Intro of an ex "Church Kid"

[kappagamma]

I have lurked here sporadically over the years but decided to join more recently. I prefer the anonymity of this site to that of Facebook as, given that my family is still very much involved, I don't feel the freedom currently to be a public voice of dissent. In truth, while some of the current speaking points (Casteel letter) apply very directly to my own experience, some do not and I don't feel it is my place to speak to any of those - only to listen and to believe the individuals that do come forward.

I grew up in what I believed at the time to be a fairly strict LC household but as I've come to hear of other experiences it was not as strict as I once thought. I was required to attend every Sunday, as well summer school of truths, conferences, and even semi-annuals when I was older. I lived in a sisters house a few years in college and attended FTT-Anaheim for two years. I would say that I was marginally in the CL until the FTT. It was there that most of the issues that I had came to the forefront and I, from that point, couldn't ignore it anymore and made my eventual (but quiet) exit. To me it was just another religion and, having been taught my whole life religion was bad... well, there you have it. Really intrigued to know if there are others here who have been through the FTT and found it to remove a veil rather than adding one?

I have a lot of trouble with some of the accusations made against the LC - either because they are before my time or presented too vaguely to carry the necessary weight to resonate with me... or they don't match the sentiment that I have from being raised in this environment as opposed to those who chose it for themselves in adulthood. Being raised this way is very different and the beliefs instilled from youth are ingrained into who we are - it's not as easy as just leaving a movement. You literally are removing threads from the fabric of your identity. I am not sure, for that reason, that this forum is particularly the right place for me or not but it's better than nothing.

That being said I am very happy to have left this movement, even at some personal cost, and have some basic reasons:
1) Witness Lee died a long time ago. We were fed the line "standing on shoulders" year after year after year and I am highly skeptical that circa 1997 the "high peak" was reached and there is no growth/revelation left to attain. It has been 22 years. The world has changed, technology has changed, but God hasn't? I don't think so.
2) Women's roles in LC (and beyond). I'm sorry, I don't buy it. I am not a second class citizen. The suppression of women is not my thing and I'm not going to be complacent about it. I can't belong to an organization that silences and suppresses and demeans half (or more) of it's population.
3) Performance. I've known - and been myself- one who knew what to say and how to say it and when to say it in meetings of the LC and felt nothing on the inside. No thanks. I don't want to belong to an organization that says they are outside of religion and culture but very clearly has one all of its own. We all know it does. We all know what we are supposed to do and say or not do and not say. Fake. I don't like acting and didn't want to do it anymore.
4) Suppression of identity. This ties to #3 some but I would say that I feel like a shell of the person I'm supposed to be because individuality was so suppressed. Is this sentiment shared by anyone else? I feel so damaged being raised in this environment.
5) Purity culture. Unhealthy level of separation between male/female. I'm not saying that a church has should embrace immorality but there are healthy ways to teach interaction between the sexes and unhealthy ones. LC doesn't do it right and the impact it has had within the LC and other evangelical groups is real and documented. Really good books out there to read on this subject.

I know there have been some stories of truly horrific experiences that have been briefly hinted at here and on facebook posts as of late. Those are not my experience and no one has made any of those statements directly to me so I can't speak to those but I believe them to be true. This, however, is my story. It's more boring than some but I'm still happy to have left and hope that the current wave of malcontent helps solidify thought & action in others the way it has for me. Even if no one else leaves the LC because of it, if it provides some peace for those of us who have left then that is a good thing, too.

[Raptor]

Hi and welcome, ...I sent you a message to your inbox....

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I have a lot of trouble with some of the accusations made against the LC - either because they are before my time or presented too vaguely to carry the necessary weight to resonate with me... or they don't match the sentiment that I have from being raised in this environment as opposed to those who chose it

That being said I am very happy to have left this movement, even at some personal cost,

Hi there,
Thanks for sharing. I am a sister in Christ who was led to Christ my /our Savior through some saints in the LC at my job in 1975. For the most part my experience in the LC was a positive one although l learned very early on to watch my p’s and q’s. My tenure there was only 4/5 years. I left quietly too by moving to a different locality. I felt l had stopped learning and growing spiritually in addition to getting tired of hearing about the oracle of God, WL. Much of what so many people experienced does not resonate with me either. But l believe l sensed even back then something was a miss as l never wanted to invite anyone to a meeting. I led several people to Christ but not to the LC.

Your reasons for leaving make a lot of sense. May you grow stronger in Christ as you forge ahead in this world.

Blessings be upon you.

[Weighingin]

Thank you, kappagamma, for your contribution. I appreciate hearing from those who grew up as church kids. I am an older one who came when I was 19. It took me a long time to realize the shortcomings though I had a lot of bothering over the years.
I too have that same situation of family members and other dear ones still into the program there.
I appreciated too your appraisal of Jo's writing from your experience.
Please stay and keep contributing as you can.

[awareness]

I share in your joy kappagamma, and am happy you found your way out. I sure hope many others find their way out too.

Blessings sister. Thanks for sharing.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

Really intrigued to know if there are others here who have been through the FTT and found it to remove a veil rather than adding one?

While I don't have hard evidence, I can just add to the mix anecdotally. Graduated FTT trainees have told me "you'd be surprised how many people leave the church after going to the training."

Originally Posted by kappagamma

Being raised this way is very different and the beliefs instilled from youth are ingrained into who we are - it's not as easy as just leaving a movement. You literally are removing threads from the fabric of your identity. I am not sure, for that reason, that this forum is particularly the right place for me or not but it's better than nothing.

This is very well said; you express yourself very well. I hope you stick around at least some and contribute. Many church kids need to hear from other church kids.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

That being said I am very happy to have left this movement, even at some personal cost, and have some basic reasons:
1) Witness Lee died a long time ago. We were fed the line "standing on shoulders" year after year after year and I am highly skeptical that circa 1997 the "high peak" was reached and there is no growth/revelation left to attain. It has been 22 years. The world has changed, technology has changed, but God hasn't? I don't think so.

Based on the FB post pointing to the assertion that Lee actually plagiarized footnotes and insights from other authors without citing them, I have come to the conclusion that one reason he is passed off as "standing on others' shoulders" is to discourage everyone from reading other people's stuff so they don't find out that Lee did not come up with as much as he says he did!

Originally Posted by kappagamma

3) Performance. I've known - and been myself- one who knew what to say and how to say it and when to say it in meetings of the LC and felt nothing on the inside. No thanks. I don't want to belong to an organization that says they are outside of religion and culture but very clearly has one all of its own. We all know it does. We all know what we are supposed to do and say or not do and not say. Fake. I don't like acting and didn't want to do it anymore.

Every church kid understands this painfully well. We are, out of necessity, pros at acting and faking it.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

4) Suppression of identity. This ties to #3 some but I would say that I feel like a shell of the person I'm supposed to be because individuality was so suppressed. Is this sentiment shared by anyone else? I feel so damaged being raised in this environment.

Again, please stick around. If you have more to say on this, please say it. This is a big thing for so many church kids, both brothers and sisters, that I have talked to. It is one of the things that makes leaving so difficult. The entire local church culture, vocabulary, culture, and way of life becomes your identity. Leaving it forces you to face the terrifying reality that you are.......blank otherwise. It is not God's intention for us as human beings to be blank and empty shells. Even just speaking of how you feel damaged, expressing it with words, can help both yourself and others.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

5) Purity culture. Unhealthy level of separation between male/female. I'm not saying that a church has should embrace immorality but there are healthy ways to teach interaction between the sexes and unhealthy ones. LC doesn't do it right and the impact it has had within the LC and other evangelical groups is real and documented. Really good books out there to read on this subject.

Can you mention some of the books? My level of separation was damagingly overemphasized and continues to affect me to this day. It helps to know and see what healthy ways are.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

...I'm still happy to have left and hope that the current wave of malcontent helps solidify thought & action in others the way it has for me. Even if no one else leaves the LC because of it, if it provides some peace for those of us who have left then that is a good thing, too.

Glad you have a greater level of peace and that you decided to share your story.

Trapped

[HERn]

Hi KG! Thanks for posting. More than one-half of my grandkids our essentially LC church kids, but they are in a locality with less strict rules. The boys wear fades w really curley top hair, roller blade, and wear normal teenage clothes. I just spent a week with them and they never mentioned WL the LC or the LR, they did mention their YP meeting. Even though they are in the WL sect called the LC they are normal. I know three kids of one of WL grandchild that have left the recovery and seem to be doing well socially and emotionally. They post on FB, but are much younger than me. I don't know where they are spiritually.

[HERn]

My point was to encourage you not to give up, there are brothers and sisters in Christ (non-LC) that will care for you and help you make the transition out of the LC meat grinder. I'm still recovering from the recovery. The extraction is painful, but it does subside. I returned to a church where the pastors where true sheperds caring for the flock, rather than promoting the selling of books.

[RambleOn]

I, for one, appreciate that you didn't have to have experienced horrible trauma or abuse in order to still be dissatisfied and leave. Much more relatable. It sounds like some people have gone through some terrible ordeals in various LCs, but that wasn't what caused me to leave, nor was it the ugly scandals and skeletons in closets from decades ago. Those are important historical episodes to be sure, but they weren't directly relevant to my experience as an LCer, and I didn't know about most of them until I was already emotionally disconnected enough to begin researching on my own anyway.

I think it's refreshing for church kids like me to hear about people who simply came to the realization that they'd outgrown this particular movement, and just left. It's not a given that you'd need to be damaged in order to find leaving attractive. Because in speaking with some people who still do meet, that seems to be their appraisal of anyone who stops meeting, and especially of those who have been publicly speaking out. The default is to jump into ad hominem attacks in order to explain the negative experience. "I've always thought he seemed a little off," or "yes she's always struck me as a wounded soul..." And while, yes, many of us have gone through some tough experiences in life (find a group for whom that wouldn't be true), the presumption that the healthy default is to stay is itself an insidious form of social pressure, because who wants to admit to being all the nasty things they've always heard about others who have left before?

I remember a few years ago, EM was speaking at an international conference, and he told this anecdote of a young couple who had decided to stop meeting with the LCs, and EM had asked them why, and they had told him, "because we aren't happy here." EM said his response was, "well how about what makes God happy?" Talk about presumptuous, first of all, but secondly, I found that to be very telling, that people are to be expected to disregard their personal happiness and peace of mind for the benefit of the collective, on the basis of a strained interpretation of the proper ground of meeting. Then the more you learn about the divisiveness, lawsuits, attacks, quarantines, excommunications etc, the more you shake your head at the self-serving hypocrisy. God is made happy when his saints meet on the local ground, because that way there is nothing to divide them, and what that looks like is they are going to sue each other for assets, close down churches, and send in their own people to those cities, because that's "oneness." Double-plus-good.

Anyway, that's a tangent, but the point is, I think it's okay to simply say, You know I grew up meeting with the LCs, and I love many of the people there, but bottom line is I just wasn't happy, so I won't be going anymore.

[aron]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

The suppression of women is not my thing and I'm not going to be complacent about it. I can't belong to an organization that silences and suppresses and demeans half (or more) of it's population..

The self-serving hypocrisy of lauding female pioneers of the Little Flock/Lord's Recovery (Peace Wang, Dora Yu, ME Barber, Ruth Lee et al), all the while denying them similar current roles, should be called out. Repeatedly, loudly, and insistently: if "women are not allowed to teach" per Paul's dictum then why base "the three parts of man" on citations of Mary E. McDonough's "God's Plan of Redemption"? And similarly Jessie Penn-Lewis and Madame Guyon? Etc Etc?

http://marymcdonough.ccws.org/index.html

It seems clear that WL deliberately and systematically suppressed women (and Brothers We followed suit) for one reason - to eliminate half the potential rivals for power. It's a blatant power play - use them for acquisition and then toss them aside once they're no longer needed (and might pose a threat).

[kappagamma]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Can you mention some of the books? My level of separation was damagingly overemphasized and continues to affect me to this day. It helps to know and see what healthy ways are.

Trapped

Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free by Linda Kay Klein

link to the interview: https://www.npr.org/2018/09/18/64873...es-as-a-threat

This is the first one I read. I heard an interview with the author one day on the radio while I was driving to work and was left reeling. I had never heard the term "purity culture" before and was so grateful to hear that this was a thing and it explained so much of what I had struggled with even now married for almost a decade. While I had already stopped meeting physically several years ago this has played a large role in the inward shift away from the LC, and to be honest, probably any other evangelical group as well. I can't risk my children being subjected to the same thing. Therapy and learning what should have been learned a long time ago is the only thing I know of that has helped me so far to combat the reactions so many females raised this way have toward the opposite sex. Be it shame or the opposite I think both are indicative of this type of upbringing and result in religious trauma. There's some good info online if you search "purity culture."

[kappagamma]

Originally Posted by aron

This strikes a nerve with me. The self-serving hypocrisy of lauding women as pioneers of the LR (Peace Wang, Dora Yu, ME Barber - many more) whilst simultaneously denying them any meaningful current role is glaring and needs to be called out. If "women are not allowed to teach" per Paul's dictum then why base "the three parts of man" on citations of Mary McDonough?

It is clear to me that WL systematically repressed the women (and his Brothers We followed suit) for mainly one reason - to eliminate half the potential rivals for power.

I think you're seeing a lot of the Asian and southern United States (Texas) cultural influence that exists and continues to be perpetuated. Misogyny isn't new. But does it deserve a home in the church? I don't think so. Plus if you were one seeking power it gives you an automatic dominance. Can't remember who brought this to my attention but it should come as no surprise that after the "Me Too" movement began all of the sudden the little weekend conferences for sisters started up. Coincidence?

[aron]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

if you were one seeking power it gives you an automatic dominance. Can't remember who brought this to my attention but it should come as no surprise that after the "Me Too" movement began all of the sudden the little weekend conferences for sisters started up. Coincidence?

Right. A little something extra, to keep them pacified and in their place. If they don't get it, then spend a little more time explaining to them their "proper" role.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by RambleOn

I remember a few years ago, EM was speaking at an international conference, and he told this anecdote of a young couple who had decided to stop meeting with the LCs, and EM had asked them why, and they had told him, "because we aren't happy here." EM said his response was, "well how about what makes God happy?" Talk about presumptuous ...

Not a bad answer from EM. Apostle Paul said, "we are ambitious to be pleasing to Him." I would think all serious Christians would have this thought in mind.

What is presumptuous, however, is that the Recovery is pleasing to Him, or even worse, that only the Recovery is pleasing to Him. And that is EM's mindset, whether he says it of not.

[aron]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I would say that I was marginally in the CL until the FTT. It was there that most of the issues that I had came to the forefront and I, from that point, couldn't ignore it anymore and made my eventual (but quiet) exit. To me it was just another religion and, having been taught my whole life religion was bad... well, there you have it..

First, an observation - noting the recent spate of ones posting here & on FB who have gone thru 2 years of FTT and rejected God afterward.

A few related comments follow: the best thing the regulars on a Christian forum like this can do is resist the urge to say, "You poor thing - you threw out the good (Christ) with the bad (LR)". No, resist the urge to correct their course back to Christian ground. Their current ground may be as valid to them today as yours is to you. Receive them as a messenger from God - they did what they had to, to shake off an oppressive yoke. Amen.

Instead, ask yourself a question: is the LR really that bad, and that mentally pervasive, that one must reject Christianity in toto to get the voice of Lee out of their head? Perhaps that's what they're telling us here, at least in part.

And this may lead to a solution of sorts. Instead of pointing them back to the safe harbour of our treasured concepts, we can have a discussion of mutual discovery where we learn from them, and each other, and the Word, and they may be inspired to learn from us.

Let me give 4 examples, all of whom I've raised here before.

1. What if 'ekklesia' didn't mean 'church' in the NT Greek but rather meant 'assembly' or 'meeting'. ~Acts 19:41 "And with these words he dismissed the 'ekklesia' ".

2. What if 'God's economy' meant something entirely different from what Lee said it did? What if it meant something more like (re)distribution of material possessions, guided by faith? "To give is better than to receive" and "he with abundance had no extras, and him that lacked had no hunger"?

3. Related to (2), notice how Isaiah 60 and Revelation 21 and 22 both have the 'nations' streaming to the Holy Mountain with their riches/gifts? If the NJ is the [gentile] 'church' in glory, then who are the nations walking in its light? Who are the 'kings of the earth' bringing in their glory? (Rev 21:24; cf Isa 60:3,5). Lee said, "These are non-Christians/unbelievers" and I ask if that makes any sense at all?

4. What if the 4th gospel's repeated references to the 'Ioudeans' should be translated "Judeans" and not "Jews"? Jesus and John and Peter were Galileans and they were opposed, as such, by the Judeans. See e.g., Matt 26:69; Luke 23:6. But both parties were Jews.. get it?

In all this I'm not pointing to 'truths' per se but avenues for exploration. Anyone can do it. There are myriads of avenues in scripture waiting... if our readers see us in such explorations, some may be encouraged to do so as well. Are we going to spend the rest of our lives talking about others' failures (and our participation therein) or are we going to go forward? On such matters the question of the 'gospel' hinges.

(The above 4 questions were not meant to undergird some larger discussion- one could pick any of 40 or even 400 different questions. My point was, Anyone can do this. It's an invitation - "seek, and ye shall find..")

[kappagamma]

Originally Posted by aron

First, an observation - noting the recent spate of ones posting here & on FB who have gone thru 2 years of FTT and rejected God afterward.

Instead, ask yourself a question: is the LR really that bad, and that mentally pervasive, that one must reject Christianity in toto to get the voice of Lee out of their head? Perhaps that's what they're telling us here, at least in part.)

I had the thought recently, based on my own experience, that if there has been as significant an amount of damage as I believe has been done to “church kids” in regard to the reasonable development of the human soul (mind, emotion, will) and if you believe that the soul and spirit are so closely connected then I would think it would make sense that, until such time real healing of the humanity of the individual has taken place, a genuine access of the spiritual realm could be difficult. Not impossible sure, but could be difficult. I think of it as scar tissue that can restrict movement and activity. I don’t know for others but I think for me there is a crying out of “look at me as a person” “see me as who I am” “care about my humanity” and if the craving is for that and you are only fed something else then eventually the proverbial stomach recoils at what is offered.

I will say though that jumping into this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking that I have not had in many, many years. I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

[HERn]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I had the thought recently, based on my own experience, that if there has been as significant an amount of damage as I believe has been done to “church kids” in regard to the reasonable development of the human soul (mind, emotion, will) and if you believe that the soul and spirit are so closely connected then I would think it would make sense that, until such time real healing of the humanity of the individual has taken place, a genuine access of the spiritual realm could be difficult. Not impossible sure, but could be difficult. I think of it as scar tissue that can restrict movement and activity. I don’t know for others but I think for me there is a crying out of “look at me as a person” “see me as who I am” “care about my humanity” and if the craving is for that and you are only fed something else then eventually the proverbial stomach recoils at what is offered.

I will say though that jumping into this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking that I have not had in many, many years. I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

You could check out Bible Hub or other online resources. They have many versions and other resources online, even a way to go to the original Greek or Hebrew word for study. I really like reading different versions of the NT, but for me they must be without footnotes. Right now I'm reading the Williams NT. The reason I like different versions is because it helps me not to gloss over the words when I read a version I've read for years. Sometimes I found myself realizing I had read a whole paragraph while thinking of something else. When I read a different version my mind pays more attention and I'm more likely to talk or complain to the Lord about what I read. But, that might just be my quirk. I read for enjoyment. There is another book I read called "The Book of God" by Walter Wangerin. It's not really a translation, but a retelling of the bible focusing on the characters. It's probably not something you read for doctrine, but it really drew me into the lives of Abraham and Sarah. Abraham had God's promise, but he had to wait for something like 50 years! Can you imagine Sarai's shock when Abram said God told me to take the family to a land I don't even know how to get to? Can you imagine the conversations those two must have had? Eventually God changed their names to Sarah and Abraham, and even though they had God's promise Sarah says to Abraham I'm never going to have a child so take my servant girl Hagar and make us an heir. Sometime later Sarah chastised Abraham for the very thing she encouraged. In spite of this the Lord blessed them. We all have a human story in our journey with the Lord, for me it's really fun to understand that others before me had to learn to live with God's unfulfilled promises. Anyway, that's just how I roll.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free by Linda Kay Klein

link to the interview: https://www.npr.org/2018/09/18/64873...es-as-a-threat

Thanks for this link kappagamma. I found it both interesting and informative :

"Memoirist: Evangelical Purity Movement Sees Women's Bodies As A 'Threat'"

In their defense, they get that women's bodies are a threat from the Bible.

But I think it is way past and high time that we break free from the patriarchal ways of the long ago ancient days, ways, and cultures, of antiquity.

After all, those were the days when the kings were considered God's representative on earth -- Caesar Augustus was said to be god -- ... and well ... that is what Lee was suppose to be. So maybe there's a link between those claiming to be God, or His one and only rep. and spokesperson, and the oppression of women in general.

I hold little hope for those adhering strictly and literally to the Bible to break free of the old patriarchal ways. All my life I seen what the Bible does to women (they are all Eve's -- that are to blame for Jesus having to die on the cross). In fact, there have been times, in my recent past, when my jaw has literally dropped at witnessing it from the preacher toward a sister(s). It's down right freaky in my book ; it's way too fanatical for my taste. And they don't want to hear : "In Christ there's no male or female." I've tried it.

As I see it, the only way for a sister to get free, gain self respect, and a healthy view of herself, is to walk away from such groups. In general, cults are brutal towards girls and women. Flee them ASAP.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I had the thought recently, based on my own experience, that if there has been as significant an amount of damage as I believe has been done to “church kids” in regard to the reasonable development of the human soul (mind, emotion, will) and if you believe that the soul and spirit are so closely connected then I would think it would make sense that, until such time real healing of the humanity of the individual has taken place, a genuine access of the spiritual realm could be difficult. Not impossible sure, but could be difficult. I think of it as scar tissue that can restrict movement and activity. I don’t know for others but I think for me there is a crying out of “look at me as a person” “see me as who I am” “care about my humanity” and if the craving is for that and you are only fed something else then eventually the proverbial stomach recoils at what is offered.

I think this is an astute observation.

How are you supposed to feel love and understanding by your heavenly Father when your own father prioritizes the meetings over you?

How are you supposed to have a relationship with a God that is good when you are told He will arrange for a mac truck to hit you if you backslide (i.e. be a human being)?

How are you supposed to want to approach a God who you are told doesn't want you to enjoy having hobbies and do anything other than sit in a room and "receive the dispensing"?

How are you supposed to want to talk to a God who gave you musical talent only to be told you cannot express it on anything other than a tiny boring subset of Lee-related music that brings you to tears in its mind-numbing dullness?

How can you feel comfortable coming to a God and telling Him the desires of your heart if you are told He can't stand to be around you unless you are covered in Christ?

How are you supposed to want to read the word and use your God-given faculties in having a sober mind to discern His speaking and your own situations when you are told to get out of your mind and that your mind = death?

I could go on but I just get mad.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I will say though that jumping into this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking that I have not had in many, many years. I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

I have a different Bible version by my bed now but it is still hard for me to want to reach for it. So many years of it being a dry book full of meaningless footnote explanations has made it currently difficult for me to read. When I do read it, though, as HERn said the different version really helps me pay attention to what is actually being said. If you get the inclination again to buy a Bible I do recommend it. At least you will then have it immediately available when you want to read it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

"Memoirist: Evangelical Purity Movement Sees Women's Bodies As A 'Threat'"

In their defense, they get that women's bodies are a threat from the Bible.

***********************

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by awareness

In their defense, they get that women's bodies are a threat from the Bible.

Harold, only someone who gets his biblical theology from Google, Wikipedia and National Public Radio would ever utter such nonsense. The Bible teaches no such thing. The New Testament teaches no such thing. I definitely can see where our dear women/sisters who have been in the Local Church of Witness Lee would have such a concept or understanding. After all, the Local Church is deeply steeped in ancient Chinese/Asian culture, and this kind of understanding/concepts/tradition definitely comes out of the Asian culture. And yes, such a view of women and their socioreligous status/function has definitely influenced certain Christian traditions since the beginning...but the influences are not coming from the Scriptures, but from the sinful and selfish hearts and minds of ignorant people. Sometimes these sinful, selfish and ignorant people just happen to be Christian men.

I hold little hope for those adhering strictly and literally to the Bible to break free of the old patriarchal ways. All my life I seen what the Bible does to women (they are all Eve's -- that are to blame for Jesus having to die on the cross

Whether one adheres strictly and literally to the Bible is irrelevant to anything you are saying. THE BIBLE TEACHES NO SUCH THING. The Gospel never even faintly implies that women "are to blame for Jesus having to die on the cross". Where did you come up with such silly nonsense? Did your acting god Bart Ehrman put this into your little head? Maybe Witness Lee taught such a thing, but that would be just another good reason this forum exists.
-

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Where did you come up with such silly nonsense? that: "women.....are to blame for Jesus having to die on the cross".
-

it probably comes from using steroids to push the thought that Eve partook of the TKGE first, tricked Adam and therefore caused the fall, forcing Jesus to come and die to for us. But where was Adam when the serpent came knocking? ....watching the game? He should have taken the lead to eat the ToL first, given some to Eve, and then trampled on the head of the serpent when it peeked through the door....

Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

By the way UntoHim....you have a private message.....

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

???????????????????????????????????

I had a post similar to UntoHim's post, but I deleted it.


It's just getting old bro. Just getting old ...........................

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Where did you come up with such silly nonsense? Did your acting god Bart Ehrman put this into your little head? Maybe Witness Lee taught such a thing, but that would be just another good reason this forum exists.
-

I came up with it from long ago in the Southern Baptist church. And also, rather recently in the Church of Christ (Campbellites). I also heard it a year or so ago from a extended Southern Baptist family member. I have no clue if Ehrman ever addresses Eve in such away. Your pejorative dismissed, he's smarter than that. Plus, he's not an inerrantist. Not to say he hasn't textually critically examined women in the NT.

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I would say for this matter to be thoroughly determined would require its own thread. However, since LCD membership is mostly male, I doubt it'd get a balanced exposition.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I had the thought recently, based on my own experience, that if there has been as significant an amount of damage as I believe has been done to “church kids” in regard to the reasonable development of the human soul (mind, emotion, will) and if you believe that the soul and spirit are so closely connected then I would think it would make sense that, until such time real healing of the humanity of the individual has taken place, a genuine access of the spiritual realm could be difficult. Not impossible sure, but could be difficult. I think of it as scar tissue that can restrict movement and activity. I don’t know for others but I think for me there is a crying out of “look at me as a person” “see me as who I am” “care about my humanity” and if the craving is for that and you are only fed something else then eventually the proverbial stomach recoils at what is offered.

I will say though that jumping into this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking that I have not had in many, many years. I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

I completely relate. That care and love for the individual is absent in the LC. That kind of love and recognition we all long for. You come to be in a place where you are devalued. But you have to know that Father God values you so highly.....so highly His Son was our sacrifice.....the god of the LC is a complete misrepresentation being fed to all its' members....a different christ of a different gospel. Don't let it keep you from coming to the real Jesus, whose love is proven in the fact of His laying down His own life.

On a side note, I really like the KJVER. That's the king James version easy reader....you might also check out pastor Gene Kim and see his videos on why they stick to KJV exclusively. Pretty shocking how modern versions are stripping 'the Lord' out of the word. And other proof texts of Jesus divinity. Also the verses about the three witnesses on earth and the three witnesses in heaven....these verses present a picture of our 3in1 God, and most modern translations leave out a whole verse.....it's taking away, from what God ordered not be tampered with. May the true Christ draw you, restore you, love you and care for your humanity! Be blessed!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by awareness

I would say for this matter to be thoroughly determined would require its own thread. However, since LCD membership is mostly male, I doubt it'd get a balanced exposition.

Harold, in the interest of a healthy balance, I can give my experience....I HAVE heard such a teaching, from the LC, but I didn't receive it. Or believe into it....because I never, ever got that from the Lord, nor the word. And the discouragement doesn't come from just the LC denomination.....and it is not only meant for women. Satan would have us all, brothers and sisters alike, discouraged in such a way. But satan can sit under Jesus the Lords feet, where he belongs. Be encouraged, Harold! God is faithful when we cannot be. Bless you!

byHismercy

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

Have you seen https://biblehub.com/

You have 27 versions available. You can do all kinds of stuff, for example access one of the versions, or you can look up one verse, and get all 27 versions displaying that verse in a list. Plus greek and other tools.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

On a side note, I really like the KJVER. That's the king James version easy reader....you might also check out pastor Gene Kim and see his videos on why they stick to KJV exclusively. Pretty shocking how modern versions are stripping 'the Lord' out of the word. And other proof texts of Jesus divinity. Also the verses about the three witnesses on earth and the three witnesses in heaven....these verses present a picture of our 3in1 God, and most modern translations leave out a whole verse.....it's taking away, from what God ordered not be tampered with.

ByHisMercy, you really should examine both sides of this debate before you accept KJV exclusivity. I have confronted this debate for decades, and it pains me how much bad information about the Textus Receptus is used to create modern day superstitions.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

I came up with it from long ago in the Southern Baptist church. And also, rather recently in the Church of Christ (Campbellites). I also heard it a year or so ago from a extended Southern Baptist family member...

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Interesting how those looking for ammo to control and suppress others will cite Paul and not Jesus. My own take is this: Jesus offered freedom. Freedom from sin, from fear, alienation. Even death itself stood down.

And freedom was offered to all. And especially, to those who were pushed down.

Now, Paul came along, and had to remind these newly-liberated folks to respect established social convention. Women still had to respect their husbands, children their parents, slaves their masters. "Do not turn your freedom in Christ into an opportunity for societal upheaval & chaos". Peter also touched this theme: "Although we have but one king, Jesus, we respect the earthly kings who are here for our protection"

But 2,000 years later, social conventions have changed. Slavery is abolished, and women have equality. Except in some fundamentalist sects.

But if you think Christians have grounds for a two-tiered faith, look at Jesus with Martha and Mary. They were engaged and actualized peers, in every sense of the word. (Again, understand the social conventions of those times).

The implications of Mary/Martha/Lazarus and their relations with Jesus, apart from intermediaries like the Twelve, are often ignored, even studiously so. Mary's inferred to be a shy, wilting lily, the prototypical back-row sister... "Oh, she just loved the Lord". No, try again. You missed that one by a country mile. Your word "just" was snuck in, even deliberately, and has no place in that sentence. It's veiled and suppressive cult-speak.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by awareness

I came up with it from long ago in the Southern Baptist church. And also, rather recently in the Church of Christ (Campbellites). I also heard it a year or so ago from a extended Southern Baptist family member.

Excellent! Thank you for making my point for me. These notions do NOT come from the Bible. They come from the desperately wicked and evil heart of sinful and ignorant men. When taken as a whole, the Bible actually shows us quite an opposite portrayal and view of men and women, and their relationship to each other, and to God. The simple fact is that Witness Lee, in his teachings and established practices, continued on with a long line of Christian teachers that have corrupted the beautiful and godly relationship between men and women. Unfortunately, Lee and his followers have been quite successful in cloaking Chinese/Asian culture for "the God ordained way".

I would say for this matter to be thoroughly determined would require its own thread. However, since LCD membership is mostly male, I doubt it'd get a balanced exposition.

Good point. But happily, most of our newest members are women/sisters...so hang on to your hats fellows...the balance of power is about to be shifted around this ole popcorn stand
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Excellent! Thank you for making my point for me. These notions do NOT come from the Bible. They come from the desperately wicked and evil heart of sinful and ignorant men. When taken as a whole, the Bible actually shows us quite an opposite portrayal and view of men and women, and their relationship to each other, and to God. The simple fact is that Witness Lee, in his teachings and established practices, continued on with a long line of Christian teachers that have corrupted the beautiful and godly relationship between men and women. Unfortunately, Lee and his followers have been quite successful in cloaking Chinese/Asian culture for "the God ordained way".

Both in Jesus time, then with the apostles, and later throughout church history there always were those who twisted the scriptures (e.g. Mark 7.13; 2 Pet 2.16) for self-gain. Others would then come along and use these "twisters" to mis-characterize the bible and the whole church. Such a common ploy seems to be rampant in our culture.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Excellent! Thank you for making my point for me. These notions do NOT come from the Bible. They come from the desperately wicked and evil heart of sinful and ignorant men. When taken as a whole, the Bible actually shows us quite an opposite portrayal and view of men and women, and their relationship to each other, and to God. The simple fact is that Witness Lee, in his teachings and established practices, continued on with a long line of Christian teachers that have corrupted the beautiful and godly relationship between men and women. Unfortunately, Lee and his followers have been quite successful in cloaking Chinese/Asian culture for "the God ordained way".

Valid points brother. I think it's like slavery, where back in the mid-19th c. Southern Baptist's selected verses from the Bible to support the holding of slaves. BTW, the same cousin that said Eve is the reason Jesus had to die for our sins (when Paul blames it on Adam), is also the one that said God is judging America because we're not holding to His law, and the cruse of Ham, by not keeping blacks in slavery.

Basically, I guess, the Bible can be used to support anything ... including Chinese/Asian culture.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Good point. But happily, most of our newest members are women/sisters...so hang on to your hats fellows...the balance of power is about to be shifted around this ole popcorn stand -

I'm glad to see that. The forum needs the balance of female voices.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Valid points brother. I think it's like slavery, where back in the mid-19th c. Southern Baptist's selected verses from the Bible to support the holding of slaves. BTW, the same cousin that said Eve is the reason Jesus had to die for our sins (when Paul blames it on Adam), is also the one that said God is judging America because we're not holding to His law, and the cruse of Ham, by not keeping blacks in slaver

Basically, I guess, the Bible can be used to support anything ... including Chinese/Asian culture.




I'm glad to see that. The forum needs the balance of female voices.

Yuck, Harold.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ByHisMercy, you really should examine both sides of this debate before you accept KJV exclusivity. I have confronted this debate for decades, and it pains me how much bad information about the Textus Receptus is used to create modern day superstitions.

You are right to say I have only looked at one side of the debate. I took each version I had on my shelves and compared probably 15 or 20 verses against the KJV. I was really shocked at the differences, and what they did to alter the word.

The other side for me, was a testimony I saw and heard from a catholic-raised lady. She had an encounter with Jesus that converted her. Part of that story was her relating how one of her excuses to the Lord for her unbelief was the alteration of the word, the differences in translations, and her distrust of His word in these modern records. He told her it was His responsibility to uphold His truth. His word will not return to Him void! So I believe into His promise, and His ability to feed the milk and meat of the word where He intends it to go.

But after comparing the NKJV, NASB, ESV, (don't even get me started on the NIV, the Message bible) verse by verse to the KJV, I was convinced enough to get rid of all my other versions. I would be surprised to see my opinion change, however, that being said, I am open to learning more and looking at both sides, especially considering your remarks. I am sorry this grieves you, brother. What do you think about opening a separate thread on this subject, here? Or is there one already?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

You are right to say I have only looked at one side of the debate. I took each version I had on my shelves and compared probably 15 or 20 verses against the KJV. I was really shocked at the differences, and what they did to alter the word.

The other side for me, was a testimony I saw and heard from a catholic-raised lady. She had an encounter with Jesus that converted her. Part of that story was her relating how one of her excuses to the Lord for her unbelief was the alteration of the word, the differences in translations, and her distrust of His word in these modern records. He told her it was His responsibility to uphold His truth. His word will not return to Him void! So I believe into His promise, and His ability to feed the milk and meat of the word where He intends it to go.

But after comparing the NKJV, NASB, ESV, (don't even get me started on the NIV, the Message bible) verse by verse to the KJV, I was convinced enough to get rid of all my other versions. I would be surprised to see my opinion change, however, that being said, I am open to learning more and looking at both sides, especially considering your remarks. I am sorry this grieves you, brother. What do you think about opening a separate thread on this subject, here? Or is there one already?

ByHisMercy, the KJV in not the biblical standard by which you should compare other versions. Let me discuss a little of its history. On the one hand, King James assembled the best scholars of his day, the era of classical Shakesperean English. On the other hand, King James himself determined that his version would forever be the official "Authorized" English version. It was a work dedicated to the king in order to exalt the king of England for all time. Since the kings of England were the head of the church of England, they could outlaw other translations, which they did until the late 19th century. Let me quote some of the original introduction to the KJV:

To the most high and mightie Prince, James by the grace of God King of Great Britaine, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, &c. The translators of The Bible, wish Grace, Mercie, and Peace, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
reat and manifold were the blessings (most dread Soveraigne) which Almighty GOD, the Father of all Mercies, bestowed upon us the people of ENGLAND, when first he sent your Majesties Royall person to rule and raigne over us. For whereas it was the expectation of many, who wished not well unto our ZION, that upon the setting of that bright Occidentall Starre Queene ELIZABETH of most happy memory, some thicke and palpable cloudes of darkenesse would so have overshadowed this land, that men should have bene in doubt which way they were to walke, and that it should hardly be knowen, who was to direct the unsetled State: the appearance of your MAJESTIE, as of the Sunne in his strength, instantly dispelled those supposed and surmised mists, and gave unto all that were well affected, exceeding cause of comfort; especially when we beheld the government established in your HIGHNESSE, and your hopefull Seed, by an undoubted Title, and this also accompanied with Peace and tranquillitie, at home and abroad.

I have always found the ego and exaltation of King James to be a little sickening personally.

Thus, all translations of God's word should not be compared to the KJV, but to the best Greek Manuscript which scholarly Textural Critiques have provided, in lieu of the original autographs by the writers of the N.T. Concerning the N.T., God wrote in Greek. So every Bible Version we have in English is at best a translation from the Greek. Jesus Himself authorized translations of His word since He actually quote from the Greek Septuagint, and not from the Hebrew Scriptures.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

You are right to say I have only looked at one side of the debate. I took each version I had on my shelves and compared probably 15 or 20 verses against the KJV. I was really shocked at the differences, and what they did to alter the word.

The other side for me, was a testimony I saw and heard from a catholic-raised lady. She had an encounter with Jesus that converted her. Part of that story was her relating how one of her excuses to the Lord for her unbelief was the alteration of the word, the differences in translations, and her distrust of His word in these modern records. He told her it was His responsibility to uphold His truth. His word will not return to Him void! So I believe into His promise, and His ability to feed the milk and meat of the word where He intends it to go.

But after comparing the NKJV, NASB, ESV, (don't even get me started on the NIV, the Message bible) verse by verse to the KJV, I was convinced enough to get rid of all my other versions. I would be surprised to see my opinion change, however, that being said, I am open to learning more and looking at both sides, especially considering your remarks. I am sorry this grieves you, brother. What do you think about opening a separate thread on this subject, here? Or is there one already?

According to Paul :

KJV : "The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life
ESV : "For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
NET : "for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Strong's :
- kill:
ἀποκτείνω
apokteinō
ap-ok-ti'-no
From G575 and κτείνω kteinō (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively to destroy: - put to death, kill, slay.

- spirit :
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

- life :
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ByHisMercy
I have always found the ego and exaltation of King James to be a little sickening personally.

Me too, Ohio. I always rip that dedication page out. The holy word belongs to God first, then was gifted to every person by Him. It is for us all, and His testimony to us.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by awareness

According to Paul :

KJV : "The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life
ESV : "For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
NET : "for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Strong's :
- kill:
ἀποκτείνω
apokteinō
ap-ok-ti'-no
From G575 and κτείνω kteinō (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively to destroy: - put to death, kill, slay.

- spirit :
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

- life :
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

I have experienced the Lord as breath, breeze....physically. Once upon a time, He came to me when I needed a friend, needed a Father. When I was a little child, down on my knees, asking for Him. There is no God other than God the Father of Jesus!!

[aron]

If I was an unbeliever reading some of these posts I'd probably say, "I'm so glad I'm not a Christian!" Who wants to end up arguing over textual variants! Not that these posters are, but much of Christian discussion is about fluff. Vague, unprovable concepts, small data sets, ignorance and bias. I can still hear Witness Lee saying, "This means that" and, "This shows us that" and, "We must see that"... Assumption piled onto assumption.

"So subjective is my Christ in me..." yes so subjective. And who else would want your subjectivity as their de facto objective reality? No thanks!

Not speaking for kappagamma, but this was her thread, once.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I was required to attend every Sunday, as well summer school of truths, conferences, and even semi-annuals when I was older. I lived in a sisters house a few years in college and attended FTT-Anaheim for two years. I would say that I was marginally in the CL until the FTT. It was there that most of the issues that I had came to the forefront and I, from that point, couldn't ignore it anymore and made my eventual (but quiet) exit. To me it was just another religion and, having been taught my whole life religion was bad... well, there you have it. Really intrigued to know if there are others here who have been through the FTT and found it to remove a veil rather than adding one?

I think this is a valid objection and should be taken on face value. If the Lord's Recovery (LR) teaches that ALL religion is bad, and an ex "Church Kid" realizes that there's nothing in the LR for them, then why not ditch religion altogether?

1. Nobody can prove God exists.
2. Nobody can prove that God raised Jesus from the dead.
3. Nobody can prove that the blood of Jesus does cleanse you from sin.
4. Nobody can prove that there is consciousness after death, which needs forgiveness to avoid suffering, torment etc.

I mean, if the whole thing ends up arguing over declensions and the meaning of the word "nature", then why not just chuck it all? I think that's a pretty good argument.

In my case, I am a Christian because I chose to believe in God (a universe with God somehow seemed 'warmer' than a universe without God [sorry]), and I thought the narrative figure of 'Jesus' still remains the most compelling story of human history. If it wasn't true, I wish it were. So I believe.

The "church" I am less sanguine about. But Jesus as the route to God seems attractive to me. Sorta like your first teen-age crush - you can't really explain it but it just feels right. But why impose that on others!?! Either they get it or they don't. If they don't get it, let them be at peace! I mean, really! The "gospel" should not be about us imposing our neediness on others. Most of the LR-type "gospel" I see is just that. People "need" recruits because their masters at HQ are thumping the drum - revenues are down, growth is flat - go out there and sell, sell, sell! So they go out and impose themselves on weak-willed souls.

The gospel should be a display of power - the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. It should be so obvious. If there's any curtain-pulling moment where the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz is shown to be just a con man, well so be it (I think of WL's phone call to Sal Benoit - "It's MY business what I do with YOUR money!"). This includes Paul, Jesus, Peter, David, Moses. Everyone is on the dock. If Christianity is a sham, let's have it out on the table.

The gospel should also be a display of peace. Not speeches and rhetoric, but peace. Speech can be used, but speech can never displace peace. The gospel should be about love, patience, kindness etc. You know all the words. Get a Thesaurus. They are all there. Lastly it should be about joy. If I am unhappy because you're not a Christian, what kind of unbalanced, co-dependent 'happiness' am I seeking? Again, the majority of the Christian "gospel" I've been exposed to thus far lies in this vein: If you don't do what I want, then God won't be happy.

Oh, really!?! Get stuffed.

Jesus I'm still interested in. The rest, ...

[kappagamma]

Originally Posted by aron

Not speaking for kappagamma, but this was her thread, once.

I think this is a valid objection and should be taken on face value. If the Lord's Recovery (LR) teaches that ALL religion is bad, and an ex "Church Kid" realizes that there's nothing in the LR for them, then why not ditch religion altogether?

In my case, I am a Christian because I chose to believe in God (a universe with God somehow seemed 'warmer' than a universe without God [sorry]), and I thought the narrative figure of 'Jesus' still remains the most compelling story of human history. If it wasn't true, I wish it were. So I believe.

So. To be honest... there are a lot of posters in here that sound just like LC people. Same flavors. Just from a different store. It's ok. The dynamic experiences of a generation or two of people who CHOSE the LC were real to them and are valid and meaningful. Those (often) are not the experiences of "church kids" who choose to leave. Imagine being raised in that system without any of those dynamic experiences? How would you feel about Christianity? Being told your whole life this is reality and not seeing anything remotely real?

Also I will say that there's a lot of what sounds like victim blaming. If "church kids" leave I'd say that's the fault of the parents/CL society for not providing whatever it was that drew the first gen group to Jesus in the first place. If you aren't providing what drew you to your children you're feeding them something else. That's not the kids fault.
I regretted writing the bit about choosing a bible version because I figured it would result in a thread deviation. It's ironic because as a "church kid" I have a lot of bible knowledge, know a lot about different versions, and being quite a bit younger, know that I can find them all online. I am not putting down anyones responses though. The input is truly appreciated. Really, I'm not knocking it. I just meant that I was maybe willing to have one out on my bedside table and, since they cost a fair amount to have a nice one, I'm being picky about which new one I actually purchase. And, also being a "church kid" wouldn't you know I already own a few They just have lots of memories tied to them that I don't necessarily want sleeping next to me.

[Cal]

I know this is going to sound trite, but the problem isn't God or Jesus or the Bible or even "organization." The problem is people. People are all fallen, so any time you get involved with them there are going to be problems. (This includes any time you are involved only with yourself.)

And this includes people in no matter what venue. Just going to the grocery store can be a problem because you have to deal with people.

The trouble with people is that you can't live with them and you can't live without them. That's just the way it is. So the key is to get your relationship with the Main Person (God) in line, and then let him guide you in your interaction with people.

The whole problem with the LR is the defining parameters are all whacked. There is all this angst and worry about LEAVING the LR. ("Oh, horrors!") Of course you are going to have anxiety issues if you worry about things God doesn't worry about. (Strictly speaking, though God has concerns, he doesn't worry about anything.) Let me tell you, God is not much concerned about anyone leaving the LR. Okay? It's a false concern. Leave if you want to, stay if you want to, as God leads. People change churches all the time. It's not a big deal. And, usually parents want their kids to follow in their footsteps. That's normal and human. But there is no moral imperative there. It's your life. Who has the right to tell you where you should attend church? Like I said, it's a whacked LR parameter.

But realize you are never going to find the perfect set of peeps or relationships, spiritual or secular. People are fallen. Trust me, they have the same problem with you.

[aron]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

The dynamic experiences of a generation or two of people who CHOSE the LC were real to them and are valid and meaningful. Those (often) are not the experiences of "church kids" who choose to leave. Imagine being raised in that system without any of those dynamic experiences? How would you feel about Christianity? Being told your whole life this is reality and not seeing anything remotely real?

Absolutely fantastic bit of writing. People need to consider perspectives like this. Really, if there is any gospel, any good news, it needs to factor in these kinds of witnesses. Otherwise it is just "preaching to the choir" and has very little power to reach beyond itself.

kappagamma thank you.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

Also I will say that there's a lot of what sounds like victim blaming. If "church kids" leave I'd say that's the fault of the parents/CL society for not providing whatever it was that drew the first gen group to Jesus in the first place. If you aren't providing what drew you to your children you're feeding them something else. That's not the kids fault.

This also is important to consider. It has come to mind a few times recently. I SAW it in the Lord's Recovery but I coudn't really PROCESS what I saw.

What I've been considering on these same lines: here was this generation ('60s and '70s) that came into the LR, and would always tell each other and their children stories about leaving the RCC or the Baptists or SDA or whatever, because that experience was so deficient. Now, here they are "on the local ground" and "just enjoying Christ" etc. Over and over you would hear this narrative theme.

But why deny your kids the same experience? Why deny them the same journey? You got to leave "vanity" and find "reality" and now you're stuffing your "vanity" down someone else's throat day after day! Why? It was all about your choice once, now it's all about denying your kids the same choice, the same option to find a path and follow it. Everything in the "pipeline" was designed to carefully, bit by bit, remove any vestige of choice.

Yet they couldn't see it. They were so convinced that they could manufacture some crisis point (carefully built up since they were in diapers) to get the progeny to "choose Christ" which meant "choose Christ and the Church" which meant "submit to the Ministry of the Age" etc etc. The whole thing a big manufactured sham.

And yet they couldn't see it. The whole time they thought they were serving God.

kg, thanks for your voice. It is needed out here.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I know this is going to sound trite, but the problem isn't God or Jesus or the Bible or even "organization." The problem is people. People are all fallen, so any time you get involved with them there are going to be problems. (This includes any time you are involved only with yourself.)

And this includes people in no matter what venue. Just going to the grocery store can be a problem because you have to deal with people.

The trouble with people is that you can't live with them and you can't live without them. That's just the way it is. So the key is to get your relationship with the Main Person (God) in line, and then let him guide you in your interaction with people.

The whole problem with the LR is the defining parameters are all whacked. There is all this angst and worry about LEAVING the LR. ("Oh, horrors!") Of course you are going to have anxiety issues if you worry about things God doesn't worry about. (Strictly speaking, though God has concerns, he doesn't worry about anything.) Let me tell you, God is not much concerned about anyone leaving the LR. Okay? It's a false concern. Leave if you want to, stay if you want to, as God leads. People change churches all the time. It's not a big deal. And, usually parents want their kids to follow in their footsteps. That's normal and human. But there is no moral imperative there. It's your life. Who has the right to tell you where you should attend church? Like I said, it's a whacked LR parameter.

But realize you are never going to find the perfect set of peeps or relationships, spiritual or secular. People are fallen. Trust me, they have the same problem with you.

Pretty good Igzy. The world would be a great place if there weren't people in it.

And we're all just human primates.

Accept it and make the best of it. I find making God my buddy makes it easier ... while making humans buddies makes it harder ... but more interesting ... less boring ... and there's love to be found there ... if you play it right, and are lucky.

So Lord, bless all us human idiots ... we certainly need it. Please don't leave us to our devices.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

"So subjective is my Christ in me..." yes so subjective. And who else would want your subjectivity as their de facto objective reality? No thanks!

Not speaking for kappagamma, but this was her thread, once.

I think this is a valid objection and should be taken on face value. If the Lord's Recovery (LR) teaches that ALL religion is bad, and an ex "Church Kid" realizes that there's nothing in the LR for them, then why not ditch religion altogether?

1. Nobody can prove God exists.
2. Nobody can prove that God raised Jesus from the dead.
3. Nobody can prove that the blood of Jesus does cleanse you from sin.
4. Nobody can prove that there is consciousness after death, which needs forgiveness to avoid suffering, torment etc.

I mean, if the whole thing ends up arguing over declensions and the meaning of the word "nature", then why not just chuck it all? I think that's a pretty good argument.

In my case, I am a Christian because I chose to believe in God (a universe with God somehow seemed 'warmer' than a universe without God [sorry]), and I thought the narrative figure of 'Jesus' still remains the most compelling story of human history. If it wasn't true, I wish it were. So I believe.

It's true that God cannot be proven to exist objectively. He's spirit and invisible, but His qualities can be seen in creation. The LC's however solely rely on subjectivity. This is dangerous in that it allows any feeling, spiritual experience, or epiphany to be defined as being from God as the individual sees fit when in reality that isn't always the case.

God's truth is neither objective nor subjective, it's self-evident and absolute. God is only provable on an individual level but His revelation to us is always the same. Outwardly, you may not have a Saul to Damascus experience but inwardly the same savior and Son is revealed and imprinted on our hearts. The LC's, being cut off from the Lord because of spiritual pride, learned and used mysticism by their own will to pierce the spiritual veil. By this, another Jesus came through; a mysterious, gnostic, and subjective Christ and not the approachable, humble, meek, and lowly Jesus that preached to the poor, fed the hungry, and healed the lepers. If you desire to be a spiritual giant and have a ministry with unique "revelation" that no one else possesses, this is what will come about. You'll be given an exclusive and esoteric Christ, which is no Christ at all.

I remember having a conversation with Evangelical about whether belief alone is enough for an individual's salvation. His argument was that even demons believe in Jesus so it's not enough. The mistake he made, however, was equating the belief of demons that causes fear and trembling to the type of belief that is available to us which is the belief that's an entrusting. This is the type of belief that leads to salvation. Not only do you have to believe that the bible is true you have to trust what is written in it. It's a deep conviction within the heart.

The LC's have cultivated such an atmosphere of mistrust, especially with the current climate that LSM vs GLA creates, it's a miracle that anyone can leave with the ability to trust intact. I believe this is the case for many that have left the LC's and I have no doubt this experience taints and hinders their faith in God. Yet God takes the brunt of our misplaced faith.

There are men and ministries out there that are in right standing with God and can lead you to the Jesus of scripture. I do want to say to kappagamma and those that left the LC, that even if you have totally lost trust in men and ministries altogether you can approach God directly through the mediator himself, Jesus Christ. Don't give up on him!

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

Pretty good Igzy. The world would be a great place if there weren't people in it.

And we're all just human primates.

Well, I never said either things.

The world would not be better without us.

We are not human primates.

We are God's best creation, we bear his image. We are not primates. And the world would have no purpose without us.

Other than that, I agree with you.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

kg, thanks for your voice. It is needed out here.

Hear! Hear! Amen to that!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, I never said either things.

Know you didn't. I did based upon what you said. And I wouldn't know if the world would be a better place if there weren't humans in it. Cuz I wouldn't be here. A lot of the other species would think it better tho.

Originally Posted by Igzy

We are not human primates.

Well okay, 98% human primate. And that last 2% must be God's image in us ... cuz it surely packs a divine like wallop, compared to the Chimps.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Other than that, I agree with you.

Thanks. Not all of us act like animals. And laughter is good medicine.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, I never said either things.

The world would not be better without us.

We are not human primates.

We are God's best creation, we bear his image. We are not primates. And the world would have no purpose without us.

Other than that, I agree with you.

I agree. We aren't animals and it's not based on our DNA. We have a conscience and soul bearing His image.

I think Awareness is just battling Neitzsche and the nihilistic tendencies he picked up from him.

Hang in there Harold

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I agree. We aren't animals and it's not based on our DNA. We have a conscience and soul bearing His image.

I think Awareness is just battling Neitzsche and the nihilistic tendencies he picked up from him.

Hang in there Harold

Thanks Jo S. But I think I answered Igzy.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

If I was an unbeliever reading some of these posts I'd probably say, "I'm so glad I'm not a Christian!" Who wants to end up arguing over textual variants! Not that these posters are, but much of Christian discussion is about fluff. Vague, unprovable concepts, small data sets, ignorance and bias. I can still hear Witness Lee saying, "This means that" and, "This shows us that" and, "We must see that"... Assumption piled onto assumption.

"So subjective is my Christ in me..." yes so subjective. And who else would want your subjectivity as their de facto objective reality? No thanks!

Not speaking for kappagamma, but this was her thread, once.

I think this is a valid objection and should be taken on face value. If the Lord's Recovery (LR) teaches that ALL religion is bad, and an ex "Church Kid" realizes that there's nothing in the LR for them, then why not ditch religion altogether?

1. Nobody can prove God exists.
2. Nobody can prove that God raised Jesus from the dead.
3. Nobody can prove that the blood of Jesus does cleanse you from sin.
4. Nobody can prove that there is consciousness after death, which needs forgiveness to avoid suffering, torment etc.

I mean, if the whole thing ends up arguing over declensions and the meaning of the word "nature", then why not just chuck it all? I think that's a pretty good argument.

In my case, I am a Christian because I chose to believe in God (a universe with God somehow seemed 'warmer' than a universe without God [sorry]), and I thought the narrative figure of 'Jesus' still remains the most compelling story of human history. If it wasn't true, I wish it were. So I believe.

The "church" I am less sanguine about. But Jesus as the route to God seems attractive to me. Sorta like your first teen-age crush - you can't really explain it but it just feels right. But why impose that on others!?! Either they get it or they don't. If they don't get it, let them be at peace! I mean, really! The "gospel" should not be about us imposing our neediness on others. Most of the LR-type "gospel" I see is just that. People "need" recruits because their masters at HQ are thumping the drum - revenues are down, growth is flat - go out there and sell, sell, sell! So they go out and impose themselves on weak-willed souls.

The gospel should be a display of power - the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. It should be so obvious. If there's any curtain-pulling moment where the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz is shown to be just a con man, well so be it (I think of WL's phone call to Sal Benoit - "It's MY business what I do with YOUR money!"). This includes Paul, Jesus, Peter, David, Moses. Everyone is on the dock. If Christianity is a sham, let's have it out on the table.

The gospel should also be a display of peace. Not speeches and rhetoric, but peace. Speech can be used, but speech can never displace peace. The gospel should be about love, patience, kindness etc. You know all the words. Get a Thesaurus. They are all there. Lastly it should be about joy. If I am unhappy because you're not a Christian, what kind of unbalanced, co-dependent 'happiness' am I seeking? Again, the majority of the Christian "gospel" I've been exposed to thus far lies in this vein: If you don't do what I want, then God won't be happy.

Oh, really!?! Get stuffed.

Jesus I'm still interested in. The rest, ...

I love your gospel Aron. I have to share that after the LC I went thru all that you expressed about not wanting to be a Christian ; all the lack of evidence.

At one point, even, I was going around calling God deaf dumb and mute, because I was doing all the talking, while nothing from Him.

But at one point God came to me. Then I realized that it's not up to me. Which is good. Cuz if it depends on me I'm not going to make it.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

I love your gospel Aron. I have to share that after the LC I went thru all that you expressed about not wanting to be a Christian ; all the lack of evidence.

At one point, even, I was going around calling God deaf dumb and mute, because I was doing all the talking, while nothing from Him.

But at one point God came to me. Then I realized that it's not up to me. Which is good. Cuz if it depends on me I'm not going to make it.

I agree. God is, shall we say, a persistent fantasy.

Any system that oppresses people and robs them of their freedom, dignity, and self-worth should be called out. Systems that manipulate weak and emotionally vulnerable children should be called out. Systems that build themselves by denigrating others should be called out.

This post, like an internet forum, doesn't of itself constitute "love" or "peace" or "the gospel" in any meaningful sense. But it can be used to expose manipulative thought-control systems that prey on people and defraud them, and leave them battered and bewildered, not only without identity but so disoriented as to be without means of finding any.

[Weighingin]

Originally Posted by awareness

I love your gospel Aron. I have to share that after the LC I went thru all that you expressed about not wanting to be a Christian ; all the lack of evidence.

At one point, even, I was going around calling God deaf dumb and mute, because I was doing all the talking, while nothing from Him.

But at one point God came to me. Then I realized that it's not up to me. Which is good. Cuz if it depends on me I'm not going to make it.

"God came to me" was encouraging to me. At this time I'm wondering who God is, how does Christ fit in, etc? It is similiar to how I was before I came to the Lc in the earlier 70s. I would think I'm in my mind, I'm not exercising my spirit, I don't pray enough, I didn't have morning watch. But Christ became objective and not real to me much of the time. We only want your Christ, brother.
But now that I realize the LSM is not the unique way to the fullness of God in Christ, I'm not certain what to do except the basic Christian practices and beware of any killing or discouraging teachings.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

"God came to me" was encouraging to me. At this time I'm wondering who God is, how does Christ fit in, etc? It is similiar to how I was before I came to the Lc in the earlier 70s. I would think I'm in my mind, I'm not exercising my spirit, I don't pray enough, I didn't have morning watch. But Christ became objective and not real to me much of the time. We only want your Christ, brother.
But now that I realize the LSM is not the unique way to the fullness of God in Christ, I'm not certain what to do except the basic Christian practices and beware of any killing or discouraging teachings.

Brother Weightingin, I remember it well. I had picked up a book at a local book store : Conversations with God, by Neale Donald Walsch.

I was sitting in the shade under a tree in my front yard in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. It was peaceful. I was only in the first chapter when it happened. I felt that God came to me.

Then, that God was deaf dumb and mute to me vanished. God doesn't speak to us with words, like having a conversation with Him. He speaks to us inwardly. And following that inward leading has led me to all kinds of what you might consider "killing or discouraging teachings."

I'm not sure why, but I've concluded that He wants to pull the rug out from under anything that I have faith in other than Himself.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

It was all about your choice once, now it's all about denying your kids the same choice, the same option to find a path and follow it. Everything in the "pipeline" was designed to carefully, bit by bit, remove any vestige of choice.

Yet they couldn't see it. They were so convinced that they could manufacture some crisis point (carefully built up since they were in diapers) to get the progeny to "choose Christ" which meant "choose Christ and the Church" which meant "submit to the Ministry of the Age" etc etc. The whole thing a big manufactured sham..

I raised some objections about the LC/LR awhile back and a defender of things LSM on this forum replied, "So what? The Baptists also do this". See above, and consider the similarities. I was raised in a Baptist Church and got the fire-and-brimstone pulpit thunder, and was given the "sawdust trail" to walk on, to come forward in a revival meeting and save my soul from eternal perdition. I was, what, 10 years old? Manipulating emotionally open young persons who lack critical faculties? Amen.

But my objection was, and remains, that at its best - its best - the LC/LR is no better than the Baptists. And at its worst it is much worse. No Baptist preacher that I know says that he has the Ministry of the age, that all churches must align under his teachings, some questionable, in an absolute fashion. "If you're not 100% under me get out". All churches must be "absolutely identical" with one another and "not having any individual distinctiveness" (Footnote 1, Revelation 1:20 RecV).

No, the Baptists just give the "low gospel", believe into Jesus and be saved. They don't offer all the "extras", sorry - "High Peaks", that the LC/LR does. I believe that's why so many leave the Christian faith once they leave the LC/LR. Even FTTA graduates, who can't separate God from the LSM. So they toss everything.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I was raised in a Baptist Church and got the fire-and-brimstone pulpit thunder, and was given the "sawdust trail" to walk on, to come forward in a revival meeting and save my soul from eternal perdition. I was, what, 10 years old? Manipulating emotionally open young persons who lack critical faculties? Amen.

No, the Baptists just give the "low gospel", believe into Jesus and be saved. They don't offer all the "extras", sorry - "High Peaks", that the LC/LR does. I believe that's why so many leave the Christian faith once they leave the LC/LR. Even FTTA graduates, who can't separate God from the LSM. So they toss everything.

This poses for me a troubling theological question about a person's salvation. I have met a few folks who claimed to be genuinely born again as a youngster, believing in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Then, decades later, they espouse no faith whatsoever. As an adult they reject the whole existence of God.

Evangelicals believe that once born again, one can never be snatched from His hand. Yet we are saved by faith. As Abraham was reckoned righteous by his faith in God. Without faith in the Savior's death, how can our debt for sin be paid?

How many others, like aron, were "manipulated" as youngsters to "come forward" and confess their sins and confess His name? Then which is it? Are we saved by faith, or by being born again? In a normal world, both exist together, but these are not normal times. Thoughts?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

I raised some objections about the LC/LR awhile back and a defender of things LSM on this forum replied, "So what? The Baptists also do this". See above, and consider the similarities. I was raised in a Baptist Church and got the fire-and-brimstone pulpit thunder, and was given the "sawdust trail" to walk on, to come forward in a revival meeting and save my soul from eternal perdition. I was, what, 10 years old? Manipulating emotionally open young persons who lack critical faculties? Amen.

But my objection was, and remains, that at its best - its best - the LC/LR is no better than the Baptists. And at its worst it is much worse. No Baptist preacher that I know says that he has the Ministry of the age, that all churches must align under his teachings, some questionable, in an absolute fashion. "If you're not 100% under me get out". All churches must be "absolutely identical" with one another and "not having any individual distinctiveness" (Footnote 1, Revelation 1:20 RecV).

No, the Baptists just give the "low gospel", believe into Jesus and be saved. They don't offer all the "extras", sorry - "High Peaks", that the LC/LR does. I believe that's why so many leave the Christian faith once they leave the LC/LR. Even FTTA graduates, who can't separate God from the LSM. So they toss everything.

Maybe after the LC everything needs to be tossed for awhile.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How many others, like aron, were "manipulated" as youngsters to "come forward" and confess their sins and confess His name?

Me, at 8 yrs old, in a Southern Baptist.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then which is it? Are we saved by faith, or by being born again? In a normal world, both exist together, but these are not normal times. Thoughts?

Isn't faith a product of grace?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I have a lot of trouble with some of the accusations made against the LC - either because they are before my time or presented too vaguely to carry the necessary weight to resonate with me... or they don't match the sentiment that I have from being raised in this environment as opposed to those who chose it for themselves in adulthood. Being raised this way is very different and the beliefs instilled from youth are ingrained into who we are - it's not as easy as just leaving a movement. You literally are removing threads from the fabric of your identity. I am not sure, for that reason, that this forum is particularly the right place for me or not but it's better than nothing.

I wanted to bring this part of the opening post forward because I think it really encapsulates what kappagamma was really wanting to get through to. us forum regulars. Of course she can correct me if I'm wrong

When our new friend says "I have a lot of trouble with some of the accusations made against the LC" I think we should take this very seriously. Nobody...repeat...absolutely nobody, has a monopoly on the truth. I think most of us would agree that the only person who has a monopoly on the truth is the the one and only true God-Man, the One who proclaimed that He was "the way, the truth and the life. Remember the words of the Lord Jesus when praying to the Father - "Your Word is Truth". And who was sent by the Father and brought us to the ultimate truth? Why that would be "The Spirit of Truth".

And yes kappagamma, you are quite correct is saying

Originally Posted by kappagamma

Being raised this way is very different and the beliefs instilled from youth are ingrained into who we are - it's not as easy as just leaving a movement. You literally are removing threads from the fabric of your identity. I am not sure, for that reason, that this forum is particularly the right place for me or not but it's better than nothing.

This forum is composed of quite an expansive cross section of people who have widely differing experiences and views about the Local Church of Witness Lee. One part of this cross section is sorely missing on this forum is people like you. So stick around and maybe make your mark around here.
-

[Weighingin]

I've seen since the 1970s, a substantial number of "church kids" not stay around once they could leave as adults. Now this is seen with the ones who matured in the 1990s and 2000s leaving. Some of the reasons, like this one regarding the MOTA belief, are common to many of us. But I believe it helps all to see how ones raised in the recovery without any choice of their own decide to leave.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I will say though that jumping into this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking that I have not had in many, many years. I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

I’m glad you are healing from LC violation. While I wasn’t raised in LC (I was entrapped at age 17), one of the reasons I left was I wanted no part of forcing LC religion on young people or entrapping others, as it violates principles of the gospel being offered freely and not forcing a response.

I’m also glad this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking. Jesus really is amazing, and worthy of all praise, honor, and blessing.

These days purchasing a paper Bible is not necessarily needed as free on-line Bibles can be used with computer, tablet, and smart phone with internet connection or download. I use Bible Hub, Bible Gateway, and Blue Letter Bibles for different purposes. Just put each name into a search engine and viola, pick each one and try them out).... all major and many minor translations are there, individually or side by side in parallel mode). I like the literal translations like Berean’s and Young’s as well as Strong’s NASB in Bible Hub. Lot’s of tools including Greek and Hebrew text and commentaries are included. Bible Gateway has audio mode for some versions, which I like for quick reading.

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

These days purchasing a paper Bible is not necessarily needed as free on-line Bibles can be used with computer, tablet, and smart phone with internet connection or download. I use Bible Hub, Bible Gateway, and Blue Letter Bibles for different purposes. Just put each name into a search engine and viola, pick each one and try them out).... all major and many minor translations are there, individually or side by side in parallel mode). I like the literal translations like Berean’s and Young’s as well as Strong’s NASB in Bible Hub. Lot’s of tools including Greek and Hebrew text and commentaries are included. Bible Gateway has audio mode for some versions, which I like for quick reading.

I'll see you and I'll raise you one. Not only is the Bible freely available in various forms but the surrounding literature as well. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls open up a window to the messianic expectations of a separatist sect called the Essenes. When John the Baptist came out of the desert preaching repentance, he greeted the religious ones coming from Jerusalem with epithets. Clearly there's a back story here.

Witness Lee famously told us that he hadn't learned anything from anyone for 45 years. For those coming out of the LC/LR, there's some catching up to do!

Of course there are a lot of flakes out there, a lot of proverbial chaff. But with the internet one can sort through things fairly quickly. We have resources available that were undreamed of 30 years ago.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

I'll see you and I'll raise you one. Not only is the Bible freely available in various forms but the surrounding literature as well. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls open up a window to the messianic expectations of a separatist sect called the Essenes. When John the Baptist came out of the desert preaching repentance, he greeted the religious ones coming from Jerusalem with epithets. Clearly there's a back story here.

Witness Lee famously told us that he hadn't learned anything from anyone for 45 years. For those coming out of the LC/LR, there's some catching up to do!

Of course there are a lot of flakes out there, a lot of proverbial chaff. But with the internet one can sort through things fairly quickly. We have resources available that were undreamed of 30 years ago.

Anyway, those growing up in the LC have a ton of catching up to do. They followed only one voice, Lee's. That leaves 'em incredibly short on christian matters.

Google and Wikipedia are just starting off points. And so is the opening up of their minds. After growing up with closed minds, that ain't easy.

May the Lord of all knowledge be with them. And thanks to Him for the abundance of the internet. We wouldn't be here without it.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I grew up in what I believed at the time to be a fairly strict LC household but as I've come to hear of other experiences it was not as strict as I once thought. I was required to attend every Sunday, as well summer school of truths, conferences, and even semi-annuals when I was older. I lived in a sisters house a few years in college and attended FTT-Anaheim for two years. I would say that I was marginally in the CL until the FTT. It was there that most of the issues that I had came to the forefront and I, from that point, couldn't ignore it anymore and made my eventual (but quiet) exit. To me it was just another religion and, having been taught my whole life religion was bad... well, there you have it. Really intrigued to know if there are others here who have been through the FTT and found it to remove a veil rather than adding one?

Thanks kappagamma. I'm also intrigued about what those "church kids" have experienced growing up in the Local Church. I think there a many others out there just like you - those who have been taught that religion (even the Christian religion) is supposedly the greatest of all evils. Yet the local churches under Witness Lee/Living Stream Ministry have become one of the most religious and dogmatic organizations one could imagine

I also wanted to bring this very enlightening list the kappagamma posted in the OP.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

That being said I am very happy to have left this movement, even at some personal cost, and have some basic reasons:

1) Witness Lee died a long time ago. We were fed the line "standing on shoulders" year after year after year and I am highly skeptical that circa 1997 the "high peak" was reached and there is no growth/revelation left to attain. It has been 22 years. The world has changed, technology has changed, but God hasn't? I don't think so.

2) Women's roles in LC (and beyond). I'm sorry, I don't buy it. I am not a second class citizen. The suppression of women is not my thing and I'm not going to be complacent about it. I can't belong to an organization that silences and suppresses and demeans half (or more) of it's population.

3) Performance. I've known - and been myself- one who knew what to say and how to say it and when to say it in meetings of the LC and felt nothing on the inside. No thanks. I don't want to belong to an organization that says they are outside of religion and culture but very clearly has one all of its own. We all know it does. We all know what we are supposed to do and say or not do and not say. Fake. I don't like acting and didn't want to do it anymore.

4) Suppression of identity. This ties to #3 some but I would say that I feel like a shell of the person I'm supposed to be because individuality was so suppressed. Is this sentiment shared by anyone else? I feel so damaged being raised in this environment.

5) Purity culture. Unhealthy level of separation between male/female. I'm not saying that a church has should embrace immorality but there are healthy ways to teach interaction between the sexes and unhealthy ones. LC doesn't do it right and the impact it has had within the LC and other evangelical groups is real and documented. Really good books out there to read on this subject. (emphasis added)

Each one of these points have been discussed to one degree or another here on the forum, but I have never scene such a succinct and clear list of what many Local Churchers, especially young people, experience in the LC movement.
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

3) Performance. I've known - and been myself- one who knew what to say and how to say it and when to say it in meetings of the LC and felt nothing on the inside. No thanks. I don't want to belong to an organization that says they are outside of religion and culture but very clearly has one all of its own. We all know it does. We all know what we are supposed to do and say or not do and not say. Fake. I don't like acting and didn't want to do it anymore.

The more we read testimonies of LC "church kids," the more we read this repeated theme -- knew what to say and how to say it and when to say it in meetings. How sad! The LC has really become performance driven religion. Are not the young people's gatherings in some places little more than "acting schools." Yet when they graduate from these "acting schools" they are empty, out of gas. Not my words, but theirs.

[kappagamma]

Originally Posted by awareness

Anyway, those growing up in the LC have a ton of catching up to do. They followed only one voice, Lee's. That leaves 'em incredibly short on christian matters.
Google and Wikipedia are just starting off points. And so is the opening up of their minds. After growing up with closed minds, that ain't easy.
May the Lord of all knowledge be with them. And thanks to Him for the abundance of the internet. We wouldn't be here without it.

This is quite arrogant, yes? I would argue that - yes, while there is quite a bit of Lee in our upbringing you are talking about a lifetime of Bible reading, verse memorization, etc. The RV wasn't out our whole lives...we've read other Bibles, too... and further... those of us who have made the choice to leave no doubt have spent countless hours comparing translations and what is offered by other denominations etc to see what else is out there. We just aren't puffed up about it (only some offense intended). Also LOL at growing up with closed minds. Have you actually observed the cross-section of "Church Kids" out there? How "open" is any hard-core religious fanatics mind? And how "closed" is someone who has chosen a different path? Have you seen how many posts on this forum get stormed by certain individuals with certain viewpoints? That's a heck of a lot more closed-minded than most of the "Church Kids" I know... but what would I know... I only am...er....was one

[MarsVolta]

This faking of personality is what made me so great at customer service and management later in life. I can fake whatever I need to. It was easier to fake that your personality, then go through hours of re-programming and mental/physical abuse for not faking it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by kappagamma

This is quite arrogant, yes? I would argue that - yes, while there is quite a bit of Lee in our upbringing you are talking about a lifetime of Bible reading, verse memorization, etc. The RV wasn't out our whole lives...we've read other Bibles, too... and further... those of us who have made the choice to leave no doubt have spent countless hours comparing translations and what is offered by other denominations etc to see what else is out there. We just aren't puffed up about it (only some offense intended). Also LOL at growing up with closed minds. Have you actually observed the cross-section of "Church Kids" out there? How "open" is any hard-core religious fanatics mind? And how "closed" is someone who has chosen a different path? Have you seen how many posts on this forum get stormed by certain individuals with certain viewpoints? That's a heck of a lot more closed-minded than most of the "Church Kids" I know... but what would I know... I only am...er....was one

Kudos to you kappagamma, for not having a closed mind.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by MarsVolta

This faking of personality is what made me so great at customer service and management later in life. I can fake whatever I need to. It was easier to fake that your personality, then go through hours of re-programming and mental/physical abuse for not faking it.

Wow! Thanks MarsVolta, that was honest and true. From a naturalistic viewpoint the reasons we humans have done so well is that we have perfected deception, faking our emotions, and manipulation. The upside of that is that some have become equally good at detecting deception, fakery, and being manipulated. There is a fascinating book called the Peace Child where a tribe's highest honor went to those who could best deceive their enemies. God dropped a missionary into that culture who struggled to communicate the gospel because they exhalted Judas for being able to deceive and have Jesus killed. But, he found out about and used their culture's peace child.

One of my charismatic friends has the gift of prophecy, he doesn't know this but I have the gift of discernment that allows me to detect when a prophet is full of bull dukey!

Our Lord complemented a man for having no guile, and urged us to be wise as serpents but harmless as doves. We are urged to speak the truth in love. Even though we are deceptive by nature may we learn to be little Christ's in our interaction with religeous Pharisees and self-acknowleged sinners.