being the oracle, the mota, etc... they talk about Christ of course but their agenda is to reel you into the LSM more than to Christ Himself. If that is not true, why have this forum?

How many times do we hear "Brother Lee said" ? That's what I meant about the LC/LSM putting Lee and the LC/LSM (the church) first. Everyone reads the RCV, the footnotes, the ministry booklets. But what about sharing from someone else's ministry? Isn't it frowned upon? Or what about sharing what God Himself showed you, revealed to you simply from the scriptures that isn't exactly in line with what Lee taught?

That's what we used to do back in the day before Lee became the center of the LC.

We are all instructed to Be diligent to accurately handle the Word of Truth.
(2 Timothy 2:15). But when people become parrots of a leader, be it Lee or someone else, we are not trusting in God to reveal His Word to us in our spirit. We are leaning on man to explain God's Word to us, which is what the Roman church did. And btw, not saying we don't need fellowship. We most certainly do!!! We need fellowship..we need guidance, spiritual mentors, pastors who are mature in Christ for the building up of the body of Christ.. and to bring unbelievers into God's Kingdom.

Just saying...........

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I hear ya.. What I meant is, it slowly became all about the LC/LSM. It became about Lee being the oracle, the mota, etc... they talk about Christ of course but their agenda is to reel you into the LSM more than to Christ Himself. If that is not true, why have this forum?

How many times do we hear "Brother Lee said" ? That's what I meant about the LC/LSM putting Lee and the LC/LSM (the church) first. Everyone reads the RCV, the footnotes, the ministry booklets. But what about sharing from someone else's ministry? Isn't it frowned upon? Or what about sharing what God Himself showed you, revealed to you simply from the scriptures that isn't exactly in line with what Lee taught?

That's what we used to do back in the day before Lee became the center of the LC.

We are all instructed to Be diligent to accurately handle the Word of Truth.
(2 Timothy 2:15). But when people become parrots of a leader, be it Lee or someone else, we are not trusting in God to reveal His Word to us in our spirit. We are leaning on man to explain God's Word to us, which is what the Roman church did. And btw, not saying we don't need fellowship. We most certainly do!!! We need fellowship..we need guidance, spiritual mentors, pastors who are mature in Christ for the building up of the body of Christ.. and to bring unbelievers into God's Kingdom.

Just saying...........

When it was all about "Christ and the church," things were far healthier than when it was all about "the ministry and the body."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When it was all about "Christ and the church," things were far healthier than when it was all about "the ministry and the body."

I think "Christ and the church" was just a back-door for "the church" which itself was a back-door for "the ministry" which was all about someone assuming control. If it was really all about the church then Luther never should have left the RCC.

Remember that Jesus said, "My ekklesia" in Matt 16; there were other ekklesia out there. The ekklesia of Jesus is about one thing: Jesus bringing us home to the Father. It's not about the ground or the ministry or the ministry's various 'truths' and 'flows'.

As we read scripture, the Holy Spirit comes and reveals Jesus, and Jesus likewise shows us the Father. In the church of Jesus, the subject isn't ever the church. If it is, we've taken our eyes off of the prize. We've been mesmerised by a sleight-of-hand shell game. Which shell is the pea under? Maybe under the "ministry" shell? Or the "Body" shell? or the ... you get my point.

Don't be fooled by close-but-no-cigar imitations. Jesus is the truth, and the way home to the Father. This is our unending focus. He alone has the ministry of the age; this age, and every age to come. . . in heaven, on earth, under the earth. Jesus is the way. There is no other way.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

I think "Christ and the church" was just a back-door for "the church" which itself was a back-door for "the ministry" which was all about someone assuming control. If it was really all about the church then Luther never should have left the RCC.

Remember that Jesus said, "My ekklesia"; there were other ekklesia out there. The ekklesia of Jesus is about one thing: Jesus bringing us home to the Father. It's not about the ground or the ministry or the ministry's various 'truths' and 'flows'.

The Spirit reveals Jesus, and Jesus shows us the Father. In the church of Jesus, the subject isn't ever the church. If it is, we've taken our eyes off of the prize. We've been mesmerised by a sleight-of-hand shell game. Which shell is the pea under? Maybe under the "ministry" shell? Or the "Body" shell? or the ... you get my point.

Don't be fooled by close-but-no-cigar imitations. Jesus is the truth, and the way home to the Father. This is our unending focus. He alone has the ministry of the age; this age, and every age to come. . . in heaven, on earth, under the earth. Jesus is the way. There is no other way.

Lee seemed to think that it was possible to care about Christ, but not the church. The reality is that the two are inseparable as it pertains to our understanding, so Lee's talk of "Christ and the Church" was a straw man intended to shift focus away from Christ.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Lee seemed to think that it was possible to care about Christ, but not the church. The reality is that the two are inseparable as it pertains to our understanding, so Lee's talk of "Christ and the Church" was a straw man intended to shift focus away from Christ.

In the meetings, someone would point out that Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her, or that the Church was the Body; or some teen-aged girl would burst into tears and blubber that she also loved the church. "Just like Christ does".

And now you've been moved away from the purity and simplicity of the gospel. Now your focus is off your Lord, and if you aren't careful you'll be led further and further away. I've seen it a dozen times if I've seen it once. It's such a smooth move. Like a card trick; gets them almost every time.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

In the meetings, someone would point out that Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her, or that the Church was the Body; or some teen-aged girl would burst into tears and blubber that she also loved the church. "Just like Christ does".

And now you've been moved away from the purity and simplicity of the gospel. Now your focus is off your Lord, and if you aren't careful you'll be led further and further away. I've seen it a dozen times if I've seen it once. It's such a smooth move. Like a card trick; gets them almost every time.

I feel that the LC draws many people by portraying itself as a "no nonsense" kind of group. They say they are only for Christ. Once someone has been around for a little while, they are told that in order to be for Christ, they have to be for "the church."

Then they come to find that "the church" is supposedly only accurately detailed by a certain ministry. So the underlying assumption is that they have to be for a certain ministry if they're serious about the Lord.

It is a mindset that deceives so many. "The Church," as a singular entity seems like a worthy goal. But what is missing from the equation? Christ.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I feel that the LC draws many people by portraying itself as a "no nonsense" kind of group. They say they are only for Christ. Once someone has been around for a little while, they are told that in order to be for Christ, they have to be for "the church."

Then they come to find that "the church" is supposedly only accurately detailed by a certain ministry. So the underlying assumption is that they have to be for a certain ministry if they're serious about the Lord.

It is a mindset that deceives so many. "The Church," as a singular entity seems like a worthy goal. But what is missing from the equation? Christ.

Yes, the deception is in stages. Just like the introductory, "Oh, we're just Christians". Get them to bite on that, slowly feed them your proprietary formula and move them away from being 'just Christian'. All the while these new additions are supposedly intrinsically linked to the original.

Nothing of the sort. Any one of these new introductions has its own logic. But whatever you do, don't poke at it. Just take it in, nice and smooth, and you're on to the next level.

For example, the oft-mentioned "Christ loved the church". So the rank-and-file are supposed to as well, right? I mean if Christ loved the church, so should we, and also "give ourselves for her". I heard this logic often, either implied or stated baldly as self-evident truth.

But how can the church love the church, and give herself for herself? As soon as you begin to question the underlying assumptions the thing comes apart like wet crepe-paper. It has no solidity. What's underlying it is usually an emotionally-fraught meeting, with passionate declarations to some proposed entity that doesn't even exist apart from the proposition. So don't think; rather be in a manufactured emotional state, and presume it's being "in spirit" and you give your life over to nothing.

Again I ask, if the church were so sacrosanct then why did Luther leave?

"Oh, that wasn't the church, that was the harlot babylon".

Oh, really? What distinguished you from that?

"Well, when we do it, it's organic. (or, living. Or, the truth) When they do it, it's organizational (or, religion. Or traditions of men)."

And so you find there's nothing there but a set of unquestioned assumptions that fall apart with the slightest critical examination. And you gave yourself to nothing at all. You were merchandised; you were jobbed.

At some point, when you see ministrypropagation.org you might want to really ask, what are we propagating here? I mean at some point it just becomes too glaringly obvious. "I'm proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand", said one of the current blendeds. Really how else can one go on?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes, the deception is in stages. Just like the introductory, "Oh, we're just Christians". Get them to bite on that, slowly feed them your proprietary formula and move them away from being 'just Christian'. All the while these new additions are supposedly intrinsically linked to the original.

Nothing of the sort. Any one of these new introductions has its own logic. But whatever you do, don't poke at it. Just take it in, nice and smooth, and you're on to the next level.

Generally speaking, I think and I hope that most Christians would know better than to take the LC bait.

But what the LC seeks to provide are ear-tickling teachings that seemingly highlight 'missed' points which are supposedly ignored by the majority of Christians.

This is the kind of stuff that can fool people. It's not really the kind of logic that would fool most people, but it only takes a small set of supporters to get the ball in motion.

And I think that a lot of it is related to some kind of underlying insecurity. The LC preys upon those who don't know what to believe, or those who are developing their own belief systems (like college students). Can the problem be stopped? It depends. Only if people can ask the kinds of questions which need to be asked.