*Lurkers Only*: Now's Your Chance

[Cal]

I recently came up with the idea of Lurkers Only threads. These threads may only be posted to by people who have never posted or rarely post. (Rarely is a relative term so if you think you rarely post, you probably do.)

Some of us (who shall remain nameless) are quite bloviating. We are like the people in the LC who testified in every meeting. You know, that brother who made you think, "Why doesn't he just give it a rest?" I think WL called them "monkeys." We monkeys think we are smart and like the sound of our own voices. We talk too much sometimes and we probably intimidate not a few of our newer members.

Lurkers Only threads are not open to monkeys, except to post something like "Welcome to the board, so-and-so!"

So anyway, whether you are signed up or just a guest, we'd like to hear from you. Tell us you story. Make a comment about the board or anything you'd like. Or just say hi. The monkeys need a rest.

[UntoHim]

Never mind us monkeys....just post away!
Oh, by the way, in case you're wondering, I'm the cute little chimp on the far right.

A typical day at his zoo
monkey see monkey do
Zookeeper Lee happily
kept you in cages
fed you bananas

Now that you are 'free'
do not let this forum
a cage be
As we all cry
Nee, who he?

[Guest M]

Originally Posted by Unregistered monkey

A typical day at his zoo
monkey see monkey do
Zookeeper Lee happily
kept you in cages
fed you bananas

Now that you are 'free'
do not let this forum
a cage be
As we all cry
Nee, who he?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! "Nee, who he?" Thanks for this.

It has been almost 30 years since I left the local church. Rarely does a day go by that I do not have feelings of angst about the matter. Not that I feel a bit of regret that I decided one day to just leave, but I felt so betrayed. I had put so much of my heart and soul into that movement, all in the name of Jesus. I was close to so many, and yet when I left, I was absolutely abandoned. Well, I did get a few knocks on the door trying to get me to start coming to meetings again, but that was not what I needed. I needed to know that the human relationships were real and could exist to some extent outside the context of the lc. But I was wrong. I have been unable to even speak about this matter until now. Thank you for this forum. I could go on and on, but I will stop. May God have mercy on us all.

[Cal]

Thanks for the poem, and thanks for telling us your story. We hope this board is a benefit to all who have been hurt by their experience the LC, or for that matter any spiritually abusive group.

Keep posting, lurkers! You have a voice here.

Non-monkey lurker here. Again, thanks for the forum. I just wish more "lurkers" would share. I need to hear their stories and I'm sure others do to.

I want to stress that I do not regret my lc experience in OHIO and hold no animosity toward the group or any individuals. In addition, many memories are positive and I don't have a lot of problems with their beliefs and practices. IMHO, they are mostly sincere believers who have their "way," as much as I found that way to be intolerable.

As I read the posts here, I must admit that the fine doctrinal points can be confusing (e.g., Triune God - who can ever really understand that!, but it's great that people are free to express themselves here and the different points of view are enlightening. I never felt freedom to express myself during my 5 years in the lc (seems to have been SO much longer!). I still recall what I call the "Brother Comma" syndrome. You know, "Brother, yadda yadda." Usually, "you're in your mind" or "you need to turn to your spirit," or some such ice water. So I just went along with the "flow," so to speak, to avoid confrontation. That got old and when I decided I couldn't take that or the controlling lifestyle, I decided I had to walk away.

Peace to all and a great sunny weekend!!! ... "non monkey" lurker

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I just wish more "lurkers" would share. I need to hear their stories and I'm sure others do to.

Dear unregistered, if you want to hear some stories of brands plucked from the burning, go to the Bereans Apologetics Research Ministry website, and from there to the Old Forums section, and on the Nee, Lee & Church of Recovery forum, you can read the "Introductions and testimonies" thread. There are about 40 pages of stories.

Oh my! Thank you, Aron. Will definitely check it out. I guess I'm far from alone in this. Question for you, if you know. Is Titus Chu still "quarantined." I suspect he is and that the so-called BBs are still calling the shots at LSM. From my recollection, Titus always heard a different drummer and was not afraid to act accordingly. I guess I should use the abbreviation TC, huh? lol

Still loving the Lord Jesus Christ!!!...unregistered

Originally Posted by aron

Dear unregistered, if you want to hear some stories of brands plucked from the burning, go to the Bereans Apologetics Research Ministry website, and from there to the Old Forums section, and on the Nee, Lee & Church of Recovery forum, you can read the "Introductions and testimonies" thread. There are about 40 pages of stories.

a link would help

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Non-monkey lurker here. Again, thanks for the forum. I just wish more "lurkers" would share. I need to hear their stories and I'm sure others do to.

I want to stress that I do not regret my lc experience in OHIO and hold no animosity toward the group or any individuals. In addition, many memories are positive and I don't have a lot of problems with their beliefs and practices. IMHO, they are mostly sincere believers who have their "way," as much as I found that way to be intolerable.

As I read the posts here, I must admit that the fine doctrinal points can be confusing (e.g., Triune God - who can ever really understand that!, but it's great that people are free to express themselves here and the different points of view are enlightening. I never felt freedom to express myself during my 5 years in the lc (seems to have been SO much longer!). I still recall what I call the "Brother Comma" syndrome. You know, "Brother, yadda yadda." Usually, "you're in your mind" or "you need to turn to your spirit," or some such ice water. So I just went along with the "flow," so to speak, to avoid confrontation. That got old and when I decided I couldn't take that or the controlling lifestyle, I decided I had to walk away.

Peace to all and a great sunny weekend!!! ... "non monkey" lurker

I like the word you used - Controlling lifestyle. Though I find many things to be good and spiritual and experiential, the way I was being controlled was too much for me.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

It has been almost 30 years since I left the local church. Rarely does a day go by that I do not have feelings of angst about the matter. Not that I feel a bit of regret that I decided one day to just leave, but I felt so betrayed. I had put so much of my heart and soul into that movement, all in the name of Jesus. I was close to so many, and yet when I left, I was absolutely abandoned. Well, I did get a few knocks on the door trying to get me to start coming to meetings again, but that was not what I needed. I needed to know that the human relationships were real and could exist to some extent outside the context of the lc. But I was wrong. I have been unable to even speak about this matter until now. Thank you for this forum. I could go on and on, but I will stop. May God have mercy on us all.

Brother, I'm sorry to hear that your relationships were not made more real to you.

Can I ask the reason for leaving the church in the first place?

[coalsoffire]

I have been absent from both here & any church meetings. I do not experience this place (or churches) to be women friendly, in general. I kind of want to say something about the shattered postings which I just read. Shattered means shattered. I have some sympathy for her, in light of where she was developmentally. I also have sympathy for the ears here who were offended and understand why. Are there any co-moderators here? Just a suggestion, but a mature female co-moderator might have been able to communicate better with shattered. Is shattered completely banned now from this site?

[Cal]

coalsoffire,

Thanks for your input. Are you volunteering to be a female co-moderator? If so, I'm sure UntoHim would consider you.

Thank you, UntoHim. I needed some validation regarding the strange inconsistency of being "in the church" and yet very "out." Quite denominational, if you ask me.

I was wondering if there are any informal gatherings of ex-lc members, expecially in Ohio. Once I left, I ceased to exist, so I have not had an ounce of fellowship in over a quarter of a century, other than occasionally attending Mass at the Catholic Church, which can be a chilly experience. BTW, I really don't like to or mean to put down any church (Protestant, Catholic, lc, or any other), but I have to be honest about my personal experiences. Where is the love?

Also, in response to the lady who posted, I cannot imagine the lc experience with the added burden of being "just a sister." My heart goes out to her and the others who suffered under that regime.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by coalsoffire

I have been absent from both here & any church meetings. I do not experience this place (or churches) to be women friendly, in general. I kind of want to say something about the shattered postings which I just read. Shattered means shattered. I have some sympathy for her, in light of where she was developmentally. I also have sympathy for the ears here who were offended and understand why. Are there any co-moderators here? Just a suggestion, but a mature female co-moderator might have been able to communicate better with shattered. Is shattered completely banned now from this site?

I'm sorry to hear that you feel that the Forum is not women friendly. After all, our banner says "A safe, open place", and this absolutely includes the women/sisters among us. We do have a number of women as registered members, some who have participated quite a bit, although not lately. A couple of these women have been invited to assist in moderation, but for their own reasons have chosen not to take on that responsibility. I do agree with you that "Shattered" is in desperate need of fellowship and counselling with a mature female. The problem is that an open forum is not the proper venue for this particular kind of fellowship and counselling. I think Igzy, our current Admin, gave us all a very comprehensive presentation of the situation in a special thread he created here: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=3502

"Shattered" is not technically banned due to the fact that she never actually registered, she merely posted under that name as a guest. She was invited to register, but decided that she just wanted to give us a one-way rant. Our admin tried to give her as much leeway as was reasonable, but she made it clear that she was not interested in actual two-way discussions, but rather just to use the forum as virtual soundboard. Again, I would urge you to read what Igzy posted in the thread I referenced above.

When this forum was fist started, I created a sub-forum entitled "Martha and Mary's House" which is a specially designated password protected forum board for sisters only. You can get the password from Nell or I can have the forum system send it to you. I think this may be a proper venue for Shattered if she wants to register. This will have to be cleared through Igzy first.

[aron]

Originally Posted by coalsoffire

I have been absent from both here & any church meetings. I do not experience this place (or churches) to be women friendly, in general. ...Just a suggestion, but a mature female co-moderator might have been able to communicate better with shattered...

Just an idea, but there is a sister who went through the lc wringer and now has a website.

http://thethreadofgold.com/

You might find a good sounding board there. May God bless your journey in Christ. Surely you are as valued in God's eyes as anyone else!

Originally Posted by Igzy

I recently came up with the idea of Lurkers Only threads. These threads may only be posted to by people who have never posted or rarely post. (Rarely is a relative term so if you think you rarely post, you probably do.)

Some of us (who shall remain nameless) are quite bloviating. We are like the people in the LC who testified in every meeting. You know, that brother who made you think, "Why doesn't he just give it a rest?" I think WL called them "monkeys." We monkeys think we are smart and like the sound of our own voices. We talk too much sometimes and we probably intimidate not a few of our newer members.

Lurkers Only threads are not open to monkeys, except to post something like "Welcome to the board, so-and-so!"

So anyway, whether you are signed up or just a guest, we'd like to hear from you. Tell us you story. Make a comment about the board or anything you'd like. Or just say hi. The monkeys need a rest.

Is the Local Church a cult?

http://psquare.org/ispeak/showthread...ch-Cult-or-Not

Originally Posted by Thebackrow

Is the Local Church a cult?

http://psquare.org/ispeak/showthread...ch-Cult-or-Not

Paul Cox gave a great answer --

"The moderators of this forum have been quick to call the Local Church a cult. It has been my view all along that they are not a cult. Rather, I feel they are a sect of Christianity with strong cultic tendencies. Of course, one could say that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck. In that sense I guess they get what they deserve. They have spend millions of dollars of the saints' hard earned dollars trying to fight back this title in the courts, when all they really need to do is stop acting like a duck."

[UntoHim]

What's the difference between a "sect of Christianity with strong cultic tendencies" and a "cult of Christianity with strong orthodox/evangelical tendencies"? Six of one, one half dozen of the other? One phrase uses the politically correct "s" word and the other uses the harsh "c" word, but when all the dust settles both phrases are describing the same reality. Now that Witness Lee is dead, I think it's a little harder for people to differentiate and discern what the true condition of the Movement really is and how it may be "labeled". One thing we know for certain, whatever the folks over on La Palma Ave in Anaheim call it, we can assume it’s pretty much the opposite.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Now that Witness Lee is dead, I think it's a little harder for people to differentiate and discern what the true condition of the Movement really is and how it may be "labeled".

How about "personality cult"? From Wikipedia: "A cult of personality arises when an individual uses mass media, propaganda, or other methods, to create an idealized and heroic public image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise. Sociologist Max Weber developed a tripartite classification of authority; the cult of personality holds parallels with what Weber defined as "charismatic authority". A cult of personality is similar to hero worship, except that it is established by mass media and propaganda."

As an example, Witness Lee got Mel Porter to take his personality as his own, then Mel tried to get brother 'awareness' (& others) to take his (Mel's) personality. I also remember the lc's being called "Witness Lee duplication centers", with what seemed to be a straight face. So maybe it's a personality cult, which just happens to be religious in character.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What's the difference between a "sect of Christianity with strong cultic tendencies" and a "cult of Christianity with strong orthodox/evangelical tendencies"? Six of one, one half dozen of the other? One phrase uses the politically correct "s" word and the other uses the harsh "c" word, but when all the dust settles both phrases are describing the same reality. Now that Witness Lee is dead, I think it's a little harder for people to differentiate and discern what the true condition of the Movement really is and how it may be "labeled". One thing we know for certain, whatever the folks over on La Palma Ave in Anaheim call it, we can assume it’s pretty much the opposite.

A sect can have a somewhat benign meaning, a small group of Christians with some differing beliefs from mainstream Christianity. I would not be alarmed if a close relative met with a Christian "sect".

The word cult has a derogatory meaning, suggesting the worship of a man along with some sinister teachings and/or practices.

[coalsoffire]

Brothers, I feel safe and welcomed here. I reviewed, in my mind, what I meant by not "women friendly," and I think I meant more along the lines of not "very interesting to women, in general." And the certain (hard to describe) sense I get when the male presence is dominant, like when I am at home and there are all males around the table, and me. Not intimidating; perhaps overwhelming; unbalanced. Now there is the word I was looking for: unbalanced.

I remember vaguely a teaching of Witness Lee's: a healthy picture of the church-life (or maybe it pertained to door knocking) is Mary, Martha, and Lazarus, the ratio being 1 male to 2 females.

I do not want to be a co-moderator; I am thankful for this place, but it is not a place I am inclined to linger. This place has been helpful to me, however. And there are some sweet brothers here.

I recently went to the 2 "local" churches in Cleveland's websites. There was something on one for the sisters, fellowship for the married sisters and such. Again, it seemed unbalanced. Maybe I am too much of a feminist or something. Discouraging, too, is the divided local churches; I really had no idea such a thing existed. But, really, it should have come as no surprise.

Back and forth, a promise of unity, then division; it will never end. Just like wars. Mostly male driven, if you ask me. But, the sisters would probably botch it all up as well, if they were in charge.

I do not know the answer, for me. Where to go to church? I sympathize with the sister who attends Mass every now and then. I determined I would return to the Mother Church of them all. And I did, and it was easy for a time, to just go and do the rituals, which can be very meaningful if you let them be, and eat Jesus, and then be sustained until the next time. It was simple, beautiful, and grounding. And it was not too demanding, except, for me, the examination of conscience and confession. Yet, politics crept in, as usual.

I just can't take it anymore. There is nowhere to go, nowhere "to be." Just here, where I am, in all that I do. I give up on this church thing and on who is right and who is wrong. I do not have the heart for it.

[aron]

Originally Posted by coalsoffire

Brothers, I feel safe and welcomed here. I reviewed, in my mind, what I meant by not "women friendly," and I think I meant more along the lines of not "very interesting to women, in general." And the certain (hard to describe) sense I get when the male presence is dominant, like when I am at home and there are all males around the table, and me. Not intimidating; perhaps overwhelming; unbalanced.

... Maybe I am too much of a feminist or something... I just do not have the heart for it.

The "Good News", at least in part, is that Jesus was, arguably, waaaay feminist. Where else can you see something like sister Mary chilling out blissfully at His feet? Even today, 2000 years later, Jesus would be egalitarian, inclusive, and "progressive".

Now, where are you going to find such a comfortable, non-judgmental, welcoming, non-hierarchical, open scene today? I don't know. But it was there, at least once -- it's been recorded in the 4 gospels. Though it seems the door slammed shut quickly, that kind of world is out there, somewhere: if it was there once it is (at least potentially) there always.

I think forums like this are interesting for hyper-rational males who like to hear themselves think. Understandable that it would be less than compelling to many others.

Just follow the Spirit. That's all I can really say. Follow the Spirit and you will get where you are supposed to go. Pray the prayer that you have been waiting to pray your whole life, the one God has been waiting to hear from you; pray for your destiny. When God hears it surely He will do it. He has placed the Living Prayer in front of you, waiting for your heart to sense it and your mouth to echo it. "But what does it say? The Word is very nigh unto thee..."

[Cal]

Originally Posted by coalsoffire

I just can't take it anymore. There is nowhere to go, nowhere "to be." Just here, where I am, in all that I do. I give up on this church thing and on who is right and who is wrong. I do not have the heart for it.

Every Christian needs fellowship. We were not meant to be just by ourselves. We are meant to help others and be helped by others. We have to pray that the Lord brings us together with the people he wants us to be with. Being a lone ranger has no future.

You don't have to get involved in politics, you don't even have to join a "church." Just do what you can and leave the rest to God. Sure, people are frustrating. Everyone experiences that. What else is new? But I believe part of the maturing process is to learn to deal with people while not compromising integrity.

The Church is everywhere. It might just be with some neighborhood friends once a week at Starbucks. You don't have to be conventional--but don't give up on the Church. That's the same as giving up on humanity, which means giving up on yourself.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Paul Cox gave a great answer --

"The moderators of this forum have been quick to call the Local Church a cult. It has been my view all along that they are not a cult. Rather, I feel they are a sect of Christianity with strong cultic tendencies. Of course, one could say that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck. In that sense I guess they get what they deserve. They have spend millions of dollars of the saints' hard earned dollars trying to fight back this title in the courts, when all they really need to do is stop acting like a duck."

They are a Christian sect that acts like a cult but isn't because all they really need to do is stop acting like a cult? Is that what you are saying?

A cult is defined as having religious devotion to a man and sinister teachings or practices. The devotion to WL and WN as the MOTA is religious devotion to a man. The teaching concerning the ground of the church is the basis to segregate themselves from the rest of the Body of Christ. That is a sinister teaching.

So then can the Local church really "stop" the religious devotion to WL and WN and can they drop the divisive "ground of the church" teaching?

Can some one tell me what happened with the tumoils that happened. I know about Titus Chu, and brother Dong You Lang, and little bit about bro lees son. But like why did so many saints leave in those times. What caused them to leave the church life.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Can some one tell me what happened with the tumoils that happened. I know about Titus Chu, and brother Dong You Lang, and little bit about bro lees son. But like why did so many saints leave in those times. What caused them to leave the church life.

Brothers and sisters leave for various reasons. Most common the nature of the recovery changed from our fellowship being based on our daily walk with the Lord to our fellowship being based on the ministry.
For a brother or sister to prophesy in a Lord's Day meeting, it became too restrictive to prophesy according to the current LSM publication. In their daily reading of the Word there is something they received light on the ministry didn't cover.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Can some one tell me what happened with the tumoils that happened. I know about Titus Chu, and brother Dong You Lang, and little bit about bro lees son. But like why did so many saints leave in those times. What caused them to leave the church life.

Most saw the corruption at LSM.

It kind of happened like when Dorothy's dog Toto pulled open the curtain to expose the "great and powerful" Wizard of Oz.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Can some one tell me what happened with the tumoils that happened. I know about Titus Chu, and brother Dong You Lang, and little bit about bro lees son. But like why did so many saints leave in those times. What caused them to leave the church life.

A good start would be to read "Speaking the Truth in Love," by John Ingalls.

I have a pdf copy of it. Contact Untohim (localchurchdiscussions@gmail.com) and he'll give you my email address. I'll send it to you.

[coalsoffire]

Haven't visited here in some time. I may have posted this before, but I reccomend the movie: Babette's Feast

Thanks to all who responded to me before. I am not so "lost" as I felt before.

Hmm... I wonder if my Five Baptisms story would be helpful to anyone?

[aron]

Originally Posted by coalsoffire

Haven't visited here in some time. I may have posted this before, but I recommend the movie: Babette's Feast?

Saw it on your recommendation. Loved it. Great message.

So I've dawdled through here and figured I would post.

I grew up in the LC(90's) and always was aware we were different, even from other Christians. It was confusing and isolating really. The locality I grew up in didn't have that many YP and many left/no longer meet. Also, my father is still an important figure in that locale, even our family company employs solely saints. I remember a prayer at SST that I basically told God that if I was really meant to stay with this group for the rest of my life, then so be it...which one sister translated to "aww...He asked the Lord to keep him in the LC" I even remember as a child something outlined like "you get out of HS, then you go to college, and then to the training". A few things. As a biologist I was quite annoyed with trying to bridge the God gap continually and also the continual use of natural systems as models for the church, or Gods plan, or whatever. It all makes so much more sense through the lens of evolution. Another common theme that made no sense is that we had it all and that other folk were blind and lost.

I went to college(my folks were ok with me going anywhere so long as they had a campus work-so my little hope of escaping after highschool died) and stayed involved with the club on campus. Near the end of college I had fallen pretty hard for a girl in the club, and a really close friend and had been seeing each other and ended up getting married later. As the person closest to him I had heard nothing of it. The whole dating thing (I held out telling her for years the way I felt about her because I didn't feel like it would be ok to do...which sounds crazy looking back and thinking about how healthy relationships with the opposite sex should be. Needless to say I have never dated or anything and am a bit clueless where I'd begin-done with the whole "wait for god thing" and all the weirdness of how the right way to do it is to have a leading one tell the person you're interested in that you are...blah blah)
and the way the club would check in on student activities was always rather weird. I was really struggling and while many saints were very kind of caring, as things drew on many people kind of started distancing themselves or ignoring the issue. It is one thing to be able to ask about a physical illness, but it you are having issues emotionally dealing with things that is not ok and it may be because you aren't in your spirit enough etc. I'm thankful for the ones who I'd consider as friends who simply took me in and allowed me to, well, not be ok! Not to have to put on a face like I was doing great. I can be glad in the way it turned out now because had it somehow turned out that I ended up with her I'd be in deep in the LC, but still with my questions. It ended up hurting too much to continue going to meetings and the like and not really feeling cared for and having to hide it, so I petered out and stopped-save for a few folk that I consider close friends and I can trust(though I couple of em I suppose might be praying for me) not to pressure me to come back.

Their was also a lot of pressure to go to the training at the end of college. It really sent up red flags when the decision was framed as "The training, or everything else". I had a lot of good reasons to go to the training I guess(peers, status I suppose, the mention of people meeting spouses in the training), but it just did not seem right to go against what I really believed. It also didn't make sense that no mention was made of everyone who went and dropped out and disappeared, or otherwise. I ended up sacrificing a lot of happiness and progress towards the path I really wanted to take to take a job in the area to stay near the saints per advice of a leading brother-which in truth I suppose I should have taken to the Lord.

I since had the time of my life working a seasonal job a few states away from where I grew up, and am pretty sure what I want to do in life. But socially I am not. To stick to the plan I have to toss nearly everything and everyone I have ever known. I do have a couple close friends outside the church life thankfully but it is difficult to otherwise start from scratch. People really need to be put in a box and shaken around a bit to truly bond I think. A cousin introduced me to a group in my hometown that I've gone to a few services and hung out with the people(who, by golly, were every bit as nice as LC people were...so much for what they tried teaching us about "the world")...but at this point I'm not even sure I feel comfortable calling myself Christian anymore. I just want people to be happy and be able to care for each other-that's all. Is that really that hard to ask or find?

[Lisbon]

With respect to "all can prophecy". It is quite crystal clear that the whole of christianity very clearly picks and chooses which parts of the bible they will actually believe.
This 1cor 14 is a prime example. I have heard over a thousand times , you can all prophecy, but I have never heard wl or any leading one admit to the speaking of Paul that "if one receives a revelation, let the first sit down and the second speak". Oh how we need to hear revelation. What you have figured out as WL often did can leave you so cold. But when someone speaks from revelation you get the sense so strongly inwardly that this is truth which is of course God. The new saint who gets a revelation that in a sense you already realize is a real blessing. But to hear a reading of HWFMR can be pure death.

I went to a Lutheren church when I first left the LC and their reading a book including their prayers left me cold. But I did get some speaking of The Lord
"You know your friends just a mile or so away are doing about the same thing using HWFMR."
How we need The Lord!

Seventy five years ago we used to sing a song "Trust and obey for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey. The theology is probably not that good but maybe as good as we've heard the last forty years.
lisbon

[Intothewind]

Freedom: So I am registered. Wee!

Reading numbly through a number of threads...this caught my attention

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For better or worse? Are you kidding me? I live comfortably a few blocks from the ocean, I have hiked the Inca trail and hiked down the Grand Canyon a few times, the White Mtns, Appalachian trail etc., caught salmon, rockfish, halibut etc in Alaska, kayaked and dug up claims in Alaska, witnessed the blue whale, sperm whales as far as the eye can see in the Sea of Cortez, swam with sea lions, dolphins, manatees, rented a 100 ft yacht where we were in the middle of a feeding frenzy of humpback whales in the inside passage in Alaska… Life is not just about saying Oh Lord Jesus but enjoying the journey of this life. Sure I have read extensively but I am also an activist for what I believe. I don’t just mouth the words but I do my best to live the life. My wife will be part of 100,000 marchers in September in NY in the People’s Climate March. Anyway, life for me is more than finding out the meaning of the greek word “love” but the experience of life itself.
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I feel like in many religious groups(the LC amongst them) enjoyment of this current life and the simple good things is really understated at best. Recently I had a talk with my sister about how Creation is apparently moaning and hoping for us to come together and bring the second coming about. I don't really get it to be honest. Holding a colored lens of this sort up to your eye will cause you to miss much of the joy and fascination of being alive and observing simple miracles.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Intothewind

I feel like in many religious groups(the LC amongst them) enjoyment of this current life and the simple good things is really understated at best. Recently I had a talk with my sister about how Creation is apparently moaning and hoping for us to come together and bring the second coming about. I don't really get it to be honest. Holding a colored lens of this sort up to your eye will cause you to miss much of the joy and fascination of being alive and observing simple miracles.

I understand what you are saying. The LC has the tendency to "spiritualize" everything, so it really undermines the enjoyment of the simple things in life. I think some in the LC do enjoy activities like camping, hiking or traveling, however, it seems that they are afraid of enjoying nature too much. They often will have conferences up in the mountains, but there is never much time to just relax, it's all about being busy and going to meetings.

As I have been distancing myself from LC activities, I have come to realize how much I have missed out on in life. It's not that I didn't appreciate things before, it's just that I was too busy attending meetings to be able to think about anything else.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I understand what you are saying. The LC has the tendency to "spiritualize" everything, so it really undermines the enjoyment of the simple things in life.

In this over "spiritualize" of everything, many have forgotten to receive according as God has received us. Instead in this over spiritualize, receiving fellow Christians is according to the ministry.
One elder has compared the recovery to the Marines...it's not for everyone. If that's the concept, how difficult is it to receive one another where they're at?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

In this over "spiritualize" of everything, many have forgotten to receive according as God has received us. Instead in this over spiritualize, receiving fellow Christians is according to the ministry.
One elder has compared the recovery to the Marines...it's not for everyone. If that's the concept, how difficult is it to receive one another where they're at?

I think what happens is that when younger brothers and sisters see their leadership setting an example of abnormal spirituality, they begin to see it as normal. It then becomes hard to accept people who don't hold that same standard or level of "spirituality".

A few years ago I was at Disneyland with a friend. My friend, who attends a non-LC church happened to run into one of the pastors from his church there. When this happened, it made me consider, I would be hard-pressed to run into an LC elder at Disneyland. Elders who would even think of going would be few and far between. It's not that anyone in the LC is opposed to going to Disneyland, it's just a matter of it not meeting the level of pseudo-spirituality that they hold themselves to.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I think what happens is that when younger brothers and sisters see their leadership setting an example of abnormal spirituality, they begin to see it as normal. It then becomes hard to accept people who don't hold that same standard or level of "spirituality".

A few years ago I was at Disneyland with a friend. My friend, who attends a non-LC church happened to run into one of the pastors from his church there. When this happened, it made me consider, I would be hard-pressed to run into an LC elder at Disneyland. Elders who would even think of going would be few and far between. It's not that anyone in the LC is opposed to going to Disneyland, it's just a matter of it not meeting the level of pseudo-spirituality that they hold themselves to.

There is a reason that you and many others put the word in quotes. True spirituality is one that lives a normal life with Christ as the center. Pseudo spirituality is one that makes everything abnormal but with religious overtones so that the truth of the life lived is masked.

I am not saying that anyone avoids all wearing of masks. But at least we do not hide our failures behind a façade of faux spirituality.

Faux, pseudo spirituality is to take a filthy cup and guild the outside with brass and rhinestones, calling it gold and diamonds — all while ignoring the festering filth on the inside.

And this faux persona is created both to hide the failings of the leadership and to trap the followers into thinking that this faux spirituality is real. (Reminds me of a shop in Six Flags that was full of "genuine simulated" fur items.) Now otherwise honest and God-fearing people are fooled into living a lie in the name of spirituality.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Intothewind

Holding a colored lens of this sort up to your eye will cause you to miss much of the joy and fascination of being alive and observing simple miracles.

You quoted me "I hiked the Inca trail" etc but what caught my eye was your moving to a more realistic picture of life. We all have to take stock of our situation at various times in our lives and balance our Christian beliefs and practices, family, outside activities and so on. Without balance we will become lopsided.

The LC from my experience will make you lopsided. I was attending pray-reading meetings in the morning and life study meetings in the evening almost 7 days a week for a few years back in the day. In between I was attending college while at the same time preaching the gospel on campuses or talking to other Christians about attending the LC. The LC can make you nutty. It is not always easy to find balance because things happen in our lives but I always to try to get back to a balanced life to make it more fulfilling. I think you do get it.

[Intothewind]

Originally Posted by Dave

You quoted me "I hiked the Inca trail" etc but what caught my eye was your moving to a more realistic picture of life. We all have to take stock of our situation at various times in our lives and balance our Christian beliefs and practices, family, outside activities and so on. Without balance we will become lopsided. It is not always easy to find balance because things happen in our lives but I always to try to get back to a balanced life to make it more fulfilling. I think you do get it.

Dave,

I'm not sure I get it yet. Generally speaking when released a pendulum rocks back and forth for quite some time before coming to rest over an agreed upon center-which is hopefully a good one. I have no idea what the other side of this pendulum is-that is why analogies to natural systems are often inept ways to describe life.

I'm been thinking through some tough decisions-which no one is good at. I suspect people in charismatic groups are particularly bad at this as they are constantly being told or influenced by what to do. Like I mentioned in the passed real red flags went up when the decision past college was framed as "the training or other things". I usually don't like to admit it but I am an intellectual person passionate about ideas and life-which is officially not to well received in the LR where you have to just read without questioning. In short I have to decide if the bonds, the familiarity, etc. I have made in the LC are more important than freedom to look at life like ripples from a water drop-endless possibilities...rather than peeling the LC onion to reach the truths that must certainly lie in its center.

Life has been interesting, if not more lonely so far. It is nice to not have to tow the LC along...I always didn't feel like the real me when I had to talk about it(actually even individuality is very warped in the LC). I remember speaking about the gospel and comparing it to the spontaneous sharing with peers about a restaurant one enjoyed. I realized for myself I couldn't genuinely tell people that-and I have had to also convince myself that this is not my fault-still doubting and difficult for me. Life certainly would be easier(but more enjoyable?) if I could just go along with everything!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Intothewind

I feel like in many religious groups(the LC amongst them) enjoyment of this current life and the simple good things is really understated at best. Recently I had a talk with my sister about how Creation is apparently moaning and hoping for us to come together and bring the second coming about. I don't really get it to be honest. Holding a colored lens of this sort up to your eye will cause you to miss much of the joy and fascination of being alive and observing simple miracles.

Today I realize that this is what happens when you take someone else's will as your own. Their intention supersedes yours, and, importantly, God's. Conversely, when you find God's will for you, then you can have peace in everything, and can find enjoyment in everything.

When you are usurped by another's intention you also absorb their anxieties, dissatisfaction, and shame. Case in point, in the LCs whenever I met someone "in the world" I was trying to get them to come to the LC meetings. Now, whenever I meet people I can meet them where they are. I have no anxiety about their situation, because they are exactly where God wants them to be at that moment. Then, I accept them, and don't try to manipulate them. I have no goal. God has the goal. And they pick up on it and then God can flow, if He wants to. I am not manipulating the flow of God.

But if you take someone else's goal as your own (even if they cover it with a few Bible verses it is still theirs) then you get robbed of the enjoyment of life which is your birthright. So you end up transferring (their) dissatisfaction onto others, trying to get relief yourself.

[Lisbon]

A comment on bells in LC meetings.
If the bells hadn't come along the cards would have fallen a long time ago.

My thought is that many many people can take only so much of protracted garbage. I can take maybe one or two ten minute off the wall sermons but after that I'm out. The bells were a real salvation of the LC.
Lisbon

[aron]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

A comment on bells in LC meetings.
If the bells hadn't come along the cards would have fallen a long time ago.

My thought is that many many people can take only so much of protracted garbage. I can take maybe one or two ten minute off the wall sermons but after that I'm out. The bells were a real salvation of the LC.
Lisbon

It is one of the reasons that I am growing less sanguine with the charismatic movement. The arm-waving and yelling got people all pumped up, but for what? Number one it made them susceptible to bad doctrine. If you yelled, "The sky is yellow!" loudly enough you began to believe it was true.

Number two, you get rambling, semi-incoherent, even hysterical messages and testimonies from the saints. They would be so full of excitement they didn't know how to stop. So they had to cut them off with the piano and the bell. This is exactly the kind of disorderliness Paul was remonstrating with the Corinthians about.

Look in the book of Acts. How many screaming, arm-waving testimonies do you see in evidence? They look pretty sober-minded to me; usually paragons of clear thinking and logic. Look at Peter on Pentecost, standing with the eleven. Look at Paul in Athens.

But the charismatic focus makes us emotionally strung out, which leads to the notion that volume in decibels and volume in length somehow equates to "God's eternal economy", i.e. God dispensing Himself into mortal man. And it covers the existence of poorly thought out ideas. That is why anyone trying to think in the LCs got labeled "negative" or "independent" or "questioning." Instead, they want you to just scream whatever Big Brother is speaking.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

That is why anyone trying to think in the LCs got labeled "negative" or "independent" or "questioning." Instead, they want you to just scream whatever Big Brother is speaking.

The LC culture does not advocate being mindful, but being mindless. For a visual reference watch the old Star Trek series episode on "Landru".

Unregistered of 9-13 stated:
"It has been almost 30 years since I left the local church. Rarely does a day go by that I do not have feelings of angst about the matter. Not that I feel a bit of regret that I decided one day to just leave, but I felt so betrayed. I had put so much of my heart and soul into that movement, all in the name of Jesus. I was close to so many, and yet when I left, I was absolutely abandoned."

My husband has put about that amount of time into the LC and has decided to leave. He cannot be swayed. This, from someone who has supported the "Ministry" and the LC heart and soul for many, many years. And why? He is leaving because he is a quiet man. Every meeting leaves him feeling like a failure for not "feeding others" with the public speaking that to him is a frightening experience filled with an over-surge of adrenaline. This feeling of being a failure is compounded by the total lack of regard and attention he feels from the other saints. I am more talkative and, so, get more attention. This is unfair in his eyes because my "chatting" is not "spiritual" but usually only knowledge (my assessment). In other words, as long as you can talk fairly easily and openly, you get acknowledged and get, perhaps, some respect. The quiet ones? Nothing. Even if you serve as usher--as does my husband. What is so very sad about this is that some of the quieter ones are far more spiritual, truth be told, than those who leap up to share at every meeting. The quiet ones are often very faithful in tithing (certainly VERY necessary for a church to function) and usually show up to do those things the church has requested of the saints. The talkers? Often all talk and no do. (I serve in a certain place in the church where individuals will simply not show up when it is their turn but there they are--talking it up big-time during the meeting and "feeding the flock" and getting attention for it.)

And get this: when we finally leave, there will be no one who leaves the "ninety-and-nine" to come look for us--not that it will work by that time. He is done. Only the popular get ministry--we have seen this repeatedly--and only the popular would be missed. Purely from a strategical point, it would seem that those who have been constant and faithful in giving would be missed and sought after missing. But no! They fail to value even this.

I think more than anything, my husband is deeply wounded to finally figure out that he has no value in their eyes. People walk past him and do not even greet him--after being there for so very long AND serving and giving faithfully. I mean, how hard is it to say, "Hello, John!"? But apparently it IS hard because after he shared with me that this has happened and been happening for some time, I watched and saw that it was true. When he returned home from the small group meetings, he would say that no one greeted him when he entered or noticed when he left--when I questioned him. Can you imagine this?? What would Our Lord say about this? I can assure you that this man tells the truth as it is.

And so he has decided that we will try out another church--a denomination that preaches the gospel. He says that perhaps he is "only fit" for churches where a "preacher does all the work". This breaks my heart. He is kind, faithful, committed, and giving. Greeting is so basic. Small chitchat is so necessary to make others feel noticed and at home. Why is it that this church does not catch on? Why do they not seem to care at all?

Last, I would appreciate any suggestions you may have about helping him during this time of transition. I just wish I could tell you how huge this is for him. He loves the "ministry" but found that he has no value in the place where it is shared.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

My husband has put about that amount of time into the LC and has decided to leave. He cannot be swayed. This, from someone who has supported the "Ministry" and the LC heart and soul for many, many years. And why? He is leaving because he is a quiet man.

Sister thanks for posting! Welcome to the forum!

I can relate to your husband, having also spent my best 30 years there as a faithful "mule," spending far more time behind the scenes serving the church, only to take a number of "beatings" at the end in order to protect the "church stars."

I really appreciate your attitude and understanding towards your husband. You have voiced what many others have only felt. The emphasis of the LC is so different from the heart of God.

I pray your husband could also post here. There is just tons of leaven in the teachings and practices of the LC that need to be "purged out." Often the best help can come from those who also have wandered down the same paths.

May the Lord bless you on your journey. What many kind and loving churches would give for more couples like you!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

And why? He is leaving because he is a quiet man. Every meeting leaves him feeling like a failure for not "feeding others" with the public speaking that to him is a frightening experience filled with an over-surge of adrenaline. This feeling of being a failure is compounded by the total lack of regard and attention he feels from the other saints. I am more talkative and, so, get more attention. This is unfair in his eyes because my "chatting" is not "spiritual" but usually only knowledge (my assessment). In other words, as long as you can talk fairly easily and openly, you get acknowledged and get, perhaps, some respect. The quiet ones? Nothing...
Last, I would appreciate any suggestions you may have about helping him during this time of transition. I just wish I could tell you how huge this is for him. He loves the "ministry" but found that he has no value in the place where it is shared.

I had this experience when I first came into the church. Couldn't speak, felt like a total failure. Then I read the portion in Luke about the Lord considering firing the Steward. I was terrified. The pressure, the over adrenaline, the others leaping out of their seats. I saw myself as one of those stewards about to get fired. So I decided to "clear out the pantry". I felt I had one or two experiences I could share before getting the boot. I always wanted to wait for the perfect time to share the experience, but I thought what is the point, I'm about to be gone. It was like Hannukah, I thought I'd exhaust all my experiences in a week, but the oil never ran out. My advice to him is this, you have already decided to leave, so what do you have to lose. No doubt he has one or two experiences he hasn't shared yet, why not share them before leaving?