Science scratches its' head

[byHismercy]

https://www.space.com/hubble-constan...explained.html

This link is to an article at space.com wherein the astronomer is scratching his head, metaphorically, and wondering how the Earth could possibly be the center of the universe, as it appears to be.

I absolutely love this. God is great, God is an awesome creator, and when science subtracts Him from His creation, they just get a mystery. I have never seen this queried in print, by someone who is looking closely at His creation. Maybe we, as His masterpiece, are at the very heart of everything He made. If we are the center of the entire universe.....that is bound to cause some unbelievers to think on Him! Praise Jesus, folks. He is absolutely Awesome.

[JJ]

Interesting, and well said ByHisMercy.

https://biblehub.com/hebrews/11-3.htm
The only way to understand the universe is by faith in God

[byHismercy]

Thanks JJ.......our Lord speaks world framing words, and just like that, there the worlds are!! Jesus is worthy of awe and worship!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by JJ

Interesting, and well said ByHisMercy.

https://biblehub.com/hebrews/11-3.htm
The only way to understand the universe is by faith in God

Since Aristotle (4th c. BCE) otherworldliness was eliminated as empirically unprovable, so eliminated from scientific study and research.

That's not to say that since scientists haven't been believers. They couldn't help it. The Roman Catholic church was the government for millennia. So some scientists, like Giordano Bruno, were burn at the stake for claiming the earth wasn't the center of the universe. The microscope prove him right, and the church wrong.

So faith in God, in the past, has greatly limited the understanding of the universe ... sorry to say.

[Sons to Glory!]

Oh boy - have we finally figured out that man (apart from faith) really doesn't have a clue? Nah!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Since Aristotle (4th c. BCE) otherworldliness was eliminated as empirically unprovable, so eliminated from scientific study and research.

That's not to say that since scientists haven't been believers. They couldn't help it. The Roman Catholic church was the government for millennia. So some scientists, like Giordano Bruno, were burn at the stake for claiming the earth wasn't the center of the universe. The microscope prove him right, and the church wrong.

So faith in God, in the past, has greatly limited the understanding of the universe ... sorry to say.

Like ByHisMercy, who started this thread, I would make the opposite conclusion -- faith in God has never limited our understanding of the universe. In fact, the greatest hoax ever inflicted on mankind is that there is no God and this universe evolved on its own.

Somehow awareness started to believe, contrary to all evidence, that the Popes in Rome had faith in God because they called themselves the church. I would say "prove it," since all they have done is persecute the real believers for more than a millennia. That's not to say that some Catholics are not real believers, but that I never saw any signs of faith emanating from the Vatican.

[Sons to Glory!]

Hey - what if we found out the Roman Church actually was the one, true gathering?!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hey - what if we found out the Roman Church actually was the one, true gathering?!

They murdered thousands of believers -- many tortured mercilessly -- so if they are "the one, true gathering," I am looking for another God.

And I did. Many historians, rightly so, have determined that Mary is the god of the Roman Church.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

They murdered thousands of believers -- many tortured mercilessly -- so if they are "the one, true gathering," I am looking for another God.

And I did. Many historians, rightly so, have determined that Mary is the god of the Roman Church.

Somehow I knew you'd respond to my silly question . . . (But bro, all those murders are in the past now!)

Seriously, in my small Tuesday group many times we pray for some who have some sort of Catholic influence. When we pray for salvation to come to them, oftentimes someone will pray, "Lord, if need be even bring a believing Catholic to them to preach the gospel!" That whole Roman system is far beyond any kind of repair and is worthy of the fire, but God still loves the people.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

They murdered thousands of believers -- many tortured mercilessly -- so if they are "the one, true gathering," I am looking for another God.

And I did. Many historians, rightly so, have determined that Mary is the god of the Roman Church.

I just ran into an evil answer, when answering questions on Quora. It lists all of these incidents in the Old Testament where people died like the flood, this and that battle, Egypt plaques and firstborn dead, etc. etc. I know the answer is evil, accusing God about all kinds of things. But I was at a loss of words concerning how even to begin to answer.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Somehow I knew you'd respond to my silly question . . . (But bro, all those murders are in the past now!)

Seriously, in my small Tuesday group many times we pray for some who have some sort of Catholic influence. When we pray for salvation to come to them, oftentimes someone will pray, "Lord, if need be even bring a believing Catholic to them to preach the gospel!" That whole Roman system is far beyond any kind of repair and is worthy of the fire, but God still loves the people.

Like the Recovery, we must always separate the members of the system from its headquarters. I have a neighbor, who is a close friend, and we talk all the time about the Lord and following Him. We have a great time encouraging each other in the faith. I am honest to mention that I no longer can accept the idols, but like Paul said, "we know that an idol is nothing." (I Cor 8.4)

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I just ran into an evil answer, when answering questions on Quora. It lists all of these incidents in the Old Testament where people died like the flood, this and that battle, Egypt plaques and firstborn dead, etc. etc. I know the answer is evil, accusing God about all kinds of things. But I was at a loss of words concerning how even to begin to answer.

I think people have to take in the whole account of the Old Testament, starting with Genesis. For the first time, I'm going completely through the OT, from beginning to end. Before I would just read OT books or passages, but this time I'm doing right from the beginning.

I have to say that in this way, I'm starting to just now get a better idea of what God had in view back then. We can tell others that things happened because of humans' unrighteousness or because of whatever gross sin or error, but it's not easy to understand without the fuller picture. I've always been more of a NT guy, but I've had different ones tell me I ought to read the OT in its entirety. Now I'm getting just a little glimpse as to why it's good to do that.

And people we try to explain it to might not have a regenerated spirit in which to even grasp the fundamental reasons why God reacted in things back then. In any case, we can tell them how it was, and this may provide an opportunity to tell them about the awesome news of the New Covenant!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I just ran into an evil answer, when answering questions on Quora. It lists all of these incidents in the Old Testament where people died like the flood, this and that battle, Egypt plaques and firstborn dead, etc. etc. I know the answer is evil, accusing God about all kinds of things. But I was at a loss of words concerning how even to begin to answer.

Not familiar with Quora, but does not God always reserve the right to judge?

What was the "evil answer?"

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not familiar with Quora, but does not God always reserve the right to judge?

What was the "evil answer?"

This guy (not me) said

"Below is a sampling of the endless murders committed by Yahweh/Jehovah in the Bible. This is praised and extolled by Christians incessantly:"

Killing Event Reference Bible's Number Estimate
The Flood of Noah- Genesis 7:23, an estimated 20,000,000 murdered
Abraham's war to rescue Lot- Genesis 14:17-19, an estimated 1,000 murdered
Sodom and Gomorrah Genesis 19:24 an estimated 2,000 murdered
While they were sore, Dinah's brethren slew all the males Genesis 34:1-31, Judith 9:2-3 2 an estimated 1,000 murdered
A seven year worldwide famine Genesis 41:25-54, an estimated 70,000 murdered
There will be blood: The first plague of Egypt Exodus 7:15-27, an estimated 10,000 murdered
The seventh plague: hail Exodus 9:25, an estimated 300,000 murdered
Firstborn Egyptian children Exodus 12:29-30, an estimated 500,000 murdered
The Lord took off their chariot wheels Exodus 14:8-26, an estimated 600 5,000 murdered
Amalekites Exodus 17:13, an estimated 1,000 murdered
Who is on the Lord's side?: Forcing friends and family to kill each other Exodus 32:27-28 an estimated 3,000 murdered
When the people complained, God burned them to death Num 11:1 an estimated 100 murdered
While the flesh was still between their teeth, the Lord smote them will a very great plague Num 11:33, an estimated 10,000 murdered
Ten scouts are killed for their honest report Num 14:35-45, 10 murdered
A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day is stoned to death Num 15:32-35, 1 murdered
Korah, his companions, and their families are buried alive Num 16:27 3, 9 murdered
God burns 250 people to death for burning incense Num 16:35, 250 murdered
God kills 14,700 for complaining about God's killings Num 16:49 14, 700 murdered
The Jericho massacre Joshua 6:21 1,000 murdered
The Ai massacre Joshua 8:1-25 12,000 murdered
God stops the sun so Joshua can get his killing done in the daylight Joshua 10:10-11 5,000 murdered
Joshua utterly destroyed all that breathed as the Lord commanded Joshua 10:28-42 7 7,000 murdered
The genocide of twenty cities: There was not any left to breathe Joshua 11:8-12 2 20,000 murdered
The Lord delivered the Canaanites and Perizzites Judges 1:4 10,000 murdered
Gideon's story: The Lord set every man's sword against his fellow Judges 7:22 120,000 murdered
A city is massacred and 1000 burn to death because of God's evil spirit Judges 9:23-27 1,001 2,000 murdered
The Ammonite massacre Judges 11:32-33 20,000 murdered
God forces the Philistines to kill each other 1 Samuel 14:20 1,000 murdered
David spends the day killing Amalekites 1 Samuel 30:17 1,000 murdered
God killed 100,000 Syrians for calling him a god of the hills 1 Kings 20:28-29 100,000 murdered
God killed 27,000 Syrians by making a wall fall on them 1 Kings 20:30 27,000 murdered

[awareness]

1 John says God is love. So must be He killed all those out of His love. It may be that we don't understand because we don't know God's grand plan, and He's not revealing it to us. Maybe our intellect is unable to contain His grand plan. Maybe it's too big for us to contain.

What else could be the reason, other than to conclude that God is just mean and nasty to His created beings? If that's true, then I couldn't love Him with an innocent conscience. I could only fear Him. 1 John didn't say God is fear.

[Sons to Glory!]

I'm just thankful to be in the New Covenant of grace!!! The law is basically merciless.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm just thankful to be in the New Covenant of grace!!! The law is basically merciless.

That's right. The author of the evil answer (I would call it that, also) probably knows nothing of the Fathers new covenant, the better covenant, the best covenant with His people. His unfathomable love towards us was proven with the sacrifice of His beloved Son! His love is undeniable. But the author of the kill list would like to leave that out, I guess. The OT for me is sometimes hard to understand, but the first question that popped up was, what actions had these ones taken against the Almighty God? I believe He is righteous, and executed righteousness in His judgments.

We, the church, we have the grace and mercy as He laid all the judgment upon Jesus. The author of the kill list should be on his knees in thanksgiving to God. Anyways, someday....

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by awareness

1 John says God is love. So must be He killed all those out of His love. It may be that we don't understand because we don't know God's grand plan, and He's not revealing it to us. Maybe our intellect is unable to contain His grand plan. Maybe it's too big for us to contain.

What else could be the reason, other than to conclude that God is just mean and nasty to His created beings? If that's true, then I couldn't love Him with an innocent conscience. I could only fear Him. 1 John didn't say God is fear.

Harold, have you seen the teaching on BBC international over on YouTube? A lot of questions are being answered for me through rightly dividing Gods word to different groups and different time periods.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I just ran into an evil answer, when answering questions on Quora. It lists all of these incidents in the Old Testament where people died like the flood, this and that battle, Egypt plaques and firstborn dead, etc. etc. I know the answer is evil, accusing God about all kinds of things. But I was at a loss of words concerning how even to begin to answer.

Since this post is now on Alt-Views, I can connect what is being done to "ruin" God's reputation to the same tactics designed to "ruin" America's reputation. Thru our educational system, America is being painted as an evil country with evil origins. The (mis-)treatment of African Americans and native Indians is their "proof."

For those who long to see evil in God and His word, there is no answer. Jesus said our faith must be as a child -- trusting in our earthly and our heavenly Father. God allows "reasons" for their unbelief so that no one is mentally compelled to believe in Him. Faith is a choice. Yet, we have options. We can see what we want to see, and believe what we want to believe. Two people look at the same events, one sees God is good, and one sees God is evil. That's the way it is. Some things don't make sense.

Going back to the OP's topic, why is it that some look at creation and see God's handiwork, and some only see evolution? How can they reconcile these positions? How can they look at creation and say there is no God, and then look at man's history and say God is evil?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

That's right. The author of the evil answer (I would call it that, also) probably knows nothing of the Fathers new covenant, the better covenant, the best covenant with His people. His unfathomable love towards us was proven with the sacrifice of His beloved Son! His love is undeniable. But the author of the kill list would like to leave that out, I guess. The OT for me is sometimes hard to understand, but the first question that popped up was, what actions had these ones taken against the Almighty God? I believe He is righteous, and executed righteousness in His judgments.

We, the church, we have the grace and mercy as He laid all the judgment upon Jesus. The author of the kill list should be on his knees in thanksgiving to God. Anyways, someday....

Exactly! In going through the OT verse by verse, I'm struck with how God explains why He did certain things to such and such groups. He tells how they turned away from Him and did various egregious things to either God or His chosen ones.

And these things were all before the New Covenant of grace. It's not always easy to comprehend just how the law works - especially in this society where personal accountability is on the wane.

And for someone who doesn't believe there is a God in the first place, the whole thing seems so unfair. How could God do this or that!? It is like in Romans 9, "Can the thing made say to its Maker - Why did you make me this way? You have no right! You can't just decide to smash my lump of clay and start over!" He is God, and hallelujah the good news is He is dealing with man now according to the work of grace in His Son!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm just thankful to be in the New Covenant of grace!!! The law is basically merciless.

Well amen to that StG. God in the New Testament is love ... if we discount Revelation.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Harold, have you seen the teaching on BBC international over on YouTube? A lot of questions are being answered for me through rightly dividing Gods word to different groups and different time periods.

I have not seen the teaching on BBC. Can you link it?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well amen to that StG. God in the New Testament is love ... if we discount Revelation.

I don't "discount" the book of Revelation (as not part of love & grace) after going through it with bros here a couple years ago! Yes, there is a lot of judgment, but here's the thing. Revelation is about two kingdoms - the kingdom of darkness with Satan as the head, and the kingdom of light with our Lord and Savior as its head. In Revelation both are brought to full manifestation (or the tress are allowed to fully bare mature fruit). One tree must be dealt with and cut down. The other is nurtured and exalted.

I look it like a big cancer in the body. If you love someone and have the ability, you cut the cancer out, so they may live in freedom!

So yes, even in the book of Revelation - HE LOVES US!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Since this post is now on Alt-Views, I can connect what is being done to "ruin" God's reputation to the same tactics designed to "ruin" America's reputation. Thru our educational system, America is being painted as an evil country with evil origins. The (mis-)treatment of African Americans and native Indians is their "proof."

For those who long to see evil in God and His word, there is no answer. Jesus said our faith must be as a child -- trusting in our earthly and our heavenly Father. God allows "reasons" for their unbelief so that no one is mentally compelled to believe in Him. Faith is a choice. Yet, we have options. We can see what we want to see, and believe what we want to believe. Two people look at the same events, one sees God is good, and one sees God is evil. That's the way it is. Some things don't make sense.

Going back to the OP's topic, why is it that some look at creation and see God's handiwork, and some only see evolution? How can they reconcile these positions? How can they look at creation and say there is no God, and then look at man's history and say God is evil?

Amen bro Ohio, to faith. We need that to relate to God here today.

But all the way back to Plato -- those Greek smarty-pants -- it was said that man has within 'him' a moral compass. It's pretty obvisous that it is that moral compass that judges God's action in the OT as evil, and what early America did to the slaves and Indians as evil.

I have no problem agreeing with what early America did as wrong. Our founders in the declaration of Independence even agree :

"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness . . ."

It just took us time to catch up to that truth. A truth that even the founders were hypocritical to.

The OT God is another matter. I'm unable to explain it. Sorry. All I have is theories and speculations.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I have no problem agreeing with what early America did as wrong. Our founders in the declaration of Independence even agree :

"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness . . ."

Bro, didn't I already inform you that it was the [7th President Andrew] Jacksonian Democrats who broke the treaties with the Indians and prevented the emancipation of the slaves? Don't blame America, blame the Democrats! Go read some accurate history books please!

Andrew Jackson appointed the SCOTUS Justices who gave us that horrible Dred Scott decision in 1857. It was the Democrats in Congress, both in the North and the South, that did all they could to prevent the emancipation of slaves. Hundreds of thousands of American WHITE men died in the Civil War to free these slaves.

America has NO REASON WHATSOEVER to apologize for her past, and today Americans have every right to boast in their heritage and their flag!

If you still have serious problems with any past Americans for their crimes, then get a court order, exhume their bodies, put them on trial, and sentence them.

Other than that, please stop condemning the church and every Christian, America and every American, for the sins and failures of certain individuals in the past!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Bro, didn't I already inform you that it was the [7th President Andrew] Jacksonian Democrats who broke the treaties with the Indians and prevented the emancipation of the slaves? Don't blame America, blame the Democrats! Go read some accurate history books please!

Andrew Jackson appointed the SCOTUS Justices who gave us that horrible Dred Scott decision in 1857. It was the Democrats in Congress, both in the North and the South, that did all they could to prevent the emancipation of slaves. Hundreds of thousands of American WHITE men died in the Civil War to free these slaves.

America has NO REASON WHATSOEVER to apologize for her past, and today Americans have every right to boast in their heritage and their flag!

If you still have serious problems with any past Americans for their crimes, then get a court order, exhume their bodies, put them on trial, and sentence them.

Other than that, please stop condemning the church and every Christian, America and every American, for the sins and failures of certain individuals in the past!

Okay, okay, it's all the democrats fault.

None of the founders held slaves or killed Indians. If they did they were democrats. Cuz only democrats do bad things.

I get it bro Ohio. We all do.

And evolution is true cuz the democrats evolved from the apes.

[Sons to Glory!]

.......

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

.......

I forgot to add that only the republicans were created by God ... so bro Ohio must believe.

But bro Ohio can't resist dragging politics into a science discussion.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Okay, okay, it's all the democrats fault.

None of the founders held slaves or killed Indians. If they did they were democrats. Cuz only democrats do bad things.

I get it bro Ohio. We all do.

And evolution is true cuz the democrats evolved from the apes.

Sorry, but I don't think you get it. Read your history. The founding fathers were split on slavery. About 50% had slaves. Eventually those who held slaves grouped into the Democratic Party, and those who fought for emancipation formed a new party with A. Lincoln.

Why do you make light of this historical record? And, btw, there never has been a single Republican who ever owned a slave. If you really hated racism and its evils, you would go around the world and condemn all the real villains instead of constantly taking keyboard potshots at all Americans.

Do you know that the sex slave trade is today rampant in the US? Where's your outcry? Where's the outcry by a single Democrat? The experts like Jaco Booyens tell us that President Trump and Governor Abbott are the only politicians currently advocating policy to protect these underage girls and boys. These experts are screaming for border security since that is where nameless child slaves are brought into the country.

[Nuclear]

As a response to the original purpose of the thread:

The idea of a "center" as stated in this article doesn't really line up with what byHisMercy thinks it means. The reason that we appear to be at the center of the universe from a visual standpoint is because the light that reaches us at this particular point in space from the edge of the universe is going to make a near perfect sphere with us at the center. However the same is true for any point in space, so the idea of being at the center is relative.

Similar with expansion, there is no true objective center of expansion, its entirely relative. Visually its explained perfectly here: https://youtu.be/W4c-gX9MT1Q?t=9

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

As a response to the original purpose of the thread:

The idea of a "center" as stated in this article doesn't really line up with what byHisMercy thinks it means. The reason that we appear to be at the center of the universe from a visual standpoint is because the light that reaches us at this particular point in space from the edge of the universe is going to make a near perfect sphere with us at the center. However the same is true for any point in space, so the idea of being at the center is relative.

Hubble said the universe was expanding in all directions, with points farthest away moving fastest. So, if this is true, is there not a center of the universe, a starting point?

[Nuclear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hubble said the universe was expanding in all directions, with points farthest away moving fastest. So, if this is true, is there not a center of the universe, a starting point?

No it does not. Take for example two concentric circles, one being half the radius of the other, lets say respectively 1 meter and 2 meters. You are in the center. Both expand to twice their radius (to represent the expansion of a plane that these circles are attached to) over the course of 1 second.

The edge of the smaller circle moved away from you at 1 meter per second.

The edge of the larger circle would have moved away from you at 2 meters per second.

This aligns with what Hubble observed and works for any point on this plane, its mathematically proven. Again there needs be no center, even if this plane began from a single point.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry, but I don't think you get it. Read your history. The founding fathers were split on slavery. About 50% had slaves. Eventually those who held slaves grouped into the Democratic Party, and those who fought for emancipation formed a new party with A. Lincoln.

Why do you make light of this historical record? And, btw, there never has been a single Republican who ever owned a slave. If you really hated racism and its evils, you would go around the world and condemn all the real villains instead of constantly taking keyboard potshots at all Americans.

Do you know that the sex slave trade is today rampant in the US? Where's your outcry? Where's the outcry by a single Democrat? The experts like Jaco Booyens tell us that President Trump and Governor Abbott are the only politicians currently advocating policy to protect these underage girls and boys. These experts are screaming for border security since that is where nameless child slaves are brought into the country.

This is off topic on this thread. And there's no point in discussing these matters with you because your political prejudices have you so twisted that you make stupid disprovable statements like no republican has held slaves, and democrats aren't doing anything about the sex slave trading. I can easily disprove these claims but it won't do any good because your mind is already made up ... because you're hell bent on seeing these matters the way that you want, for unexplained irrational reasons.

If you must ... take it to the political thread.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

As a response to the original purpose of the thread:

The idea of a "center" as stated in this article doesn't really line up with what byHisMercy thinks it means. The reason that we appear to be at the center of the universe from a visual standpoint is because the light that reaches us at this particular point in space from the edge of the universe is going to make a near perfect sphere with us at the center. However the same is true for any point in space, so the idea of being at the center is relative.

Similar with expansion, there is no true objective center of expansion, its entirely relative. Visually its explained perfectly here: https://youtu.be/W4c-gX9MT1Q?t=9

Finally a level-headed view on the matter of 'the center.'

Same for man being the center of what God is doing. That's just a view from our ego. Cuz we don't know all that God is doing. For all we know there's other life out in this vast universe, that think they are the center of what God is doing.

If we go by the Bible, we're but maggots : Job 25:6

And btw, welcome Nuclear.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

If you must ... take it to the political thread.

Oh no don't - this is fun to watch - two heavyweights (11k+ posts vs. 7k+ posts) going at it!

(BTW - either of you ever read Thomas Sowell's "Conflict of Visions"?)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hubble said the universe was expanding in all directions, with points farthest away moving fastest. So, if this is true, is there not a center of the universe, a starting point?

How do we know if there's a center if we don't know the other edges.

[Nuclear]

Originally Posted by awareness

And btw, welcome Nuclear.

Thanks for the welcome! I plan to make an introductory post yet, but I've been lurking for a bit. An introduction is hopefully in short order.

Agreed as well on the ego bit. It seems to me at least that its just an extension of each of us seeing ourselves as the main character in our story, when in reality that how everyone sees themselves. For all we know, humanity's existence in the cosmos could be just as insignificant as our individual presence among the humanity.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

Thanks for the welcome! I plan to make an introductory post yet, but I've been lurking for a bit. An introduction is hopefully in short order.

Agreed as well on the ego bit. It seems to me at least that its just an extension of each of us seeing ourselves as the main character in our story, when in reality that how everyone sees themselves. For all we know, humanity's existence in the cosmos could be just as insignificant as our individual presence among the humanity.

Looking forward to your introduction.

And in truth we are the center of the universe ... in that the awareness reading these words is at the center of all that we experience.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

As a response to the original purpose of the thread:

The idea of a "center" as stated in this article doesn't really line up with what byHisMercy thinks it means. The reason that we appear to be at the center of the universe from a visual standpoint is because the light that reaches us at this particular point in space from the edge of the universe is going to make a near perfect sphere with us at the center. However the same is true for any point in space, so the idea of being at the center is relative.

Similar with expansion, there is no true objective center of expansion, its entirely relative. Visually its explained perfectly here: https://youtu.be/W4c-gX9MT1Q?t=9

I'm not sure I understand this, but I have not studied astronomy in any depth at all. Maybe you can help me understand a question that niggles my brain these days....

Moon orbits the earth about once a day. Earth revolves on its' axis every 24 hours. Earth and moon together orbit the sun once every 364 1/4 days. And somehow, in a miraculous way, the moon appears to follow the sun's path in the sky, rising in the east and setting in the west every night. I just can't wrap my brain around this special relationship they have. I mean, HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? Anybody elses' mind boggles witnessing Gods' creation?? If you can explain that.....

My mind and heart praise Jesus! Everything I look a little deeper into His creation, He displays His awesome hand!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by awareness

I have not seen the teaching on BBC. Can you link it?

https://youtu.be/MlVIee2pp_g

Check this out, Harold. This teaching on the two different kingdoms and how they were gospels delivered to two separate groups was news to me. I am learning to rightly divide, I hope, following this pastor Gene Kim. Honestly, the LC has absolutely nothing, thinking they have everything....this is awesome. I hope you enjoy it. Let me know. God loves you a lot, brother.

Btw, this is totally unrelated to this conversation....

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

As a response to the original purpose of the thread:

The idea of a "center" as stated in this article doesn't really line up with what byHisMercy thinks it means. The reason that we appear to be at the center of the universe from a visual standpoint is because the light that reaches us at this particular point in space from the edge of the universe is going to make a near perfect sphere with us at the center. However the same is true for any point in space, so the idea of being at the center is relative.

Similar with expansion, there is no true objective center of expansion, its entirely relative. Visually its explained perfectly here: https://youtu.be/W4c-gX9MT1Q?t=9

I will be honest: that video didn't help me at all (and many others in the comments apparently too), but in reading the comments I did realize that I had made a mental error in my conception of the big bang. I essentially had space and time existing already, but just empty, and then the big bang was all the matter that exploded in space. But the big bang IS space, time, and matter all co-relative, so the singularity really is the whole universe, including all of space. But since we are limited beings, my brain still has to create a thing called "non-space space" in which to put the singularity in order to make sense of it all.

It still seems to me though, that if we are God "outside" of time and space watching the formation of the universe, then at the point in time that the universe was, say, 1,000,000 miles wide in its expansion, there would be a measurable center 500,000 miles from all edges, which would remain the center even as it all expands to where we are today.

Some say in the comments that the universe has always been infinite, even in the context of the big bang. If that's true, I can't wrap my head around it.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I'm not sure I understand this, but I have not studied astronomy in any depth at all. Maybe you can help me understand a question that niggles my brain these days....

Moon orbits the earth about once a day. Earth revolves on its' axis every 24 hours. Earth and moon together orbit the sun once every 364 1/4 days. And somehow, in a miraculous way, the moon appears to follow the sun's path in the sky, rising in the east and setting in the west every night. I just can't wrap my brain around this special relationship they have. I mean, HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? Anybody elses' mind boggles witnessing Gods' creation?? If you can explain that.....

My mind and heart praise Jesus! Everything I look a little deeper into His creation, He displays His awesome hand!

Edited to correct my mistake......according to Google, the moon orbits the earth every 27ish days, and simultaneously it revolves on its' own axis also once every 27 days, giving it the appearance of not revolving at all (we never see the far side of the moon from here).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

This is off topic on this thread. And there's no point in discussing these matters with you because your political prejudices have you so twisted that you make stupid disprovable statements like no republican has held slaves, and democrats aren't doing anything about the sex slave trading. I can easily disprove these claims but it won't do any good because your mind is already made up ... because you're hell bent on seeing these matters the way that you want, for unexplained irrational reasons.

If you must ... take it to the political thread.

Sorry to upset you so. I just got a little upset with your cheap shots. My bad.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I'm not sure I understand this, but I have not studied astronomy in any depth at all. Maybe you can help me understand a question that niggles my brain these days....

Moon orbits the earth about once a day. Earth revolves on its' axis every 24 hours. Earth and moon together orbit the sun once every 364 1/4 days. And somehow, in a miraculous way, the moon appears to follow the sun's path in the sky, rising in the east and setting in the west every night. I just can't wrap my brain around this special relationship they have. I mean, HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? Anybody elses' mind boggles witnessing Gods' creation?? If you can explain that.....

My mind and heart praise Jesus! Everything I look a little deeper into His creation, He displays His awesome hand!

Yes, yes, yes. Me too.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

https://youtu.be/MlVIee2pp_g

Check this out, Harold. This teaching on the two different kingdoms and how they were gospels delivered to two separate groups was news to me. I am learning to rightly divide, I hope, following this pastor Gene Kim. Honestly, the LC has absolutely nothing, thinking they have everything....this is awesome. I hope you enjoy it. Let me know. God loves you a lot, brother.

Btw, this is totally unrelated to this conversation....

Thanks. His was a good teaching, but nothing new to me.

But I don't know about his KJV only advice. We've hashed that out thoroughly. We once had a sister that claimed that the fall of Lee and the local church was because they left the KJV. And she wouldn't shut up about it. It became very annoying. But I miss her. I gave her a hard time, but we became buddies privately. She had lots of hardships, and prolly isn't with us any more.

[Nuclear]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I'm not sure I understand this, but I have not studied astronomy in any depth at all. Maybe you can help me understand a question that niggles my brain these days....

Moon orbits the earth about once a day. Earth revolves on its' axis every 24 hours. Earth and moon together orbit the sun once every 364 1/4 days. And somehow, in a miraculous way, the moon appears to follow the sun's path in the sky, rising in the east and setting in the west every night. I just can't wrap my brain around this special relationship they have. I mean, HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? Anybody elses' mind boggles witnessing Gods' creation?? If you can explain that.....

As far as I know, this isn't actually the case, which I think you did address in the followup. This would only seem to be the case from one day to the next, as the orbit of the moon is slow enough that relative to the sun it will seem to follow it at the same distance. However wait a week or two and it will be at a completely different spot, and only seems to follow it because both planes of orbit are the same.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Edited to correct my mistake......according to Google, the moon orbits the earth every 27ish days, and simultaneously it revolves on its' own axis also once every 27 days, giving it the appearance of not revolving at all (we never see the far side of the moon from here).

And as far as this goes, its actually pretty cool how this works. If you take a look across the solar system, you'll find that with most moons on other planets this is also the case; that each moon only has one face to its planet at all times. This is because of a phenomenon known as Tidal Locking.

Essentially when a satellite at the scale of the moon orbits a planet as relatively close as the earth and moon, several interesting things happen. For one, the gravitational force difference between the far end of the moon and the far end is large enough to squeeze the moon into a sort of oval, its barely visible but its there. Imagine attaching a rope to the edge of a ball of play-do and swinging it around you, this is sort of how that would work. Its not a perfect analogy but it should get the point across.

What this change in shape does is change how the moon interacts with earths gravity. Imagine in this case attaching a rope to the "pointy end" of a football and swinging it around you. As you can imagine, no matter the position of the football when you start, it will always end up correcting itself and face a certain direction towards you. It may wobble and change orientation slightly (even the moon does this, depending on the time we may be able to see a bit of the rear face) but will always remain relatively stable. This has been observed in most cases of a moon orbiting a larger planet. Hope that helps!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

And as far as this goes, its actually pretty cool how this works. If you take a look across the solar system, you'll find that with most moons on other planets this is also the case; that each moon only has one face to its planet at all times. This is because of a phenomenon known as Tidal Locking.

Essentially when a satellite at the scale of the moon orbits a planet as relatively close as the earth and moon, several interesting things happen. For one, the gravitational force difference between the far end of the moon and the far end is large enough to squeeze the moon into a sort of oval, its barely visible but its there. Imagine attaching a rope to the edge of a ball of play-do and swinging it around you, this is sort of how that would work. Its not a perfect analogy but it should get the point across.

What this change in shape does is change how the moon interacts with earths gravity. Imagine in this case attaching a rope to the "pointy end" of a football and swinging it around you. As you can imagine, no matter the position of the football when you start, it will always end up correcting itself and face a certain direction towards you. It may wobble and change orientation slightly (even the moon does this, depending on the time we may be able to see a bit of the rear face) but will always remain relatively stable. This has been observed in most cases of a moon orbiting a larger planet. Hope that helps!

The earth is a satellite around the sun, and it's not a perfect sphere either.

So ... I'm thinking the earth should have a hemisphere facing the sun -- global warming -- and a hemisphere facing away from the sun -- ice age.

Tidal Locking in action!

[Nuclear]

Originally Posted by Trapped

It still seems to me though, that if we are God "outside" of time and space watching the formation of the universe, then at the point in time that the universe was, say, 1,000,000 miles wide in its expansion, there would be a measurable center 500,000 miles from all edges, which would remain the center even as it all expands to where we are today.

Some say in the comments that the universe has always been infinite, even in the context of the big bang. If that's true, I can't wrap my head around it.

I agree the concept is really hard to comprehend and understand, and the idea of infinity in both math and science is probably one of the most fascinating.

There is an analogy though that helped me understand it quite a bit better though. The comments are correct, in the context of the big bang the universe is invite, always and forever, its the nature of this infinity that changes.

Essentially prior to the big bang, what you have is a singularity of infinite density and infinite mass, but zero (and I mean absolute zero space). When this singularity "opens" for lack of better terminology, it shifts to infinite space of infinite mass but a finite density. The only thing that changes after this point in time is the density.

Essentially, imagine a theoretical ruler, one that is infinite in length. Then imagine a standard inch on it. Each inch is subdivided into 1/12", 2/12", 3/12" and so on. Now, imagine a force stretching this inch to double its original length, doing it to every inch along the ruler simultaneously. Each subdivision is twice as far apart as it was before, but has the length of the ruler itself changed?

No, it was infinite in length before, and it is still infinite now despite each part that makes it up being twice as long. Now just imagine each subdivision being a particle or piece of mass, and you essentially have a picture of universal expansion without an edge.

The cone analogy that you often see doesn't describe the edge of the universe in that sort of sense, think of it more like a description of density change.

[Nuclear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The earth is a satellite around the sun, and it's not a perfect sphere either.

So ... I'm thinking the earth should have a hemisphere facing the sun -- global warming -- and a hemisphere facing away from the sun -- ice age.

Tidal Locking in action!

Your actually right on this one! Both the moon and the sun both exert Tidal Locking on the earth, but as you can imagine, the moon is not nearly at doing it to the extent as we are to the moon. The sun also exerts a similar force but because of the massive distance between us and the sun, the difference between the far edge of our planet and the close edge is not significant to have a noticeable affect, but it is measurable. Its essential to understand that these sorts of forces happen over astronomical periods of time. For this very reason earths day becomes longer by 15 microseconds every year, but at this rate the Sun becomes a red giant and engulfs the planet before we ever reach that sort of synchronous orbit.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

Your actually right on this one! Both the moon and the sun both exert Tidal Locking on the earth, but as you can imagine, the moon is not nearly at doing it to the extent as we are to the moon. The sun also exerts a similar force but because of the massive distance between us and the sun, the difference between the far edge of our planet and the close edge is not significant to have a noticeable affect, but it is measurable. Its essential to understand that these sorts of forces happen over astronomical periods of time. For this very reason earths day becomes longer by 15 microseconds every year, but at this rate the Sun becomes a red giant and engulfs the planet before we ever reach that sort of synchronous orbit.

Perhaps God intervened to get the earth spinning correctly in Gen 1.3-5?

[Nuclear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps God intervened to get the earth spinning correctly in Gen 1.3-5?

Its certainly possible and there are theories that earths rotational speed has been changed due to impacts with other solar and interstellar bodies, how you choose to interpret these events is up to you I suppose.

As far as what has been currently determined is that the earth's day was 5 hours long during early formation, whether this is from angular momentum or other events is still up for debate, but tidal locking has slowed it to the approximately 24 hours that it is now.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

I agree the concept is really hard to comprehend and understand, and the idea of infinity in both math and science is probably one of the most fascinating.

There is an analogy though that helped me understand it quite a bit better though. The comments are correct, in the context of the big bang the universe is invite, always and forever, its the nature of this infinity that changes.

Essentially prior to the big bang, what you have is a singularity of infinite density and infinite mass, but zero (and I mean absolute zero space). When this singularity "opens" for lack of better terminology, it shifts to infinite space of infinite mass but a finite density. The only thing that changes after this point in time is the density.

Essentially, imagine a theoretical ruler, one that is infinite in length. Then imagine a standard inch on it. Each inch is subdivided into 1/12", 2/12", 3/12" and so on. Now, imagine a force stretching this inch to double its original length, doing it to every inch along the ruler simultaneously. Each subdivision is twice as far apart as it was before, but has the length of the ruler itself changed?

No, it was infinite in length before, and it is still infinite now despite each part that makes it up being twice as long. Now just imagine each subdivision being a particle or piece of mass, and you essentially have a picture of universal expansion without an edge.

The cone analogy that you often see doesn't describe the edge of the universe in that sort of sense, think of it more like a description of density change.

Okay, I understand the ruler analogy. Thanks. But this would mean the universe went from absolute zero space to infinite space in a nanonanonanonanonanosecond? It seems strange there is no interim where the universe is 1 foot across, then 10 miles across, then 1,000, then 1,000,000, etc.

Can you have infinite space and infinite mass? It seems if this was the case then density would always be 1, or at least unchanging. If the universe is expanding wouldn't it by definition be getting less dense? Or does its infinite nature undo that?

(Infinity in math is a mind-blower......like all the even and odd numbers to infinity is the same as just all the odd numbers to infinity. One is a subset of the other, but they are still the same in "quantity").

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Okay, I understand the ruler analogy. Thanks. But this would mean the universe went from absolute zero space to infinite space in a nanonanonanonanonanosecond? It seems strange there is no interim where the universe is 1 foot across, then 10 miles across, then 1,000, then 1,000,000, etc.

Can you have infinite space and infinite mass? It seems if this was the case then density would always be 1, or at least unchanging. If the universe is expanding wouldn't it by definition be getting less dense? Or does its infinite nature undo that?

(Infinity in math is a mind-blower......like all the even and odd numbers to infinity is the same as just all the odd numbers to infinity. One is a subset of the other, but they are still the same in "quantity").

As a young Catholic kid I struggled with infinity. Like how old is God, and what was God doing all that time before creation? My young brain would finally explode, and I would give up. Now I distinguish between eternal life and everlasting life. Eternal life is timeless, and everlasting life is time without ending. I don't know if it's true, but at least my brain stopped exploding.

[awareness]

Talk about science scratching their heads, they don't even know what they are scratching :

"You could call together all the brainiest people who are alive now or have ever lived and endow them with the complete sum of human knowledge and they could not between them make a single living cell,

"The most extraordinary thing in the universe is inside your head. You could travel through every inch of outer space and very possibly nowhere find anything as marvellous and complex and high-functioning as the three pounds of spongy mass between your ears.

The great paradox of the brain is that everything you know about the world is provided to you by an organ that has itself never seen that world.

The brain exists in silence and darkness, like a dungeoned prisoner. It has no pain receptors – literally no feelings. It has never felt warm sunshine or a soft breeze.

To your brain, the world is just a stream of electrical pulses, like taps of Morse code. And out of this bare and neutral information it creates for you – quite literally creates – a vibrant, three-dimensional, sensually engaging universe.

Your brain is you. Everything else is just plumbing and scaffolding.

Just sitting quietly, doing nothing at all, your brain churns through more information in 30 seconds than the Hubble Space Telescope has processed in 30 years."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...uman-body.html