How Can This Forum Improve?

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But for those, as you say, who are sleeping peacefully in the LC's, and do not have an "inner nag" bothering them, I have no delusions that a million forums would affect them. They have been successfully "inoculated" as they say, and if their spiritual needs are being met, then I am truly happy for them. There's no such thing as a perfect church; many are far worse than the Recovery; and some of the LC's are actually quite decent, as I have been told.

I have lived in both Cleveland and Anaheim. In both I have seen the "true believers (in the LC)" and the "true believers(in finding Christ)."

There are many I know, even neck deep in "LSM churches" who approach their faith quite simply. Enjoyment of Christ is not just a "pill" to eat - but an engagement with their savior in their life. The "church life" is not just "speaking the same thing" etc... but rather a mutual concern over the lives of their brothers and sisters. Sure, they are exposed to the arguments around "leadership" and "oneness" and "dissenting ones." But they keep doing what they were doing before the argument arose. Seeking to find CHrist in their lives and caring for those around them.

I will add that these ones I speak of are either 1) second generation who lost their faith, but then regained it through trevail; 2) first generation who found a way of living that completely awakened them in contrast to their former life.

I do not know many second generation who haven't had a crisis of faith - wherein they had to choose their faith - who are simple in this way. Most who persist in their faith simply based on upbringing generally care very much about the "elitist" type doctrines. I was guilty of this for many years. These seem to be the most zealous ones.

This is, of course, a very broad observation - but its borne out at least in this limited experience.

Point is, if people genuinely engage with God, it may not lead them out of a flawed situation - they might just find God right there in all His multifarious wisdom and varied grace.

My great uncle was a Lutheran scholar. He once explained that he knew all the ways in which the Lutheran church was not aligned with Scripture. He would write and speak to discuss these matters. But he couldn't leave. Because that's where, he said, God wanted Him.

None of this is to say that we don't speak out concerning error or abuse. You speak it out, but perhaps judgement is for Someone else.

Just some scattered thoughts...

Thanks all for these posts. Very encouraging.

Peter

[Truth]

Thanks for your post, Peter. I feel the same way. Sometimes finding Christ may not mean the same thing as finding another 'church'. The Lord may want us to stay where we are, in a degraded church life, and find Christ there and minister Christ to others there. There is no perfect church. We could be church-hopping forever and never find Christ. However, that is not to say that we should not seek to find another church if the Lord leads us to do so. Bottomline is we need to remember to find Christ wherever we are and meet with the church wherever the Lord leads. But the Lord may or may not lead us to the church of our choice.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Sometimes finding Christ may not mean the same thing as finding another 'church'. The Lord may want us to stay where we are, in a degraded church life, and find Christ there and minister Christ to others there. There is no perfect church. We could be church-hopping forever and never find Christ.

It is simply dishonest and unfair to categorize every member in the LC's as mindless robots following the ministry like "lemmings over the cliff." (Fortunately for us, the more dogmatic forum posters have recently gone into remission.) Generalizations are like prejudices -- they pick the worst traits of a few, and then label the whole. God is not like that. He does not look on the outward, but on the heart.

When I entered the Recovery during the 70's, there was a continual cry to "come out of her My people," based on a prophetic verse concerning Babylon. At the time, it made so much sense that all of Christianity was fallen and degraded Babylon, and only the Recovery was the true testimony of the Lord. Much of the prideful arrogance that gets exhibited in the Recovery is rooted in that cry. Personally, as I entered the Recovery, I voiced nothing but contempt for the rest of the body of Christ.

Oh how things have changed. Witness Lee never had the absolute manifest godliness and lockup on the truth that he always led us to believe. Fact is the Recovery has at least as many problems as the rest of the body of Christ, maybe more. The expressly claimed exclusiveness of God's blessing and presence was nothing more than a myth. Yes, His Spirit was often with us, but He was also with all the other congregations too -- those dreaded denominations and despised free groups.

It's amazing to think back on how that exhortation in Revelation 18.4 affected me, and not for the better. How could I condemn all the systems in Christianity and not condemn the Christians too? Witness Lee (as John Darby before him) definitely used that verse for personal gain. That teaching was so unbalanced. Perhaps I was just worse than the other brothers around me. I can never forget the time after my first Revelation Training in Anaheim that I was talking to my dear mother about destroying her idols -- eventually the brother with me started kicking me under the table to stop it.

Why did we not take our cue from all the other churches in the New Testament? They all had their problems. None was perfect. Think about what was going on in Corinth! Yet the Apostles only exhorted the believers to overcome the difficulties and not to completely forsake those churches. The answers to their problems did not lie in the severity of God to forsake them, but in His love to shepherd them to greener pastures.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why did we not take our cue from all the other churches in the New Testament? They all had their problems. None was perfect. Think about what was going on in Corinth! Yet the Apostles only exhorted the believers to overcome the difficulties and not to completely forsake those churches. The answers to their problems did lie in the severity of God to forsake them, but in His love to shepherd them to greener pastures.

It's interesting that WL always interpreted things to mean you should come to or stay in his movement.

"Come out of her my people." To what? The Recovery, of course!

Then he twisted your correct teaching above to mean that you should stay in one of his churches through thick and thin, and no matter how much like "her" they became.

A self-serving double-standard? Well, yeah. But what traction that mindset has.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

It's interesting that WL always interpreted things to mean you should come to or stay in his movement.

"Come out of her my people." To what? The Recovery, of course!

Then he twisted your correct teaching above to mean that you should stay in one of his churches through thick and thin, and no matter how much like "her" they became.

A self-serving double-standard? Well, yeah. But what traction that mindset has.

I found the balancing corollary of "come out of her my people" to be "In whatever situation you found yourself when you were called, in this you should remain." 1 Corinthians 7:17,24