The LCS Factor

[Hope]

Dear Forum,

For some reason, my home computer has been shut out of the forum. Several days ago I prepared the following. Just as I was preparing to post it, I lost the link to the forum and it has not come back. Thus I am taking a few minutes at work to post this.

Quotes from Matt’s Posts,

Let's be clear. It was Hope that started this line of reasoning at the beginning of the thread if you want to be factual about the introduction of influences from the dark side. He said, "remember there is an enemy". You didn't object to that.

He did this to deflect attention from some aspects of individual responsibility for sin. I started pushing on this fact by drawing out the issue of idolatry. Idolatry is a sin. It is a deed that each one of us can commit and must take responsibility for it when we do. If we take care of our sin, then God will protect us from the Enemy.

That's fine with me and I will defend my position rigorously on this issue. I'll also challenge the likes of SC and Hope when the defense that is attempted is subpar.


Matt,

May I assume your reference to me as “the likes of” is linked to your thought that my motive for mentioning the enemy, (Satan, the Devil with his evil forces) was an attempt to deflect some aspects of individual responsibility for sin?
We all will appear at the judgment seat of Christ and will be required to take personal responsibility for how we walked. At that time, all our motives will be exposed. Many times we do not know what our motives are. In my original post which may have been the Genesis for all the back and forth, I thought my motive was based on a desire to help the people who have been so hurt, both children and parents. Blaming a brother or sister who did not agree with an edict from Anaheim etc, destroyed many a conscience. They were brought into a "it is your fault" mind set and many times their walk with the Lord was destroyed. I have learned to seek to protect believers, in, out or never heard of the lc, from excessive blaming introspection. That was what I thought was my motive. Maybe I have displayed tendencies to avoid personal responsibilities on the two forums and when we have talked. No good if I have.

Idolatry was not only among the Israelites but also among all the nations around them. We all must be on guard against idols. A little side bar, at one time in the recent 10 years I was a frequent speaker guest at another assembly. A brother from that place heard some messages on idols given here in NC. I was invited to give a week-end conference there on the matter of idols. Wow, did that ever change my popularity!! Yes, there is an enemy. He uses idolatry to attack our individual Christian life, our Corporate Testimony and our families.

Idolatry is linked to greed because the idol promises to satisfy the greed’s desire whatever that is. Men do not worship idols for nothing. There is a promise of getting the things one lusts for. If we do not put our greed on the cross, we are a sitting duck for the enemy to seduce us through idolatry. The idol’s worship and service will require us to sacrifice something and almost always it is our family and for believers it will include the Lord’s children. This is true whether the person is a Christian or in or not in a local church. Consider how many dear believers in the local churches were sacrificed in order to prove the loyalty of different ones. I was amazed as greedy, ambitious members denounced godly saints as a means to advance in the LCS. Why could they turn on John Ingalls, John So, Bill Mallon and others? Because they had been seduced to believe their greed, ambition for position could be fulfilled by sacrifices, the killing of the Lord’s servants and prophets. See 2 Kings 9:7, 'And you shall strike the house of Ahab your master, that I may avenge the blood of My servants the prophets , and the blood of all the servants of the LORD, at the hand of Jezebel. NASB

May I call for another deep breath and a step back? Matt, does have a vital point about idols. But I also think we all need a little more care lest we slay some of the genuine servants of the Lord. Consider the zeal but also care of Jehu, the destroyer of the House of Ahab and the priests of Baal. 2 Kings 10:23, "Search and see that there may be here with you none of the servants of the LORD, but only the worshipers of Baal." NASB

Again, if I have taken a position of avoiding personal responsibility please let me know. I would prefer to walk in the light.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Thankful Jane]

I believe we should pay close attention to the idea of the mystery of iniquity that Paul spoke about and to its development over time. From our vantage point centuries later we have the possibility of understanding something about this by looking at church history, including our own experience. I believe that the picture we see in the woman, Mystery Babylon the Great, is a picture of God's people caught in a system of idolatry.

As believers, we need to see this, not for the purpose of standing and pronouncing condemnations against a group of Christians or for slaying others with this truth, but for light on our own hearts because "coming out of her" is a heart matter. It is about personal obedience and absolute submission to Christ only. It is about each person learning to cling to Jesus only and each one following Him, not denying His name and keeping His pure word. It is so we can serve Him only and not serve other gods, so we can eat the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth and not the leavened bread of malice and wickedness. It is about being a participant in the new covenant where God Himself is writing His laws on each of our hearts and minds.

The following is taken from a commentary by Barnes on verse 2Th 2:7. I don’t believe anyone can argue successfully that the mystery of iniquity was not clearly at work among us in the Local Churches. Of course, it is at work in other places, but we need to look at where we were and learn:

For the mystery of iniquity - On the meaning of the word mystery ... It means properly what is hidden or concealed; not necessarily that which is unintelligible. The “mystery of iniquity” seems here to refer to some hidden or concealed depravity - some form of sin which was working secretly and silently, and which had not yet developed itself. Any secret sources of iniquity in the church - anything that tended to corrupt its doctrines, and to destroy the simplicity of the faith of the gospel, would correspond with the meaning of the word. Doddridge correctly supposes that this may refer to the pride and ambition of some ministers, the factious temper of some Christians, the imposing’ of unauthorized severities, the worship of angels, etc.

Doth already work - There are elements of these corruptions already existing in the church. Dr. Newton maintains that the foundations of popery were laid in the apostle’s days, and that the superstructure was raised by degrees; and this is entirely in accordance with the statements of the apostle Paul. In his own time, he says, there were things which, if not restrained, would expand and ripen into that apostasy. He has not told as particularly to what he refers, but there are several intimations in his writings, as well as in other parts of the New Testament, that even in the apostolic age there existed the elements of those corruptions which were afterward developed and imbodied in the papacy. Even then, says Dr. Newton, “idolatry was stealing into the church 1Co_10:14, and a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels.” (Col_2:18; see, however, my note on that passage.) “There existed strife and divisions 1Co_3:3, an adulterating and handling the word of God deceitfully 2Co_2:17; 2Co_4:2, a gain of godliness, teaching of things for filthy lucre’s sake 1Ti_6:5; Tit_1:11, a vain observation of festivals Gal_4:10, a vain distinction of meats 1Co_8:8, a neglecting of the body Col_2:23, traditions, and commandments, and doctrines of men Col_2:8, Col_2:22; compare 3Jo_1:9, “Diotrephes, who loveth to have the pre-eminence.” These things constituted the elements of the corruptions which were afterward developed in the papacy, and which are imbodied in that system. An eye that could see all, would even then have perceived that if there were no restraint, these incipient corruptions would grow up into that system, and would be expanded into all the corruptions and arrogant claims which have ever characterized it; compare 1Jo_4:3.

Thankful Jane

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Hope

May I call for another deep breath and a step back? Matt, does have a vital point about idols.

Hope, Don Rutledge

Hope (and others),

Well said. I personally took a deep breath over the weekend! But, I don't think many think I have!!!

During my deep breath I thought about a few things. Many current and ex-LCer's don't have any real level of conception of the role of 'idols' in our modern context and especially when it relates to the christian setting.

I believe you have more education on this topic from the OT. I have studied it for a while. Why don't you and I toss it back and forth for a little bit. I think there is a lot we can put on the table for consideration. As I mentioned in my last post, let's let others be the judge. They can decide for themselves.

Whether people realize it or not, I'm not here to beat anyone up. I just believe that we have to really think about this in light of God's perspective which He establishes quite clearly in the Word of God even if it causes some reactions. We can work through the reactions too. Reactions to the content are welcome in my mind.

When I referenced "the likes of", it was two-fold:
1. I was reacting to the idea that there were exceptions in the LC and that your locality was one of them. Yes, I am saying reacting. Some of the reaction was fair and some of it was unfair on my part. Sorry.

2. I was also referring the idea that each thing that we hold on to from the LC must be closely inspected. I did not express this when I said, "the likes of", but it was part of my thought as I wrote. For example, how about "deputy authority" versus "spiritual authority". I've heard you talk about DEPUTY AUTHORITY being very bad, but it is built on top of Nee's conceptions of SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY. What of "spiritual authority" are we holding onto? I'm not trying to go on a tangent. That is another thread.

But, each one of these conceptions of God and conceptions of how the church is supposed to operate that is not fully under the Lord can become a source and root cause of idolatry. Now, this kind of idolatry gets more subjective. I've been working on the more objective idolatry for the most part. Conceptions of God become idol based upon how we relate to it in our hearts. The idol is not the thing in itself, but how we relate to it.

What I did not use to understand, but makes sense to me now is that idolatry is about wrong relationship. We talk about the need for right relationship with God which is good. God asks us to be in right relationship to Him and our 'neighbors'. When we get into improper relationship to Him and our neighbors because we want (lesser form of greed) something that God hasn't given us then we start getting out of sorts with the Lord.

When we move into the heart level area of idolatry, it almost impossible to separate out the Baal worshippers from the servants of God, because it is a heart level issue. It's very difficult to judge. So, I'm guilty as charged of painting with a broad brush. I'm trying to bring into focus that the way the Lord sees idolatry and has shown by many examples is that it is extremely pervasive throughout all of Israel. I think this is still the case with the idea in mind that we are all Israelites as Paul says, but not according to fleshly birth.

As for the more objective aspects of idolatry it is a little easier to look at them. That's most of what I've been doing. I've been pressing on the more objective aspects of idolatry in the LC that we can see with our eyes. Yes, there are still some challenges in proving it out the satisfaction of others and there is a lot of resistance to the idea of even exploring it.

Part of the problem at this stage (on this thread) is that there are a number of people who don't even want to talk about it, even if we separate out the Baal worshippers from the servants of God.

I have a real hard time being willing to accept an unwillingness to address such an important subject. The most recent appeal is that we should stop talking about this because we want this forum to be more palatable to current LCer's. Are there any proposals for where we should discuss it if we want to preserve this forum?

Matt

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Matt

Part of the problem at this stage (on this thread) is that there are a number of people who don't even want to talk about it, even if we separate out the Baal worshippers from the servants of God.

Matt,

The only person who really didn't want to talk about it was SC. I didn't hear anyone else say they don't want to talk about.

(Actually, if we could "talk" about it we would probably understand each other better. In this format it's often very hard to make ourselves understood even when we feel we've expressed ourselves well. Honestly, I often think we express ourselves better when we keep our posts short. Remember the great advice the father gave his son when reviewing his essays in A River Runs Through It? "Very good. Now make it half as long.")

Let me say that I do not think that it is unlikely that idolatry exists in the LC, nor do I think the word "idolatry" is inappropriate, nor do I think the subject is unworthy of discussion. I'm not opposed to Matt's burden.

I've just been throwing out some ideas from my perspective, mainly because when I hear the talk about idolatry it seems to me like a blunt instrument going "thud, thud, thud," and I respond more to dagger-like intellectual arguments. Perhaps I'm too "sophisticated." As Nigel Tomes made clear, not everyone responds to the truth delivered in the same way.

By all means carry on, Matt. I might learn something.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

We have the term "teen idol" in our culture. Does this term = a physical stature of the star is made out of bronze and put in a temple and people bring sacrifices and bow down to it? Not likely. It means that teenagers are crazed about the star and follow them and what they wear and how they act and what they say, etc. And the studios and record companies feed this frenzy with savvy marketing. In such a fashion Lee is an idol to some in the LCS and the LSM marketing machine feeds it with their endless stream of adulation.

"Personality cult" is another term used in our society. If a disc jockey is said to have a cult following does that mean he is asking his audience to move to Guyana and kill themselves? Not likely. It means he has a group of people who excessively cling to every word that proceeds out of his mouth and in turn yap about him and his show to anyone who will listen.

Idol and cult are not shock words. They are words commonly used in our society everyday and when properly applied aptly describe the Lee/LCS situation.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The only person who really didn't want to talk about it was SC. I didn't hear anyone else say they don't want to talk about.

Igzy,

That, my friend, is a fabrication. I've not only talked about it but I have continued to talk about it.

What's up with you, Igzy? You seem to want to pick a fight.


SC

[Cal]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Igzy,

That, my friend, is a fabrication. I've not only talked about it but I have continued to talk about it.

What's up with you, Igzy? You seem to want to pick a fight.

SC

SC,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. The only person I've ever tried to pick a fight with was Steward, who had it coming.

I said that based upon the fact that you are very opposed to implications of idolatry and then you said (I thought) you were through talking about the subject. I took that to mean you didn't want to talk about it. I hadn't noticed your participation since then.

Sorry if I misread you.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I said that based upon the fact that you are very opposed to implications of idolatry and then you said (I thought) you were through talking about the subject. I took that to mean you didn't want to talk about it. I hadn't noticed your participation since then.

Sorry if I misread you.

Igzy,

No prob. I guess I did say I was done talking about it. Anyway, I have no problem at all with the discussion.


SC

[SpeakersCorner]

Matt,

One of my main objections to your “idol talk” was the black-and-white aspect to it. You said that every single saint was tainted by idolatry. Your logic was that just being in that environment was all it took.

Well, what about Thyatira? Here’s a church that was steeped in idolatry and other evil practices yet the Lord says, “Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets.”

Where in your assessment of the LC are “the rest of you” in the LC system?

I have other objections to your condemnation, but this one certainly deserves a response.


SC

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

I have other objections to your condemnation, but this one certainly deserves a response.

SC

The very fact that you take what I am saying as "condemnation" is part of the problem here. I am not condemning you. Your trying to 'paint' me into something I am not doing. I will admit to 'judging' (attempting to rightly assess deeds based on God's Word and what I know), but not unto personal condemnation. Also it is important to note that my judgment is on words and deeds, not intent.

I've been party to some bad things in my life. I don't condemn myself, because God doesn't condemn me. I repent when God shines the light in my heart and helps me to see the error of my deeds.

Why was it acceptable for Lee to point at RCC and say idols, idols, idols and it is not acceptable for me to point at the LC and say idols, idols, idols? (This is mostly rhetorical)

We will all be judged. All God's ways are judgment. He rightly divides between that which is holy and that which is profane. When it comes to us, those who believe in Jesus Christ we will be counted righteous in that day and granted mercy, but we will be judged.

Judgment unto condemnation is quite another thing. I am not doing this. I am judging, but not with condemnation in my heart. God is a consuming fire. He will burn up the wood, hay and stubble. A long time ago, I gave him permission to burn whatever he needed to burn in me. He still working on it because I am a pretty stubborn, hard-hearted, stiff-necked, strong-minded little fellow who needs a lot of heat and pressure to get some things through to my little pea-brain.

Let me be very honest, I believe that the fact that you take it this way (as me condemning you) is due to the very fact that you hold something precious about the LC. I'm not telling you that you are wrong to hold something precious about the LC. I am acknowledging the fact that you are doing so.

What is it that you hold precious? I'm not poking fun at you or trying to give you a hard time. As honestly as you can say it, what do you hold precious about the LC? (This too can be treated as rhetorical)

We've seen so much wood, hay and stubble from the LC that it is hard for me to understand why it is still held in such high regard? When I seen this kind of discussion run it's course before, I can remember hearing that it is the "good" things of the LC (aka don't throw the baby out with the bathwater) that some are trying to hold onto.

On your part, I've seen the repeated denial of the "proof" presented about Lee an the LC. You repeatedly say, there is no evidence. I would strongly recommend that you take some time to read Morris Fred's paper on the LC written in the late 60's/early 70's. You will see the patterns of the BB in Lee while he was in Taiwan. You'll see the utterly shocking fact that Lee was staying in close contact with his top lieutenants in Taiwan while he was here in the US (1960-1966) to reestablish his preeimence over the Taiwanese LC by the 70's. This is the very time that Lee was "under the blessing of the Lord and somewhat repentant" based on what I have heard from the likes of Bill Mallon.

This is why I am painting with black-and-white even though I know there are many shades of gray. We are hiding things in the gray that need the light of God shining on them. Again, I know I cannot shine the light. It's not my job. It is my job to point at the deeds and make some attempt to connect the dots to the Word of God. If the light shines in then praise God. If I'm wrong, then okay. Only I will suffer loss in this case.

I posit that some of the gray is where the idols lie. I think the easiest way to see this is to look at what it takes to hold on to only Christ. In your mind, what does it take to hold on to only Christ? Once you establish that, then you can look and see what else you are holding that goes beyond that. This is the kind analysis that will surface the idols. When you hold up the "gray" things against the Word of God the light begins to shine in and some portions of the "gray" thing turns black and other portions turn white. With God, there are no shades of "gray". The shades of "gray" are a thing of man.

I'm not pointing my finger at you specifically. Don't get offended with me. I'm not condeming you. In my heart, I don't judge you nearly as much as it may appear to you in these posts.

In recently addressing Balaam, we see an actual prophet of God who only spoke what God told him to speak but he did it for profit and personal gain. Is it not entirely possible that Lee was just like this? The fact that he had such high knowledge of the Word of God does not rule out the fact that he may well have been doing it for very wrong and selfish reasons (personal and family wealth). See 1 Peter 2 it's talking about christians (at least in part, see v20) and it shows that some can be overcome after they have come to know the Lord.

Matt

[SpeakersCorner]

Matt,

For starters, I am not the least offended with you and don't think you're pointing a finger at me in particular. I understand your view, I think, quite well.

I will gladly answer your questions here but only after you clearly answer mine. Where are "the rest of you" in your assessment of this matter of idolatry? It seems you took a single word of my post -- condemnation -- and used it to sidestep the central issue.

As for that point, I agree you aren't condemning me, but you are condemning the local churches for having idolatry. That's why I chose the word.

But before you tackle that, answer my question about the "rest of you."


SC

[Matt Anderson]

SC,

I think I did answer in my second post. Ask again if you don't think I did.

If I am condemning anything then it is idolatry. Are we not all to condemn sin even in our own lives in agreement with God?

What I am saying is that there is idolatry in the LC and not just here a little and there a little. It's pervasive and part of the very underpinnings of the entire system of the LC.

Matt

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Matt,

Well, what about Thyatira? Here’s a church that was steeped in idolatry and other evil practices yet the Lord says, “Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets.”

Where in your assessment of the LC are “the rest of you” in the LC system?

SC

What about Thyatira? Each church has differing conditions and differing judgments.

So, the question is which one is more applicable to the LC? Thyatira or Pergamos? Or is it one of the others?

It's not a relevant challenge to what is being said if you aren't going to lay claim to one of them being the actual condition of the LC. Do you think the LC was Thyatira? If so, why?

If you are speaking in the hypothetical and saying that it is possible to have a church condition that doesn't apply to everyone in the church and which God does not hold all responsible, then sure I agree with this. It appears that this is not the case in Pergamos.

So, which shoe best fits for the LC? It's quite possible for there to be multiple shoes that fit to some degree, but what's the best fit?

Matt

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Matt

What about Thyatira? Each church has differing conditions and differing judgments.

So, the question is which one is more applicable to the LC? Thyatira or Pergamos? Or is it one of the others?

It's not a relevant challenge to what is being said if you aren't going to lay claim to one of them being the actual condition of the LC. Do you think the LC was Thyatira? If so, why?

If you are speaking in the hypothetical and saying that it is possible to have a church condition that doesn't apply to everyone in the church and which God does not hold all responsible, then sure I agree with this. It appears that this is not the case in Pergamos.

So, which shoe best fits for the LC? It's quite possible for there to be multiple shoes that fit to some degree, but what's the best fit?

Matt

Matt,

My last post must have been at the same time as yours. So you have now answered my question.

My point concerning Thyatira is that within an idol-worshipping church there are some who do not qualify. (I don't interpret the LC as Thyatira; I agree with Nee on Thyatira being the Roman church.) I can't recall your original wording, but I do know you said virtually everyone in the LC was guilty of idolatry. Right?

As for Pergamos not having any exceptions, I disagree. "You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality." You "have people there" indicates clearly it was not a monolithic situation.

What say you?


SC

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Matt,

My last post must have been at the same time as yours. So you have now answered my question.

My point concerning Thyatira is that within an idol-worshipping church there are some who do not qualify. (I don't interpret the LC as Thyatira; I agree with Nee on Thyatira being the Roman church.) I can't recall your original wording, but I do know you said virtually everyone in the LC was guilty of idolatry. Right?

As for Pergamos not having any exceptions, I disagree. "You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality." You "have people there" indicates clearly it was not a monolithic situation.

What say you?

SC

It's impossible to have 100% of people in any group 'lording it over' others. So, you need some subjects to be subjected to those who will act as 'lord'.

Balak = one who lays waste/destroyer
Balaam = devourer
Nicolaitan = to conquer the people

doctrines of Balaam in the hands of Balak + doctrines of Nicolaitans = Bad combination for which we see much evidence in the LC.

It is important to note that the responsibility in Pergamos appears to point to everyone. God tells them all to repent. Not just some. Those who acted as 'lord' and those who were willing to submit to this improper authority and receive the food sacrificed to these idols. It was to their destruction that they partook.

Think HWMR. It is the "processed" spiritual food handed out as a replacement to the Word of God which is the manna that God intended for us.

Matt

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Matt

It's impossible to have 100% of people in any group 'lording it over' others. So, you need some subjects to be subjected to those who will act as 'lord'.

The responsibility appears to point to everyone. Those who acted as 'lord' and those who were willing to submit to this improper authority and receive the food sacrificed to these idols. (Think HWMR. It is the "processed" spiritual food handed out as a replacement to the Word of God which is the manna that God intended for us).

Matt

Matt,

I'm not sure what you're saying here. It sounds like you're saying if you read things like HWMR, you're guilty of idolatry. I'm not buying that one bit.

I have read many Catholic works (well, some) and received some real benefit. Most everyone I know has read and even quote St. Francis of Assisi's prayer: "Lord, give me the strength to change what I can, give me the strength to resist what I cannot change and give me the wisdom to understand the difference between the two." Good stuff, right? Well, this is the same guy who, "claimed to have had a mystical experience in the Church of San Damiano just outside of Assisi, in which the Icon of Christ Crucified came alive and said to him three times, "Francis, Francis, go and repair My house which, as you can see, is falling into ruins"." [Wikipedia]

Does that make all of us who have read and even appreciated him idolators?


SC

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Matt,

I'm not sure what you're saying here. It sounds like you're saying if you read things like HWMR, you're guilty of idolatry. I'm not buying that one bit.

SC

SC,

We all know that HWMR is not optional in an LSM driven LC. It is the very source used for each Lord's table meetings. The last meeting I went to was just like this. Everyone had their HWMR's out and shared primarily from it. Many people didn't even have a Bible with them.

I'm not talking about individual free-will reading of christian materials. I'm talking about systematically replacing God's Word with something like HWMR and providing it as the primary source of spiritual nourishment even at the Lord's table.

One more elemental point: Think about how hard it has been for the Midwest to set some distance between itself and the LSM. It's been atrociously difficult and the "destroyer" has worked hard to keep the Midwest under the "lordship" of the "lord" which controls the LSM/LC. The Midwest didn't quietly leave. It's been a huge fight. Why? What's all the fuss? Those who "lord" it over others don't like to give up control. This is object evidence of the deeds of the Nicolaitans. Furthermore, there is objective evidence of the doctrine of the Nicolaitans being fully brought to bear. Spiritual Authority which is the root of Deputy Authority laid the groundwork for Lee to establish "lordship" over many people, but people had to commit themselves to it. There are examples of those who left early on. They saw what was wrong. T.A. Sparks spoke clearly in the form of admonition and warning about the coming "lordship" in 1957.

Matt

P.S. If you want to be strict in your interpretation of the OT based on what Paul says in 1 Cor 10 and follow through on that (which I think Lee did at one point) then you could say that God wants you to eat the heavenly manna He provides as the only source of spiritual nourishment. Currently, I'm not going that far. From God's point of view, I'd say it like this. Isn't God's Word good enough for you? Why do you want other meat?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

...My point concerning Thyatira is that within an idol-worshipping church there are some who do not qualify. ... I can't recall your original wording, but I do know you said virtually everyone in the LC was guilty of idolatry. Right? SC

I'm just going to jump in here and make an observation about the "some who do not qualify." Those in the LC who do not qualify, or, those who do not "worship the idol", do not remain. Or, should I say, cannot remain. How can anyone remain in the LC without worshipping the idol? Is that possible?

Nell

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Matt

What I did not use to understand, but makes sense to me now is that idolatry is about wrong relationship. We talk about the need for right relationship with God which is good. God asks us to be in right relationship to Him and our 'neighbors'. When we get into improper relationship to Him and our neighbors because we want (lesser form of greed) something that God hasn't given us then we start getting out of sorts with the Lord.

Concerning right relationship with God, commandment #1 says "I am the Lord your God .... you shall have no other Gods before Me." This is the antithesis of idolatry. This commandment is addressed to the individuals who collectively made up the children of Israel. The ten commandments (the old covenant) looked out for the highest good of each person, addressing matters important to each one and to their relationships with God and one another. The commandments were to be obeyed by individual people. Each person was accountable for their sins and all the various offerings were set up for individuals who sinned. I think there is only one mention of some kind of offering for the whole congregation but that was only for when every person in the whole congregation had sinned.

Matt once told me that he learned studying Western Civilization history that the Hebrew people were responsible for the introduction of the thought that the individual was valuable and of prime importance to God. They were also credited with the idea of personal responsibility. These were unheard of thoughts before the ten commandments were given. The Hebrew thought actually elevated the worth of man. Because God had such intimate concern for each individual, man saw himself in a new light. (Matt, maybe you could quote some of this you read me before.) Furthermore, the Hebrew God set His people free from bondage. He would not have His people in servitude to other nations and other gods. He brought them out of Egypt, from a house of bondage and gave them a moral will with a law that allowed them to choose to obey it and He promised to reward them accordingly. It was important to Him that they be free to serve Him. (Let my people go that they may serve me.) The value of the individual was at the center of God's view of His people.

As believers each of us are called to be in a new covenant relationship with God which is a very personal and intimate. We are each called to freedom and charged to remain in freedom so we can serve him without fear.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.

The new covenant is between God and every person who believes the gospel. For us to think of the Body of Christ as some kind of entity that can exist apart from individual people in direct, unhindered relationship with God is simply wrong. The Body of Christ is made up of individuals who have been set free from bondage and have freely chosen to be in relationship with God. Because of this they can be in godly relationships with one another.

For a Christian to submit to any kind of control that competes with Jesus being his/her one Lord and Master is the same as entering into bondage and servitude to other gods. Each person in the body of Christ is called to stand in the liberty they have been given in Christ. (Jerusalem which is above is free and is the mother of us all.)

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters [i.e., not a collective reference but a reference to individuals], saith the Lord Almighty.

The Christian walk is not about Jesus and me alone on an island somewhere (though it could be if that is what he wanted), but it is about Jesus being first as my Lord and Master, with no intermediary in between me and Him. The real experience of the body of Christ is dependent upon you and me each knowing Jesus as the one Lord and master of our individual lives.

This is the battle point for the devil. He hates this. We can play church all day long and talk body life talk until the cows come home, and the devil will just smile. We can try and produce some kind of collective unity by men exercising hierarchical authority, and the devil will smile even more. What wipes the smile off of his face is each individual finding and experiencing their own new covenant relationship with Jesus.

Can Texas culture with rugged individualists be given credit for making strong individual believers? (If it could, then the believers in Texas in the mid 60s would not have snapped their heels and started saluting Lee and becoming his lieutenants.) Only Jesus can make us each stand up strong in Him. He is in the business of doing just that. That is how he builds His church. Just read Eph. 4: " ... for the perfecting of the saints" [individuals]. The job of the gifted ones is to perfect each individual saint's walk with Christ; it is not to directly produce a collective building. It is not to act in the place of God and rule over God's people claiming to represent God to them.

Why does God hate idolatry (serving other gods)? Because it hinders individual people from being in right relationship with Him. It introduces another master and damages our individual walks with Christ. We cannot serve two masters. If we are serving another god, we are not serving Him.

Thankful Jane

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm just going to jump in here and make an observation about the "some who do not qualify." Those in the LC who do not qualify, or, those who do not "worship the idol", do not remain. Or, should I say, cannot remain. How can anyone remain in the LC without worshipping the idol? Is that possible?

Nell

Yes, absolutely. There are many dear saints in the Local Churches (splinter groups) and the Living Stream Church who do not bow their knee to idols. Many of them don't have a clue that there is even such a thing as idolatry in the LSM Church. We cannot paint them all with a broad brush.

Can we draw a line in the sand and say that all who refuses to cross it are guilty of idolatry? In the Old Testament, yes. That’s the easy way. But not in the New. Such behavior does not reflect the heart of the true Shepherd.

It's easy to do a study of idolatry in the Bible and blast everyone with it. It's not easy to shepherd the Lord's sheep.

Roger

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Roger

Yes, absolutely. There are many dear saints in the Local Churches (splinter groups) and the Living Stream Church who do not bow their knee to idols. Many of them don't have a clue that there is even such a thing as idolatry in the LSM Church.

Roger

Ignorance alone does not exclude someone from idolatry.

What makes you think that there are many who do not bow their knee to idols? One of the reasons I ask this is because the OT shows us that there were only 7000 individuals who did not bow their knee to Baal in the Northern Kingdom at the time of Elijah. This was a very small number of the total residents in the Northern Kingdom. (Note: there are other reasons too).

Idolatry is not about completely abandoning God. It's about who you rely on. Do you really think there are many in the LC who are relying totally on God or have they been led astray to relying on the "Minister of the Age" and their membership in the "Recovery". In some cases, they are stuck their out of fear, but it is fear that they are leaving the "highest thing of God". We know that God is working all over the place and that this fear is not real. We know that the Lord is worthy and able to take care of each one of us, no matter what group we meet with, but many in the LC believe that they must remain anchored to the LC group for their protection. This is another implicit evidence of the presence of idolatry. I believe many are relying on the wrong thing and this has drawn them into a wrong relationship with God. They are required to revere Lee too highly for the sake of the ministry (aka Recovery) and this is idolatry.

This issue of reliance applies to me too, but not in a religious context. I don't exclude myself. I'm not better. I'm subject to the same issues and I have stumbled at times. Even when I do it ignorantly it does not provide an exclusion for me. A lot of Levitical law was setup to make provision for sins done in ignorance. God didn't make exclusions for sins done in ignorance. He made provision for them.

I do understand where you are coming from, but I think we should be clear on this issue. It's not for the purpose of beating up or condemnation. It's for the sake of light and hope.

Let's listen to Paul again on a few things... Let's see his mindset.

2Co 7:8-10
For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. (9) Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. (10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2Ti 2:25-26
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Sure, you can accuse me of lacking meekness here, but I don't think it will completely stick. After pausing for a few days, I have resumed my mode of making appeals on this matter. I am not condemning. I am putting important things on the table for close inspection. I am working to persuade by means of scripture and willing to accept that I may not have the best way to do it. If you can help, rather than just resist the idea of it, then please show me how to present it more meekly.

So far, I am seeing denial. It is denial that is partly based on a sincere belief that 'idolatry' does not apply at the level that I seem to be saying that it does. However, it is also denial that may be partly based on an unwillingness to acknowledge the underlying truth of the matter.

I'm not judging either way on this last point regarding the reasons that others don't think 'idolatry' is as prevalent. I do not know. However, I am going to continue to bring more scripture to bear on the subject and try to discuss it with everyone as things come up. I'm doing this for the sake of the truth and not for the sake of being right or wrong.

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm just going to jump in here and make an observation about the "some who do not qualify." Those in the LC who do not qualify, or, those who do not "worship the idol", do not remain. Or, should I say, cannot remain. How can anyone remain in the LC without worshipping the idol? Is that possible?

Nell

Yes, it is possible.