How Can This Forum Improve?

[UntoHim]

First of all a hardy and heartfelt thanks to all who have participated on the Forum for the past year.

I'm opening up this thread for input and suggestions on how the Forum can be improved.

There are also some goals I would like to set.

One would be to see some participation by current Local Church members. We all know the reasons why most are not participating. What I would like to see is for us to give them reasons TO participate.

I also would like some help from some of you tech savvy brothers and sisters on how the Forum may get some increased exposure out there in cyberspace. This would include increased exposure on the various search engines. Also I like some ideas on the best way to integrate the Forum with some of the social media sites such as Facebook and Twitter.

[TLFisher]

I like what UntoHim is trying to do in fostering communication. I would ask is it possible to bridge the gap without sacrficing integrity? We know the mindset of touching the past is akin to the "Tree of Knowledge". Still it is not possible to sacrifice integrity by looking the other way relating to sins. I ask, is it possible to have dialogue objectively? This would be my first and foremost goal on this forum in relation to brothers and sisters currently meeting in the Local Churches. Past experiences has indicated otherwise; a subjective reaction when questions related to history or practices are asked. At best the response given is "be one with the brothers". Which may illustrate concerns have merit, but not to the point of breaking one accord with the blended brothers.

As far as improvements go, I'd like to see easier thread navigation. Perhaps not having so much content threads are located under.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

"Hardy" is what a plant is, that helps it to survive cold winters, heat and drought. "Hearty" is what kind of thanks we give; it means like 'unstinted'. Genuine and full.

And a hearty thanks for the grammar lesson! Not being of the hearty (strike that, I mean) hardy variety of spellers, I can use all the help I can get!

Originally Posted by Terry

I like what UntoHim is trying to do in fostering communication. I would ask is it possible to bridge the gap without sacrficing integrity? We know the mindset of touching the past is akin to the "Tree of Knowledge". Still it is not possible to sacrifice integrity by looking the other way relating to sins. I ask, is it possible to have dialogue objectively? This would be my first and foremost goal on this forum in relation to brothers and sisters currently meeting in the Local Churches. Past experiences has indicated otherwise; a subjective reaction when questions related to history or practices are asked. At best the response given is "be one with the brothers". Which may illustrate concerns have merit, but not to the point of breaking one accord with the blended brothers.

As far as improvements go, I'd like to see easier thread navigation. Perhaps not having so much content threads are located under.

Thanks Terry. I think you bring up a lot of good points here. You are so right about "past experiences". One of the things I would like to see happen right here on this forum is to see some current members take a chance, come out on a limb, and break the cycle of ignoring their brothers and sisters in Christ.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

We know the mindset of touching the past is akin to the "Tree of Knowledge".

According to Lee. It was his way of avoiding the truth.

But I do not think that anything in scripture actually suggests that we should avoid the truth due to any reference to this pre-fall tree or the fall itself. In fact, it would seem that knowing the right path is very important in the scripture

The whole thing is a flight of fancy. An imaginary construct. He may have come upon it honestly, but it served him well over the years as he caused so many to refuse biblical directives to righteousness and holiness when it was his or his family's unrighteousness involved. A system in which you do not act according to righteous knowledge, but refrain from it in favor of awaiting more dispensing. And using the lack of dispensing as an excuse for unrighteousness and the TOKOGAE as a cause to ignore the unrighteousness that remains.

"Study to show yourself approved." Somehow I don't think this verse aligns with Lee's assault on knowledge. So who wins — Lee or scripture?

[OBW]

Now, having responded to an off-topic comment, I will weigh in on the topic.

I'm not sure that the answer to participation is in sections devoted to Local Church-friendly posts. That may be OK.

But the problem I see is in how we deal with some of the LRC people that do come.

It is a forum violation to "out" the identity of another forum member. Yet we feel quite OK with arguing about how someone is using a different moniker here than in the Bereans forum. So what. Get over it. I did it too. The fact that you don't like the way that someone is posting should be dealt with in terms of the arguments, not the person. And while we have generally not been dishing out ad hominems, we often are too focused on perceived motives than on what is said. If you can't deal with what is said, then study it until you can. Or until you change your mind.

And if they truly violate some forum rule, then deal with it. Otherwise, stick to the arguments.

If you want to direct a topic at someone, don't presume or demand that they agree with you to do so. It is antagonistic. And useless at much of anything.

Admit that the forum is not completely open. It took too long to evict the irrelevant posting of those "my writing is scripture" guys a few months back. Don't ask for permission to evict profane and inflammatory posts, especially after sufficient warnings. And don't cower to the soft-hearted who just want to let everybody do whatever.

And for those of us that think we are dong it mostly right, some of us need to quit being offended that someone disagrees. The nature of the discussion is "argument." Not dispute, but an interchange of ideas well formed and grounded in something that we tend to agree is a sound base for truth. There is interpretation, so we don't always agree on everything. Lay out your reasons for your positions. Don't presume that disagreement is personal. It is OK to agree to disagree. And a point being made due to "your" position (specifically against it) may be useful for others in the forum even if you do not think you the point is correct. But engage the disagreement in terms of the discussion, not in terms of your emotions and feelings.

While spiritual things are not always discoverable within logic and reason, the discussions should be logical and reasonable. Be sure that you are actually responding to what has been said. And be sure that you are saying what you mean to say. Do not presume that a response that says "you" means a personal attack. It may only be an identifier as to who made the particular statement. And when someone says that you said "X" and you just demand where it was said, beware that you may find that a directed response to a previous post may indeed show that you did. It is better to be a little humble and admit that you may have misspoke, or been unclear. Clarify. It may get tedious. And you may discover that someone simply does not want to understand. Or is trying to obfuscate things. Better to ignore them than just go ballistic. (I say that when I am not going ballistic.)

Last, the discussion of what it right or wrong about the teachings of any particular person cannot be based upon what they said. It is clearly about what they said. But if they are the foundation upon which their correctness or incorrectness is based, there is no discussion. All arguments are circular and we might as well go away. Lee is not right or wrong based solely upon Lee (or Nee, for that matter). There must be something outside of them that is relied upon to test them. That is mainly scripture. We can refer to other writers, but those must be tied to scripture or we are just arguing one secondary against another without reference to the primary source.

For this reason, we must discuss the teachings and doctrines meticulously. At this point, there is a tremendous lack of prior information because the old Bereans site is closed. It is still available for reference (at least I have managed to get into it about 2 out of 5 times I tried). But there is no certainty that it will remain. We need to stop relying on what has gone before. If it isn't in this forum, it might as well not exist. It is time to get theological. I would agree that most of the LRC's problems are practical and therefore, their orthopraxy, as well as all of the storms, cover-ups, etc., are extremely relevant. But while there is an orthodox core, the reason that the orthopraxy is so messed-up is that there is a serious problem with defining what is the main thing. And what is the way to read the Bible. It is too much like being handed a thick manual of how to reread so many words and phrases that what is important becomes unimportant and what is unimportant (or not there) become preeminent. It is a system of error that takes too many away from the real charge we have concerning our life here and now. It is replacing righteousness with "in your spirit." It replaces obedience with abiding and getting dispensing. It paralyzes too many, yet makes them certain that they are God's best and that all others are deficient, even harlot daughters of the Whore of Babylon.

Simply having areas designated for the posting of untouched "pro LRC" material seems to undermine the very purpose of the discussion — unless it is implicitly for the purpose of giving material for immediate discussion of the "current" issues. The LRC has plenty of sites with their own things. And you can be sure that if you go to one of them and post something negative, you will be booted off. I feel that other than as a reference for the ongoing discussions, postings that are strictly advertisements for the LSM/LRC should be deleted. Same for any other kind of ministry. There have been too many others allowed in the past. Anyone can make a recommendation. But when threads are created that only tangentially have a link to Nee, Lee, or the LRC, then post copious quantities of material from another ministry and spend most of their time directing us toward following that, it should also be deleted.

I'm not even sure that the things you link on the sides are entirely appropriate. Links to the online LSM and RecV are good for sources materials. But advertising the next conference? Not sure it should be done. It opens the forum to advertisement for any conference.

[OBW]

Unto,

One more thing. I believe that you can track sources of posts (URL). Take a little more time (if possible) and refuse to repost more than 2 or 3 for any particular "unregistered" guest. Unregistered has become a place to hide. A place where one unregistered can deny having made any statement because there are other unregistereds.

In fact, it should become policy that only greetings or personal testimonies will be allowed as "unregistered." Any involvement in active discussion should be registered. It takes the burden off of you and moves the discussion along more smoothly.

[77150]

Originally Posted by OBW

Unto,

One more thing. I believe that you can track sources of posts (URL). Take a little more time (if possible) and refuse to repost more than 2 or 3 for any particular "unregistered" guest. Unregistered has become a place to hide. A place where one unregistered can deny having made any statement because there are other unregistereds.

In fact, it should become policy that only greetings or personal testimonies will be allowed as "unregistered." Any involvement in active discussion should be registered. It takes the burden off of you and moves the discussion along more smoothly.

Since this probably refers to me (in part, there are definitely others posting as unregistered) I will comment. When you post without having registered you are required to read those letters and numbers and type them in. So if you wrote Guest 1 but wrote in the letters and numbers incorrectly it erases your name as Guest 1 and puts in unregistered and a new set of letters and numbers. So there were several times when I was posting as "unregistered" when I had put in Guest 1 but it got deleted. Once I realized this was happening it happened less.

Second, the only reason I registered was because I had been sucked into a discussion and felt that to respond to Igzy I needed to start a new thread.

[bookworm]

Originally Posted by OBW

I would agree that most of the LRC's problems are practical and therefore, their orthopraxy, as well as all of the storms, cover-ups, etc., are extremely relevant. But while there is an orthodox core, the reason that the orthopraxy is so messed-up is that there is a serious problem with defining what is the main thing. And what is the way to read the Bible. It is too much like being handed a thick manual of how to reread so many words and phrases that what is important becomes unimportant and what is unimportant (or not there) become preeminent. It is a system of error that takes too many away from the real charge we have concerning our life here and now. It is replacing righteousness with "in your spirit." It replaces obedience with abiding and getting dispensing. It paralyzes too many, yet makes them certain that they are God's best and that all others are deficient, even harlot daughters of the Whore of Babylon.

Thank you OBW for these excellent points. You put into words just what the local churches and their allegiance to the LSM (Living Stream Ministry) have done. As a result many people have suffered at the hands of those who idolize Witness Lee and “the ministry” with his so-called life study messages that apparently continue to be read as the basis of worship in the present local church meetings worldwide. Because of such there is a real need for an open forum that can expose such works and protect others (especially idealistic young college students) from being lured into the local churches/LSM.

[UntoHim]

Thanks for all the input, however, what I am really looking for is not commentary on the inner workings and past history of the Forum, but rather how it can be improved and even more "accommodating" for the participation of current LC members. There are plenty of threads already in place where we can take jabs at the teachings, practices and history of the movement, what I am looking for here is a way forward, for the future, vis-a-vis the encouragement of participation of current members. I never envisioned the Forum to be simply a gathering place for former members, although that is one of the main reasons, and I think the Forum has served that purpose well. I think it is high time that we fulfill the statement on the header banner "a community of former AND CURRENT members". I know this will take some "accommodating" by many of us oldies-but-goodies (translate: crusty, set-in-our-ways and jaded but well-meaning) And by accommodating I do NOT mean that we sacrifice the truth in any way, shape or form. That would be a great disservice to all concerned, and even to God Himself.

Originally Posted by OBW

Simply having areas designated for the posting of untouched "pro LRC" material seems to undermine the very purpose of the discussion — unless it is implicitly for the purpose of giving material for immediate discussion of the "current" issues.

I did want to quickly address this concern. I have no intention of allowing entire threads for the promotion of "pro LC" material. As noted, the LSM already has ample Internet sites for this. I would like to see some threads set up, and moderated in such a manner that would put current members on "equal footing". This may involve allowing current members to initiate and moderate such threads. The way that many of the Forum threads are set up, we are asking current members to jump right into a shark tank with absolutely no protection. After all, who in their right mind would do that? I have more to say regarding this but it will have to wait for later today.

[77150]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Thanks for all the input, however, what I am really looking for is not commentary on the inner workings and past history of the Forum, but rather how it can be improved and even more "accommodating" for the participation of current LC members...

I think it would be more accommodating if it created a unique "unregistered" instead of a generic one. Or better yet if it required you to put in a name instead of assigning "unregistered" automatically. I expect many people find this site and might be interested in saying something even if they are not ready to go to the hassle of registering. These would most likely be those who are looking up the LC for reasons other than being a past member, perhaps a new member or a relative or friend of a new member.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I would like to see some threads set up, and moderated in such a manner that would put current members on "equal footing". This may involve allowing current members to initiate and moderate such threads. The way that many of the Forum threads are set up, we are asking current members to jump right into a shark tank with absolutely no protection. After all, who in their right mind would do that? I have more to say regarding this but it will have to wait for later today.

I wouldn't want the forum used to parrot LSM publications, but rather current LC attendees to step up and speak according to their conscience and convictions (i.e. not relying on what "the brother's say").

Originally Posted by UntoHim

First of all a hardy and heartfelt thanks to all who have participated on the Forum for the past year.

I'm opening up this thread for input and suggestions on how the Forum can be improved.

"Hardy" is what a plant is, that helps it to survive cold winters, heat and drought. "Hearty" is what kind of thanks we give; it means like 'unstinted'. Genuine and full.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

One would be to see some participation by current Local Church members. We all know the reasons why most are not participating. What I would like to see is for us to give them reasons TO participate.

Do current LC members have First Amendment rights now?

Nell

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Nell

Do current LC members have First Amendment rights now?

Nell

In the United States? Of course! However if they choose to exercise their freedom of speech, elders may and ask them to meet somewhere else. So there is an environment where your receiving is conditional; based on that you do not express concerns on matters, issues, or persons. That your speaking is positive and affirming and not rebuking or correcting.
Here is an environment where there is freedom to exercise speech within the guidelines of the forum. There's no expectation we need to agree with one another and in many cases, we do not.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

First of all a hardy and heartfelt thanks to all who have participated on the Forum for the past year.
I'm opening up this thread for input and suggestions on how the Forum can be improved.

Hey, I really liked that thread discussing "becoming one flesh" and "becoming one spirit" by 7715. Do you have any more threads like that?

I'm a member of the LC; however, not very active currently due to personal responsibilities. I'm hoping to be more active in the future when time permits.

I have been reading this forum for a while. I find much of what is on here very informative. Regarding our past history, I had no idea what was happening behind the scenes until I stumbled on this site. I grew up the in LC and was fed all the "good" side of the LC. So I do appreciate seeing the other side of things. I am not stumbled by all this, but saddened.

Back to the question asked in this thread: "how to get more current LC members to post?" I think this forum *mostly* caters to non-members, ex-members, or members thinking about leaving. Of course members part of DCP will always look around here as well as part of their project.

Most current positive LC members will be reluctant to post because they feel this is a very negative site towards their own group that they dearly hold to. Regardless how *right* you may be about LC and Witness Lee's negative past, it does not necessarily mean all the local LCs are bad. The Roman Catholic Church as a whole has a very sad and negative history; however, that doesn't meant all Catholic Churches locally are bad have abusive authorities. There are many LC church members just minding their own business, enjoying their church life, and do not feel they are being controlled by LSM as some of you claim. I think many may be offended by the content on this site, regardless how truthful it may be. if you would like more current LC members to participate, my suggestion is for the discussion here to be more balanced. It needs to be more sympathetic towards current members. I understand that you are attacking the "LC system" and leaders and not the people; however people still may perceive that they are being attacked. Why would someone want to participate in a forum that is hostile towards them? Anyways, just my 2 cents.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Current LC Member

If you would like more current LC members to participate, my suggestion is for the discussion here to be more balanced. It needs to be more sympathetic towards current members. I understand that you are attacking the "LC system" and leaders and not the people; however people still may perceive that they are being attacked. Why would someone want to participate in a forum that is hostile towards them? Anyways, just my 2 cents.

Current LC Member,
Thank you very much for your post!
Please consider registering, it will make participation a whole lot easier.

I hear what you are saying about "more balanced". The problem is that it's kind of a "catch 22" situation. The Forum will never seem balanced until some current members come and post! At various times I have posted an open invitation for current members to come and participate, and even become a moderator. This Forum was originally conceived as a venue for communication between current and former members and also the general public. It is very unfortunate that very few current LC members have chosen to take advantage of this forum.

We are very much aware that the Forum is being monitored by a number of Movement leaders, including those at the DCP. This is an OPEN FORUM and any of these brothers are more than welcome to come and register as a member and participate in the discussions. In fact I have sent emails to a number of LSM brothers inviting them to come participate in the Forum. I got ZERO response. Of course it doesn't help when certain LSM speakers discourage current LC members from even reading the Forum.

I will talk to the current Admin (Igzy) about posting another open invitation at the top of the page. He has some technical experience which may help in this matter.

Thanks again for posting and please consider registering and participating in the discussions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Current LC Member

I'm a member of the LC; however, not very active currently due to personal responsibilities. I'm hoping to be more active in the future when time permits.

I have been reading this forum for a while. I find much of what is on here very informative. Regarding our past history, I had no idea what was happening behind the scenes until I stumbled on this site. I grew up the in LC and was fed all the "good" side of the LC. So I do appreciate seeing the other side of things. I am not stumbled by all this, but saddened.

Back to the question asked in this thread: "how to get more current LC members to post?" I think this forum *mostly* caters to non-members, ex-members, or members thinking about leaving. Of course members part of DCP will always look around here as well as part of their project.

Most current positive LC members will be reluctant to post because they feel this is a very negative site towards their own group that they dearly hold to. Regardless how *right* you may be about LC and Witness Lee's negative past, it does not necessarily mean all the local LCs are bad. The Roman Catholic Church as a whole has a very sad and negative history; however, that doesn't meant all Catholic Churches locally are bad have abusive authorities. There are many LC church members just minding their own business, enjoying their church life, and do not feel they are being controlled by LSM as some of you claim. I think many may be offended by the content on this site, regardless how truthful it may be. if you would like more current LC members to participate, my suggestion is for the discussion here to be more balanced. It needs to be more sympathetic towards current members. I understand that you are attacking the "LC system" and leaders and not the people; however people still may perceive that they are being attacked. Why would someone want to participate in a forum that is hostile towards them? Anyways, just my 2 cents.

Current LC Member, what you say is true. From time to time, however, we have had current members post on the forum speaking of their positive experiences, and refuting those of us who speak "negatively."

I found these LC forums in 2005 as the split between the Great Lakes area and Anaheim became immanent. I stumbled across the old Bereans forum while researching Brethren history. The Lord gave me the desire to study their history because it so paralleled our own. I still believe that understanding John Darby and the 19th century Brethren is crucial to really knowing Witness Lee and the Recovery.

I left the LC due to the abuse of authority in the leadership of my LC where I had served for many years. Too many bad habits were learned from Titus Chu when it came to how full-timers treated the brothers. It was shortly after I stopped serving that I found on-line and read John Ingall's account of the so-called "rebellion" of the late 80's, and I finally learned what really happened. Eventually I discovered that ministry abuses were systemic to the Recovery.

Today I have many friends and family in the various factions which exist in the aftermath of the recent quarantines in the Great Lakes area. Columbus, where I once lived, now has 3 LC's. Most other cities in the region now have 2 LC's, one favorable to Anaheim and one to Cleveland. Some places, or perhaps individual brothers, have distanced themselves from both headquarters. I am not here to tell any brother where and how to pursue the Lord.

But, Current LC Member, perhaps you have not witnessed the tragedy of current Recovery leaders using obscure Christian teachings and principles of now deceased ministers to steal and kill and destroy brothers and sisters in the various LC's around me. When all the infighting, backbiting, and hypocrisy was going on, I had no choice but to examine, perhaps for the first time, all the various teachings and practices unique to us. That is why I started posting here.

Hi Ohio,

Trust me. I have witnessed enough. And I don't doubt what you've experienced I never gave you my whole background. I came from the Great Lakes area, so I know what I saw. I even experienced it some of it first-hand.

My post above does not indicate that there are no abusive authorities at all in the LC. But that in situations where there is no storm, many Local Churches are not as described here. Of course there are many members that feel abused, but there are many more members who have not experienced what you described. Again going back to the thread: if you want more current members to participate in this forum, then you also have to consider those who have never seen this side. How can you convince them when they feel you are attacking them?

You don't need to convince me. But I'm speaking about the rest. The person who started this thread mentioned that they would like more current LC members to participate. But what's in it for them, those who have no idea and no experience of all that is posted on the forum? That's my question. Unless, the goal is to attract more current LC member who are already on the verge leaving organization.

One more reason why current members may be hesitant to participate (other than the negativity toward the LC organization) is that this site may be seen as not "kosher" by the leaders and many other. Maybe their conscience bothers them when they read this site. This site doesn't bother me, but I can see how it may bother many. Again, I'm looking at things from point of the view of current LC members.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Current LC Member

. Again going back to the thread: if you want more current members to participate in this forum, then you also have to consider those who have never seen this side. How can you convince them when they feel you are attacking them?

But what's in it for them, those who have no idea and no experience of all that is posted on the forum? That's my question.

One more reason why current members may be hesitant to participate (other than the negativity toward the LC organization) is that this site may be seen as not "kosher" by the leaders and many other.

My question is: why wouldn't members have an idea of the history of the organization they are involved with? What's the big secret? Because it is purposely hidden by the coworkers and elders. It is covered up. They only want them to know the positive side of things. It's Pollyanna. When a church system cannot honestly tell both sides of their history that says a lot about them.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Current LC Member

My post above does not indicate that there are no abusive authorities at all in the LC. But that in situations where there is no storm, many Local Churches are not as described here. Of course there are many members that feel abused, but there are many more members who have not experienced what you described. Again going back to the thread: if you want more current members to participate in this forum, then you also have to consider those who have never seen this side. How can you convince them when they feel you are attacking them?

You don't need to convince me. But I'm speaking about the rest. The person who started this thread mentioned that they would like more current LC members to participate. But what's in it for them, those who have no idea and no experience of all that is posted on the forum? That's my question. Unless, the goal is to attract more current LC member who are already on the verge leaving organization.

Current LC member, the Recovery has lost much of its standing as a testimony of Jesus. This forum provides some recent history and unique insider insight into the events which caused this to occur. The information here will not be for those members who are content with an exclusive diet of WL's teachings, regurgitated by the Blendeds, whoever they are. Those however who have nagging questions about its vast claims and its broken promises, like I did, mind find some valuable help here.

One way to attract LC members is by providing a non-confrontational environment. We definitely don't all agree with everything, but do endeavor to treat one another with Christian civility and respect. We left an environment where expressing heart-felt opinions was outlawed, and consequently the leadership existed without healthy and scriptural boundaries. As a result, many were hurt, and many more have left. Here, perhaps for the first time, they can discuss the issues which have bothered them.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Current LC Member

Back to the question asked in this thread: "how to get more current LC members to post?" I think this forum *mostly* caters to non-members, ex-members, or members thinking about leaving. Of course members part of DCP will always look around here as well as part of their project.

Most current positive LC members will be reluctant to post because they feel this is a very negative site towards their own group that they dearly hold to. Regardless how *right* you may be about LC and Witness Lee's negative past, it does not necessarily mean all the local LCs are bad. The Roman Catholic Church as a whole has a very sad and negative history; however, that doesn't meant all Catholic Churches locally are bad have abusive authorities. There are many LC church members just minding their own business, enjoying their church life, and do not feel they are being controlled by LSM as some of you claim. I think many may be offended by the content on this site, regardless how truthful it may be. if you would like more current LC members to participate, my suggestion is for the discussion here to be more balanced. It needs to be more sympathetic towards current members. I understand that you are attacking the "LC system" and leaders and not the people; however people still may perceive that they are being attacked. Why would someone want to participate in a forum that is hostile towards them? Anyways, just my 2 cents.

I think part of the problem is being able to set aside subjective feelings and being able to absorb different writings (Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, Speaking the Truth in Love, Bill Mallon's letter to Witness Lee, John So's report, David Wang writing on the Church in Rosemead) objectively. To do so equates to attacking the recovery.
How can you examine the past and have it not be considered an attack?
If this question can be answered, then I think there will be away to engage current local church members in dialogue.

I want to offer a heartfelt response to this question, to unburden something the Lord Himself has given me to speak.

Untohim, I know what the intent of your ministry here is, and I know you see that your vision has not entirely been met here. I understand where your heart is, and I know that you are well aware of the mountain of resistance you face within the individuals still within the LRC to hearing anything people here - people who have left the LRC - have to say. You might say, it takes a genuine miracle of God to open the eyes and the stopped up ears of people still within the LRC. And that statement itself is not an exaggeration, it is in fact entirely accurate.

The problem here, I firmly believe, is that we are trying by reason to persuade men of the error of their ways. We are using human resources to try to overcome what is in reality a spiritual problem: That problem being deadend spiritual senses. The senses of these people have been dulled, have been put to sleep, and they have been taught to submit to a "spiritual authority" apart from the Holy Spirit. My friend, you are trying to wake the dead. Only God can do that.

Human words, even genuine testimonies, published novels and cold-hard rational facts and evidence won't accomplish what I know you truly desire: Revival. Fellowship. Cleansing. Freedom for those for whom you obviously love and care.

If you really want to grow this ministry - to make it the effective outreach you sense it must become - then you don't need to dress it up. You don't need to make it easier to navigate for the tech savvy. You need to open it up.

There is a story I'm sure most of us have heard - about how the bankers taught their employees to recognize counterfeit currency by locking them in a room for 10 days and letting them handle nothing but the genuine article. They taught their people to identify fakes not by letting them handle fakes, but by letting them handle the real deal so much that the fakes, when they did encounter them, were obvious.

People in the LRC think they are fat with "life" - but those of us who made it through know exactly what they've been eating - and they're starving. Untohim, they need to be fed. They think they've been feasting on the meat of the "high-peak gospel", but they need the pure milk of the Word. They need the REAL Gospel. They need to see Christ as He truly is, and when they do, they will listen. He will beckon His own, the real sheep will know His voice. Do you love Him, Untohim? Then feed His Sheep.

This Forum should not be just for members and ex-members. It should have within it a welcoming element of common fellowship to ALL members of the Body of Christ. It should reach out to and embrance Brothers and Sisters everywhere. Should it minister specifically to the people who are in and who have left the LRC? Certainly brother, that's your burden - the Lord Himself gave it to you. But it's focus ought to be on the Word of God, by the hearing of which all men may be saved.

If you open it up in such a way, then brothers and sisters in Christ who do not know anything about the LRC will become aware of it. That awareness is valuable, because it may be that the Lord will put it on the hearts of His people to pray for those caught within the LRC. It may be, that this awareness with innoculate the innocent who may be otherwise caught up in it, and it may be that those still within it will finally listen and understand that you are hear not to corrupt and defile them, but out of a genuine love for them. That you, that we, are nothing to fear - and that the Lord Jesus Christ is far bigger than they have ever been taught He was.

Pray about it, Untohim.


Peace brother,

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If you really want to grow this ministry - to make it the effective outreach you sense it must become - then you don't need to dress it up. You don't need to make it easier to navigate for the tech savvy. You need to open it up.

This Forum should not be just for members and ex-members. It should have within it a welcoming element of common fellowship to ALL members of the Body of Christ. It should reach out to and embrance Brothers and Sisters everywhere. Should it minister specifically to the people who are in and who have left the LRC? Certainly brother, that's your burden - the Lord Himself gave it to you. But it's focus ought to be on the Word of God, by the hearing of which all men may be saved.

If you open it up in such a way, then brothers and sisters in Christ who do not know anything about the LRC will become aware of it. That awareness is valuable, because it may be that the Lord will put it on the hearts of His people to pray for those caught within the LRC. It may be, that this awareness with innoculate the innocent who may be otherwise caught up in it, and it may be that those still within it will finally listen and understand that you are hear not to corrupt and defile them, but out of a genuine love for them. That you, that we, are nothing to fear - and that the Lord Jesus Christ is far bigger than they have ever been taught He was.

I concur. Our discussion is and should be about God's salvation in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, revealed in His word. Many of us have been through the Lord's Recovery churches and teachings, and our discussion often reflects that. But this forum could be bigger than "disaffected ex-members".

We are Christians first and foremost, and the discussion of our christian journeys should not be limited to that part of our journey which was unhealthily obsessed with the teachings of one man.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by aron

I concur. Our discussion is and should be about God's salvation in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, revealed in His word. Many of us have been through the Lord's Recovery churches and teachings, and our discussion often reflects that. But this forum could be bigger than "disaffected ex-members".

We are Christians first and foremost, and the discussion of our christian journeys should not be limited to that part of our journey which was unhealthily obsessed with the teachings of one man.

Generally I agree with this but think there are plenty of websites out there discussing God's salvation, etc. There are only a few discussing the good, the bad and the ugly of the LC to counter the lopsided LC cheerleaders who have populated the web with dozens if not hundreds of websites promoting their church, LSM and Witness Lee.

If anything IMHO the expansion of this website's reach could be to Christians leaving or having already left toxic unhealthy totalitarian churches of any sort who need help from those who have gone through the ringer and lived to tell the tale. BTW, that's a lot of people!

[aron]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Generally I agree with this but there are plenty of websites out there discussing God's salvation, etc. There are only a few discussing the good, the bad and the ugly of the LC to counter the lopsided LC cheerleaders who have populated the web with dozens if not hundreds of websites promoting their church, LSM and Witness Lee.

Regarding what I underlined: discussing "God's salvation, etc" in what context? Were 'christianity', if I may use the word loosely, doing a good job at discussing God's salvation in Jesus Christ, then there wouldn't be so many of us christians lured into traps like Lee's "recovery church" in the first place. If our collective misson is to highlight what is wrong with the Lee church teachings and practices, I would argue that this might be more successfully carried out if it was presented as part of a larger, more compelling narrative. If we can't find one, or one can't find us, then our discussions are relegated to the fringe of the fringe.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

If anything IMHO the expansion of this website's reach could be to Christians leaving or having already left toxic unhealthy totalitarian churches of any sort who need help from those who have gone through the ringer and lived to tell the tale. BTW, that's a lot of people!

The underlined part, again, is what I am after. What is the tale we are telling, after our trip thru the Recovery ringer? I assume it at least somewhat references Jesus Christ? My argument is that the stronger we highlight Jesus Christ, the more the counterfeit organization(s) are laid bare. To just focus on "what is wrong" ends up looking like a bunch of ex-employees griping about their former boss. You marginalize yourself, and reduce the utility of your discussion.

Just thinking aloud; my thoughts here obviously bearing no more weight than anyone else's.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

My argument is that the stronger we highlight Jesus Christ, the more the counterfeit organization(s) are laid bare. To just focus on "what is wrong" ends up looking like a bunch of ex-employees griping about their former boss. You marginalize yourself, and reduce the utility of your discussion...

This is why, for example, I found the idea of "hierarchy" in church settings so interesting: it highlighted the contrast between the teachings and example of Jesus (to be the greatest, be the least) with actual practices and teachings in our respective organizations, Lee's Recovery Church included.

To me it represented an actual learning moment which transcended "local church discussions".

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by aron

If our collective misson is to highlight what is wrong with the Lee church teachings and practices, I would argue that this might be more successfully carried out if it was presented as part of a larger, more compelling narrative.

For many escape from the LC or any other such church is a very compelling narrative and interestingly enough some would say a break from all things "spiritual" including talk about God was a necessary stepping stone. Within the context of their own life they had to discover the distinction between the true God who is actually interested in them and their life vs. the god of the group who requires sacrifice for the sake of the group at all costs while their own identities and personalities are rendered insignificant.

Originally Posted by aron

The underlined part, again, is what I am after. What is the tale we are telling, after our trip thru the Recovery ringer? I assume it at least somewhat references Jesus Christ? My argument is that the stronger we highlight Jesus Christ, the more the counterfeit organization(s) are laid bare. To just focus on "what is wrong" ends up looking like a bunch of ex-employees griping about their former boss. You marginalize yourself, and reduce the utility of your discussion.

Of course it references Jesus Christ but not as a mere reference or talking point but rather a person in relationship with the ex-member as an individual human being in the nitty gritty context of their real lives. If the LC taught us anything it's that quantity of talking about God does not equal a quality relationship with Him. May I suggest the leaving of any church like the LC is not just about discovering who God really is but also discovering your own humanity.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

Were 'christianity', if I may use the word loosely, doing a good job at discussing God's salvation in Jesus Christ, then there wouldn't be so many of us christians lured into traps like Lee's "recovery church" in the first place.

I understand what you are saying. But at some level I am not sure that there is not a propensity for certain people to be more easily attracted to certain kinds of things, and others to other kinds of things. And sometimes, it is the fact that it is "different" that is the attraction. For the "seeking" Christian, anything that is not where I am might be attractive. And the more different from what I have seen before the greater the attraction.

Acknowledging that there are those whose sojourn in the LRC was by birth, or because they were with their spouse/family, most of us were looking for something more meaningful than what we were getting at the time in our various places. And, like I mentioned earlier, if you managed to come in contact with the LRC, there was an appeal due to the community. So if you didn't hear anything too radical too quickly, you got desensitized to the extremes in stages — like the frog in the kettle.

And while I do not simply say that the appealing things were wrong (they certainly were not for the most part), our propensity now is too often to use our experience with the LRC as a benchmark for anything Christian. After much consideration of the erroneous teachings, and the ways that even the culture allowed things to go awry, I am quite done with the LRC experience benchmark.

The feelings do not change the facts (a line from a supplement song). The song's follow-on was always "Jesus is Lord of all." And that is true. But the feelings also do not make things right. The camaraderie of the community does not overcome the poisonous teachings against our Christian brothers and sisters.

And if you can find the camaraderie and "feeling" in a wholesome environment, that is great. But that is not the goal of Christian fellowship. Or of the church. It is the propagation of the gospel and the building up of the believers. And the building up of the believers is not just church stuff. Or "spiritual" stuff. It is the change in lives in the "marketplace" — the mall, neighborhood, parks, at work, etc. And the change in lives is not exuberance. Or a lot of "calling on the Lord" — although that can happen. It surely is not in learning better and better teachings while using a more and more bizarre lexicon.

On the whole, a fairly sizable group of good Christians have been tricked into giving their lives to propagate a ministry. To defend separation from other Christians — and the denigration of those Christians.

One of our former participants here is still enamored with what he learned from "The Experience of Life." But if it does not change anything but our religious experience, I don't think it is the "life that is really life." That life changes everything, not just spiritual stuff. It doesn't just affect our worship and meetings. It affects our interaction with everyone. Even the heathen.

And if the fruit that James talks of is not found, it is not true faith or belief. And despite Lee's claims otherwise, I believe that reading Paul actually comes to the same conclusion — just in a different way.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The problem here, I firmly believe, is that we are trying by reason to persuade men of the error of their ways. We are using human resources to try to overcome what is in reality a spiritual problem: That problem being deadend spiritual senses. The senses of these people have been dulled, have been put to sleep, and they have been taught to submit to a "spiritual authority" apart from the Holy Spirit. My friend, you are trying to wake the dead. Only God can do that.

Let me start by saying that it is true that only God can wake the dead. Only God can open the eyes of our hearts.

But He does not generally do it directly. There are ways that He works through circumstances and through our words and deeds. I may get chastised a little for this, but when it says that the Word does not return void, I believe that there is some requirement that it actually be the Word, and not just some words that happen to be arranged in the same order as those found in scripture. If they are intentionally read wrong, misinterpreted, etc., then what is being taken in is not actually the Word.

I do not suppose that my feeble attempts at pointing to what I think is correct interpretation or reading makes it into the Word. But I do believe that if we do not speak, then only the "dumb idol" version of the words will be found in some cases. But if we speak concerning what is really there, then the words can become Word within the reader/listener. Given the number of times that I have seen die-hard LRC members scoff at the obvious and return with absolutely ridiculous readings of scripture, I do not presume that it is simply a matter of logic and intelligence. It still takes God. But, like the poor bankrupt guy who couldn't believe that God wouldn't let him win the lottery to pay off his bills, sometimes we have to cooperate and "buy a ticket." In this case, speak up. Put the sound arguments in front of them. Give the Spirit more than a miracle to work with.

Besides, scripture is not just some illogical thing that is only known in the "spirit." It speaks, even calls us to come together and reason. I realize that this was not a general statement about scripture, but I believe it is applicable. And Paul was not adverse to logic. Using examples and metaphors requires some level of logic to make a leap from picture to what is the intended meaning.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

People in the LRC think they are fat with "life" - but those of us who made it through know exactly what they've been eating - and they're starving. Untohim, they need to be fed. They think they've been feasting on the meat of the "high-peak gospel", but they need the pure milk of the Word. They need the REAL Gospel. They need to see Christ as He truly is, and when they do, they will listen. He will beckon His own, the real sheep will know His voice. Do you love Him, Untohim? Then feed His Sheep.

And at least one of the BBs openly said this in my presence many years ago (that would be in the early 80s). "We've built great fences, but the sheep are starving" (or something like that). I doubt he would say that now due to the judgment that would put on him.

But suggesting that this should just be another fellowship board is not the answer. It might bring a few more out to learn that we are not as bankrupt as they have been taught. Or will it. They will find a bunch of people who have varying progressing levels of tolerance for what the LRC teaches is "poor, poor Christianity," and even the "Whore of Babylon and her harlot daughters."

No, the only ones coming out here are coming to either combat the "evil" being said against the LRC, or those who want to learn more about what is wrong with it. Just feeding them is what the LRC has supposedly been doing. Or what they can/should be getting from intentional fellowship with people that they can actually see and speak with. Life is not just fellowship and "eating Jesus." It is living a normal life. It is also a mutual life with other Christians. It is not all of either. And every time Christians are together in some form is not necessarily a "meeting" in the sense of "church." It can be for other purposes without lowering our status as believers.

There is a time to laugh. A time to cry. A time for fellowship. A time for doctrine. A time for love and worship. A time for logic and reason.

And this forum is somewhat heavily for the last of these. Meetings of the church (in whatever form) are generally not. Neither is the time for "sweet fellowship."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The problem here, I firmly believe, is that we are trying by reason to persuade men of the error of their ways. We are using human resources to try to overcome what is in reality a spiritual problem: That problem being deadened spiritual senses. The senses of these people have been dulled, have been put to sleep, and they have been taught to submit to a "spiritual authority" apart from the Holy Spirit. My friend, you are trying to wake the dead. Only God can do that.

For years I wondered why things were not as we had been promised. I had nagging questions about whether we really were God's unique testimony on earth. If all that we were told was true, then why did we become so barren and stagnant? Is this the best God could do? And why did the leadership tend to destroy those who were doing well? Why so many storms and unexplained conflicts? Why? Why? Why?

Perhaps the initial work of the Holy Spirit within was to cause me to question all that I assumed to be true. I knew the Recovery had issues, but where I could I find answers? Had anyone ever left the Recovery without being judged by God? I needed to talk with someone who had successfully exited without being so "negative" that all my defenses engaged upon impact.

I definitely was not alone. The quarantine of Titus Chu seemed to awaken hundreds from varying degrees of slumber. People needed information. People needed to talk ... or listen to others talk. That's where this forum became so useful.

But for those, as you say, who are sleeping peacefully in the LC's, and do not have an "inner nag" bothering them, I have no delusions that a million forums would affect them. They have been successfully "inoculated" as they say, and if their spiritual needs are being met, then I am truly happy for them. There's no such thing as a perfect church; many are far worse than the Recovery; and some of the LC's are actually quite decent, as I have been told.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But for those, as you say, who are sleeping peacefully in the LC's, and do not have an "inner nag" bothering them, I have no delusions that a million forums would affect them. They have been successfully "inoculated" as they say, and if their spiritual needs are being met, then I am truly happy for them. There's no such thing as a perfect church; many are far worse than the Recovery; and some of the LC's are actually quite decent, as I have been told.

Thank you for your post, Ohio. I really appreciate your perspective on things. I like your balanced point-of-views on the LCs.

It is very true. There are many issues with the LCs as a whole under the LSM organization; however they are definitely not the worst church to join out there. Also some of the LCs individually are pretty good if the leadership within that church does not impose or over-promote LSM's conferences, trainings, etc...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Thank you for your post, Ohio. I really appreciate your perspective on things. I like your balanced point-of-views on the LCs.

It is very true. There are many issues with the LCs as a whole under the LSM organization; however they are definitely not the worst church to join out there. Also some of the LCs individually are pretty good if the leadership within that church does not impose or over-promote LSM's conferences, trainings, etc...

And I appreciate your perspective too. Not many can remain in the LC's with such candid honesty.

In my final years in the Recovery, I became uninterested in traveling to conferences in Anaheim or Cleveland. The ministry in Anaheim became quite tasteless, and the ministry in Cleveland became increasingly intolerable. I became more and more "local" in my churchlife service, seeing outside influences as more disruptive to the saints' walk. Receiving ministries from Anaheim or Cleveland were like two steps forward, and three steps backward.

When I was still serving in the LC, I would take my turn preparing to share to the church, which I really treasured and took seriously. The materials would always be the reviews of messages given in Cleveland or Anaheim HWFMR. I would struggle for days trying to find the anointing in those materials. Finally I would just go to the scriptures and the anointing inspiration would come.

Eventually the abusive ways in the Recovery had come home ... again. I fell victim more than once. Never could I obtain so much as an apology! I also saw others getting their share of abuse. My home church was no more a sanctuary, so I needed to leave, otherwise I, like you, might still have remained.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But for those, as you say, who are sleeping peacefully in the LC's, and do not have an "inner nag" bothering them, I have no delusions that a million forums would affect them. They have been successfully "inoculated" as they say, and if their spiritual needs are being met, then I am truly happy for them. There's no such thing as a perfect church; many are far worse than the Recovery; and some of the LC's are actually quite decent, as I have been told.

I remember going to my mom's Catholic church about ten years ago. I was amazed to sense the presence of God there, right amongst the robes and candles and the liturgy of the Eucharist, and despite their checkered history. My sense then was that God is not bothered by strange trappings or bad history, but rather is intensely interested in hearts seeking to worship and serve him. And those were there.

So why shouldn't some LRCs, despite their checkered history and odd beliefs, experience a God who is faithful to be in the midst of those meeting in His name?

Despite our being taught to be wary of "systems," God knows that human beings gravitate toward them. Tell me of one church movement that is not in some way systematized. And if it isn't now, it will be. "Systems" were among those boogy-men we were taught to avoid. And, of course, the LRC, loathing systems, had no other choice than to deny being one, since avoiding becoming one was not an option.

[coalsoffire]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I remember going to my mom's Catholic church about ten years ago. I was amazed to sense the presence of God there, right amongst the robes and candles and the liturgy of the Eucharist, and despite their checkered history. My sense then was that God is not bothered by strange trappings or bad history, but rather is intensely interested in hearts seeking to worship and serve him. And those were there.

So why shouldn't some LRCs, despite their checkered history and odd beliefs, experience a God who is faithful to be in the midst of those meeting in His name?

Despite our being taught to be wary of "systems," God knows that human beings gravitate toward them. Tell me of one church movement that is not in some way systematized. And if it isn't now, it will be. "Systems" were among those boogy-men we were taught to avoid. And, of course, the LRC, loathing systems, had no other choice than to deny being one, since avoiding becoming one was not an option.

Awesome post! Amen!

I remember reading an introductory Buddhist book & realizing: My! Buddhism is just as systematized as Christianity! And later readings showed the misogyny of Buddhism as well. Hence my appreciation of Leonard Cohen's quote below. A quote, I might add, worthy of "pray-reading"!

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But for those, as you say, who are sleeping peacefully in the LC's, and do not have an "inner nag" bothering them, I have no delusions that a million forums would affect them. They have been successfully "inoculated" as they say, and if their spiritual needs are being met, then I am truly happy for them. There's no such thing as a perfect church; many are far worse than the Recovery; and some of the LC's are actually quite decent, as I have been told.

I have lived in both Cleveland and Anaheim. In both I have seen the "true believers (in the LC)" and the "true believers(in finding Christ)."

There are many I know, even neck deep in "LSM churches" who approach their faith quite simply. Enjoyment of Christ is not just a "pill" to eat - but an engagement with their savior in their life. The "church life" is not just "speaking the same thing" etc... but rather a mutual concern over the lives of their brothers and sisters. Sure, they are exposed to the arguments around "leadership" and "oneness" and "dissenting ones." But they keep doing what they were doing before the argument arose. Seeking to find CHrist in their lives and caring for those around them.

I will add that these ones I speak of are either 1) second generation who lost their faith, but then regained it through trevail; 2) first generation who found a way of living that completely awakened them in contrast to their former life.

I do not know many second generation who haven't had a crisis of faith - wherein they had to choose their faith - who are simple in this way. Most who persist in their faith simply based on upbringing generally care very much about the "elitist" type doctrines. I was guilty of this for many years. These seem to be the most zealous ones.

This is, of course, a very broad observation - but its borne out at least in this limited experience.

Point is, if people genuinely engage with God, it may not lead them out of a flawed situation - they might just find God right there in all His multifarious wisdom and varied grace.

My great uncle was a Lutheran scholar. He once explained that he knew all the ways in which the Lutheran church was not aligned with Scripture. He would write and speak to discuss these matters. But he couldn't leave. Because that's where, he said, God wanted Him.

None of this is to say that we don't speak out concerning error or abuse. You speak it out, but perhaps judgement is for Someone else.

Just some scattered thoughts...

Thanks all for these posts. Very encouraging.

Peter

[Truth]

Thanks for your post, Peter. I feel the same way. Sometimes finding Christ may not mean the same thing as finding another 'church'. The Lord may want us to stay where we are, in a degraded church life, and find Christ there and minister Christ to others there. There is no perfect church. We could be church-hopping forever and never find Christ. However, that is not to say that we should not seek to find another church if the Lord leads us to do so. Bottomline is we need to remember to find Christ wherever we are and meet with the church wherever the Lord leads. But the Lord may or may not lead us to the church of our choice.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Sometimes finding Christ may not mean the same thing as finding another 'church'. The Lord may want us to stay where we are, in a degraded church life, and find Christ there and minister Christ to others there. There is no perfect church. We could be church-hopping forever and never find Christ.

It is simply dishonest and unfair to categorize every member in the LC's as mindless robots following the ministry like "lemmings over the cliff." (Fortunately for us, the more dogmatic forum posters have recently gone into remission.) Generalizations are like prejudices -- they pick the worst traits of a few, and then label the whole. God is not like that. He does not look on the outward, but on the heart.

When I entered the Recovery during the 70's, there was a continual cry to "come out of her My people," based on a prophetic verse concerning Babylon. At the time, it made so much sense that all of Christianity was fallen and degraded Babylon, and only the Recovery was the true testimony of the Lord. Much of the prideful arrogance that gets exhibited in the Recovery is rooted in that cry. Personally, as I entered the Recovery, I voiced nothing but contempt for the rest of the body of Christ.

Oh how things have changed. Witness Lee never had the absolute manifest godliness and lockup on the truth that he always led us to believe. Fact is the Recovery has at least as many problems as the rest of the body of Christ, maybe more. The expressly claimed exclusiveness of God's blessing and presence was nothing more than a myth. Yes, His Spirit was often with us, but He was also with all the other congregations too -- those dreaded denominations and despised free groups.

It's amazing to think back on how that exhortation in Revelation 18.4 affected me, and not for the better. How could I condemn all the systems in Christianity and not condemn the Christians too? Witness Lee (as John Darby before him) definitely used that verse for personal gain. That teaching was so unbalanced. Perhaps I was just worse than the other brothers around me. I can never forget the time after my first Revelation Training in Anaheim that I was talking to my dear mother about destroying her idols -- eventually the brother with me started kicking me under the table to stop it.

Why did we not take our cue from all the other churches in the New Testament? They all had their problems. None was perfect. Think about what was going on in Corinth! Yet the Apostles only exhorted the believers to overcome the difficulties and not to completely forsake those churches. The answers to their problems did not lie in the severity of God to forsake them, but in His love to shepherd them to greener pastures.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The problem here, I firmly believe, is that we are trying by reason to persuade men of the error of their ways. We are using human resources to try to overcome what is in reality a spiritual problem: That problem being deadend spiritual senses. The senses of these people have been dulled, have been put to sleep, and they have been taught to submit to a "spiritual authority" apart from the Holy Spirit. My friend, you are trying to wake the dead. Only God can do that.

Human words, even genuine testimonies, published novels and cold-hard rational facts and evidence won't accomplish what I know you truly desire: Revival. Fellowship. Cleansing. Freedom for those for whom you obviously love and care.

Thanks for your input.

Though I agree with some of the things you said, I'm not sure how you can know what I highlighted above is true. How do you know we are only using "human resources?" (You seem imply that's all we are using.) You are free to speak for yourself, but how can you speak for others on this matter?

I agree that trying to spiritually enlighten without God's help is doomed to fail. But I disagree that what we are doing here is without God's help, or that it is in any way a failure.

There was a time on these forums that I felt everyone was talking and no one was praying. A lot got said (and yelled) and not much changed. I don't think that any more. For one, I'm praying a lot more.

The issue is not "human tools" versus "spiritual things." The issue or question is, has the tool--website, iPhone app, written words, skilled argumentation, gospel campaign, or whatever-- been prayed over. So whether tools like this forum or other modern devices are spiritually useful depends on the spiritual attitude of those utilizing them in ministry. But all else being equal, a good website is better than a bad one. Surely only God can wake the dead. But God can use the tools we make to do so, and the condition of those tools does matter.

But I will say this: If we all prayed two words for every one word we typed we'd see better results. If that sums up what you were saying then I wholeheartedly agree.