1,000 Years of Outer Darkness

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

There are two types of sincere believer's in Christ; Apollos and Paul.

Paul knew the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Apollos only knew of John's baptism (Acts 18:25)

Jesus is calling those whom have not received the promise of the Holy Spirit in faith to overcome by faith. It's a daily battle for every believer in Christ.

God's children already born of His spirit cannot fall away as there is nothing that will snatch us out of His hand (Jn 10:28).

So yes, some can loose faith and fall away (2 Thess 2:3) into outer darkness and then there are those already sealed with the deposit of the spirit that guarantees eternal life. (Eph 1:13)

Jo, I was just looking at 2 Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It seems like the 'that day' referred to here is the day the Lord comes back, from above in verse 1.

The 'falling away' seems to me to be referring to a type of veil or curtain....not referring to believers nor their faith, as the 'falling away' reveals the son of perdition. Then verse 4 talks about who this son of perdition is. It is the devil, yeah?

Vs 4. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called god, or that is worshipped; so that he as god sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is god.

Isn't that one a false god, one who wishes he was God, but is not. That is Satan, isn't it? Paul goes on to speak further on this revealing, in 2 vs 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Paul is not discussing a falling away of believers in this letter. He is lauding the Thesselonians for their faith was growing exceedingly, their love was abounding all to each other, their patience and faith was enduring through all their persecutions and tribulations. 1:1-4

Maybe 'that day' in 2:3 was the day of the Lord recompensing tribulation to them that troubled the Thessalonian believers in 1:6

I just don't see any reference to believers falling from faith here. He is encouraging the Thessalonians in their ways, their love, their endurance. Later in the letter he teaches them how to behave toward those brothers who would not work or support themselves. They were disorderly, Paul called them busybodies.

By the way, thank you for verse references for me to look into. It only encourages me to get into the word and I am thankful for open discussion. It is such a far cry from 'fellowship' LC style. I will take Pauls' blessing to the Thess. saints for us today....And the Lord direct OUR hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Jo, I was just looking at 2 Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

PAUL IS WARNING THEM NOT TO BE ALARMED BY RUMORS THAT THE DAY OF THE 2 COMING OF CHRIST HAS STARTED. THAT FIRST THE COMING AWAY, OR APOSTASY OR REBELLION WILL COME FIRST AS A SIGN. THAT IS THE APPEARING OF ANTICHRIST.

It seems like the 'that day' referred to here is the day the Lord comes back, from above in verse 1. YES.

The 'falling away' seems to me to be referring to a type of veil or curtain....not referring to believers nor their faith, as the 'falling away' : IT IS REBELLION, APOSTASY, DEPARTURE FROM TRUTH

Then verse 4 talks about who this son of perdition is. It is the devil, yeah? NOT EXACTLY IT IS ANTICHRIST

Vs 4. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called god, or that is worshipped; so that he as god sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is GOD. Isn't that one a false god, one who wishes he was God, but is not. That is Satan, isn't it? IT'S ANTICHRIST

Paul goes on to speak further on this revealing, in 2 vs 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming. THE LORD DESTROYS ANTICHRIST.

Paul is not discussing a falling away of believers in this letter. NO HE IS NOT

He is lauding the Thesselonians for their faith was growing exceedingly, their.... YES

I just don't see any reference to believers falling from faith here. YES, CORRECT.

He is encouraging the Thessalonians in their ways, their love, their endurance. YES.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Jo, I was just looking at 2 Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;......

I admit, I've never heard this interpretation before. I'm curious, is this what the LC teach regarding the falling away?...

So the approach to exegetical biblical interpretation is the premise that scripture interprets scripture. Chances are certain narratives are repeated multiple times throughout the bible so they can be compared and a proper and consistent understanding can be derived from that.

So in terms of 2 Thessalonians 2, what I do first is look for the term in the original language and then look for other verses concerning an end times "falling away". Then I compare them to find it's meaning.

The Greek for "falling away" is "apostasia"

What I come up with is Matthew 24:10 where Jesus talks about the signs of his 2nd coming and a falling away.

"Apostasia" is the term found both in Matthew and Thessalonica.

The definition of apostasy is; a renunciation of the truth.

So the thought here is that one can't renounce something that they never knew was true in the first place. It implies that this is speaking of those that knew about the truth (Jesus Christ) yet ended up abandoning him in the end.

Another verse to support this thought is 1 Timothy 1:19...

On the other hand you have eisegetical biblical interpretation and it is a subjective interpretation where one's own worldview is imposed over the text. It ends up usually adding something to the text that is not there or taking away.

In the case of the interpretation you presented, the object of a "veil" is being added to the text. A veil isn't something that's explicitly mentioned in the verse but is added through presupposition that this verse is an analogy rather than a literal statement.

I can see how it's easy to do that because the terminology used there, "falling away" and "reveal", can easily paint such a picture. But the error comes from not looking at the original language to see the context of the word that was translated.

Now even with exegesis, you can go in circles all day but it's the safer method when interpreting scripture.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I admit, I've never heard this interpretation before. I'm curious, is this what the LC teach regarding the falling away?...

So the approach to exegetical biblical interpretation is the premise that scripture interprets scripture. Chances are certain narratives are repeated multiple times throughout the bible so they can be compared and a proper and consistent understanding can be derived from that.

So in terms of 2 Thessalonians 2, what I do first is look for the term in the original language and then look for other verses concerning an end times "falling away". Then I compare them to find it's meaning.

The Greek for "falling away" is "apostasia"

What I come up with is Matthew 24:10 where Jesus talks about the signs of his 2nd coming and a falling away.

"Apostasia" is the term found both in Matthew and Thessalonica.

The definition of apostasy is; a renunciation of the truth.

So the thought here is that one can't renounce something that they never knew was true in the first place. It implies that this is speaking of those that knew about the truth (Jesus Christ) yet ended up abandoning him in the end.

Another verse to support this thought is 1 Timothy 1:19...

On the other hand you have eisegetical biblical interpretation and it is a subjective interpretation where one's own worldview is imposed over the text. It ends up usually adding something to the text that is not there or taking away.

In the case of the interpretation you presented, the object of a "veil" is being added to the text. A veil isn't something that's explicitly mentioned in the verse but is added through presupposition that this verse is an analogy rather than a literal statement.

I can see how it's easy to do that because the terminology used there, "falling away" and "reveal", can easily paint such a picture. But the error comes from not looking at the original language to see the context of the English word used by the translators.

Now even with exegesis, you can go in circles all day but it's the safer method when interpreting scripture.

Ok, so, to explain my situation, I would say I am just now learning how to read Gods'word. I am not assuming analogy was used here, but just trying to read the verse in context of the rest of the letter. I read the epistle to the Thessalonians several time this morning trying to see the subject of the letter and the whole picture of what Paul is trying to convey. I don't think myself above making MANY mistakes interpreting scripture. And I would love to study the word using the original authors intent through knowing original language and their definitions. How do I do this? Even the concept of having presuppositions which we bring with us, and misapply to the word is new to me. I know we are susceptible to doing it, but I don't think I am here. I was just trying to interpret the letter as a whole. And yes, I agree, the text does not explicitly say veil.

I didn't have any 'religious' education to get presuppositions from, really. I would call my primary family uninvolved with God. Then I received Christ a very young adult, then immediately into the LC. I cannot even stomach TV ministers, so I have no belief 'system' that I 'come from', if that makes any sense. And I choose now to reject EVERYTHING LC. If I can identify it!

So I now wonder this, apostasia is to renounce the truth.....if the antichrist knew the truth of Christ, but is working against Gods will in the world, for all men to come to the saving knowledge of Christ, couldn't the apostasy in Thess. be referring to the antichrists' own apostasy?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

So I now wonder this, apostasia is to renounce the truth.....if the antichrist knew the truth of Christ, but is working against Gods will in the world, for all men to come to the saving knowledge of Christ, couldn't the apostasy in Thess. be referring to the antichrists' own apostasy?

I see. Well, my short answer would be this; In 2 Thess 2:3 the apostasy is alluding to a future event that has not yet come and since Satan has long apostatized, or rejected the truth, it's couldn't be referring to him.

If you go on further to verses 2 Thess 2:10-12, it's referring not to a single person but plural "they" referring to a group of people.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

And I choose now to reject EVERYTHING LC. If I can identify it!

Very good!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I see. Well, my short answer would be this; In 2 Thess 2:3 the apostasy is alluding to a future event that has not yet come and since Satan has long apostatized, or rejected the truth, it's couldn't be referring to him.

If you go on further to verses 2 Thess 2:10-12, it's referring not to a single person but plural "they" referring to a group of people.



Very good!

Jo, I see the plural group you referenced. I read them as unbelievers because of the way Paul described them. They are 'them that perish', they received not the love of the truth, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, they all might be damned who believe not the truth, they had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Then immediately following this description of 'them', Paul contrasts with his thankfulness for the saints who are brethren beloved of the Lord, chosen of God to salvation, through sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.

But I think I see what you are saying, that the plural them, the damned group, you see as once knowing the truth and having fallen away because of the translation of apostasia? That they must be fallen believers? Am I understanding your position correctly?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

But I think I see what you are saying, that the plural them, the damned group, you see as once knowing the truth and having fallen away because of the translation of apostasia? That they must be fallen believers? Am I understanding your position correctly?

Yes, you're correct. And I mean believers in the sense of having knowledge of the truth but are unregenerate. When the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is removed these believers will eventually fall away from the true gospel and into deceitful doctrines taught by demons.(1 Tim 4:1).

An example of this would be what Paul alludes to here in 2 Thess 2:9-10;

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing."

Christ first talked about this in Matthew 7:22;

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?"

So here is an example that shows that in the end-times there will be professing Christians who prophesy and even preform miracles in Jesus's name yet are cast away from his presence not ever actually having known the truth.

It's scary to think that in the last days there will be individuals outwardly professing Christ and preforming miracles yet they won't be empowered by the Holy Spirit but by Satan.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, you're correct. And I mean believers in the sense of having knowledge of the truth but are unregenerate. When the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is removed these believers will eventually fall away from the true gospel and into deceitful doctrines taught by demons.(1 Tim 4:1).

You seem to think that this "falling away" will only occur in the future, at some definite point.

I agree some of this will occur. The coming "mark of the beast" will be a definite turning point for the people of God. It will be a test many will fail.

But the verse above mentions "doctrines of demons." One example given is "forbidding to marry." (I Tim 4.3) Rome has long forbidden their priests to marry, with much corruption resulting (e.g. pedophilia). Has not this part of the "falling away" been going on for centuries?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, you're correct. And I mean believers in the sense of having knowledge of the truth but are unregenerate. When the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is removed these believers will eventually fall away from the true gospel and into deceitful doctrines taught by demons.(1 Tim 4:1).


It's scary to think that in the last days there will be individuals outwardly professing Christ and preforming miracles yet they won't be empowered by the Holy Spirit but by Satan.

The last days and now. Or maybe these are the last days. Because those you just described is really what I experienced in the LC. They came to me in the name of my Jesus, but practiced hiding the truth, and covering over of the sinful reality, deceiving me in all manner of things and ways. They even claimed shunning us was following the Holy Spirit. But the Lord did anything but shun me afterwards, and I have come to believe that they are being led by a false spirit, not the Spirit of Christ.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

But I think I see what you are saying, that the plural them, the damned group, you see as once knowing the truth and having fallen away because of the translation of apostasia? That they must be fallen believers? Am I understanding your position correctly?

Would not evolution be part of an apostasia? At the heart of evolution is the denial of God. If nature teaches us of God (Romans 1.18-23), then all those who believe evolution, denying the existence of God, are part of the "falling away."