Outer Darkness?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Could there be a situation like that were a brother made a correlation? Sure. Is it a practice? Nah.

In my experience I would say it is way more than a correlation but maybe not quite as far as a practice.....but it gets close.

I can second (or fourth?) this by adding that I grew up hearing these kinds of things many times also:

"So and so left the church and now they have a child born with disabilities."

"So and so left and their plane crashed and they died."

"So and so left/was negative and they now have throat cancer."

Those are all statements I have heard in the LC said about real people. Note that these are not statements expressing that the person left and their life went downhill because of something they themselves did. The negative outcome is always something outside of any human's control indicating that it was God's punishment.

This is a very real atmosphere of fear cultivated in the church. Even when I was younger and knew I wasn't on the best of terms with the Lord, most times when I would drive home from saints' houses I would essentially expect for a car to t-bone me as I drove through an intersection because that is what God does if you are not 100% for Him or the church....."waiting for the other shoe to drop on backslidden ones" as it were. Those kind of thoughts and fears (that still pervade my mind today) are only created through repetition and reinforcement.

I can surmise that some localities exist where these kind of things were not said, which explains Drake's experience, but I not only heard these statements within a locality, I also heard them in the live trainings spoken by the co-workers. I know some people can hear things spoken and disregard them as "bones not for consumption", and I wish I was that way, but some people, like me, have a more sensitive trusting disposition and grow up taking things to heart because we weren't raised to discern and question, just to accept and trust blindly. Then when we get to a point where we realize we can discern, we have decades of misrepresentations about God to surgically extract from our very cells!

[awareness]

There you go again Trapped, dropping another great post. What will we ever do with you?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

There you go again Trapped, dropping another great post. What will we ever do with you?

Thanks awareness, I actually really needed those positive words today. I appreciate it. You gave me a good laugh too.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This is a very real atmosphere of fear cultivated in the church. Even when I was younger and knew I wasn't on the best of terms with the Lord, most times when I would drive home from saints' houses I would essentially expect for a car to t-bone me as I drove through an intersection because that is what God does if you are not 100% for Him or the church...

One thing you said at one point that I think is valuable is this: it was often strongly implied, that these things were so. But it might not get printed in HWMR, so as to keep the air of propriety (read: orthodoxy).

I grew up in an abusive home, and my family behaved differently when "company" came. Once the strangers left, then we got the "real family life." LC is like this in some ways that things are continually suggested as being so, without being able to confront them, because, "Where did we say anything like that" is the response.

It's extremely effective mind control because it's continual and repetitious, yet one can't confront it openly.

The other thing about Trapped's testimony is to imagine what it's like to grow up at 8 years old, 10 years old, and hear this stuff all the time. What kind of effect it has on one's ability to think. How many of them who leave the LC leave the faith! They just can't imagine God being any different from what they were brought up on.

Originally Posted by Trapped

If you have any more to say about this topic I am all ears. I have a hard time forgiving people, or if I manage to, it is hard for it to last or be "ongoing forgiveness". I know, "Christ is our forgiveness" but some of us have a harder time of it than others. Any more experience or advice would be much appreciated.
Unforgiveness truly is torture for the unforgiving!

I learned two things from the Master (aka Jesus the Lord, Rabbi Yeshua, the Teacher of Righteousness &c):
1. The gap between me and the most pathetic reprobate probably isn’t as great as the gap between me and the Most High God - my showing mercy to sinners on my path is an opportunity for God to show mercy to me.
2. As I do unto others God will do to me. If I forgive, I will be forgiven (Matt 6:12); if I don’t forgive, I won’t be forgiven (Matt 6:15).
Pretty simple stuff, really.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by aron

The other thing about Trapped's testimony is to imagine what it's like to grow up at 8 years old, 10 years old, and hear this stuff all the time. What kind of effect it has on one's ability to think. How many of them who leave the LC leave the faith! They just can't imagine God being any different from what they were brought up on.

Not only are you a young child carrying around that burden, but once you grow up some and realize that you were cheated out of knowing the real person and heart of God, you are then left to wrestle with the questions of "Where was God in all this? Why would He let me go on for so long under such a heavy burden without stepping in to clear it up? If He really wants a relationship with me, where was He to correct the misrepresentation and show Himself to me? Does He really love me or just love seeing me hurt?"

It really does a number on you.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I can surmise that some localities exist where these kind of things were not said, which explains Drake's experience, but I not only heard these statements within a locality, I also heard them in the live trainings spoken by the co-workers...Then when we get to a point where we realize we can discern, we have decades of misrepresentations about God to surgically extract from our very cells!

Great post Trapped! Of course all current Local Church members are going to deny that such a cultish atmosphere exists within the movement. Denials of such teachings/practices are to be expected from such cultic/aberrational groups like the Local Church of Witness Lee. According to my observation, these kind fear mongering tactics are less prevalent in the movement these days, but as you noted, they are deeply ingrained in the hearts and minds of the faithful older ones - the very ones who have the most influence. I distinctly recall some of my concerned family members asking me if such rumors were perpetrated, and I distinctly recall denying any such rumors or stories were circulated among the members. (insert Pinocchio's growing nose emoticon here) Hey, if Witness Lee could deny that he was to be considered an apostle, I could certainly get away with such a little harmless white lie...am I rrriiigggghhhttt?

This whole matter of "Outer Darkness" as taught in the Local Church is an extreme and tortured interpretation of a purgatory-like Millennial kingdom punishment used by quite a number of false teachers and apostle wannabes over the centuries. Witness Lee wasn't the first one to teach this, and he won't be the last I'm sure.
-

[Evangelical]

It is human psychology to recall bad events or teachings and forget the good...particularly if they are 30 years ago. Whenever I hear about outer darkness it is often tempered with the truth about eternal security and its purpose to correct and reform not destroy. Anyway..a believer should fear displeasing the Lord rather than fear punishment. A doctrine without outer darkness could be considered 'sparing the rod'.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It is human psychology to recall bad events or teachings and forget the good...particularly if they are 30 years ago. Whenever I hear about outer darkness it is often tempered with the truth about eternal security and its purpose to correct and reform not destroy. Anyway..a believer should fear displeasing the Lord rather than fear punishment. A doctrine without outer darkness could be considered 'sparing the rod'.

How would someone be corrected and reformed in darkness? Wouldn't he or she need God's light?

[UntoHim]

Good point A little brother!

Of course this is just another indication of the serious problems with Witness Lee's make-it-up-as-you-go-along, wacky "theology". Undoubtedly, he got some of the basics of this "Outer Darkness" stuff from the Brethren, and maybe a few others, but as Lee was apt to do, he took a questionable doctrine/teaching and blasted it to all new heights of absurdity and foolishness. And then, before you know it, you have a bunch of young and gullible people thinking that if they leave some tiny, insignificant sect they are going to get cancer, or get into a horrible car accident, or a grand piano is going to fall on their head.

As has been noted, thankfully this madness is much less of an issue in the movement in recent times. But we can be sure that this kind of mentality is still alive and well within the ranks of the Official Leaders - The Blended Brothers, and probably also with the great majority of elders in the various Local Churches. May God have mercy.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

How would someone be corrected and reformed in darkness? Wouldn't he or she need God's light?

Your question is equivalent to asking "how would gold be refined through fire, wouldn't it need light?". Obviously for the purification to take place, the impurities need to be burned away.

Salvation is justification, sanctification, and glorification. Outer darkness is for sanctification, and therefore for salvation. Evangelicals/Protestants err by thinking that sanctification and glorification is not part of salvation. That's why they cannot explain the verses about gold refined by fire. They think that believers in whatever carnal condition and any state receive full rewards in heaven without consequence. When this is in direct contradiction to the scriptures about "sparing the rod".

An example of this misunderstanding is when OBW wrote in this thread:

"And it might be about something other than salvation, but rather related to sanctification. "

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Not only are you a young child carrying around that burden, but once you grow up some and realize that you were cheated out of knowing the real person and heart of God, you are then left to wrestle with the questions of "Where was God in all this? Why would He let me go on for so long under such a heavy burden without stepping in to clear it up? If He really wants a relationship with me, where was He to correct the misrepresentation and show Himself to me? Does He really love me or just love seeing me hurt?"

It really does a number on you.

You are right.

Nearly all of us have our complaints about our own personal upbringing. I had mine. It was these almost cries for justice and answers that led me to the Savior, after stumbling into many shameful and painful pits. Since then life has not been a bed of roses without its discouragements. It was these events which force us to take serious assessment of our short time on earth. Do we zoom in on what we find missing and objectionable, or do we "treasure hunt" to find some heavenly gems in our own dumpster of life.

Fortunately, I've done both. I say fortunately because what if I had never sought the Answer, and then found Him? Of course, most of us would like to believe that "if God was good," we should never have had the difficulties we did in the first place. Why was I created the way I was? Why was I in this family? Why was everyone picking on me? Questions like this tormented me at one time. Over time I came to learn the secret of ascension. Actually I did this many times over the years, since I was first saved, before I even realized what I had done.

Briefly, I somehow rise above the situation and look down with a new point of view. I see suffering as short-lived and temporary. Instead of seeing my own health issues, I see those born blind, those hit by tragedy, those far worse off than me. Instead of comparing downward from some perceived ideal, I compare upward. All my complaints then seem tiny from above. Things take on new perspective. Eternity comes into view. The blessings of my Father can also be seen. The little annoyances almost disappear. The needs of others can be seen. The important things come into focus.

Trapped, hope this helps somehow.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You are right.

Nearly all of us have our complaints about our own personal upbringing. I had mine. It was these almost cries for justice and answers that led me to the Savior, after stumbling into many shameful and painful pits. Since then life has not been a bed of roses without its discouragements. It was these events which force us to take serious assessment of our short time on earth. Do we zoom in on what we find missing and objectionable, or do we "treasure hunt" to find some heavenly gems in our own dumpster of life.

Fortunately, I've done both. I say fortunately because what if I had never sought the Answer, and then found Him? Of course, most of us would like to believe that "if God was good," we should never have had the difficulties we did in the first place. Why was I created the way I was? Why was I in this family? Why was everyone picking on me? Questions like this tormented me at one time. Over time I came to learn the secret of ascension. Actually I did this many times over the years, since I was first saved, before I even realized what I had done.

Briefly, I somehow rise above the situation and look down with a new point of view. I see suffering as short-lived and temporary. Instead of seeing my own health issues, I see those born blind, those hit by tragedy, those far worse off than me. Instead of comparing downward from some perceived ideal, I compare upward. All my complaints then seem tiny from above. Things take on new perspective. Eternity comes into view. The blessings of my Father can also be seen. The little annoyances almost disappear. The needs of others can be seen. The important things come into focus.

Trapped, hope this helps somehow.

I am reminded of John 10:10... the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy..but Jesus came that we would have life and have it more abundantly.. even overflowing..

So many people have been deceived by going to 'church'. I know many here have returned to 'church' and are happy and content. Good for you so this may not pertain to you.

That said, many people have given their lives and energy to 'the church' rather than to Jesus forgetting that we need our lamps to be filled daily with His Spirit. If He leads us to do good works so be it. Good works follows our Faith in HIM.

They eventually get burned out or deceived that 'the church' is more important than anything else. Loyalty is to the 'pastor' more than the congregation from my observation and even less to Jesus.

I have been reading testimonies of people leaving the 'church of Christ'...so many people are TRAPPED by religion. We forget GOD is not a religious Deity. We can't please HIM in our natural man! But as we have communion with HIM He directs our path.

Btw.. at my bible study last night, we had a guest who used to go to the church our hosts attend. Since we are reading Joshua, he brought a Shofar, a long ram's horn and blew it beautifully. He stopped attending the church he was raised in about 5-6 yrs ago.

What a SURPRISE he converted to JUDAISM! Big time, unwavering Jew!! I realized he never experienced the Holy Spirit and God's Word inside him..thus he was never born again... after attending Christian 'church' all his life. Anyway..

I am grateful for the scriptures:
Jesus began a good work in me.. in fact a MOST EXCELLENT work in me and not only me but to His followers..to His brethren, to the born again saints washed and cleansed in the Precious Blood of the Lamb and He is going to finish it. (Phillipians 1:6)

I am grateful He will never leave me (or us) and never, ever forsake us.

I am grateful for the Holy Spirit revealing 1 Corinthians 10:13 back in 1975

There is no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: yet God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation (trial) also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Bottom line.. Satan, that old serpent does not want us to have a relationship, communion, Faith in Christ Jesus our Savior. He thrusts us into situations that cause us to doubt God is for us. To distrust believers, our fellow brethren.

Imagine what all those poor Catholic children endured during the 40s, 50's and 60s from the pedophile 'priests' in the RCC in Philadelphia!! May GOD truly have mercy on them and heal them and reveal HIMSELF to those people who were violated as children.

If there are any scriptures I hold on to, it is the ones I just mentioned:

Philippians 1:6
Hebrews 13:5
and 1 Corinthians 10:13

Blessings and healing from God to all.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

So many people have been deceived by going to 'church'. I know many here have returned to 'church' and are happy and content. Good for you so this may not pertain to you.

That said, many people have given their lives and energy to 'the church' rather than to Jesus forgetting that we need our lamps to be filled daily with His Spirit. If He leads us to do good works so be it. Good works follows our Faith in HIM.

They eventually get burned out or deceived that 'the church' is more important than anything else. Loyalty is to the 'pastor' more than the congregation from my observation and even less to Jesus.

Yes. Oh the system of things we humans find ourselves in! My my.

The devil basically doesn't care what system of things someone gives themselves to - sports, fashion, TV & movies, career, politics, partying, crime . . . but also good religion (e.g., Christianity) or (dare I say it!?) even family. Some systems may be more quickly destructive to a person, but in the end, if he can us into the dirt without us experiencing the living Christ, he's been successful!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

One thing you said at one point that I think is valuable is this: it was often strongly implied, that these things were so. But it might not get printed in HWMR, so as to keep the air of propriety (read: orthodoxy).

Reminds me of an Islamic practice. Muslims are permitted to deceive the "infidels" if their cause is being furthered. It's called "al-Taqiyya" meaning deception; the islamic word for concealing or disguising one’s beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies.

How else does one explain Drake's non-stop declarations, that after 40+ years in the LC's, he has never witnessed anything we discuss on this forum.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

In my experience I would say it is way more than a correlation but maybe not quite as far as a practice.....but it gets close.

I can second (or fourth?) this by adding that I grew up hearing these kinds of things many times also:

"So and so left the church and now they have a child born with disabilities."

"So and so left and their plane crashed and they died."

"So and so left/was negative and they now have throat cancer."

Those are all statements I have heard in the LC said about real people. Note that these are not statements expressing that the person left and their life went downhill because of something they themselves did. The negative outcome is always something outside of any human's control indicating that it was God's punishment.

This is a very real atmosphere of fear cultivated in the church. Even when I was younger and knew I wasn't on the best of terms with the Lord, most times when I would drive home from saints' houses I would essentially expect for a car to t-bone me as I drove through an intersection because that is what God does if you are not 100% for Him or the church....."waiting for the other shoe to drop on backslidden ones" as it were. Those kind of thoughts and fears (that still pervade my mind today) are only created through repetition and reinforcement.

I can surmise that some localities exist where these kind of things were not said, which explains Drake's experience, but I not only heard these statements within a locality, I also heard them in the live trainings spoken by the co-workers. I know some people can hear things spoken and disregard them as "bones not for consumption", and I wish I was that way, but some people, like me, have a more sensitive trusting disposition and grow up taking things to heart because we weren't raised to discern and question, just to accept and trust blindly. Then when we get to a point where we realize we can discern, we have decades of misrepresentations about God to surgically extract from our very cells!

Trapped,

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

Perhaps in seeking an explanation for tragic events one gravitates towards those that include purpose because the purely random or incidental seems otherwise senseless. I don’t know, but maybe we as humans want assurance that a similar random event of fate won’t also befall us so a reason or a cause is needed. The scripture that comes to mind is the man blind from his birth.. the people thought that maybe he or his parents sinned... but the Lord said it was so the works of God might be manifest.

My point is this, the Lord may act severely toward those who oppose His interests as with Pharoah, Herod, and yet sometimes He chastises His own harshly, or as StG prefers, firmly. Those that died in the wilderness probably consider it a 10 on the harsh scale. Moses was excluded from entering the good land after all that transpired because of one incident.... where he misrepresented God before the people. However, I do not believe that God is walking around with a stick to whack us.... rather, He wants us to enter the kingdom richly and has made all provision for us to do so. Yet, servants then are cast into outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. That is a future matter, yet in this life God sends rain to the just and the unjust. I believe your testimony and the affect it had on you..... but it is not a teaching in the genre of warnings as is the teaching on outer darkness which is a warning for that future judgement day. Your experience, and that of others like it seems to issue primarily from the category of the man who was blind from birth. God may intervene as He pleases and we have to allow for that... but it is not a teaching used to subjugate and control the members of His Body. His ruling us is primarily by feeding us.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Drake,
Once again your post is a dodge of biblical proportions. It is becoming increasingly clear that either you don't have much first hand knowledge and experience of the same Local Church we are speaking of, or you have been walking around in a coma for 40 years. Of course there are other alternatives, but I would not like to think that a Christian brother would resort to that kind of deception on a public forum. (and I think you're quite right, by the way, about God will judge us for what we write on this forum)

Originally Posted by Drake

However, I do not believe that God is walking around with a stick to whack us...

Good point. So why did Witness Lee and many of his hand-picked elders/ministry leaders feel it so necessary to create such an atmosphere of abject fear of a man and the religion he invented? I mean, I never heard of someone fearing a dreadful death or accident if they spoke against Chuck Smith or left Calvary Chapel for another church. When's the last time you heard a member of Saddleback church say they had a fear of getting cancer if they didn't buy copious copies of A Purpose Driven Life, or spoke even the slightest criticism of Rick Warren...or God help them if they stopped attending Saddleback.

Perhaps in seeking an explanation for tragic events one gravitates towards those that include purpose because the purely random or incidental seems otherwise senseless.

If I didn't know you I would think this is one of the coldest and heartless things ever written on our little forum. For the time being, I'll just take into consideration that my first paragraph here is accurate. No Drake, we didn't have to seek for any explanations...the explanations were given in not-so-veiled insinuations and hardly subtle references to what would befall a Local Churcher who strayed from "The Lord's Recovery." This kind of cultic atmosphere was not uncommon or limited to those of us in Orange County near the headquarters on Ball Road. It was movement-wide because Witness Lee's influence was obviously movement-wide.

This matter of "Outer Darkness" is not a simple teaching or "doctrine" in the Local Church of Witness Lee. It is part and parcel of a larger system of error. It is impossible to take this teaching and discuss it apart from the entire gambit of the teachings, practices and history. I know that current LC members find it convenient to attempt to steer the discussion in a direction which diverts attention away from the realities that were, and now are, faced by followers of Witness Lee. So, steer away fellows...but don't expect to have much success around here.
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This matter of "Outer Darkness" is not a simple teaching or "doctrine" in the Local Church of Witness Lee. It is part and parcel of a larger system of error. It is impossible to take this teaching and discuss it apart from the entire gambit of the teachings, practices and history. I know that current LC members find it convenient to attempt to steer the discussion in a direction which diverts attention away from the realities that were, and now are, faced by followers of Witness Lee. So, steer away fellows...but don't expect to have much success around here.
-

As I said before, at a recent family reunion the matter of outer darkness "summer school" was casually mentioned in front of others, believers or not, LC or not, which definitely indicates that this is just part of their daily fellowship. Nobody tried to "steer the conversation" away from the topic of "I'm not ready, I need more time, otherwise I'll be going to summer school for a long time." Yet, sitting there lounging on the deck with an assortment of friends and family, there was no sense of urgency whatsoever.

And these lovely saints are not from the Midwest. They fully supported the quarantine of TC.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This matter of "Outer Darkness" is not a simple teaching or "doctrine" in the Local Church of Witness Lee. It is part and parcel of a larger system of error. It is impossible to take this teaching and discuss it apart from the entire gambit of the teachings, practices and history. I know that current LC members find it convenient to attempt to steer the discussion in a direction which diverts attention away from the realities that were, and now are, faced by followers of Witness Lee. So, steer away fellows...but don't expect to have much success around here.
-

No need to steer anything.... just offer an alternative explanation for the outer darkness. Aron, can’t.

Somebody step up.

Maybe some think it doesn’t apply to believers and that it is a picture of hell... or maybe some believe it’s just a story and we shouldn’t make too much of it, maybe some are convinced that when the believer stands before the Lord He will judge them but then intervene and rescue them because of His shed blood and grace. Maybe some just mentally clip that part out of their Bible. I really don’t know how members in this forum interpret this scripture,, except StG and his three excellent points, Evangelical by his detailed explanations, and perhaps Trapped who seems to accept the outer darkness teaching but disagrees with how it was applied.

Other than that what we have so far is just nay saying... no alternatives. I’m ready to discuss an alternative explanation. Let’s hear it.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

I’m ready to discuss an alternative explanation. Let’s hear it.

Drake

Outer darkness is undeniably unattractive to any and all human life, or otherwise. It sounds bad but not as bad as hell.

However, I doubt loyalty to Lee's movement is the standard by which it's determined who goes there.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Outer darkness is undeniably unattractive to any and all human life, or otherwise. It sounds bad but not as bad as hell.

However, I doubt loyalty to Lee's movement is the standard by which it's determined who goes there.

True, its prudent to want to avoid it. ....and the standard is found in the sum of the parables, epistles, the book of Revelation, and the entirety of the Word of God.

Though not scripture, I believe StG's three point declaration is worthy of affirmation.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

I’m ready to discuss an alternative explanation. Let’s hear it.

I've repeatedly given you Hebrews 3 and 1 Cor 15 referencing the Exodus, and written to Christian believers. Why no response? I thought you were ready to discuss? Neither infers a thousand-year torment.

Moses fell in the wilderness, due to disobedience. Is he going to be in torment for 1,000 years after the rapture? If so, why was he seen with Jesus Christ on the mountain of transfiguration, in the gospels.

Perhaps Lee covered this all in detail; if so, please bring it up and let's see it. And while you're at it, let's consider why going beyond scripture is profitable for the believers' walk. I must have missed that in our discussion thus far.

For example, if 2,000,000 Israelites crossed the Red Sea but only two of them (Caleb and Joshua) made it across the Jordan River, does that mean that only 1 Christian in every million "makes it" into the kingdom reward? The other 999,999 get a thousand years of anguish? Or is that reading too much into the text; you know, going beyond what's actually been written?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

I've repeatedly given you Hebrews 3 and 1 Cor 15 referencing the Exodus, and written to Christian believers. Why no response? I thought you were ready to discuss? Neither infers a thousand-year torment.

Right... Hebrews says that they did not enter into His "rest" and I Cor 15 says they served as examples for us being strewn along in the wilderness.

So, please tell us your version of what entering into His rest mean? And then what does not entering into His rest mean?

"Stark and sober" indeed.... so we should dive into it.

thanks
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Right... Hebrews says that they did not enter into His "rest" and I Cor 15 says they served as examples for us being strewn along in the wilderness.

So, please tell us your version of what entering into His rest mean? And then what does not entering into His rest mean?

"Stark and sober" indeed.... so we should dive into it.

thanks
Drake

I don't know - Moses? Please, go ahead. We are waiting. I am, anyway.

My version is this: God loves us, so much that He sent His Son. We might believe into him, Jesus the Messiah, and have eternal life.

Now, how come Moses didn't enter into the rest, but is with Christ on the Mountain? Should I ignore this in my theology-building? You seem to want to. Why - because your teacher did?

There's a danger in gross oversimplification, and LSM is Exhibit A. You want me to be Exhibit B? Okay, how about "Love God and love your neighbour"?

You want responsibility, and consequence? How about, "What you do to others will be done to you"? That's not good enough for you? Why not?

Why follow someone who goes beyond what is written? How does this "closely follow the apostles teaching"? How come Witness Lee got to tease 'truths' out of thin air while the rest were told, "Don't have an opinion"?

It's clear in the NT, both in gospel and epistle, that there's consequence for disobedience. Nobody here on this forum has suggested otherwise.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

No need to steer anything.... just offer an alternative explanation for the outer darkness. Aron, can’t.

Well as far as I know aron hasn't claimed to be the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth. Nor does he have a bunch of groupies running around calling him "The Acting God" or "The One Minister with the One Ministry for The Age". And I don't believe he has started his own religion in which his followers must follow his person and work to a T or be sentenced to 1,000 years of weeping and gnashing of teeth in Outer Darkness (my, my, how ever are they going to catch up reading that huge backlog of Life Studies, Lee Outlines and HWMRs in total darkness?)

So in the meantime I imagine aron might do what most considerate, reasonable Christians do when it comes to researching and learning about the proper understandings and interpretations of such deep theological matters - he will turn to the plethora of educated and learned men that the Lord has provided to the Body of Christ for the proper interpretations. They may vary in their interpretations, but most will be backing them up with knowledge of different types and applications of theology, with knowledge of the original languages, and the historical understandings and interpretations of other biblical scholars throughout the ages. What he won't be doing is turning to the uneducated guesses and willy-nilly, make-it-up-as-he-went-along "theology" of Witness Lee.

So if aron feels like it, or wants to take the time, maybe he or someone else here will indulge your challenge. Of course it won't matter in the end. You don't care what anyone has to say about anything unless their first name is Watchman or Witness. Taking the time to give you the orthodox teachings regarding anything is an exercise in futility. You have a one track train, and it only makes one stop - Lee Central Station.
-

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

maybe he or someone else here will indulge your challenge.
-

I challenge brother Drake to present his take on outer darkness. If he has already, may he please repeat it.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So in the meantime I imagine aron might do what most considerate, reasonable Christians do when it comes to researching and learning about the proper understandings and interpretations of such deep theological matters - he will turn to the plethora of educated and learned men that the Lord has provided to the Body of Christ for the proper interpretations. They may vary in their interpretations, but most will be backing them up with knowledge of different types and applications of theology, with knowledge of the original languages, and the historical understandings and interpretations of other biblical scholars throughout the ages. What he won't be doing is turning to the uneducated guesses and willy-nilly, make-it-up-as-he-went-along "theology" of Witness Lee. -

That is terrific!

Aron, this is great. Now you can demonstrate once and for all, just how that "uneducated" China-man stacks up against "educated and learned men". Can't wait to see the knowledge of different types and applications of theology, original languages, and historical understandings and interpretations throughout the ages. All good stuff.

So, I'm here, pen in hand and brand spankin new spiral notebook. You won't mind if I ask questions and raise points of clarification? ok, good.. didn't think a reasonable and considerate christian such as yourself would mind.

So, exactly what did those scholars throughout the ages say about the outer darkness?

The podium is yours.

Thanks much,
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

So, exactly what did those scholars throughout the ages say about the outer darkness?

The podium is yours.

Interesting how suddenly you don't want to discuss Lee's theology.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Trapped,

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

Perhaps in seeking an explanation for tragic events one gravitates towards those that include purpose because the purely random or incidental seems otherwise senseless. I don’t know, but maybe we as humans want assurance that a similar random event of fate won’t also befall us so a reason or a cause is needed. The scripture that comes to mind is the man blind from his birth.. the people thought that maybe he or his parents sinned... but the Lord said it was so the works of God might be manifest.

My point is this, the Lord may act severely toward those who oppose His interests as with Pharoah, Herod, and yet sometimes He chastises His own harshly, or as StG prefers, firmly. Those that died in the wilderness probably consider it a 10 on the harsh scale. Moses was excluded from entering the good land after all that transpired because of one incident.... where he misrepresented God before the people. However, I do not believe that God is walking around with a stick to whack us.... rather, He wants us to enter the kingdom richly and has made all provision for us to do so. Yet, servants then are cast into outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. That is a future matter, yet in this life God sends rain to the just and the unjust. I believe your testimony and the affect it had on you..... but it is not a teaching in the genre of warnings as is the teaching on outer darkness which is a warning for that future judgement day. Your experience, and that of others like it seems to issue primarily from the category of the man who was blind from birth. God may intervene as He pleases and we have to allow for that... but it is not a teaching used to subjugate and control the members of His Body. His ruling us is primarily by feeding us.

Drake

Drake,

Thanks for your response.

The first thing to note is that, for my part, my post was really intended to exist within the confines of the fear-based "don't leave the LC or else" side topic that popped up, rather than within the larger topic of Outer Darkness in this thread. So your note that "it is not a teaching in the genre of warnings as is the teaching on outer darkness which is a warning for that future judgement day" is true, and I never meant to represent it as such. My bad if it came across that way.

As a fellow human I certainly understand your point about wanting assurance that the fate that befalls someone else won't also befall us. I do this myself constantly when I hear the news....if someone gets murdered, I comfort myself with the fact that it was done on the street at 2am, which is somewhere I will never be. If someone dies in a house fire, I reassure myself that that won't happen to me because they didn't have a fire extinguisher and I do, etc, etc. I assume many people do this, possibly often without thinking, as a coping mechanism to get through each day when there are so many terrible things going on around us. That's fine, but most of us are also not on the podium representing themselves as God's speaking on this earth and the only ones who have the high truths. When ones in that position ascribe to God's punishment events in people's lives that have nothing to do with God's punishment, an unhealthy and warped view of God and what He wants will inevitably result.

I'm struggling a little with the connection you made with your comment about a man being blind from his birth so that the works of God may be made manifest. To me that describes suffering that befalls a human, explicitly stated not as the consequence of an act of sin, that the Lord uses to glorify Himself, with the result (at least in John 9:1-12 that you alluded to) being positive for that person in their human life and a glory to God. On the other hand, the situations I mentioned were passed off as suffering/death as a direct consequence of an act of "sin" (leaving the LC) that was represented as the Lord's punishment upon that person. These are two very different things, but I may be missing something you intended to convey.

God's teaching is not used to control and subjugate members of the Body, as you said. Agreed! But the teaching of men within the LC was. And it was very effective and very damaging.

Trapped

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'm struggling a little with the connection you made with your comment about a man being blind from his birth so that the works of God may be made manifest. To me that describes suffering that befalls a human, explicitly stated not as the consequence of an act of sin, that the Lord uses to glorify Himself, with the result (at least in John 9:1-12 that you alluded to) being positive for that person in their human life and a glory to God. On the other hand, the situations I mentioned were passed off as suffering/death as a direct consequence of an act of "sin" (leaving the LC) that was represented as the Lord's punishment upon that person. These are two very different things, but I may be missing something you intended to convey

I’ll clarify Trapped..... Concerning the man blind from birth and the brother who leaves the Lord’s Recovery and meets with some tragedy ..... my view was that as the man was not born blind because of sin, in like manner the brothers death was not a result of the sin of leaving the Lord’s Recovery... because I don’t believe it is a sin to leave the Lord’s Recovery and I never heard anyone teach it that way either.

Of course you rightly point out that the condition of the man born blind was to glorify God .. i was not trying to convey anything on that aspect regarding the tragedy that befalls a brother.

Drake