Questions about Daystar

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

UntoHim, did you get a new car with your tax refund?

I've never really wanted any kind of tattoo before but that grill design is very tempting. That is awesome.

Reminds me of "The Planet Killer" from Star Trek.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

I've never really wanted any kind of tattoo before but that grill design is very tempting.

Maybe we could superimpose the LSM logo onto the Daystar grill and sell T-shirts at the next training ... color coordinated with the "god-man" socks, of course.

Here's a link for the last remaining Daystar collectible:

http://www.allmanufacturedhomes.com/...75_daystar.htm

[IDon'tKnow]

This is off topic and irrelevant.

But nonetheless this was the first question which popped into my head when I heard about daystar.

Daystar = Lucifer. therefore is another name for Satan.

ergo, out of all the names which you could have for your christian business why would you choose daystar. I mean sure maybe the business was called that beforehand but irregardless why would you want to keep that name.

I also find it strange that there is a christian tv network named daystar for that matter.

[UntoHim]

IDon'tKnow,
I've always assumed that this is where the term "day star" comes from:

2Peter 1:19 (KJV)
"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts" (most modern versions have it as "morning star")




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[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Maybe we could superimpose the LSM logo onto the Daystar grill and sell T-shirts at the next training ... color coordinated with the "god-man" socks, of course.

Here's a link for the last remaining Daystar collectible:

http://www.allmanufacturedhomes.com/...75_daystar.htm

They could only have even considered, much less executed, that grill design in the 1970s in California.

Clearly the work product of deluded dreamers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by YP0534

I've never really wanted any kind of tattoo before but that grill design is very tempting. That is awesome.

Reminds me of "The Planet Killer" from Star Trek.

Yes, it's intimidating, isn't it? When you're driving down the highway, and glance back and see that starburst grill getting larger in your rear view mirror surely you're going to yield! Like before an LSM lawsuit!

[Cal]

Couple of Daystar pictures on this recreational vehicle page.

http://home.comcast.net/~robmorg/oldmh/oldmh.htm

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Couple of Daystar pictures on this recreational vehicle page.

http://home.comcast.net/~robmorg/oldmh/oldmh.htm

The caption from the "Old and Unusual Motorhomes" website says this:

This 1975 Daystar, with a luxurious teak wood interior, is one of only 16 made by Daystar Motorhomes of Compton Cal. Could it have possibly been the front grill design that did the company in?

I nominate the Daystar for the Motor Home Hall of Fame.

[Cal]

Gotta love this one:



Her: "Uh, no dear. Only one of us can fit at a time. Anyway, you have to drive."

Him: "But this is the way to the driver's seat."

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Couple of Daystar pictures on this recreational vehicle page.

http://home.comcast.net/~robmorg/oldmh/oldmh.htm

Quote from this site:
"Could it have possibly been the front grill design that did the company in?"

If only they knew.

[IDon'tKnow]

I think if we look at how Daystar was handled it pretty much explains how the majority of things are handled by LSM now. Rather than repenting for daystar Witness Lee and many of the leading brothers instead chose to use fleshly means to deal with the fallout. (The doing of at least borderline illegal things funnelling money into daystar constitutes fleshly and if your doing such things to deal with the fallout of your wrong doing you obviously haven't repented.)

Given that the brother's failed to trust in the Lord for the aftermath of daystar, this led to them not to trust in the Lord for the cult books, instead taking them to court and going against God's word. Instead of trusting the in the Lord for the oneness of the saints instead having to enforce a manmade political oneness.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by IDon'tKnow

I think if we look at how Daystar was handled it pretty much explains how the majority of things are handled by LSM now.

Knowing that Daystar investor "payouts" to upset LC "investors" occurred in the mid-70's, following some highly questionable business practices which resulted in bankruptcy, I wonder how this all escaped the prying eyes of the Thomas Nelson (publisher of Mindbenders) legal team just a few years later?

[IDon'tKnow]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Knowing that Daystar investor "payouts" to upset LC "investors" occurred in the mid-70's, following some highly questionable business practices which resulted in bankruptcy, I wonder how this all escaped the prying eyes of the Thomas Nelson (publisher of Mindbenders) legal team just a few years later?

I think this could probably be considered one of the biggest proofs that the Mindbenders wasn't very well researched. After all Daystar would have been a gold nugget making their case. Also something which you should keep in mind is that at least by the time that Sal Benoit made his tape recording daystar had not gone bankrupt. It would seem that Witness Lee would not allow this to happen and that He funneled money out of LSM into daystar to prevent this from happening. Therefore I'm guessing there wouldn't be any obvious documents of a bankruptcy lying around. To find out about it they probably would have had to hunt down and interview ex-members.

[aron]

Originally Posted by IDon'tKnow

Given that the brother's failed to trust in the Lord for the aftermath of daystar, this led to them not to trust in the Lord for the cult books, instead taking them to court and going against God's word. Instead of trusting the in the Lord for the oneness of the saints instead having to enforce a manmade political oneness.

The seed of the eventual decline was there with daystar, and it was small, and covered by much flowing of the Spirit. Many were getting saved, testimonies of lives changed were common, God was still very prevailing. Later the Spirit began to dry up, fewer and fewer new sinners came and confessed before the throne of God, and the seed began to grow and sprout. Eventually there was, for many of us, no more Spirit, just a great big tree full of the birds of the earth. We thought we had left religion; in fact we had merely started a new one.

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Let us stand fast, therefore, and not be entangled again in the yoke of slavery." - Paul of Tarsus

[Oregon]

A lot of truth in this statement Aron.

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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The seed of the eventual decline was there with daystar, and it was small, and covered by much flowing of the Spirit. Many were getting saved, testimonies of lives changed were common, God was still very prevailing. Later the Spirit began to dry up, fewer and fewer new sinners came and confessed before the throne of God, and the seed began to grow and sprout. Eventually there was, for many of us, no more Spirit, just a great big tree full of the birds of the earth. We thought we had left religion; in fact we had merely started a new one.

I wonder how much of that flowing of the Spirit was common to all God's children at that time, in the chaotic era of the late 60's - early 70's called "Jesus people movement." Somehow the LC leaders felt that the blessing was exclusive to us, since we were the unique testimony of God on earth.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by aron

The seed of the eventual decline was there with daystar...We thought we had left religion; in fact we had merely started a new one

Sorry guys, but the Local Church was never, ever any better then the "fallen Christianity" it claimed to be "recovered" from, otherwise Daystar would not have happened to begin with. As a matter of fact, we now know that this was not the first time that Witness Lee attempted to enrich himself and his sons through the fleecing of Local Church members.

We also know that Lee pulled the same shenanigans in the Far East, pilfering a number of LC members of their life savings, and now we know this is the reason that Lee decided to bless our fair land with his LC religion, and not because he cared so much for all us poor, poor blind and christless Americans.

So when discussing the Daystar debacle I think it is important to keep in mind that this was only one of many business "investment" boondoggles in which Local Churchers ended up taking a financial bath, while Lee and his sons escaped relatively unscathed.

If there is any doubt in anyone's mind about how messed up and unethical the Daystar "business" was, they need to review this:
http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...chInBoston.pdf

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[aron]

Speaking of money-raising efforts, does anyone remember the skyscraper in Taipei? I was on my way out of the LCs, and meeting with them very infrequently, when one day I stopped by and saw a video being shown. They were building a 50 story building in Teipei, and it had some name like "Lotus Flower" or "Nightingale" or something. Cultural, maybe. Here we call buildings "45 Washington Place" or such.

Anyway, this was to raise $ for the propogation of the gospel through the far east, if I recall. Probably a little word was passed to the effect that there was an "opportunity" for the saints to contribute to this project, but I was disinterested at this point and barely paying attention. I wonder how that one turned out? Part of the building was supposed to be for LSM (China) offices, and part was to be rented out, with the rent being used for some Godly work.

I also remember on more than one occasion Lee speaking pointedly about the Baptists and Methodists failing in God's commission by constructing hospitals and universities. Getting entangled in the world, and all that. Our mission, said Lee, is to declare Christ, not to build buildings. Hmm...

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

Speaking of money-raising efforts, does anyone remember the skyscraper in Taipei?

The building project was completed. When the brothers spoke regarding this project, the base floor was for the ministry and the rest of the building would be leased out.

Terry

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Speaking of money-raising efforts, does anyone remember the skyscraper in Taipei? Anyway, this was to raise $ for the propogation of the gospel through the far east, if I recall...I also remember on more than one occasion Lee speaking pointedly about the Baptists and Methodists failing in God's commission by constructing hospitals and universities. Getting entangled in the world, and all that. Our mission, said Lee, is to declare Christ, not to build buildings. Hmm...

Aron, sure I remember that. Isn't there a plaque in the lobby with a quote from WN about the word of God alone is our standard ... as you say, "Hmm ..."

Anyone else notice, that in so many ways, how LSM has condemned others, so they are guilty of the same ... just as the Scripture saith, "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things." --Rom 2.1

[IDon'tKnow]

Oh yeah.
I remember on the other forum seeing a thread about Daystar and LINKO. But Daystar was talked about on the thread pretty much to the exclusion of LINKO. All I know is that LINKO was a building project that was never constructed. When was LINKO? What was it meant to be for? Why wasn't it constructed? and where did the money go?
Does anybody know anything about LINKO?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by IDon'tKnow

Oh yeah.
I remember on the other forum seeing a thread about Daystar and LINKO. But Daystar was talked about on the thread pretty much to the exclusion of LINKO. All I know is that LINKO was a building project that was never constructed. When was LINKO? What was it meant to be for? Why wasn't it constructed? and where did the money go? Does anybody know anything about LINKO?

I was in Irving (probably mid 80's) when they sprung that one. I was staying at the hall between meetings after lunch and the young people were writing rah, rah songs "Let's go Linko, Let's go Linko, yeah, yeah, yeah ..." I found it hard to believe, and strange to say the least, coming from the midwest. I remember thinking that these Texas saints really were as "absolute for the ministry," as had been rumored back in Ohio.

Linko was a property outside Taipei city limits where LSM planned to purchase land and build a civic arena auditorium which could hold all the saints at one time bussed in from all Taiwan. Who knows what happened. They never informed us. Where did the money go? Good question.

[Hope]

Linko was something that the office came up with. It was presented as an example of the wonderful God ordained leadership of the recovery. After a lot of money was raised and spent on the property and many plans made and a great hub bub made, the brilliant office learned that the land had not been approved for development and was basically useless.

I never supported this project and the young BBs promoted it as a means to humble the elders. Minuro gave a stirring speech at an elders coworkers meeting about how the elders would be blessed if they went to Linko and shoveled dirt. He promised that the Spirit would enliven you as you shoveled dirt and they would be greatly rewarded spiritually if they gave up being an elder and went to Linko to shovel dirt.

Just another boondoggle. Just another ridiculous project proposed by the office and the deputy authority. How things had changed!! Yet the Daystar fiasco was the beginning in the USA of one scheme after another which was divinely judged. We were very much like the nation of Israel. We had great victories and huge failures. Solomon built the temple and then his immorality and projects caused the nation to be divided. The Bible is faithful to record both the victories and blessings and the defeats and failures. But there is hope. The Lord is never defeated. God is faithful. What He has promised He will do. The Lord has won the victory.

I really like Rom 4:19-21, And without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief, but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what He had promised, He was able also to perform. NASB

Another favorite passage in these days is from the Old Testament, (I just must quote it here. We in NC have a wonderful hymn based on this passage.)

Zeph 3:9 - 20 "For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,that all of them may call on the name of the LORD, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder. 10 "From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones, Will bring My offerings. 11 "In that day you will feel no shame Because of all your deeds by which you have rebelled against Me; for then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain. 12 "But I will leave among you A humble and lowly people, and they will take refuge in the name of the LORD. 13 "The remnant of Israel will do no wrong and tell no lies, nor will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouths; for they shall feed and lie down with no one to make them tremble."
14 Shout for joy, O daughter of Zion!Shout in triumph, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem! 15 The LORD has taken away His judgments against you, He has cleared away your enemies. The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst; you will fear disaster no more. 16 In that day it will be said to Jerusalem: "Do not be afraid, O Zion; Do not let your hands fall limp. 17 "The LORD your God is in your midst, a victorious warrior. He will exult over you with joy, He will be quiet in His love, He will rejoice over you with shouts of joy. 18 "I will gather those who grieve about the appointed feasts — They came from you, O Zion; The reproach of exile is a burden on them. 19 "Behold, I am going to deal at that time with all your oppressors, I will save the lame And gather the outcast, and I will turn their shame into praise and renown in all the earth. 20 "At that time I will bring you in, even at the time when I gather you together; Indeed, I will give you renown and praise Among all the peoples of the earth,When I restore your fortunes before your eyes,"Says the LORD. NASB

Much Peace and Grace to all in our Lord Jesus Christ,


Hope

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Hope

Linko was something that the office came up with. It was presented as an example of the wonderful God ordained leadership of the recovery. After a lot of money was raised and spent on the property and many plans made and a great hub bub made, the brilliant office learned that the land had not been approved for development and was basically useless.

Welcome back HOPE!!

Question:
In the 70's when I was in San Diego, we had very, very few messages on 'tithings & offerings'. The 'collection box' was in the back of the meeting hall and we rarely heard anyone talking about placing offerings. We learned by watching people place their offerings in the box.

I believe the boxes are still at the back of the meeting halls not readily seen.

During the Daystar, Linko projects, did the elders ask the congregation to reach into their pockets to give to these projects?The only 'project' I recall being pushed on us were the Chinese calendars w/the grotesquely, ugly fish that looked demonic to me. I think vitamins were also pushed on us but that was more word by mouth unlike the calendars which were pushed on us at the end of the messages at the meeting hall.

[Cal]

I'll probably regret asking, but what does "LINKO" mean?

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I'll probably regret asking, but what does "LINKO" mean?

It's a district just outside Taipei. That's all.

[Intothewind]

Yep. Largest and newest(as of my time there) building at the La Palma area where they host conferences. Apparently the single largest bathroom in the near area(even Disneyland? I suppose), listed as an official earthquake refuge building due to its solid construction.

Many from all over helped-brothers from far away frequently stayed for months on site put up in trailers. I helped out a few times-laying bricks for the parking lot, planting planters, scrubbing down the concrete. Such a strange world we were in. I always had trouble believing that God's purpose boiled down to this strange little plot in Anaheim. Weird weird weird.

I wonder how much they make selling those Chinese banners, calendars, and other paraphernalia? I'm sure Morning revival addiction is a key part. I for one never bought one. Shortly before leaving I remember my Dad making a bigger deal about 10% donation of ones earnings(I had begun working-somehow survived in LB on 1099 and a little less than 10 grand)...I had money to spare but didn't think that giving to God's purpose necessarily meant one particular offering box. It is sad to see saints money so frivolously wasted away.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Intothewind

Shortly before leaving I remember my Dad making a bigger deal about 10% donation of ones earnings(I had begun working-somehow survived in LB on 1099 and a little less than 10 grand)...I had money to spare but didn't think that giving to God's purpose necessarily meant one particular offering box. It is sad to see saints money so frivolously wasted away.

Difference for me between non-LSM affiliated churches and LSM affiliated churches, I have the peace to give when meeting with a non-LSM affiliated church. While meeting with various local churches, I never had the peace to give.
How was the money being used? There's no assurances if I choose to give that the locality would send the money to LSM for another real estate venture, to DCP for the next lawsuit, etc. If I put a disclaimer "not to be used for LSM, DCP, BFA, etc," how will that go over with the brothers counting the giving?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Intothewind

Shortly before leaving I remember my Dad making a bigger deal about 10% donation of ones earnings

I grew up with the 10% of income doctrine. It came natural to me.

Now, after hearing about what Lee said of those that lost their investment in Daystar, that, "They lost their virginity," I can't agree with it anymore. Lee broke me of that habit. Now I look at it like it's more of what took the virginity in the first place ... without a kiss.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by awareness

I grew up with the 10% of income doctrine. It came natural to me.

When elders start pledging to LSM who much their localities can be expected to pledge to a lawsuit, speaking of what's natural....
When I was meeting with the Church in Bellevue, what the lead elder at the time resounds very truthfully; "there's no democracy in the churchlife". When it comes to giving, brothers and sisters are at the mercy how their giving is utilized.
Personally, I would prefer used to help less fortunate households of the congregation than for the next "flow".

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

"there's no democracy in the churchlife".

Says who? The Bible? Or the Minister of the Age, the Grand Pooh-Bah? Is this more wisdom from Apostolus Maximus, the Seer of the Age?

I've seen churches that were more democratic, and that functioned better than the LC, with less storms, turmoils, and rebellions. But they aren't 'normal'? According to whose idea of normal? Watchman Nee's absolutist "Hand everything over and get in line" model?

I seem to remember in the counsel in Jerusalem, everybody got to speak (see Acts 15, esp vv 6 & 7). Did everybody get to speak in the LC churchlife? No. Only one trumpet allowed, they said. Pfft. Not normal at all.

Daystar, among other doozies, came out of the "Brother Lee says" model of the churchlife, which Terry referenced above... no democracy, no checks and balances, no reasoning or examining to see if these things are so (Acts 17:11). No testing, and no proving (1 John 4:1, 1 Thess 5:21). Just "be one with our brother" and "even when he's wrong he's right". Again I ask, just how normal is this kind of churchlife?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by awareness

I grew up with the 10% of income doctrine. It came natural to me.

Now, after hearing about what Lee said of those that lost their investment in Daystar, that, "They lost their virginity," I can't agree with it anymore. Lee broke me of that habit. Now I look at it like it's more of what took the virginity in the first place ... without a kiss.

Does anyone have a citation or reference for the "lost their virginity" quote attributed to WL?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Does anyone have a citation or reference for the "lost their virginity" quote attributed to WL?

It was from an email written by Don Hardy to Steve Isitt. Hardy was an officer of Daystar, and present in the meeting when this was spoken.

Lee's public comment was in response to a question by Dick Taylor in the aftermath of the Daystar debacle. Dick had in mind all those hurt and disillusioned in the LC's who had invested in the scam.

Lee responded that they had "lost their virginity." Pathetic!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It was from an email written by Don Hardy to Steve Isitt. Hardy was an officer of Daystar, and present in the meeting when this was spoken.

Lee's public comment was in response to a question by Dick Taylor in the aftermath of the Daystar debacle. Dick had in mind all those hurt and disillusioned in the LC's who had invested in the scam.

Lee responded that they had "lost their virginity." Pathetic!

Not a quote you'd want attributed to the Minister of the Age. He could have easily said, I never forced anyone to invest.

On another note in light of concerns Dick has had then and in the late 80's, he's managed to remain absolute for the ministry.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Terry

Not a quote you'd want attributed to the Minister of the Age. He could have easily said, I never forced anyone to invest.

On another note in light of concerns Dick has had then and in the late 80's, he's managed to remain absolute for the ministry.

The "they lost their virginity" statement reveals that from Daystar the Lee family was laughing all the way to the bank ... and laughing at the investors into Daystar as fools ... that they Bill-Cosbyed.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It was from an email written by Don Hardy to Steve Isitt. Hardy was an officer of Daystar, and present in the meeting when this was spoken.

I thought I remembered there being a similar statement in the phone conversation with Sal B. Maybe I have just merged the two over time.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

I thought I remembered there being a similar statement in the phone conversation with Sal B. Maybe I have just merged the two over time.

I also thought I remembered that it was said on the phone with Sal B in Boston.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It was from an email written by Don Hardy to Steve Isitt. Hardy was an officer of Daystar, and present in the meeting when this was spoken.

Lee's public comment was in response to a question by Dick Taylor in the aftermath of the Daystar debacle. Dick had in mind all those hurt and disillusioned in the LC's who had invested in the scam.

Lee responded that they had "lost their virginity." Pathetic!

Sorry, the question was not asked by DT, but by John Smith of San Diego.

Here is the quote ...

Don Hardy to Steve Isitt: Some time after DayStar failure, we had a "BIG" elders gathering: and John Smith from San Diego asked WL a question: "Brother Lee, HOW could sooooo many saints fall into soooo much pain and trouble, since DayStar? So many have never been restored! And frankly, I don’t know how to help them" (And Steve, other bros there also "amen'd" and groaned along with John's question). Here's what Witness Lee answered: "Brothers when the saints FIRST came into "the recovery" they were "VIRGINS" BUT, MANY of them have now LOST their virginity!"

John was AGAST!! "Why, Brother Lee, WHAT do you mean, lost their virginity?" WL: "Well Brother, THEY allowed themselves to be SEDUCED away from their purity and singleness with Christ alone." WOW Steve! NOT ONE Brother caught what WL was saying; but I (yes, I) DID! Not one of them realized (Steve -- this is how much darkness most were in, and still are....); not one realized: "Why, the "little precious man" sitting right in front of us, IS THE MAN who seduced us all!!"

But at that moment for once, I LISTENED to the Holy Spirit and God's Light, realizing: "THIS is the man!" I was so sad. I STILL LOVED Brother Lee, and prayed much for him; BUT my eyes were further opened to the MIXTURE we were all involved in. So, in Los Angeles, and then Rosemead, we began to "separate" ourselves, unto the LORD ALONE. We still received TRUTH; but never again, just gullibly accepted "everything." THIS turn has saved the saints in Rosemead, even up to today.

[Freedom]

It's just sheer arrogance that Lee could say that the saints had "lost their virginity" and were "seduced", but not flat out admit that he was the one who had been seducing everyone. He knew he had made a big mistake, and he also knew that he would never have to fully answer to his actions.

Daystar - 1973

While spending this last weekend in Canton, TX with another couple passing out Bibles and cards and tracts, I was speaking with this sister who had been in the Lord's Recovery since 1973. I had received the Lord Jan, 1972 and was meeting in Eldon Hall in Los Angeles. We were remembering all the places we lived and the people we knew and how much we had crossed paths with each other yet never meeting. One of the subjects that came up was Daystar Motor Homes. When my husband and I returned home we were sitting and fellowshipping concerning the weekend's time with this other couple. I mentioned Daystar and he said he wished after all these years that we still had the sales brochure of it. I "googled" Daystar Motor Homes and up pops 4 pictures of it. As I was scrolling down the topics I glanced at the link - Daystar - Local Church Discussions. I read every one of your posts or blogs. Some truth, lots of inaccuracies. I have prayed much before responding to these posts, but here goes ....

I worked at Daystar from May, 1973 to May, 1974. I was a secretary to Philip Lee in the office. My husband also worked at Daystar and he worked in the plant in the Shipping/Receiving department. It seemed like for that year we lived, ate and breathed Daystar, not only 8 hour workday but taking packages to post office and LAX in the evenings. I want to clear up some of the inaccuracies given in these posts. You can respond with accusations, innuendos, rancor and bitterness, but I know what I lived and what I saw.

Concerning the Daystar itself --- nothing in that motorhome was fake. The Dodge 440 chassis was excellent but the Daystar was too heavy, way too heavy for the chassis. Why? Could it be the Onyx and granite countertops both in the kitchen and bathroom? Could it have been the solid gold plated faucets in the sinks? The dashboard was burl wood, the finest quality burl from overseas. The leather in the front seats and cushions were high grade leather. The Corten steel came in rolls and was sent to, I believe Kaohsiung, where it was beaten into shape by men with small hammers and then the shell shipped back to Compton ready to be attached to the Dodge chassis. The star on the front grill was completely chrome plated and when they arrived there wasn't a scratch or ding on them. They just shone brilliantly. It had a horn on the top that could be heard clearly. It was never sounded in the plant for it would probably have shattered eardrums. The shower/tub was unique and the kitchen was ideal. Anyway, no expense was spared in the making of those 3 motorhomes for display.

I believe there were 16-18 total shells, 3 of them made and equipped in the plant. The green one was the prototype. Remember this was 1973 and that green was a "puke" color green that was all the rage at that time on cars. I had a 1972 Chevy Vega that color. There were also a brown coach and a blue coach. On 2/13/74 my husband and I were married in that brown coach in the plant. We felt that it was fitting that since we got to know each other there in the plant and spent so much time there to get married in one of those coaches. Francis Ball officiated at the signing of our marriage papers. It happened at 5:30 after work and we were cleaned up and out of there by 6:15.

Having said all this ... 3 of the coaches were displayed at the fairgrounds. All the female "models" were sisters in the church. None of them wore bikinis. This was an elegant, classy motorhome displayed for the very rich monied class of people. The selling price was $42,000 not the $72,000 as some posted here. Back in 1973 $42,000 was out of the majority of anyone's earnings.

I don't believe they even sold 1 during that time and shortly thereafter the oil embargo began. Lines around the gas stations were bad. Then you could only get gas on odd or even days, which ever number your license plate had. Not only was the oil embargo bad, but interest rates were high. The company went bankrupt shortly after that.

So, the question remains ... why? Like someone posted on here, the Lord wasn't interesting in making and selling motorhomes .. period! Hindsight is 20/20. You can concur and speculate all you want about this and that, but the Lord "blew" on it and it failed. Do you really believe that Bro. Lee had ulterior motives? I doubt it. I was in those meetings with Brother Lee and he or any of those brothers never "strongarmed" the sheep to hand over their money for this venture. There was a speaking of an "opportunity" to participate. I think what the saints didn't realize at the time that Daystar was a "business". Even though the majority of workers there were saints ... it wasn't the church. Every brother and sister made a choice to participate in that business. Brother Lee felt bad and repented that the saints lost money. He asked for forgiveness. So, many wouldn't take that repentance and have held on to their anger and resentment all these years. I can't believe this stuff is still floating around on the internet. The man passed in 1997 and he will stand before the Lord and give an account. But I believe the Lord has forgiven him, have you forgiven him?

Some have stipulated that Philip Lee made off like a bandit. I worked with Philip Lee for a year. Was he a bad man? No! Was he a man who lived according to his flesh? Yes! He smelled like cigarettes and more than likely he might have had an alcohol problem. But, I never saw him drink during the day at the office. A man who lives according to his flesh is going to be fleshly, given to lusts of his flesh. Could he have had indiscretions? Perhaps! Did everyone blame Brother Lee for his son? Absolutely! So, tell me, after this long period of time, you all who have children around the age of 40, how well have you been able to control your sons? Everyone assumed Brother Lee would do something about his son. His son was a grown man. Brother Lee was not an elder in the church of Los Angeles or the church in Anaheim? The elders should have dealt with Philip Lee, not his father.

And concerning LSM bailing out Daystar. It didn't happen. LSM is a non-profit organization and has to abide by the laws of the government, which means all the money goes back into the organization. The ledgers are open to anyone who wants to take a look. My husband drove Philip Lee home one time and was invited in. Philip Lee lived a modest life in the duplex next to Brother Lee. My husband sat in his kitchen and it was modest. I remember Philip Lee cutting up white envelopes at the office when mail came in and stapling them together to create a note pad. The Daystar letterhead was only used for special occasions and correspondence. This doesn't sound to me like someone living in extravagance? My husband and I knew brother Lee and his children, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Al Knoch (who I miss dearly, such a precious brother). I worked at Pacesetting Services, which was owned by Al and his brother. We knew Dave Higgins and the other brothers and sisters working at Daystar.

We all make mistakes, some minor, some grave. When we repent and ask forgiveness does the Lord not cleanse, forgive and forget? He who is without sin cast the first stone? Dear brothers and sisters, it's time to let it go. Let the past stay in the past under the blood. Let us each pursue toward the goal. Wake up, look around! The Lord is coming soon. Be steadfast until the end. The Lord is calling His overcomers to rise up and be filled with Him. This process of transformation is very long, even life long. Many mistakes are made along the way. So, forgetting the things which are behind, we press on toward the goal of the high-calling of God in Christ Jesus.

BTW we are still meeting in the church - 43 years now, married 41 years, raised 3 beautiful and accomplished children. The Lord is richer today than when I was in my 20's. When I received the Lord I prayed, "Lord, always keep me in the center of what You are doing on this earth." I have asked many, many times to those that left that if they found something better to please let me know? No one, not even one has responded with anything better. I praise the Lord for His sovereignity in my life and for keeping me where I can be cherished and nourished to grow in life and to be build with others to love, manifest and express Him. Those are not just teachings and doctrines to me, but they are my life.

Donnali Peters

[awareness]

Donnali Peters, thanks for discussing that which you say we shouldn't be discussing.

By the way, we have a member here that was the accountant for Daystar, and who was kicked out of the LC, and refusing to recant, that he knew Witness Lee committed crimes.

So sis, maybe you were too idealistic back in those days to see what was really going on.

Much could be said, but why pop the bubble of someone still living in a dream world.

Blessings sis. Thanks for dropping in. Join up so we can talk some more. It's not like me, but I promise to be gentle.

Harold ...

Post left:

Originally Posted by LOL@donnali.com

Daystar - 1973

While spending this last weekend in Canton, TX with another couple passing out Bibles and cards and tracts, I was speaking with this sister who had been in the Lord's Recovery since 1973. I had received the Lord Jan, 1972 and was meeting in Eldon Hall in Los Angeles. We were remembering all the places we lived and the people we knew and how much we had crossed paths with each other yet never meeting. One of the subjects that came up was Daystar Motor Homes. When my husband and I returned home we were sitting and fellowshipping concerning the weekend's time with this other couple. I mentioned Daystar and he said he wished after all these years that we still had the sales brochure of it. I "googled" Daystar Motor Homes and up pops 4 pictures of it. As I was scrolling down the topics I glanced at the link - Daystar - Local Church Discussions. I read every one of your posts or blogs. Some truth, lots of inaccuracies. I have prayed much before responding to these posts, but here goes ....

I worked at Daystar from May, 1973 to May, 1974. I was a secretary to Philip Lee in the office. My husband also worked at Daystar and he worked in the plant in the Shipping/Receiving department. It seemed like for that year we lived, ate and breathed Daystar, not only 8 hour workday but taking packages to post office and LAX in the evenings. I want to clear up some of the inaccuracies given in these posts. You can respond with accusations, innuendos, rancor and bitterness, but I know what I lived and what I saw.

Concerning the Daystar itself --- nothing in that motorhome was fake. The Dodge 440 chassis was excellent but the Daystar was too heavy, way too heavy for the chassis. Why? Could it be the Onyx and granite countertops both in the kitchen and bathroom? Could it have been the solid gold plated faucets in the sinks? The dashboard was burl wood, the finest quality burl from overseas. The leather in the front seats and cushions were high grade leather. The Corten steel came in rolls and was sent to, I believe Kaohsiung, where it was beaten into shape by men with small hammers and then the shell shipped back to Compton ready to be attached to the Dodge chassis. The star on the front grill was completely chrome plated and when they arrived there wasn't a scratch or ding on them. They just shone brilliantly. It had a horn on the top that could be heard clearly. It was never sounded in the plant for it would probably have shattered eardrums. The shower/tub was unique and the kitchen was ideal. Anyway, no expense was spared in the making of those 3 motorhomes for display.

I believe there were 16-18 total shells, 3 of them made and equipped in the plant. The green one was the prototype. Remember this was 1973 and that green was a "puke" color green that was all the rage at that time on cars. I had a 1972 Chevy Vega that color. There were also a brown coach and a blue coach. On 2/13/74 my husband and I were married in that brown coach in the plant. We felt that it was fitting that since we got to know each other there in the plant and spent so much time there to get married in one of those coaches. Francis Ball officiated at the signing of our marriage papers. It happened at 5:30 after work and we were cleaned up and out of there by 6:15.

Having said all this ... 3 of the coaches were displayed at the fairgrounds. All the female "models" were sisters in the church. None of them wore bikinis. This was an elegant, classy motorhome displayed for the very rich monied class of people. The selling price was $42,000 not the $72,000 as some posted here. Back in 1973 $42,000 was out of the majority of anyone's earnings.

I don't believe they even sold 1 during that time and shortly thereafter the oil embargo began. Lines around the gas stations were bad. Then you could only get gas on odd or even days, which ever number your license plate had. Not only was the oil embargo bad, but interest rates were high. The company went bankrupt shortly after that.

So, the question remains ... why? Like someone posted on here, the Lord wasn't interesting in making and selling motorhomes .. period! Hindsight is 20/20. You can concur and speculate all you want about this and that, but the Lord "blew" on it and it failed. Do you really believe that Bro. Lee had ulterior motives? I doubt it. I was in those meetings with Brother Lee and he or any of those brothers never "strongarmed" the sheep to hand over their money for this venture. There was a speaking of an "opportunity" to participate. I think what the saints didn't realize at the time that Daystar was a "business". Even though the majority of workers there were saints ... it wasn't the church. Every brother and sister made a choice to participate in that business. Brother Lee felt bad and repented that the saints lost money. He asked for forgiveness. So, many wouldn't take that repentance and have held on to their anger and resentment all these years. I can't believe this stuff is still floating around on the internet. The man passed in 1997 and he will stand before the Lord and give an account. But I believe the Lord has forgiven him, have you forgiven him?

Some have stipulated that Philip Lee made off like a bandit. I worked with Philip Lee for a year. Was he a bad man? No! Was he a man who lived according to his flesh? Yes! He smelled like cigarettes and more than likely he might have had an alcohol problem. But, I never saw him drink during the day at the office. A man who lives according to his flesh is going to be fleshly, given to lusts of his flesh. Could he have had indiscretions? Perhaps! Did everyone blame Brother Lee for his son? Absolutely! So, tell me, after this long period of time, you all who have children around the age of 40, how well have you been able to control your sons? Everyone assumed Brother Lee would do something about his son. His son was a grown man. Brother Lee was not an elder in the church of Los Angeles or the church in Anaheim? The elders should have dealt with Philip Lee, not his father.

And concerning LSM bailing out Daystar. It didn't happen. LSM is a non-profit organization and has to abide by the laws of the government, which means all the money goes back into the organization. The ledgers are open to anyone who wants to take a look. My husband drove Philip Lee home one time and was invited in. Philip Lee lived a modest life in the duplex next to Brother Lee. My husband sat in his kitchen and it was modest. I remember Philip Lee cutting up white envelopes at the office when mail came in and stapling them together to create a note pad. The Daystar letterhead was only used for special occasions and correspondence. This doesn't sound to me like someone living in extravagance? My husband and I knew brother Lee and his children, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Al Knoch (who I miss dearly, such a precious brother). I worked at Pacesetting Services, which was owned by Al and his brother. We knew Dave Higgins and the other brothers and sisters working at Daystar.

We all make mistakes, some minor, some grave. When we repent and ask forgiveness does the Lord not cleanse, forgive and forget? He who is without sin cast the first stone? Dear brothers and sisters, it's time to let it go. Let the past stay in the past under the blood. Let us each pursue toward the goal. Wake up, look around! The Lord is coming soon. Be steadfast until the end. The Lord is calling His overcomers to rise up and be filled with Him. This process of transformation is very long, even life long. Many mistakes are made along the way. So, forgetting the things which are behind, we press on toward the goal of the high-calling of God in Christ Jesus.

BTW we are still meeting in the church - 43 years now, married 41 years, raised 3 beautiful and accomplished children. The Lord is richer today than when I was in my 20's. When I received the Lord I prayed, "Lord, always keep me in the center of what You are doing on this earth." I have asked many, many times to those that left that if they found something better to please let me know? No one, not even one has responded with anything better. I praise the Lord for His sovereignity in my life and for keeping me where I can be cherished and nourished to grow in life and to be build with others to love, manifest and express Him. Those are not just teachings and doctrines to me, but they are my life.

Donnali Peters

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by LOL@donnali.com

Some truth, lots of inaccuracies. I have prayed much before responding to these posts, but here goes ....

Concerning the Daystar itself --- nothing in that motorhome was fake. The Dodge 440 chassis was excellent but the Daystar was too heavy, way too heavy for the chassis. Why? Could it be the Onyx and granite countertops both in the kitchen and bathroom? Could it have been the solid gold plated faucets in the sinks? The dashboard was burl wood, the finest quality burl from overseas. The leather in the front seats and cushions were high grade leather. The Corten steel came in rolls and was sent to, I believe Kaohsiung, where it was beaten into shape by men with small hammers and then the shell shipped back to Compton ready to be attached to the Dodge chassis. The star on the front grill was completely chrome plated and when they arrived there wasn't a scratch or ding on them. They just shone brilliantly. It had a horn on the top that could be heard clearly. It was never sounded in the plant for it would probably have shattered eardrums. The shower/tub was unique and the kitchen was ideal. Anyway, no expense was spared in the making of those 3 motorhomes for display.

I believe there were 16-18 total shells, 3 of them made and equipped in the plant. The green one was the prototype. Remember this was 1973 and that green was a "puke" color green that was all the rage at that time on cars. I had a 1972 Chevy Vega that color. There were also a brown coach and a blue coach. On 2/13/74 my husband and I were married in that brown coach in the plant. We felt that it was fitting that since we got to know each other there in the plant and spent so much time there to get married in one of those coaches. Francis Ball officiated at the signing of our marriage papers. It happened at 5:30 after work and we were cleaned up and out of there by 6:15.

Some have stipulated that Philip Lee made off like a bandit. I worked with Philip Lee for a year. Was he a bad man? No! Was he a man who lived according to his flesh? Yes! He smelled like cigarettes and more than likely he might have had an alcohol problem. But, I never saw him drink during the day at the office. A man who lives according to his flesh is going to be fleshly, given to lusts of his flesh. Could he have had indiscretions? Perhaps! Did everyone blame Brother Lee for his son? Absolutely! So, tell me, after this long period of time, you all who have children around the age of 40, how well have you been able to control your sons? Everyone assumed Brother Lee would do something about his son. His son was a grown man. Brother Lee was not an elder in the church of Los Angeles or the church in Anaheim? The elders should have dealt with Philip Lee, not his father.

My husband and I knew brother Lee and his children, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Al Knoch (who I miss dearly, such a precious brother). I worked at Pacesetting Services, which was owned by Al and his brother.

We all make mistakes, some minor, some grave. When we repent and ask forgiveness does the Lord not cleanse, forgive and forget? He who is without sin cast the first stone? Dear brothers and sisters, it's time to let it go. Let the past stay in the past under the blood. Let us each pursue toward the goal. Wake up, look around! The Lord is coming soon. Be steadfast until the end. The Lord is calling His overcomers to rise up and be filled with Him. This process of transformation is very long, even life long. Many mistakes are made along the way. So, forgetting the things which are behind, we press on toward the goal of the high-calling of God in Christ Jesus.

BTW we are still meeting in the church - 43 years now, married 41 years, raised 3 beautiful and accomplished children. The Lord is richer today than when I was in my 20's. When I received the Lord I prayed, "Lord, always keep me in the center of what You are doing on this earth." I have asked many, many times to those that left that if they found something better to please let me know? No one, not even one has responded with anything better. I praise the Lord for His sovereignity in my life and for keeping me where I can be cherished and nourished to grow in life and to be build with others to love, manifest and express Him. Those are not just teachings and doctrines to me, but they are my life.

Donnali Peters

Sister, please clear up inaccuracies regarding Daystar. Because the Daystar venture is so vague, it garners interest whether you're meeting with the local churches or not. One of the last LC home meetings I attended in Renton, WA several brothers engaged in a discussion on Daystar. Caught my attention, but I chose to leave the conversation between the two. A brother I previously served with in another locality also had expressed a keen interest in Daystar.

I believe everything you mentioned of Daystar's interior building material. I had heard much the same before. I am curious if a 440 engine was best suited for an RV.
You mentioned Francis Ball, you must have lived in the Anaheim area. That's where my family lived from January 1976-June 1979 prior to moving to Lake Arrowhead.
Another item to clear out regarding Daystar is it was said not Philip Lee, but Timothy Lee was the one who became wealthy as a result of Daystar. I wasn't even aware of Philip's involvement.
In your post you exhibited fondness for Al Knoch. Last I knew, he is still living in Arlington, Washington. The summer training of 1976, Al's wife and my mom took turns taking care of each others children during the evening training sessions. In retrospect, it's amazing considering my family and the Knoch family each had 5 children.

Your statement, "Let the past stay in the past under the blood", the content to respond to would be far off topic. Best suited for another thread.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by LOL@donnali.com

Some have stipulated that Philip Lee made off like a bandit. I worked with Philip Lee for a year. Was he a bad man? No! Was he a man who lived according to his flesh? Yes! He smelled like cigarettes and more than likely he might have had an alcohol problem. But, I never saw him drink during the day at the office. A man who lives according to his flesh is going to be fleshly, given to lusts of his flesh. Could he have had indiscretions? Perhaps! Did everyone blame Brother Lee for his son? Absolutely! So, tell me, after this long period of time, you all who have children around the age of 40, how well have you been able to control your sons? Everyone assumed Brother Lee would do something about his son. His son was a grown man. Brother Lee was not an elder in the church of Los Angeles or the church in Anaheim? The elders should have dealt with Philip Lee, not his father.

Dear sister Donnali, sorry to be so blunt, but your paragraph here displays excessive naivety.

First of all, no one in the Recovery at the time blamed Witness Lee for having reprobate sons, even though some who have since left would cite Paul's instructions in I Timothy 3.1-7 as satisfactory disqualifications for both Witness and Phillip.

I was active in the LC's for 30 years, before leaving in 2005-06, and here is what has deeply troubled me. Witness Lee told us all during the "storm" of the late 80's that if he "wanted to hire an unbeliever (referring to his son Phillip) as his own personal chef, that was his 'right,'" and we all had to agree with him. Who were we to tell him what to eat? But what Witness Lee purposely failed to tell us was that we too were all required to eat Phillip's toxic "cooking."

For years most of us believed that "the office" at LSM referred to a goodly number of ministry volunteers that transcribed messages, printed books, filled standing orders, etc. After the "New Way" began in the mid-80's, leaders and elders around the world suddenly learned that forced submission to Phillip was paramount to their continuation in the Recovery. Brothers in responsibility around the globe were required to kowtow in forced subjection to the whims of Witness Lee's drunk, abusive, and reprobate son named Phillip. Witness Lee was publicly chastising all the elders for how they "treated his office," while most of the saints were led to believe that their local elders were being rude to the serving sisters at LSM. Talk about deception!

Phillip's dominance over LC leaders, coupled with his molesting of sisters at LSM, is the real reason for the "storm" in Anaheim during the late 80's. Those are the facts! There is no way to spin them any other way! Read all of their accounts. Talk to any of them in person.

But instead of firing his pathetic son, Witness Lee fabricated conspiratorial lies about all of those brothers (like Ingalls, John So, Godfred, Knoch, Mallon, etc.) who dared to speak their conscience, stand up on behalf of the saints and the churches, and to be faithful to their Lord. All of these brothers suffered much for their faithfulness, yet neither Witness Lee nor his son ever repented for all the damage they did to leaders, churches, and the saints. The most I ever heard out of LSM was flippant comments like "mistakes were made, nobody's perfect, let him who is without sin cast the first sin, that's old news, time to move on, you need to forgive and forget, yada, yada."

Have you ever read the books of Samuel? That's not how the Lord treated David. Every man of God in scripture had to repent and take ownership of his failures.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

... instead of firing his pathetic son, Witness Lee fabricated conspiratorial lies about all of those brothers (like Ingalls, John So, Godfred, Knoch, Mallon, etc.) who dared to speak their conscience, stand up on behalf of the saints and the churches, and to be faithful to their Lord.

I believe there was also a "witness relocation program" in place for people who knew too much and/or got hurt too badly, aka the RCC. You simply "migrated" away from the epicenter of the storm. And then it was like it never happened, right?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

I believe there was also a "witness relocation program" in place for people who knew too much and/or got hurt too badly, aka the RCC. You simply "migrated" away from the epicenter of the storm. And then it was like it never happened, right?

No one has ever confirmed or denied, but this has been my feeling why the late James Barber relocated from Los Angeles to Oklahoma City (whenever that occurred).

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by LOL@donnali.com

BTW we are still meeting in the church - 43 years now, married 41 years, raised 3 beautiful and accomplished children. The Lord is richer today than when I was in my 20's. When I received the Lord I prayed, "Lord, always keep me in the center of what You are doing on this earth." I have asked many, many times to those that left that if they found something better to please let me know? No one, not even one has responded with anything better. I praise the Lord for His sovereignity in my life and for keeping me where I can be cherished and nourished to grow in life and to be build with others to love, manifest and express Him. Those are not just teachings and doctrines to me, but they are my life.

Donnali Peters

Donnali,

Thank you and bless you for taking the time to come and post on LocalChurchdiscussions.Com. I have quoted what I consider the most important part of your post. This forum was started and maintained for former AND CURRENT members to dialogue regarding the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church movement. Although not many current LC members have come and participated, I pray daily that more would come, register and participate in our discussions. The reason this forum seems so unbalanced - favoring the concerns, complaints and experiences of former members - is that so few current members have come here and taken advantage of this venue, the only such venue on the Internet exclusively designed and maintained for current and forum LC members.

Lord, always keep me in the center of what You are doing on this earth.

I prayed this prayer at 17 years old when I first "touched" the Local Church in Orange County CA about 40 years ago. I also prayed this same prayer, albeit in a state of abject fear and confusion, about 20 years ago when making the heart wrenching decision to leave the Local Church. As so many have lamented over the years, I actually felt that I had not left the Church, but the Church had left me. And since those heady days of personal confusion and consternation, I have continued my seeking of the Lord and have continued to to pray that he would always keep me in the center of what he is doing on this earth. And you know what? He has answered my prayer! Please stick around and I'd love to dialogue with you about this! Anyway, there are dozens upon dozens of testimonies from former members. There are a few current LC members who participate. We would be happy and honored if you would consider registering and participating as much as your time and interest allows. We welcome EVERYONE, current or former members, but we especially want and NEED current members...even if they only want to come and "straighten us out"!

Speaking of being straightened out....I do appreciate your testimony of your experience with the Daystar situation. You have given us some very fascinating and insightful information. I'm assuming that you read my post about the experience of the designer of the Daystar, W.E. Miller. In the article I posted, the listing price of the Daystar was around "$70,000" - and this is coming from someone in a position to know. I know you said you couldn't find the brochure, but do you have anything else you could point us to to verify the "42,000" figure you gave? Also, it has been well documented that Timothy Lee was heavily involved in, and profited from the Daystar business, and not Phillip Lee. Maybe you could give us some corrected/further insight into this part of the story?

When you have some time I would like to dialogue with your contention about Witness Lee not having any control over the actions of his adult sons. Well, it is for this very reason that he should not have put them in charge of any commercial business, much less at the helm of a Christian publishing company. Untold havoc and damage - financial AND MORE IMPORTANT, spiritual, was done over decades because of Lee's setting his son's loose (against the strong concerns of many brothers and sisters who were aware of the character of these men). I'm not asking you to answer for Witness Lee per se, but I am going to challenge your defense of the seemingly indefensible. I'm sure you have a different view.

Here's the post I made about that W.E. Miller on 8/13:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Artice from the website Coachbuilt.Com about longtime auto/truck/coach designer W.E. Miller

The following is an excerpt from this article and can be found towards the end of the article. Also there is a picture of a completed (maybe restored?) Daystar motorhome at the bottom right of the article.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"In 1972 he (W.E. Miller) gave up editing the Gazette and took a full-time position as chief engineer/designer with Daystar Motor Homes, Inc., 1414 West Artesia Blvd., Compton, California. The firm's $70,000 26ft luxury motor home was built on a Dodge 440 commercial truck chassis by a third party in Taiwan named Phosphorous, a Chinese-American firm [B]connected with Witness Lee's Southern Californian 'Local Church'.

Miller even travelled to Phosphorous' Kaohsiung, Taiwan (Republic of China) factory to make arrangements for the construction of the Cor-Ten steel body and teak interior.

Only 16 Daystars are known to have been constructed before the firm closed down in 1975, the victim of an alleged money-laundering scheme initiated by Phosphorous' directors Timothy Lee, Samuel Chang and K.H. Weigh."

----------------------------------------------

Thanks all for the responses to my post. The topic was Daystar and I worked there and I saw some posts asking about what Daystar was like. That post about sisters wearing bikinis to the fairgrounds for the presentation of Daystar was so off the wall, that I had to respond since I was there. I honestly don't know the inner workings of the Daystar business, nor the LSM business. I just worked in the office as a secretary. I know the church had no business in the motorhome business. Again, hindsight is 20/20. From what I understand it was Frank DeLuna and Timothy Lee that brought the idea to Bro. Lee. Brother Lee thought it was a good idea to make money for building meeting halls across the globe. Meetings halls would have been better served by the offering box for sure.

I would never claim to be an authority of anything, much less the inner workings of the accountings of either the business, LSM, or the church. I do know that when I put my offering in the box that I am giving my money to the Lord. The money goes out of my hand and into others. They have to stand before the Lord and give an account of that money, right? Do you honestly believe that we need to know where every penny goes? Once that money is out of my hands, I have no more control of it. And the Lord has continued to super abundantly bless me and take care of me. I do know that the church accounting books are open to all the saints at any time, at least in my locality.

Whether I am living in a bubble or a dream, the Lord knows. I enjoy Him daily in His Word, I am continually being constituted with Him. You want chapter and verse? I memorized the points and subpoints a long time ago ... lol I have experienced quite a lot these past 65 years. I don't want to live my life according to right and wrong. I want to live my life according to life and peace, don't you?

And I was there in that meeting when brother Lee asked forgiveness for Daystar. Anyone who says he didn't wasn't there. Again, you can ask specific dates of that meeting and I just can't remember, but I know what I know.

I am open for dialogue but I'm not a fighter and I hope whether you are in the LC or not that your life is being blessed by the Lord and that you continue to grow until maturity and are being built up where ever you are, so the Lord can gain what He needs at this time on the Earth.

Donnali

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Donnali,
Thank you and bless you for taking the time to come and post on LocalChurchdiscussions.Com. I have quoted what I consider the most important part of your post. This forum was started and maintained for former AND CURRENT members to dialogue regarding the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church movement. Although not many current LC members have come and participated, I pray daily that more would come, register and participate in our discussions. The reason this forum seems so unbalanced - favoring the concerns, complaints and experiences of former members - is that so few current members have come here and taken advantage of this venue, the only such venue on the Internet exclusively designed and maintained for current and forum LC members.

I can certainly understand why not many current LC members would not come an participate. The environment is not much different than a brother or sister being summoned to the "fellowship room" for a formal meeting with elders, deacons, co-workers. Who would want to subject themselves to a "hornet's nest" environment? Due to the imbalance of the forum, for every pro-LSM poster there may be 10 contrary-LSM posters offering a response. For all, the focus is on forming dialog.

In my opinion, had there been a venue in the local churches for liberty in genuine speaking without fear of repercussions, there would be no need of forums such as this.

[Lisbon]

The brother or sister at the top made a very good plea. I'm all for the point of forgiving the thieves who stole from us, lied, cheated, hid the truth etc. But this type of forgiveness really comes from the Lord. Just as our friends at the top are so loving, overlooking, sweet, altogether for the Lord's move, to whatever extent they are this way, it is either of the Lord or it is theatrical.

I have a RCC neighbor who is 100% for the institution. She is 78 or 79 years, a divorcee of around 35 years, hard worker, plenty of high marks to me as a real member of our society. I still don't believe one iota of her belief in the RCC.
The same is true of the writer at the top. If they are LSM employees, no dice. If they are just deceived, I was too for 40 years. Just turned 85 and realize that we have a devil far more competent than we so our survival is of the Lord. I hang on to the scripture, Except the Lord build the house, except the Lord keep the city, all is vanity.

Praise the Lord, I still have hope and it is entirely of the Lord, none in the LC or the RCC

Lisbon

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

The brother or sister at the top made a very good plea. I'm all for the point of forgiving the thieves who stole from us, lied, cheated, hid the truth etc. But this type of forgiveness really comes from the Lord. Just as our friends at the top are so loving, overlooking, sweet, altogether for the Lord's move, to whatever extent they are this way, it is either of the Lord or it is theatrical.

I have a RCC neighbor who is 100% for the institution. She is 78 or 79 years, a divorcee of around 35 years, hard worker, plenty of high marks to me as a real member of our society. I still don't believe one iota of her belief in the RCC.
The same is true of the writer at the top. If they are LSM employees, no dice. If they are just deceived, I was too for 40 years. Just turned 85 and realize that we have a devil far more competent than we so our survival is of the Lord. I hang on to the scripture, Except the Lord build the house, except the Lord keep the city, all is vanity.

Praise the Lord, I still have hope and it is entirely of the Lord, none in the LC or the RCC

Lisbon

Bro Lisbon, I look back fondly on my early days in the LC, when I was totally into the delusion ; "The vision" they called it ; when I believed I was smack dab in the middle of God's move on the earth.

But I can't unscramble those eggs. Now I see that the whole local church, and all Lee devised, were just theatrics, pretending to be God's move on the earth. I too was once a great pretender. Those were happy days.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by LOL@donnali.com

So, the question remains ... why? Like someone posted on here, the Lord wasn't interesting in making and selling motorhomes .. period! Hindsight is 20/20. You can concur and speculate all you want about this and that, but the Lord "blew" on it and it failed. Do you really believe that Bro. Lee had ulterior motives? I doubt it. I was in those meetings with Brother Lee and he or any of those brothers never "strongarmed" the sheep to hand over their money for this venture. There was a speaking of an "opportunity" to participate. I think what the saints didn't realize at the time that Daystar was a "business". Even though the majority of workers there were saints ... it wasn't the church. Every brother and sister made a choice to participate in that business. Brother Lee felt bad and repented that the saints lost money. He asked for forgiveness. So, many wouldn't take that repentance and have held on to their anger and resentment all these years. I can't believe this stuff is still floating around on the internet. The man passed in 1997 and he will stand before the Lord and give an account. But I believe the Lord has forgiven him, have you forgiven him?

I think one of the big concerns about Daystar (at least for me) was why bro. Lee involved the churches in the first place. If he wanted a business, fine, he could have secured bank loans or outside investors. Although he had every right to present it as an "investment opportunity" to whoever was interested, by every account, the funding was mostly (entirely?) through saints, and the workers were mostly saints. That was just asking for trouble to being with.

I know that these events happened 40 years ago. Maybe it's not worth discussing that much, but I think a common concern is just the fact that this little chapter in LC history has so much mystery surrounding it. If the information on the internet is wrong, why haven't any LC leaders come forth to attempt to clear things up? I don't think anyone here would be opposed to that. The closest we have to any official account of Daystar is Philip Lin's book Sacrifice and Sail On, where he briefly discusses Daystar. It raises and interesting question, if Daystar is "old news", then why did he bring it up? It seems he has the willingness to provide an alternative narrative, but not discuss things point by point.

I haven't read anything before today of bro. Lee ever publically repenting for Daystar, so that is news to me. Whether he did repent or not, I think the larger issue isn't anyone's unwillingness to forgive him, it's that Daystar was simply a bad decision. Lets face it, everyone had enough respect for Lee that they probably would have been willing to do almost whatever he suggested. Did bro. Lee take advantage of that willingness to put his business idea into motion? It seems to me that he should have stuck to his ministry, things would have worked out much better for everyone.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I know that these events happened 40 years ago..

Perhaps I'm a disaffected former member, airing my sour grapes over and over again; I lost the vision, or never had it, and now justify my inability to "take the Lord's way" by pooh-poohing it all. There's some justification for that, admittedly. And look how happy and fulfilled our current LC member remains, 40 years later, even after being intimately involved in Daystar. So why not let go, really?

Yet the same logic could be used against WL: that he was a disaffected, fallen-away Baptist who spent the rest of his life griping about "poor, poor Christianity" because he couldn't hack it in the first place. How come WL got to incessantly judge everyone and everything, but we're supposed to get over it and let go?

On that note, why does the Bible say that an elder must have believing children, when the apostle of the age had "unspiritual" (WL's own term) children as his deputies? Because like with judging others, the apostle of the age has different rules than everyone else? We cover Noah's drunkenness, but everyone else has to be sober like the Bible demands.

As mentioned here, the current LC member Donalli Peters, though full of happy and fulfilling memories, seems to mis-remember which reprobate son they were dealing with. Timothy was the Daystar boss, the drinker and smoker, and Philip was "the Office", one who pawed over the help at LSM HQ. Different children.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

Perhaps I'm a disaffected former member, airing my sour grapes over and over again; I lost the vision, or never had it, and now justify my inability to "take the Lord's way" by pooh-poohing it all. There's some justification for that, admittedly. And look how happy and fulfilled our current LC member remains, 40 years later, even after being intimately involved in Daystar. So why not let go, really?

Yet the same logic could be used against WL: that he was a disaffected, fallen-away Baptist who spent the rest of his life griping about "poor, poor Christianity" because he couldn't hack it in the first place. How come WL got to incessantly judge everyone and everything, but we're supposed to get over it and let go?

It's all to easy to develop a double standard about history. This is my concern about our sister's dismissal of the Daystar issue as "old history". Some things are worth forgetting, and for other events motto's such as "we will never forget" arise. By what standard do we evaluate LC history? Should we forget all the negative and only remember the positive? Obviously, that kind standard prevents learning anything from history. What if we were to forget both the negative and the positive? For example, since Lee has been gone almost 20 years, how about the local churches "forget the things behind" and move on to something besides his ministry. I'm sure they wouldn't like that suggestion. This is how the double standard develops. The dismissal of history becomes selective.

Admittedly, the negative events can be tricky, because no one is perfect, and all groups have blemishes here and there. My hesitation with dismissing the negative periods in LC history is because these things have always been presented as "closed matters", or as having been resolved when there is no indication that the situation was ever actually resolved to everyone's liking. For example, during the 2005 GLA "turmoil", I was told that the quarantine of Titus and others was needed to resolve that situation even though I had no clue who Titus or any of the others were. I was also told that to remain neutral was to be lukewarm. So here I was a young LCer with no idea what was going on, and I was being told by leaders what my position should be in regards to the situation. It hardly made any sense to me at all. It was confusing, and thankfully I eventually did the research to find out what really happened. When situations are handled in this way, they are anything but resolved, and thus I feel it is appropriate to discuss them for as long as necessary.

I believe it was Chris Wilde who told Steve Isitt that to address matters related to the 80's turmoil was to "reopen closed wounds". On the surface, it might sound like a reasonable stance. But one must move on to ask the question, was everything that happened during that time period ever fully resolved? If it is indeed resolved, could a LC member contact someone like John Ingalls without any negative recourse? As an example, a few years ago I heard the story about FTTA trainees who went door-knocking in the neighborhood around the training center. By chance, they happened to visit the home of a brother (who Terry told me was John Ingalls). Apparently, Ron was not happy about this visitation at all. Presumably he thought that whoever sent them out should have known where John lived. If Ron didn't want this situation to happen, it couldn't have been possibly prevented unless the trainees were made fully aware of "old matters". LC leaders don't want to address old history, but then when it comes up, they are not happy about what happens. They can't have things both ways.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I believe it was Chris Wilde who told Steve Isitt that to address matters related to the 80's turmoil was to "reopen closed wounds". On the surface, it might sound like a reasonable stance. But one must move on to ask the question, was everything that happened during that time period ever fully resolved? If it is indeed resolved, could a LC member contact someone like John Ingalls without any negative recourse?

If it is indeed resolved there's no need for internet forums or concern of reprisals for speaking the truth in love (even if it is contrary to LSM groupthink). Brothers who are currently out of favor would be received according to Romans 15:7.

Hello all,

First of all let me say how sorry I am that I am not a blogger. I've never blogged, so am not sure how to respond to just one's comment. When I replied initially on the front page I didn't see a link to "join". I only saw a reply.

I came here to talk about Daystar, and since I worked there and practically lived there for a year, there were some questions and statements about Daystar that I felt I could help you all to understand a few things.

As to the question about the Dodge 440 chassis and the weight of Daystar my husband told me last night and I will post here as a little tidbit for you all. My husband worked in the shipping/receiving and also in the assembly of the DayStar. He said this about the chassis, "No, a diesel pusher would have suited the weight better, but the dome allowed for the engine upfront to cool more efficiently."

Also, at the end of Daystar before it bellied up there were talks of converting the Daystar to be a mobile, first responder's type of vehicle. They were trying to attach "emergency police type" flashing lights on the dome area, and had plans drawn up to redesign the back end where a table could roll out for emergency surgeries. So, the DayStar was NOT a scam, but a bonafide company.

For more information about Daystar go to this link, and I think it would be very helpful to you all. Also at this link there is other useful information concerning the Harvest House suit, etc.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User...versies_merger

Thank you Terry for your post and see what happened? Ohio person took me into that "fellowship" room and preceded to berate me. Now I can see why current LC members won't come here to "fellowship" or dialogue anything of their positive experiences.

Again, I can only share from my experience. I don't share "he said, she said, coulda, shoulda, woulda". I only share from my first hand experience.

Ohio ... that John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Al Knock, Ken Unger, Godfred mess wasn't because of Philip Lee. It was because they wanted autonomy in the churches. They wanted to govern areas in the country and wanted "their" church to be autonomous, meaning feel free to introduce other teachings and literature into the meetings. Brother Lee gave a strong word about that, I was in that meeting also. You are so angry and bitter and your rancor continually spews forth your hatred of anything LC. I actually feel sorry for you. Build a bridge, and GET OVER IT!

And don't even get me going about my experience with Max Rappoport. I remember sitting in a circle when the young people went to San Diego and each one of us "had" to pray and he would confirm whether we were in the spirit or not. Disgusting. Did he even know his human spirit? He told us that his desire was that he would put Brother Lee in a room with a video cam on him all day so Brother Lee could give messages to his heart's content, while Max "ran" the recovery. I heard this with my own ears.

Again, I didn't come on here to fight, do battle with anyone. I was saved 1972 at Eldon Hall, married 1974 and we moved to Anaheim until 1978 when we moved to Costa Mesa. How come no one told us that it was a Max outpost? Yes, I was naive back then. I loved our time in Costa Mesa ... we were small, about 25 and grew to 50 in one year. Why we ever consolidated with Huntington Beach, I will never know. I loved the small gatherings where you can actually get to know each other and bear one another's burdens and pray together. Even today all those dear sisters in that short period of time, when we see each other it's like no time has passed. I got tired a long time ago of one brother sharing the message and then confirming that message with the same 16 that share every time. That doesn't "build" the church.

We moved in 1984 from HB to Houston. Has there been ups and downs in my life ... absolutely. But, now I am happy as a clam meeting from house to house,
nourishing and cherishing and letting the Lord do whatever He wants, to get His purpose and His Will.

I won't be posting anymore on this blog, it's wayyyyyy too toxic for this little sister to take. But I will leave you with my prayer. "O Lord, come in to all who read this. Shine your light and expose all that needs to be exposed. Lord, sweep in all our hearts that You may gain our whole being - spirit, soul and body. We want to share You, live You, manifest You and express You to all we come into contact with. Transform us until You do all the speaking through us. Amen."

Anyone on here that genuinely wants to fellowship their Christ with me, that we can nourish and cherish each other in Him, I am open for that kind of fellowship. My email is LOL@donnali.com

I refuse to bring out from under His blood what was cleansed and forgiven long ago. I hope you can all experience this too. The cross will deal with all that the natural man does. This ministry has enlightened and fed me for 43 years and I will continue as the Lord so leads.

Donnali

[UntoHim]

Donnali,

Thanks for coming by and contributing to our little forum. Actually this is not a "blog", although we do have a section which is entitled Blogosphere@LocalChurchDiscussions The distinction is rather important, which is why I have noted it here. You see, for better or for worse (I think for much worse) Local Chuchers are not used to dialoging with other Christians - even with other former LC members who are at least familiar with the specialized lingo. This is to the great detriment of the Movement as a whole, and more specifically to the individual members, I believe. You have decided to break the mold, if only for a quick moment, and I and others here appreciate this more than you can probably imagine, much less appreciate.

Finally, thank you for posting all the stuff about your Daystar experience. Believe it or not, your word is as good as anybody's around here....and that, of course includes me. However, as you have probably noticed, this doesn't mean everything anyone posts will receive a hardy "Amen!" after everything they say...quite the contrary as you have seen!

Thank you for posting your email address as I have already received some inquiries from brothers and/or sisters who would like to get in touch with you!

Your brother who is unto Him.

-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by LOL@donnali.com

Thank you Terry for your post and see what happened? Ohio person took me into that "fellowship" room and preceded to berate me. Now I can see why current LC members won't come here to "fellowship" or dialogue anything of their positive experiences.

Ohio ... that John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Al Knock, Ken Unger, Godfred mess wasn't because of Philip Lee. It was because they wanted autonomy in the churches. They wanted to govern areas in the country and wanted "their" church to be autonomous, meaning feel free to introduce other teachings and literature into the meetings. Brother Lee gave a strong word about that, I was in that meeting also. You are so angry and bitter and your rancor continually spews forth your hatred of anything LC. I actually feel sorry for you. Build a bridge, and GET OVER IT!

Sister Donnali, can I ask who is berating who?

I commented that your post displays naivety, since you have only taken Lee's side and have never considered what many other well-respected brothers have written. In all walks of life both sides of the story must be carefully weighed to ascertain the truth.

When I began to provide you with numerous historical facts, facts which you were apparently unaware of, you then berate me as "so angry and bitter and your rancor continually spews forth your hatred of anything LC. I actually feel sorry for you. Build a bridge, and GET OVER IT!"

Sister Donnali, sadly you have just displayed your true local church "colors." Is that all the grace and patience you have after 43 years in the Recovery? Apostle Paul has wisely admonished us, "in meekness correcting those who oppose." (2 Timothy 2.25) The Lord has also taught us, "If you only love those who love you, why should you get credit for that? Even sinners love those who love them!" (Luke 6.32)

I post on this forum not because I was hurt, but because many others have been hurt and deceived. Someone needs to speak on their behalf.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I post on this forum not because I was hurt, but because many others have been hurt and deceived. Someone needs to speak on their behalf.

Yet another reason why this forum exists. "And the hits just keep comin".

-

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Yet another reason why this forum exists. "And the hits just keep comin".

-

I wish our dear Sister Donnali could hang with us. I think she did an excellent job of sharing her experience of Daystar. It's nice to hear from those that were up close to it.

Cuz I wasn't so lucky. I was in the LC during Daystar. I didn't invest in it because I didn't trust it. But I was close to those that lost their life savings on it, and never got their money back.

All I knew about it was what Witness Lee passed down to the saints about it ; the official story.

So I've enjoyed learning more about it from those that were up close to it. And Sister Donnali is one of them. Her perspective is interesting.

And I'd like to hear more; from both her and her husband.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by awareness

I wish our dear Sister Donnali could hang with us. I think she did an excellent job of sharing her experience of Daystar. It's nice to hear from those that were up close to it.

So I've enjoyed learning more about it from those that were up close to it. And Sister Donnali is one of them. Her perspective is interesting.

And I'd like to hear more; from both her and her husband.

Agreed Awareness.

Previously, I had only heard of the perspective relayed by Don Hardy, Terry Risenhoover, and Max Rapaport's through Steve Isitt.

Somewhere between the varying perspectives, is the true account.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sister Donnali, can I ask who is berating who?

I commented that your post displays naivety, since you have only taken Lee's side and have never considered what many other well-respected brothers have written. In all walks of life both sides of the story must be carefully weighed to ascertain the truth.

When I began to provide you with numerous historical facts, facts which you were apparently unaware of, you then berate me as "so angry and bitter and your rancor continually spews forth your hatred of anything LC. I actually feel sorry for you. Build a bridge, and GET OVER IT!"

Sister Donnali, sadly you have just displayed your true local church "colors." Is that all the grace and patience you have after 43 years in the Recovery? Apostle Paul has wisely admonished us, "in meekness correcting those who oppose." (2 Timothy 2.25) The Lord has also taught us, "If you only love those who love you, why should you get credit for that? Even sinners love those who love them!" (Luke 6.32)

I post on this forum not because I was hurt, but because many others have been hurt and deceived. Someone needs to speak on their behalf.

What a meek and loving brother you are Ohio!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

What a meek and loving brother you are Ohio!

Thank you for all your kind words.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sister Donnali, sadly you have just displayed your true local church "colors." Is that all the grace and patience you have after 43 years in the Recovery? Apostle Paul has wisely admonished us, "in meekness correcting those who oppose." (2 Timothy 2.25) The Lord has also taught us, "If you only love those who love you, why should you get credit for that? Even sinners love those who love them!" (Luke 6.32)

I post on this forum not because I was hurt, but because many others have been hurt and deceived. Someone needs to speak on their behalf.

I agree with Nell that respect is paramount in communication. And Donnali Peters deserved respect, and even a double portion since she walked into the proverbial hornet's nest. But she didn't give much respect, either. She gave the usual LC veneer of respect, which disappeared as soon as she found out that you aren't "good building material", or are not "one" with (i.e. servile to) the Deputy God in Anaheim.

The attitude in her writing shows how dictatorships are maintained: they are formed by dictators and their lackeys, but they are maintained, or continually propped up, by the "don't make waves; just do as you are told; don't think or have an opinion" mantra of the masses. Look how easily you could slip in other names: "How dare you criticize and judge [Brother Lee/Chairman Mao/Comrade Stalin/Comrade Fidel] - he gave his all for the [Party/State/People/Church]!!" These people think that peace and order are maintained by brainless, abject servility to the "authority", even if it is clearly deficient or even wrong.

Whatever happened to "Administration local, each ans'ring to the Lord"?

http://www.witness-lee-hymns.org/hymns/H0824.html

That went out the window long, long ago. Instead we had to be "absolutely identical", probably less 'local' than a McDonald's franchise. Instead we had to answer to the Deputy God and his unbelieving chef. No wonder Ingalls and others wanted "autonomy", as Peters said. How about "freedom"? "For freedom Christ has set us free - stand fast, therefore, and do not be entangled again with the yoke of slavery" - remember that one? She also wrote that "The Lord blew on" the Daystar enterprise, and it collapsed. Why did the Lord blow on so many of Witness Lee's enterprises? Why all the storms, turmoils accompanying his ministry? How come he got a free pass, while everyone else got judged? Lee was even more frank, saying that Daystar was a cancer on the Recovery. See, e.g.

http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...opleChange.pdf

What kind of ministry seeds the Body of Christ with cancerous tumours? Are we being 'negative' only when asking these question? I think they are worth asking. Anyone who has read this forum knows that Ohio and I agree on basically nothing but Jesus Christ raised from the dead, but at least we both agree that people can talk, and hold opinions. Thank God we are in the US of A. I would rather hang out with Ohio, metaphorically speaking, than people that spew LC platitudes and drivel. Because Ohio, for all his shortcomings, and we all have them, gives me and my ideas more respect than any LC Deputy God ever has.

Look at the famous Acts 15 conference. Everybody got to speak. Who gets to speak in the LC? One man, Witness Lee, and now his Blended Curators. What kind of fellowship is that? The rest of us are reduced to bleating, "Yes sir, yes sir!!" with the only option how loudly you yell it. And like in North Korea, you can get "marked" as divisive and rebellious if you don't clap loudly enough when the Great Man speaks.

No thank you.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by LOL@donnali.com

Ohio ... that John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Al Knock, Ken Unger, Godfred mess wasn't because of Philip Lee. It was because they wanted autonomy in the churches. They wanted to govern areas in the country and wanted "their" church to be autonomous, meaning feel free to introduce other teachings and literature into the meetings. Brother Lee gave a strong word about that, I was in that meeting also. You are so angry and bitter and your rancor continually spews forth your hatred of anything LC. I actually feel sorry for you. Build a bridge, and GET OVER IT!

Donnali

Hi, Donnali. Here's an idea. Why don't you pray every day for a month that God enlighten you about the truth of that incident, and the truth of his desires about just how autonomous churches should be and how much we should listen to "apostles" like Witness Lee. Have you ever done that? If not, what is your basis for the principles around which you organize your life?

Here's what I think it is: Years ago you shut your mind to any other ideas. It's all you know and you are afraid at this point in your life to question or admit you might be believing things that are false. So you redouble your commitment to the only thing you know. Well, that's not the way to wisdom.

LCMers are the world's worst when it comes to honestly assessing their own failings and especially those of the movement to which they have unquestioningly devoted themselves. So you are not the person from whom others should take advice on how to deal with offenses.

Yes, we all need to "get over it," and I hope all do. But it's a lot easier to get over offenses when the offender admits wrongdoing. The LCM has never admitted any wrongdoing. Last time I checked the Bible, no one is exempt. So the fact is you are perpetuating the problem you are telling others to get over. I believe you will have to answer for that some day.

[awareness]

By the time Daystar came along, due to what I saw as hypocrisies from Witness Lee, of he and Nee's teachings, I no longer trusted Lee.

First, in Detroit with Ron Kangas, I saw, with my own eyes so to speak, Lee violate Nee's teachings on the autonomy of local churches. Then, in Ft. Lauderdale, I saw him orchestrate a violation of the one church one city doctrine.

And that's why I had zero trust in Lee when he was selling Daystar.

Fool me once, shame on you ... you know the rest.

I stayed in the church for Christ and the church. But I was pushed out over Witness Lee.

And I undeniably, afterward, suffered a bad case of PTCS (Post-Traumatic-Church-Syndrome) and maybe I'm not over it yet.

[Cal]

Also, Donnali, you should be a lot more concerned about the toxicity of your denial and willful ignorance than about any toxicity of "negativity" here.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by LOL@donnali.com

Ohio ... that John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Al Knock, Ken Unger, Godfred mess wasn't because of Philip Lee. It was because they wanted autonomy in the churches. They wanted to govern areas in the country and wanted "their" church to be autonomous, meaning feel free to introduce other teachings and literature into the meetings. Brother Lee gave a strong word about that, I was in that meeting also. You are so angry and bitter and your rancor continually spews forth your hatred of anything LC. I actually feel sorry for you. Build a bridge, and GET OVER IT!

There's no hatred only a longing for brothers who left the Local Churches to be treated with grace rather than pariahs. Rather I sense more hatred from elders and co-workers directed at elders & co-workers who left.
I strongly recommend reading Speaking the Truth in Love by John Ingalls to get his perspective of the late 80's turmoil.
Much of the sentiment that was directed at brothers like John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, etc occurred after they left the local church fellowship. Consider this, needing to quarantine John Ingalls after he already left, why?
Why the matter cannot be put to rest, Isaiah 5:20.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Terry

There's no hatred only a longing for brothers who left the Local Churches to be treated with grace rather than pariahs. Rather I sense more hatred from elders and co-workers directed at elders & co-workers who left.
I strongly recommend reading Speaking the Truth in Love by John Ingalls to get his perspective of the late 80's turmoil.
Much of the sentiment that was directed at brothers like John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, etc occurred after they left the local church fellowship. Consider this, needing to quarantine John Ingalls after he already left, why?
Why the matter cannot be put to rest, Isaiah 5:20.

Terry, I'm not pointing a finger at you alone, but if the goal is communication, if the goal is to be treated with grace rather than a pariah, first treat others the same way. I believe that's the "golden rule".

Donnali was hit in the face with a 2x4. You all disagree with some of her points. So do I. She had a perspective we had not heard. It's no wonder LC folks won't stick around. I've got my share of blows from a 2x4. There is a way to communicate with dignity and respect. It would be a great idea to work on finding it.

Nell

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Nell

There is a way to communicate with dignity and respect. It would be a great idea to work on finding it.
Nell

No THAT'S what I'm talkin about!

[Cal]

I agree with treating people with dignity and respect, but I don't see who did not do that.

Quite honestly, I don't think LCMers not remaining here has much to do with their not being treated with dignity and respect. I think the problem is they can't handle the truth. They have their version of "truth." When it is challenged they don't defend it with integrity, they run away claiming the challengers are toxic boogy men. We've seen it time and time again.

And so while I think people in general "deserve" respect, LCMers certainly don't work at earning it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I agree with treating people with dignity and respect, but I don't see who did not do that.

Quite honestly, I don't think LCMers not remaining here has much to do with their not being treated with dignity and respect. I think the problem is they can't handle the truth. They have their version of "truth." When it is challenged they don't defend it with integrity, they run away claiming the challengers are toxic boogy men. We've seen it time and time again.

And so while I think people in general "deserve" respect, LCMers certainly don't work at earning it.

It's nice when members like donnali drop in. It provides a peek into the window of their minds, revealing how they see things about the LC, and the 'facts' they think are true. And sis donnali represented that very well.

And Nell is right that it would be nice to treat them in such a way to keep them around and engaged. But I doubt it would be respectful if we just agree with them all the time. I don't think it's even possible, especially when we know their 'facts' aren't true at all ... like her views on Ingalls, et al.

Can we ignore that she's wrong just to keep her around? Is that what being respectful means? Do we even want them around if we have to pretend?

The thing is, donnali is obviously beginning to question the local church or she wouldn't be on the forum. I think she's at a very early stage of coming out.

So how can we help her with that? We're far far past that early stage of coming out. It's not easy figuring out what's the best approach to help her come out.

But chasing them off the forum is obviously not the right approach. What a dilemma it puts us in.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I agree with treating people with dignity and respect, but I don't see who did not do that.

Quite honestly, I don't think LCMers not remaining here has much to do with their not being treated with dignity and respect. I think the problem is they can't handle the truth. They have their version of "truth." When it is challenged they don't defend it with integrity, they run away claiming the challengers are toxic boogy men. We've seen it time and time again.

And so while I think people in general "deserve" respect, LCMers certainly don't work at earning it.

For communication to take place, the first thing that must be communicated is respect. In my humble opinion, you did not express respect for Donalli's point of view. You were agressive with her and seemed to be more interested in your point of view than hers. You've questioned her integrity. You left it to her to earn your respect while being unwilling to receive and welcome her as a newcomer to the forum.

It seems to me that your objective was not communication, but to start a fight. You've stated that you don't see it, Igzy, so I'm just trying to help you see from another perspective.

Unfortunately, this is the kind of stuff that makes their point...we're just a bunch of negative opposers...don't even mess with them.

Nell

PS: Women don't communicate the same as men.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by LOL@donnali.com

Also, at the end of Daystar before it bellied up there were talks of converting the Daystar to be a mobile, first responder's type of vehicle. They were trying to attach "emergency police type" flashing lights on the dome area, and had plans drawn up to redesign the back end where a table could roll out for emergency surgeries. So, the DayStar was NOT a scam, but a bonafide company.

I will concede that the intent was always to make money, and to do it well. But what you are missing is that the companies into which the various people invested did not actually exist in the US. They were not registered and did not file tax returns. They did not file bankruptcy because they couldn't since they didn't exist.

That may have been the presumption by the primary movers of the investment that it was not required. But it was required. Any investment solicited requires various kinds of legal filings. Some with the SEC. And to do that companies like Daystar would have to actually be incorporated somewhere and file tax returns. When the oil crisis happened and they could not sell the larger, more expensive vehicles they were making, they would have folded and filed for bankruptcy. But no such thing happened. They just told us that the company was gone and we lost our investment.

The charge was not that it was simply a scam. It was that it was structured in a manner that was illegal and was subject to legal and possibly criminal penalties for the way it was structured and sold. But it was just swept under the rug and it disappeared.

Originally Posted by LOL@donnali.com

Ohio ... that John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Al Knock, Ken Unger, Godfred mess wasn't because of Philip Lee. It was because they wanted autonomy in the churches. They wanted to govern areas in the country and wanted "their" church to be autonomous, meaning feel free to introduce other teachings and literature into the meetings. Brother Lee gave a strong word about that, I was in that meeting also. You are so angry and bitter and your rancor continually spews forth your hatred of anything LC. I actually feel sorry for you. Build a bridge, and GET OVER IT!

First, these did not have anything to do with Daystar.

But the information you have about what John, Bill, Al, Ken and Godfred wanted is quite wrong. Well . . . except for the autonomous part. Up until that time, the local assemblies had always been autonomous. They were not tied to the LSM or to Witness Lee except to the extent that they wanted to be. And they mostly wanted to be. But they did not want to be run by either. That was contrary to all the prior teaching that had been given.

Neither the illegal investment vehicle called Daystar nor the slander and libel that was spoken and put to writing concerning John Ingals et. al., have been covered under the blood. They remain as an open wound for the festering of the organization called the Local Churches. The people who were responsible for both and still live are at the top of the current hierarchy and have been proud to claim that they were righteous in what they did on these. That makes them worthy of scorn. Surely not worthy to lead any kind of Christian organization.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by OBW

But what you are missing is that the companies into which the various people invested did not actually exist in the US. They were not registered and did not file tax returns. They did not file bankruptcy because they couldn't since they didn't exist.

The charge was not that it was simply a scam. It was that it was structured in a manner that was illegal and was subject to legal and possibly criminal penalties for the way it was structured and sold. But it was just swept under the rug and it disappeared.

Neither the illegal investment vehicle called Daystar nor the slander and libel that was spoken and put to writing concerning John Ingals et. al., have been covered under the blood. They remain as an open wound for the festering of the organization called the Local Churches. The people who were responsible for both and still live are at the top of the current hierarchy and have been proud to claim that they were righteous in what they did on these. That makes them worthy of scorn. Surely not worthy to lead any kind of Christian organization.

Sister Donnali,
This post is not coming from some country pumpkin who doesn't know what he is talking about. OBW is a professional in an industry which affords him the ability to know what he is talking about, and knows the serious implications of "fooling with the books" and purposefully evading the payment of IRS mandated taxes. There is a big difference between "avoiding" (legal) and "evading" (illegal). It is painfully clear that Witness Lee engaged in the later. I can almost guaranty you that if Lee had engaged in this kind of financial malfeasance even 10-15 years later (much, much less nowadays), the Daystar fiasco would have had ended in a MUCH different way, and it would not have been pretty for the Lee family, or even for the Local Chuches in general.
-

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So even if a dear Local Churcher does come by with only a "hit and run" post or two, so be it. Most of us former members probably consider the Daystar saga to be a humongous log, yet Donnali Peters no doubt considers it to be a mere speck. So be it. If the truth is somewhere in the middle, then maybe God will lead us both in that direction, and if so, I hope that our little forum can be instrumental in making that happen.

Well said, thank you.

Donnali

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack! and I didn't bring my 4/4 either.

Again let me say this. I didn't come on this Forum because I am seeking a way out of the LC. Seriously? You think that? Sigh! I came onto this Forum because my husband and I were reminiscing about Daystar, and we both worked there in 1973 until 5/74. The second post on this Forum in 2008 went something like this, and I am paraphrasing). Maybe the color should have been the color of godmen socks (a pretty snarky comment). I should have caught on right there where the direction of the Forum was going. Silly me.

We can argue about right and wrong, good vs evil all day long. Is that from the "tree of life" or the "tree of knowledge of good evil"? Opinion upon opinion of what may or may not have happened. It's all in our perspective, right? There are 2 sides to every coin, right? And we will stand upon that "opinion" until our last breath. Even if someone could prove us wrong ... so what? But, how is your enjoyment of Christ?

I am old, I am not going to fight with you. If you came across a book that speaks negatively about the Apostle Paul and I am sure there has to be one out there, would you then cut out the Epistles written by Paul? Would you no longer accept the Lord's speaking through Paul? How would your experience of Christ be today w/o the Apostle Paul's writings? The saints could not afford to take care of Paul financially. Didn't Paul then make tents? Such a brother in a worldly company making tents? Gasp!

Brother Lee said many times if the work and ministry was of himself, then it must fail. I agree!

I really enjoyed this little quote today.

Satan says: Look at sin.
God says: Look at my Son

Your sister in Christ,

Donnali

[UntoHim]

Hi Donnali,

Thanks for considering sticking around. It would be much easier on both of us if you could register for the forum. That way your posts would appear instantly without having to go through the moderation que. I can set you up under the UserName "Donnali" (I'm sure that one's available!) I can then send you temporary password which you can change to something only you will know.

Thanks,
UntoHim

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hi Donnali,

Thanks for considering sticking around. It would be much easier on both of us if you could register for the forum. That way your posts would appear instantly without having to go through the moderation que. I can set you up under the UserName "Donnali" (I'm sure that one's available!) I can then send you temporary password which you can change to something only you will know.

Thanks,
UntoHim

But sis Donnali you've made it clear that you don't want to fight with anyone. I understand. I don't want to fight either.

Truth is I was much further from Daystar than you. I only got 2nd, 3rd, 4th, hand info about Daystar ... if not more hands away than I can count. So I've only got opinions about it, to figure out what really happened.

It's not uncommon in any corporation for employees to not know the financial and/or legal goings-ons at the top of the corp.

So of course we are only going to get different opinions from those that actually worked at Daystar. The ones I want to hear from are the ones that managed the money.

And so far, the ones that I know of, that knew about the money, are Don Hardy, and the brother that goes by Elden1971 on this forum. They saw the books, and managed them. Max R. would know too, but you indicated you don't trust him at all.

Theirs too are just opinions, to me. But Hardy and Elden1971 carry the most weight.

So sis, even if you don't want to argue about it, are you open to the truth about it, or seeking the truth about it, enough to entertain opinions of those that knew what was going on at he top with the finances of Daystar?

That could likely be arranged. Maybe not here, on the open forum -- they don't want lawsuits, even of the frivolous sort, by DCP -- but maybe privately.

In any case, it's nice to hear from you out here.

To know how much you are appreciated on the forum I should point out that you have been treated as more privileged than us members of the forum. Tho I'm willing to give my email address out on the forum -- I'd love Ron Kangas to email me, even if to tell me off, fat chance as it is -- as far as I know, it will be deleted by Untohim if I put it here.

But if you are interested just let me know and I'll email you. Then you'll have my email address, and we can go from there.

If not, still, and even more, blessings to you and yours.

[Donnali]

But if you are interested just let me know and I'll email you. Then you'll have my email address, and we can go from there.

Yes, please do and you have my email from previous posts.

Sincerely,

Donnali

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by LOL@donnali.com

We can argue about right and wrong, good vs evil all day long. Is that from the "tree of life" or the "tree of knowledge of good evil"? Opinion upon opinion of what may or may not have happened. It's all in our perspective, right? There are 2 sides to every coin, right? And we will stand upon that "opinion" until our last breath. Even if someone could prove us wrong ... so what? But, how is your enjoyment of Christ?

I think part of the frustration many feel here from the Day Star debacle is the apparent lack of transparency. If no crime was committed, why was there a need for so much secrecy and an urgency to sweep everything under the rug?

The apostle John writes in 1 John 3:20-21:

"Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

Witness Lee, in his own words, described how the finances behind DayStar were structured in a way to protect himself from potential losses in his conversation with Sal Benoit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWHJC7E83hU

During their phone conversation, it seems that Lee only decides to hand Sal a bone once he realizes Mr. Benoit is quite upset and could possibly take drastic measures and cause a controversy.

Why couldn't Witness Lee be transparent about such details to the rest of the saints who risked their life savings? Why did Witness Lee spend so much energy devising such an elaborate scheme?

I am old, I am not going to fight with you. If you came across a book that speaks negatively about the Apostle Paul and I am sure there has to be one out there, would you then cut out the Epistles written by Paul? Would you no longer accept the Lord's speaking through Paul? How would your experience of Christ be today w/o the Apostle Paul's writings? The saints could not afford to take care of Paul financially. Didn't Paul then make tents? Such a brother in a worldly company making tents? Gasp!

Brother Lee said many times if the work and ministry was of himself, then it must fail. I agree!

I really enjoyed this little quote today.

Satan says: Look at sin.
God says: Look at my Son

Teachers are held to a higher standard of judgment in the New Testament (James 3:1), and we are actually called in many cases to hold them accountable and to expose any evil deeds that are attempted to be hidden.

Ephesians 5:11-12
"Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret."

1 Timothy 5:12
But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.

We're also instructed to watch out for false prophets, precisely because they are so deceptive:

Matthew 7:15
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."

And Jesus instructs that one of the ways to do so is by inspecting the kind of fruit that they bear (Matt 7:16).

The way I currently look at it (and I'm open to feedback or other biblically based perspectives on this), many brothers and sisters in the Local Church movement today have entrusted and staked their lives to the thought that Witness Lee was the oracle of God and the minister of the age. But had they known the facts and true fruit borne by this ministry, I think many would wisely realign themselves away from LSM to healthier Christ-centered Christian ministries that don't encourage unhealthy devotion to mortal and fallen men such as Lee.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by bearbear

...The way I currently look at it (and I'm open to feedback or other biblically based perspectives on this), many brothers and sisters in the Local Church movement today have entrusted and staked their lives to the thought that Witness Lee was the oracle of God and the minister of the age. But had they known the facts and true fruit borne by this ministry, I think many would wisely realign themselves away from LSM to healthier Christ-centered Christian ministries that don't encourage unhealthy devotion to mortal and fallen men such as Lee.

On the other hand, if I were truly the "oracle of God", I would obey the laws of the land. I would have known better than to try to make money off the flock I was "sent?" to shepherd. If I were truly the "oracle of God", when my business tanked, my life's work would have been to pay back every dime I took from the saints---with interest, and not make someone else pay for my mistakes. I wouldn't ask the saints to sign away the committment I had made to them, I would instead ask for some time to make things right. I wouldn't take one dime in profit from any source, such as my publishing company, until I had paid back the debt I owed---no matter how long it took. Of course, this isn't the way the business world works, but we're not talking about secular business.

I wouldn't ask the saints to forgive me when I, in fact, forgive NOTHING.

It's possible (likely?) that the Daystar debaucle is still on Lee's heavenly ledger as surely as a millstone around the neck.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Donalli

But, how is your enjoyment of Christ?

Actually, not bad. I don't feel bad in my conscience anymore about being told "don't waste your time" on the poor, the sick, the weak, the needy, the hungry and the other "bad building material". So that is nice. If I want to waste my time on those who can't repay me in this age, a la Jesus' encouragement, I now have the freedom to do so.

Also I like figuring out puzzles and when I realized that Watchman Nee found the way to separate the Chinese christians from the "Barbarians" and "foreign devils" of the West, via the Exlusive Bretheren "local ground" teachings, that the Chinese indigenous little flock was born, then I was happy. Because I like to understand and finally I felt that I had a good explanation for why "God raised up Watchman Nee".

And a few other things besides. Like seeing Jesus, where I used to see "God's economy" or some such. Much preferable.

I could prattle on, but I am grateful for the journey. 'Nuff said.

[Lisbon]

Sis Donnali,

Your statement about Bro Lee's apology is quite refreshing to me although over 40 years late. This illustrates my chief unhappiness with the LC. You see I heard of Lee's statement of 'the saints having lost their virginity' which is quite an insult. I wonder why those in the lead, mainly Benson and Hope(Don R), didn't tell us of his apology. I suppose it would have been demeaning. Could Bro Lee been human? You surely can imagine how sarcasm comes in when there is such silence. I would never expected a personal apology but one to the Church in Dallas would not be inappropriate.

Your comment on Max is well taken for my 13 year old sensed a problem there.

A free pass to all those in the lead for these many years is not appropriate considering they crucified Ingals, Mallon, So, Freeman, Hardy, Knoch, and of course Chu. Hiding behind keeping the oneness is a joke, a sad joke.

Lisbon

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Your comment on Max is well taken for my 13 year old sensed a problem there.

Max was easy to spot. His swelled head and being full of himself stuck out like a sore thumb. What Lee saw in him I never got. He must have thought some good would come from shaking it all apart. Max left plenty of carnage in his wake.

But I saw a video of him preaching these days not long ago (I think bearbear dropped a like on it, if I'm not mistaken) and he doesn't come off that way now that he's no longer the big shot. Maybe he's learned some lessons. Still with Sandy, and preachin' Jesus and the Bible.

[Donnali]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Sis Donnali,

Your statement about Bro Lee's apology is quite refreshing to me although over 40 years late. This illustrates my chief unhappiness with the LC. You see I heard of Lee's statement of 'the saints having lost their virginity' which is quite an insult. I wonder why those in the lead, mainly Benson and Hope(Don R), didn't tell us of his apology. I suppose it would have been demeaning. Could Bro Lee been human? You surely can imagine how sarcasm comes in when there is such silence. I would never expected a personal apology but one to the Church in Dallas would not be inappropriate.

Your comment on Max is well taken for my 13 year old sensed a problem there.

A free pass to all those in the lead for these many years is not appropriate considering they crucified Ingals, Mallon, So, Freeman, Hardy, Knoch, and of course Chu. Hiding behind keeping the oneness is a joke, a sad joke.

Lisbon

I agree Lisbon. Then should I give a free pass to Max R for all the havoc he wrecked upon the saints, including me? He has never apologized to me. Do you understand the correlation? There is only a tinge of resentment in my being toward Max R and as much as I can "let the Lord" heal me in that area ... well, it takes time, right?

Let me leave you with this thought ... The Almightly God desired and chose sinful but cleansed (through the blood of His son) man to dispense His life into. Not just to dispense, but that we all enter into this long period of transformation until we not only have the image of God outwardly, but also inwardly. It takes a life time.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Donnali

I agree Lisbon. Then should I give a free pass to Max R for all the havoc he wrecked upon the saints, including me? He has never apologized to me. Do you understand the correlation? There is only a tinge of resentment in my being toward Max R and as much as I can "let the Lord" heal me in that area ... well, it takes time, right?

The difference is none of us are following Max Rappaport or considering him an apostle. I'm not going to follow any teacher who isn't humble enough to admit some of his mistakes and especially who won't apologize for injuring people. Witness Lee and his inner circle (which is still in power) have never admitted wrongdoing for anything. I have zero respect for that. It's pride and hubris, plain and simple.

Do you have children Donnali? Did you never apologize to them when you were wrong? Did you think your status and authority depended on never admitting you were wrong? In my experience apologizing to your children is one of the best things you can do for your relationship with them

Lee never did that. And his heirs to power never have either. As far as I'm concerned they are abusive parents. And they get no respect from me for it. I wouldn't follow that kind of person to the 7-11, let alone any place important.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I'm not going to follow any teacher who isn't humble enough to admit some of his mistakes and especially who won't apologize for injuring people.

The community church in Renton my family and I have been meeting with for roughly 5 years, it's the humility from the pastor that contributes to an attractive atmosphere to meet in.

[Donnali]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The difference is none of us are following Max Rappaport or considering him an apostle. I'm not going to follow any teacher who isn't humble enough to admit some of his mistakes and especially who won't apologize for injuring people. Witness Lee and his inner circle (which is still in power) have never admitted wrongdoing for anything. I have zero respect for that. It's pride and hubris, plain and simple.

Do you have children Donnali? Did you never apologize to them when you were wrong? Did you think your status and authority depended on never admitting you were wrong? In my experience apologizing to your children is one of the best things you can do for your relationship with them

Lee never did that. And his heirs to power never have either. As far as I'm concerned they are abusive parents. And they get no respect from me for it. I wouldn't follow that kind of person to the 7-11, let alone any place important.

--------------------------------------

Of course, I have apologized to my children, not so much when they were little but after they were grown, and I have a very good relationship with my grown children.

So, here's to stirring up the hornet's nest again. The title "apostle" and "oracle of God" have been bandied about on here. In all the years, in all the meetings, in all the readings of Brother Lee's books I don't recall one sentence where he said, "I am THE oracle of God or I am an apostle." I might be wrong but I don't recall him every saying that. I remember him saying he was a small "potato" like the rest of us.

So, how far up do your put any man, preacher on a pedestal? How far up do they have to be before they crash and burn?

If I have a problem with a brother or a sister and I go to them with my offense, their reaction will depend on how I approach them, right? If I come all haughty and demand a repentance I am pretty sure I would still be waiting for it. But, if I come with a pure heart, wanting the offense to be cleared up I would pray very much before ever approaching that brother and sister. So, they don't apoligize? Then I can bring it to two others to resolve and if that doesn't help, then to the church.

I have learned a secret in this last 15 years. Sorry, I had to cut and paste this to a response to another Forum member recently.

2 Cor. 2:10 “But whom you forgive anything, I also forgive; for also what I have forgiven, if I have forgive anything, it is for your sake in the person of Christ.” I have been deeply hurt by my family, the saints, people I have worked for, most especially by my husband. Even when he apologized I couldn’t let go of the hurt. The wall between us was pretty high and thick. I realized that if I took those hurt feelings to the end of the line in my thinking, that eventually I would be divorced, regardless what the Bible said. So, at one point I stood on this last verse and even told him that I forgave him “in the person of Christ”. I said that completely by faith and I stood on that verse. And everytime the Satanic thoughts came, “well, what about this and what about that”. I repeated that verse to Satan. It was a struggle, but gradually that hurt inside of me began to dissipate until today it is completely gone. They are many dear ones that have offended me w/o apology. Do I hold on to the offense until the judgment seat of Christ? When I turn my heart to the Lord and begin to pray to contact the Lord in my spirit I ask forgiveness if I have offended Him and ask Him to shine on me to expose anything in my being, even a wrongful “tone” in my speaking to others. We are all in this process of transformation. I want to continually keep my account before the Lord clear, don't you?

Your sister in Christ,

Donnali



p.s. If I had had a personal offense with either Brother Lee or his family, or any leading brother I would have gone to that one in person.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Donnali

--------------------------------------
So, here's to stirring up the hornet's nest again. The title "apostle" and "oracle of God" have been bandied about on here. In all the years, in all the meetings, in all the readings of Brother Lee's books I don't recall one sentence where he said, "I am THE oracle of God or I am an apostle."

Buzz, buzz, sting, sting ...

I've told this story so many times I should make a templet of it, to cut and paste.

Here's the short version:

The lead elder in the Church in Ft. Lauderdale, Mel Porter, came back from an elders meeting in Anaheim, with bro Lee, with a "New Flow." This is circa 1978.

The flow was called "The Flow of Oneness." Two books of the Bible were used as the sales pitch for it.

1) From Revelation: From the throne of God and the Lamb flows the river of the water of life, with the trees of Life on either side, carrying the authority of Christ from the throne, flowing to "the apostle on the earth": Witness Lee.

2) From Psalms 133: Where the oil runs down Aaron's head to the skirts of his garments. Lee was depicted as Aaron, the oil was depicted as The Holy Spirit, and we 'small potatoes' were the skirts. Lee was top dog, so to speak.

I don't know why, or didn't back then anyway, but my spirit regurgitated when I first heard The Flow of Oneness. I was not going to accept that Lee was The Apostle on the Earth. "But he's obviously the oracle of God," I was told.

So in the meetings, whenever someone stood and testified of The Flow of Oneness I would stand and speak of the Oneness in the Spirit, and the Oneness in Christ. Many would say, "Amen!"

But eventually Mel Porter caught on that I meant, "Oneness in Christ," as opposed to, "Oneness by following Witness Lee."

Time went on and I was openly opposed and outspoken to Lee being The Apostle. Mel sent his cronies to me, to set me straight. My position was that, Christ was my head, so I had to be true to my spirit first and foremost. And if Lee did that then we were one. But if I did it and Lee didn't we were not one. "Lee is always following his spirit," I was told, so I should follow him. Additionally I was told that we shouldn't say anything unless it either repeats or reinforces what the elders say.

Lot's of details are skipped here. But eventually one Sunday night meeting a brother stood and accused me of poisoning a couple my wife and I had lunch with that day, against Witness Lee. Mel Porter stood and said that there were brothers in the church using Witness Lee's works to destroy Witness Lee's works. My eyes went crossed. I couldn't add that up. But yes, I was using Witness Lee's writings to support following Christ in our spirit, to counter following Lee as the apostle.

Porter pumped his fist in the air and shouted, "If you're not with us, then get out!!" The meeting exploded. Everyone was pumping and shouting, "If you're not with us get out ... get out ... get out!!!" It was insanity. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Suddenly the church looked like a cult to me.

Porter then said, "These's brothers know who they are, and they have a week to repent in front of the church or, they will be excommunicated."

I've got to share this detail. It's way toooo absurd to skip. A week goes by, and I hadn't repented (In my conscience I had nothing to repent of). So before the Sunday night meeting the elders show up at my door. They sent my wife out and Mel grabbed a chair and sat directly facing me. He said that there were two churches in Ft. Lauderdale, and that he was the leader of one, and I was the leader of the other one. I denied that I was leading anyone, but he didn't buy it.

He said, something along the line of, "we are following Witness Lee, and I am the elder of the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, and if you want to go on in the LC you have to -- and I quote verbatim -- "Take my personality as your personality," and, "if you want to blow your nose you have to ask me which side first."

I countered with, "this sounds like the Roman Catholic church to me. With Lee as the Pope." Mel shot back with, "this is the way of life, and you either do it or get out."

I got out. And it was all because I couldn't accept that Lee was the apostle and oracle on the earth.

So sis Donnali, I certainly heard it said, many times, that Lee was the apostle and oracle on the earth today.

And that's why I'm here today, to tell this story to anyone still in the local church, or thinking of joining it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I got out. And it was all because I couldn't accept that Lee was the apostle and oracle on the earth.

So sis Donnali, I certainly heard it said, many times, that Lee was the apostle and oracle on the earth today.

And that's why I'm here today, to tell this story to anyone still in the local church, or thinking of joining it.

If Witness Lee himself actually said this in public or implied it, then his editors sanitized the written messages.

It was Lee's most ardent followers who heaped upon him lavish praise and spread all of these gross superlatives to the LC's.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

He said, something along the line of, "we are following Witness Lee, and I am the elder of the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, and if you want to go on in the LC you have to -- and I quote verbatim -- "Take my personality as your personality," and, "if you want to blow your nose you have to ask me which side first."

I countered with, "this sounds like the Roman Catholic church to me. With Lee as the Pope." Mel shot back with, "this is the way of life, and you either do it or get out."

"This is the way of life", according to one of Lee's ardent followers. Lee didn't have to anoint himself Grand Pooh-Bah of Planet Earth. He had MP, RG, EM, BP, and many others to do it. The same people who are, not coincidentally, running the show.

Originally Posted by Ohio

It was Lee's most ardent followers who heaped upon him lavish praise and spread all of these gross superlatives to the LC's.

Anyone who didn't "line up" with the ardent followers either got quietly exiled to LC Siberia, or got out.

People like MP and RG were great because they didn't pull any punches. They told you what it was, and you either get it or get out. They weren't like, "Awww, he is just a humble bondslave of Jesus Christ. A simple Bible expositor." No, they said, He's Deputy God. Number Four, after the Trinity.

[Lisbon]

Originally Posted by Donnali

I agree Lisbon. Then should I give a free pass to Max R for all the havoc he wrecked upon the saints, including me? He has never apologized to me. Do you understand the correlation? There is only a tinge of resentment in my being toward Max R and as much as I can "let the Lord" heal me in that area ... well, it takes time, right?

Let me leave you with this thought ... The Almightly God desired and chose sinful but cleansed (through the blood of His son) man to dispense His life into. Not just to dispense, but that we all enter into this long period of transformation until we not only have the image of God outwardly, but also inwardly. It takes a life time.

There is a distinct difference between the outcome of Max and Lee. Max got crucified which I suppose was appropriate, but Lee was made an idol, potentate, whatever. You suggest they were treated similarly. I saw well prepared video on Max but never a word of Lee until I came to this forum. Much dark talk about Rosemede, John Ingals, Bill Freeman, Moses Lake, etc, nothing negative about Bro Lee. Of course Texas was the bastion of BP and RG.

Lisbon

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

There is a distinct difference between the outcome of Max and Lee. Max got crucified which I suppose was appropriate, but Lee was made an idol, potentate, whatever. You suggest they were treated similarly. I saw well prepared video on Max but never a word of Lee until I came to this forum. Much dark talk about Rosemede, John Ingals, Bill Freeman, Moses Lake, etc, nothing negative about Bro Lee. Of course Texas was the bastion of BP and RG.

Lisbon

Max did many rotten things to undermine the saints' respect for their local leaderships, sowing discord everywhere, some of whiich I witnessed first hand, but Lee never did confess that Max was merely working and traveling entirely at his behest.

I'm not justifying any of Max's many failures here, but all those who participated in his "Young Galileans move of the Lord," knew that they were ultimately following Lee, and not Max.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Max did many rotten things to undermine the saints' respect for their local leaderships, sowing discord everywhere, some of whiich I witnessed first hand, but Lee never did confess that Max was merely working and traveling entirely at his behest.

I'm not justifying any of Max's many failures here, but all those who participated in his "Young Galileans move of the Lord," knew that they were ultimately following Lee, and not Max.

Max was a sociopath. Lee spotted it and used it. Lee was a sociopath. His lecherous son Philip was much worse. And Timothy Lee was somewhere in the middle. He got Daystar rich, but didn't show it. Witness knew all about it. And did nothing to Max, Philip, or Timothy ... until the damage was done ... if then.

Lee showed his sociopathic traits by attacking all of Christianity. We see this in this quote:

1) "Judaism is Satanic, Catholicism is demonic, and Protestantism is without Christ."- Witness Lee, The Stream Magazine, vol. 14, no. 4 (LSM, Nov 1976) p.

2) And his sociopathy pops out into the open when he was asked about those that lost their money on Daystar. I close with this eye-popping quote:

Testimony of Treasurer - Don Hardy email

"It “started” with DayStar. WL gave the appearance that “everything was o.k.”, that what he wanted to do was “ALL” for the “Lord”; but, underneath (this is a fact, and past history), there were the children to care for, especially Timothy.

I had heard that in the FarEast, WL had tried to do this “business venture thing” at least 2-3 other times. (My mother-in-law did some “research” with missionaries from the Far East, and found out). I BLAME the dear dear Chinese saints in Elden, who were from the FE, because they KNEW better (they knew brother!!), and they not only “not touched it”, they kept QUIET with any of us saints from America about those business ventures, and let us ALL go ahead and “walk down the primrose path!!”

I believe I told you about the Elders’ Mtng later (about 8-10 mos?) after Daystar (WL had already moved to Orange Co., and we had already built the mtng hall, so I may have my timing off): It was a LARGE Mtng (bros. had flown in), and WL was sitting up-front in “the captain’s chair”. John Smith of San Diego, asked him something like this: “WHAT happened with Daystar, WL? Soooo many saints are still suffering. Somehow we have to pay them$$ back” WL’s answer: something like this (I’ll “never” forget): “They have lost their virginity”.

Dick Taylor was very perplexed, and asked: ”Why, WL, what on earth do you mean?!!” “Well bros. when the saints first came into Elden Hall, in the “early days” they were all somewhat pure virgins, WHOLLY for the LORD, seeking the Lord, wanting only the Lord. But over Daystar, so many LOST their virginity, they lost their first love. (They got mixed). Dick (or someone else) said, HOW did that happen WL? WL said, they were (all) SEDUCED, they lost their virginity!” And there were MANY brothers there, but NOT one asked, “WHO did the seducing, WL?” I did not ask publicly, but I asked (and was answered) within me! "Why, the "little precious man" sitting right in front of us, IS THE MAN who seduced us all!!"

-- Emphasis mine --

[Nell]

This is a link to a discussion on an old forum about "Max Rapoport's so-called rebellion" which might give you further insight on Max and attempts to determine exactly WHO Max rebelled against.

http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/sho...t=35391&page=4

LA Times article
https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...7,820767&hl=en

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

A free pass to all those in the lead for these many years is not appropriate considering they crucified Ingals, Mallon, So, Freeman, Hardy, Knoch, and of course Chu. Hiding behind keeping the oneness is a joke, a sad joke.

Perhaps why blended co-workers take exception when a brother brings up the past.
Though crucified as you say, many of these brothers or at least the ones I met in person are very forgiving. Much in the context of Mark 11:25

Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.

Questions to be answered is, will future behavior of crucifying other brothers still worthy of a free pass (aka looking the other way)?