An Outsider's Story

Greetings brothers and sisters.

I found this site a couple weeks ago and was intrigued by what I saw. As the title of my thread may imply, I am not a member of the so called Lord's Recovery. So why am I here? Well sit back and relax and I'll tell you.

A few years ago, I had no idea this movement even existed. I grew up in what they would call the "apostate denominational churches" in the Recovery. I was perfectly content with how things were until a girl came and rocked my world...

As you might've guessed, this girl was a member of the Lord's Recovery. Now typically, this wouldn't have mattered to me except for one thing: this girl became my girlfriend. A few months into the relationship, I asked her what church she went to since I had never asked before then (I had known she was a Christian before we started going out and whatnot) to which she replied "the Church in *I won't say where to preserve the anonymity of this post*" Upon a quick google search of this place, the Lord's Recovery was introduced into my life.

I didn't think much of it at first, since after seeing their website nothing popped out as weird except for the term Lord's Recovery. I asked her about it a few times, but I guess she gave all the "right answers" as I continued to not really think anything of this place. However, months later, I looked up the Recovery version of the Bible out of curiosity. It was then that I first saw the lengthy Witness Lee footnotes that you are all familiar with. The particular preview that I saw was from Genesis 1:1. I was amused by the fact that there was 1 or 2 verses on the page followed by paragraphs upon paragraphs of footnotes. I had been told that her Bible had footnotes prior to this, however I had assumed it would've been like the footnotes in any other Bible I've seen, just a few notes here and there. While I joked with her about the amount of footnotes there were, I looked at some other parts in the New Testament and was, of course, treated to the same thing. I asked her if she read all of these footnotes to which she replied that it wasn't "necessary" to but it was helpful in the explanation of certain parts. Made perfect sense to me, so I proceeded to read some in the next few weeks. However I was more confused by these footnotes than enlightened.

Fast forward to the summer before we started college. We happened to choose the same college and I asked her if she wanted to join one of the campus ministries on campus that a few people from my church had told me about. She was pretty adamant about going to the Christians on Campus "branch" of her church. This, naturally, disappointed me greatly. By this point I had grown to care very much about her, and it always bugged me that we had never been to church together. We had talked about it every now and then, and I figured college would be the perfect opportunity to do so. Thus, her persistent stance on joining Christians on Campus stung even more.

By now, I had read many bad things about the Lord's Recovery, even being told by my youth pastor that it was a heretical church based upon their modalistic teachings. Not wanting to condemn based on the words of people who might not necessarily know what they were talking about (and partly based on my girlfriend's exclamations that people on the internet were simply seeking/were instruments of Satan to smash her church) I decided to go to a meeting the 2nd week of school. What I saw there fit most descriptions of what I had read up until that point. There was sing-reading, pray-reading, many exclamations of "Oh Lord Jesus!" and loud "Amens" and "Lord Jesus", exclusive usage of the Recovery version (which wasn't even being used in this particular meeting) and what I call the Witness Lee Hymnal, and all sorts of things that I should not have to describe to you. I recall one hymn we sang which contained something along the lines of "Jesus transfigured into the Holy Spirit" which sprung my mental modalist warning system. It seemed as though everything I had read was right.

My girlfriend perhaps sensed that I had a negative view of her church and gave me the silent treatment for awhile. Not wanting to upset her, I agreed to go to a larger college meeting or outing or something with members of Christians on Campus from several other colleges. However, it was more of the same. While I convinced her that it wasn't as bad as I had thought before, the thought that she was in a "misguided" church gnawed at my heart for months afterwards.

Since then the differences between our churches has grown more and more apparent. She has always been taught that people who are in denominational churches (which I don't happen to be, but it's really all the same to them regardless) are dividing the church and whatnot. However, when I brought her to the All Campus Worship event to which nearly every single campus ministry was represented and acknowledged (except, of course, for hers). This bothered her greatly. For all the preaching of oneness and unity, why was it that her church did not go to this ALL CAMPUS worship event? After all, it was the perfect opportunity to display the oneness of all believers in Christ. There are more differences that I could mention, but I feel like I don't really have to here.

This leads me to why I am posting here. What should I do? I know a lot of you have some pretty strong views on Witness Lee and the local church and whatnot, but naturally (and for some personal reasons which I can't really disclose) I can't ask her to just leave and join me. In fact, she'll probably be unable to leave even if she wanted to until after we've graduated. I'm not asking for some way to "convert" her or anything, just for a way that we can grow together in Christ like we've wanted to do this whole time. I know there are some good aspects of the local church (such as a communal, family like lifestyle) that many churches can stand to learn from, but it seems in this case, the bad outweighs the good.

Many thanks and God bless.

[ZNPaaneah]

Welcome and thanks for your testimony.

As for your friend I would refer you to the Lord's word in Matthew 17:21: "Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."

[OBW]

You’ve asked for a rather large order of opinion. And while I will try to give some help, know that this is far from complete. And as much as I think I know what to do, it is not necessarily the best advice.

First, the claims of heresy are a little overstated. Yet they are not entirely wrong either. The problem is that Lee taught a complete version of Three and One, but was almost completely focused on the One. But instead of just saying “God,” he took on the terminology/names of the Three to talk about the One. I view it as speaking of the Trinity, and appreciating the Three, sort of, but basically ignoring it and turning it all back into just One. And God is One God. But to talk about the One God in the terms of the Three is to obliterate the reason that God revealed himself as three.

Totally unsatisfying as an answer on that issue. Just suffice it to say that the reality of it is probably a small-h heresy but not a capital-H Heresy.

The problem with a relationship as you are proposing is that as long as she remains committed to the LRC (“Lords Recovery Church” as we often call it, or “Local Church” as they often call it) is that the leadership will put pressure on her to not continue the relationship. There has been some exposure of their direct attacks on dating that they don’t like, so I would not be surprised that they would downplay it a little. But it will never be gone unless they already consider her “marginal.”

But even the marginal stick around. The most insidious thing about the LRC is that there are so many teachings that create a sense of spiritual superiority just for being there, and a fear of displeasing God if they leave, that they are often sort of hamstrung in their ability to consider leaving. Many will simply stick around on the periphery, only occasionally attending meetings. But they will never leave and never attend another place — unless they have their eyes opened to the falsehoods of the claims of superiority. And that is difficult because they warn against even reading negative things about the LRC.

The landscape is strewn with divorces because one wanted to remain in the LRC and the other did not. The divorce is all too often instigated by the one remaining for the purpose of not being “unequally yoked” or some other thing.

What I am saying is that unless she is showing signs of being willing to actually discuss these issues and reconsider her position, you are stepping into a relationship that will make the marriage of James Carville (Democratic strategist bulldog) and Mary Matalin (Republican strategist bulldog) seem like Snow White and Prince Charming. Or if you are willing to ignore the problems with the LRC and go her way. Otherwise, it might be better to be heartbroken for a while and look elsewhere.

I know. A hard word. But it is a little like a white woman deciding to marry a black man in 19th century Alabama. Shouldn’t be a problem. But in that time, it would be. I would bet (not prophesy) that if you continue with her and do not eventually start going her way, you will not continue with her for long. Sad. But I could be proved wrong.

[OBW]

And while ZNP's response is sort of treating the LRC like a demon, he is not that "over the top" in saying it.

OBW thank you for your reply.

Over the past couple years I have learned a lot about the local church and I would tend to agree that their Trinitarian teachings are more focused on the One rather than the Three rather than full on modalism.

As for her being committed to the LRC, I perhaps did not clarify enough in my initial post. It's easy to miss things while you're typing a long testimony after all. She is and has been willing to discuss and reconsider differences between our churches. I will use perhaps a lame example, but one nonetheless. She had long held the thought that Christian worship bands were bad (I don't remember the exact term she used, although it could have been distracting or divisive) because they made people focus on the music rather than worshiping God while hymns strictly promoted worship. After I showed her many songs by various artists (Chris Tomlin and Hillsong to name a few) she did change her mind on the issue. While it is somewhat of a small issue being only music, it does show a willingness to change opinions.

As for the pressure to discontinue the relationship, we've encountered this since coming to college. She, obviously, has not "heeded their warnings" and whatnot. I don't know what being considered marginal means, but judging by her current position within the Christians on Campus RSO (registered student organization, that is, the church is an official school club in which she has an officer position) I'd say that no one considers her marginal.

Regarding the sense of spiritual superiority, I definitely saw signs of that early on in the relationship, however, after past talks, I'd say her sense of superiority has been, at the very least, shaken. I don't consider myself some sort of spiritual role model by any means, but it's clear that she believes me to be every bit as Christian as members of the LRC. I think it is this belief that weakens the sense of superiority over other churches/Christians. Nonetheless, she will not leave the LRC for the next few years at least, more so due to the aforementioned personal issues, than out of pure dedication (although dedication is also a reason).

I do wish to show her some fallacies perhaps regarding the teachings of Witness Lee or those since he died. My biggest beef with the LRC has always been their insistence on the use of LSM (aka Witness Lee) reading materials (the HWfMW was the text used in the first meeting I attended), hymnals and otherwise (not the hymnal itself, but rather the fact that its contents were written by Witness Lee), and the amount of importance on which they give the footnotes in the RcV. I'm sure many of you could go on for days about the inconsistencies and false teachings within the LRC, which is why I came here.

Ultimately, I think the solution to the "problem" will come when she is presented with the facts about the LRC. I don't want to put it as a "me vs them" kind of situation or decision, or as a "I'm right and you're wrong" type of thing. These kinds of arguments would only lead to a circular argument and ultimately nothing would be gained, but much would be lost.

As a side question, how have you all managed after leaving the LRC? Do any of you attend "mainstream" churches or do you stick with private, home based affairs? And how has the shift affected you? I pray that none of you are in a sort of "spiritual limbo" or anything like that, but how was the transition out of the "church life"?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

The problem with a relationship as you are proposing is that as long as she remains committed to the LRC (“Lords Recovery Church” as we often call it, or “Local Church” as they often call it) is that the leadership will put pressure on her to not continue the relationship. There has been some exposure of their direct attacks on dating that they don’t like, so I would not be surprised that they would downplay it a little. But it will never be gone unless they already consider her “marginal.”

But even the marginal stick around. The most insidious thing about the LRC is that there are so many teachings that create a sense of spiritual superiority just for being there, and a fear of displeasing God if they leave, that they are often sort of hamstrung in their ability to consider leaving. Many will simply stick around on the periphery, only occasionally attending meetings. But they will never leave and never attend another place — unless they have their eyes opened to the falsehoods of the claims of superiority. And that is difficult because they warn against even reading negative things about the LRC.

Up to a certain point I agree with OBW. A sister as the unregistered brother posted on, how deep is her commitment? Is the church in xxxxx the assembly she was brought up and goes because that's her Christian environment or is she one who has already intended/planned to attend FTTA following college?
I've seen sisters raised in the local churches who married brothers from outside the local churches. Key from my perspective was commitment to the relationship first or commitment to the churchlife first? Whichever the case, it is a human reaction for her to be defensive about the assembly she meets with. Same can be said where you meet or where I meet. It's not denominational, but in the local churches it is received as denominational.

Guess what I'm getting after is where is the time commitment? If it's the local church functions (college age meetings, college age prayer meetings, conferences, trainings, etc), the ministry Living Stream Ministry publishes, etc that is her commitment, in my honest opinion a relationship would only work with one also in a likeminded commitment.
If the time commitment is to the relationship first and local church functions second, there is hope. There is hope for a relationship and a fellowship based on being a brother and sister in Christ.

Originally Posted by Terry

Up to a certain point I agree with OBW. A sister as the unregistered brother posted on, how deep is her commitment? Is the church in xxxxx the assembly she was brought up and goes because that's her Christian environment or is she one who has already intended/planned to attend FTTA following college?
I've seen sisters raised in the local churches who married brothers from outside the local churches. Key from my perspective was commitment to the relationship first or commitment to the churchlife first? Whichever the case, it is a human reaction for her to be defensive about the assembly she meets with. Same can be said where you meet or where I meet. It's not denominational, but in the local churches it is received as denominational.

Guess what I'm getting after is where is the time commitment? If it's the local church functions (college age meetings, college age prayer meetings, conferences, trainings, etc), the ministry Living Stream Ministry publishes, etc that is her commitment, in my honest opinion a relationship would only work with one also in a likeminded commitment.
If the time commitment is to the relationship first and local church functions second, there is hope. There is hope for a relationship and a fellowship based on being a brother and sister in Christ.

Thanks for your reply Terry. You hit on several key points which I think show why it is possible to keep this relationship going. She attends LRC meetings because it is what she has grown up with. It's all she knows and probably all she would have known if I had not come along and showed her the other side of things. While she does attend many of the functions you mentioned (in fact, she is currently at the summer college training as I write this) she does so mostly out of necessity. That is, she goes because she is expected to go. Her parents also grew up in the local church (or at least her dad did) overseas and as such, there are deep roots and connections to the local church for her. While she has made it clear that she would rather be spending time with me instead of going to meetings, trainings, BFA distributions, etc (not always, but sometimes), it would put her in a bad situation with her parents having to explain why she was not attending these things. I must also add that her parents don't really approve of me as a boyfriend either (I think it's just because they don't like me for becoming her boyfriend before an "appropriate" age moreso than the LRC views on relationships, although that may also be a part of it) so saying that she's not at things because of me would not be very good for us at all.

I have seen a very large window of hope for us in spite of the issues swirling around us. However, I feel as though we will only grow in our relationship as God intends for us if we settle the differences between the LRC and other churches. Even within the Christians on Campus group there are those who are marrying outside of the LRC (or at least I do not think that their spouses were raised in the LRC like they were) so I know she is not unfamiliar with that happening around her.

[Cal]

It's interesting that she's seeking an intimate relationship outside the LRC. This probably shows either she's not that committed, or she really wants a relationship and is not happy with the choices she has inside her group. The first is good for you; the second isn't.

Hopefully, she is not one of those women who thinks they can catch a husband and then change him. Lord help you (whether she's in the LRC or not) if she's that kind. Run and don't look back if she is, IMHO.

The fact is couples need to have a similar religious outlooks to have a happy life. Religious differences just create more problems. If both of you can look past your differences, then both of you can attend the same church, if you catch my meaning. But as far as the LRC goes, it isn't enough to attend, you have to be fully committed.

I would just ask her point blank, "If you knew I would never join your church, would you still be interested in me?" See what she says.

You are both young and you can revert to just being friends for awhile if that's what it takes.

Also, pray about it. Ask the Lord to work it out. He will.

Best wishes.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The fact is couples need to have a similar religious outlooks to have a happy life. Religious differences just create more problems.

An additional comment here ... based on my own personal experience ... which has tasted the bitterness of too many failures.

LSM provides a regular dose of "judgmentalism" in their ministry. Their more earnest members are well trained to be critical of "all things Christian," and this sad feature unfortunately translates into marriage life. By its very design by the Creator, marriage is endless compromise in every area of life. When spouses become judgmental and uncompromising, feelings of love can rapidly deteriorate. Few 21st century marriages can survive such an environment. Personally, I never found peace within marriage until we left that ministry of condemnation.

An LC girl I know met her husband-to-be in a bar, while she was in a spiritual slump. They got married and then she decided to get spiritually healthy again. Where did she want to go, having returned to Christ? Why, the church in so-and-so, of course. Poor dude. He didn't know what hit him. Some people only have to deal with marrying into a difficult set of in-laws. This guy got that and more...a truckload of beliefs and practices, a sectarian network of churches, and a world of weird. Last time I saw him, he was loading a U-Haul, having been caught up in a wife-led expedition to "the Lord's move to _______________." Reminded me of a Venus flytrap scenario.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Mordecai

An LC girl I know met her husband-to-be in a bar, while she was in a spiritual slump. They got married and then she decided to get spiritually healthy again. Where did she want to go, having returned to Christ? Why, the church in so-and-so, of course. Poor dude. He didn't know what hit him. Some people only have to deal with marrying into a difficult set of in-laws. This guy got that and more...a truckload of beliefs and practices, a sectarian network of churches, and a world of weird. Last time I saw him, he was loading a U-Haul, having been caught up in a wife-led expedition to "the Lord's move to _______________." Reminded me of a Venus flytrap scenario.

This would make a good premise for a TV series, or at least a mini-series! LOL Not sure if it would be a comedy, a drama, or a thriller!

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Terry

Up to a certain point I agree with OBW. A sister as the unregistered brother posted on, how deep is her commitment? Is the church in xxxxx the assembly she was brought up and goes because that's her Christian environment or is she one who has already intended/planned to attend FTTA following college?
I've seen sisters raised in the local churches who married brothers from outside the local churches. Key from my perspective was commitment to the relationship first or commitment to the churchlife first? Whichever the case, it is a human reaction for her to be defensive about the assembly she meets with. Same can be said where you meet or where I meet. It's not denominational, but in the local churches it is received as denominational.

Guess what I'm getting after is where is the time commitment? If it's the local church functions (college age meetings, college age prayer meetings, conferences, trainings, etc), the ministry Living Stream Ministry publishes, etc that is her commitment, in my honest opinion a relationship would only work with one also in a likeminded commitment.
If the time commitment is to the relationship first and local church functions second, there is hope. There is hope for a relationship and a fellowship based on being a brother and sister in Christ.

I guess I partially touched on her commitment in my above post. Concerning her time commitment, it's mostly to me, but she attends all these functions anyway out of necessity. Her parents are close to some of the elders (maybe not close, but they have contact with and will most likely not hesitate to do so if she were to not attend several events) and as such, finding out that she was not going to these events (especially because of me) would not go so well. That said, she still enjoys going to most of these things regardless of whether or not I agree with them. So I guess the semi complicated answer is that she's committed to them out of necessity, but she would be committed regardless. That sounds paradoxical in some ways, but I'm sure someone will understand...

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Welcome and thanks for your testimony.

As for your friend I would refer you to the Lord's word in Matthew 17:21: "Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."

Sorry for the brevity earlier. Basically, if you are not willing to fast and pray for this sister then I see no reason for you to ask her to leave the LRC. I once asked a similar question about a sister when I was single and the answer I got was very wise, I was told "she is like any other sister". I think that applies here as well. Also, although it is reasonable to make the comparison between the demon possessed and the sister due to the brevity of my response, I was hoping that instead you would make the comparison between yourself and the disciples. If you can help this sister now, then you will establish yourself as the priest in your family. Wasn't it Aaron that was chosen based on his rod budding? So this could be a wonderful opportunity for you to lay a good foundation in this relationship as the spiritual head.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Since then the differences between our churches has grown more and more apparent. She has always been taught that people who are in denominational churches (which I don't happen to be, but it's really all the same to them regardless) are dividing the church and whatnot. However, when I brought her to the All Campus Worship event to which nearly every single campus ministry was represented and acknowledged (except, of course, for hers). This bothered her greatly. For all the preaching of oneness and unity, why was it that her church did not go to this ALL CAMPUS worship event? After all, it was the perfect opportunity to display the oneness of all believers in Christ. There are more differences that I could mention, but I feel like I don't really have to here.

Dear brother,

The All Campus Worship events highlight one of the many contradictions in the Recovery. One would naturally think that a group of Christians who talk about "the oneness" as much as they do, would jump at the chance to participate in events such as this, where all the barriers between Christians are temporarily removed. But no! They will never join in. I was in the Recovery for 3 decades, and we never "held hands" with other congregations.

Your future with this sister depends on how tenaciously she grips the Living Stream Ministry. I do know many who kept the LSM at arm's length, and could marry or remain married to outside believers, but as others have posted, the journey is mostly uphill. LSM teaches in such a way that one's relationship with them is more important than with one's spouse. No wonder so many marriages fail.

Does she plan to attend the FTTA after graduation? If so, that is like taking her blood pressure. To a strict LSM zealot, marrying a Christian outside the Recovery is like the mixed marriages that plagued the children of Israel. Obviously, since you have visited this site and learned about the Recovery, you will never be devoted to LSM. It's kind of like Jews and Moslems getting married, it only seems to work out if both are "backsliders."

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Dear brother,

The All Campus Worship events highlight one of the many contradictions in the Recovery. One would naturally think that a group of Christians who talk about "the oneness" as much as they do, would jump at the chance to participate in events such as this, where all the barriers between Christians are temporarily removed. But no! They will never join in. I was in the Recovery for 3 decades, and we never "held hands" with other congregations.

Your future with this sister depends on how tenaciously she grips the Living Stream Ministry. I do know many who kept the LSM at arm's length, and could marry or remain married to outside believers, but as others have posted, the journey is mostly uphill. LSM teaches in such a way that one's relationship with them is more important than with one's spouse. No wonder so many marriages fail.

Does she plan to attend the FTTA after graduation? If so, that is like taking her blood pressure. To a strict LSM zealot, marrying a Christian outside the Recovery is like the mixed marriages that plagued the children of Israel. Obviously, since you have visited this site and learned about the Recovery, you will never be devoted to LSM. It's kind of like Jews and Moslems getting married, it only seems to work out if both are "backsliders."

The interesting thing is that while the group never as a whole chose to attend, there were 3 members of them that also chose to attend the event. I was shocked because I honestly expected no one to be there. So I guess there's more people within the LRC here on campus that aren't as devoted to LSM teachings. Your initial statement is what bothered my girlfriend the most. For all their teachings of oneness and unity, they did not attend an event that was a perfect application of such a belief.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

Your initial statement is what bothered my girlfriend the most. For all their teachings of oneness and unity, they did not attend an event that was a perfect application of such a belief.

Not meaning to go off-topic, but just to touch on what Ohio had spoken. Before on this forum we had touched the ground of locality teaching of one church/one city. In any given city there are thousands, tens of thousands, and maybe hundreds of thousands of Christians in a larger city. Most of whom had never heard of the local churches or of Witness Lee's ministry. It would be logisitically impractical for all to meet in one location. As it is, that practice is contrary how the early Christians used to meet; house to house.

My experience has been unless Jesus Christ is our sole basis for fellowship, there cannot be oneness no matter how much one speaks about it. Just look in 1 Corinthians. There are distinctions of ministries, but one Spirit. As soon as a minister or ministry becomes the basis for fellowship, division is present. We have church history as proof. Paul was clear about that. Paraphrasing, Paul was saying don't look to Cephas, don't look to Apollos, don't look to me, look to Jesus Christ.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Terry

Not meaning to go off-topic, but just to touch on what Ohio had spoken. Before on this forum we had touched the ground of locality teaching of one church/one city. In any given city there are thousands, tens of thousands, and maybe hundreds of thousands of Christians in a larger city. Most of whom had never heard of the local churches or of Witness Lee's ministry. It would be logisitically impractical for all to meet in one location. As it is, that practice is contrary how the early Christians used to meet; house to house.

My experience has been unless Jesus Christ is our sole basis for fellowship, there cannot be oneness no matter how much one speaks about it. Just look in 1 Corinthians. There are distinctions of ministries, but one Spirit. As soon as a minister or ministry becomes the basis for fellowship, division is present. We have church history as proof. Paul was clear about that. Paraphrasing, Paul was saying don't look to Cephas, don't look to Apollos, don't look to me, look to Jesus Christ.

Funny that you bring this up since I had a similar conversation with her regarding the whole one city/one church teaching. I said that it would be very impractical for, say, the whole city of Chicago to meet in one place. I tried to tell her that the Church in Corinth, for example, was probably several assemblies of believers rather than everyone meeting in a central location (though I have no proof to back that up other than logical reasoning) when she said that the one church in a city "doctrine" (my word not hers) was based on what early believers did in the Bible. We had a very circular argument ending with her just saying "well if God wanted to, there could be one city/one church." Well if God wanted to, why hasn't it been done yet? She definitely has a conflict of looking to Christ as the head of the church and LRC teachings regarding the church.

[rayliotta]

Mr. Unregistered Guest,

I wanted to respond to your post, I'm not sure there's anything I can add to what's already been said. Igzy's and Ohio's posts resonated with me in particular.

By way of background, I myself left "the Recovery", finally, a couple years ago. I'm older than you, but still young enough to get on the other posters' nerves around here. Suffice it to say that I wouldn't want to see you in the same experience I saw my own parents in, for so many years, growing up.

I know you don't see yourself and your girlfriend as "unequally yoked", because you both consider yourselves Christians. But there is a tendency in "the Recovery" to promote the idea that inside/outside the Recovery is, actually, unequally yoked. The group is just that special, just that unique in the eyes of the God of the universe.

But I don't want to exaggerate, because it is very true that there's a whole range of attitudes that exist within the Recovery. As much as they like to emphasize "two sides to everything", I believe most things in human life are a matter of degree. At the end of the day, these attitudes may depend more on not only the particular city you are in, but also the people within that locality that your girlfriend is close to.

But more than anything, I would ask this question (and I'm not asking you to answer here): What is her parents' attitude toward all this? Are they comfortable with the relationship? Do they want to end her involvement with you? Somewhere in between? I believe there are those in the Recovery who, though they are there, they've been there a long time, they're happy there, they're comfortable there, yet when it comes down to it, they really don't buy into the more strident claims about what the Recovery really is. Sooner or later, their kids pick up on this, and it is reflected in their personal choices.

I think you may already know the answer....

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If you can help this sister now, then you will establish yourself as the priest in your family. Wasn't it Aaron that was chosen based on his rod budding? So this could be a wonderful opportunity for you to lay a good foundation in this relationship as the spiritual head.

Amen to that, brother.

There is a lot of good advice here, and the only thing I might add, being by my natural self a romantic, is that what truly matters is what the Lord has put on your heart for this young woman.

It is true: "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9 - and yet as we draw closer to Him, it is our hearts that He softens; and love is the ultimate sum of all the commandments.

The advice the brothers have given you here is very practical, and not at all wrong.... but what does the Lord speak to your heart in His still small voice to you about her?

Practically speaking: You have known this young lady for years now, and it does not seem as though she has tried to drag you into her "church", nor to indoctrinate you with LSM theology... that's curious and unusual. As a young, college age man, you are particularly valued - even sought as a prize, by LSM. They have specifically targeted your age group, and they will use young people and relationships to 'gain' you... but it does not seem as though this has happened. In fact, her apparent reluctance to 'share' with you may even indicate that she herself is not 'for the ministry', but merely hasn't seen a way out of it...

Brother, take what the Lord has put on your heart for this girl - and move forward in faith. Be honest with her; and share your faith with her. Build her up, if you love her... and be prepared to share the whole truth in love; even if that ultimately drives her away. That is precisely the kind of self-sacrificing love of Christ for which we ourselves were redeemed.

Your brother in Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Amen to that, brother.

There is a lot of good advice here, and the only thing I might add, being by my natural self a romantic, is that what truly matters is what the Lord has put on your heart for this young woman.

It is true: "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9 - and yet as we draw closer to Him, it is our hearts that He softens; and love is the ultimate sum of all the commandments.

The advice the brothers have given you here is very practical, and not at all wrong.... but what does the Lord speak to your heart in His still small voice to you about her?

Practically speaking: You have known this young lady for years now, and it does not seem as though she has tried to drag you into her "church", nor to indoctrinate you with LSM theology... that's curious and unusual. As a young, college age man, you are particularly valued - even sought as a prize, by LSM. They have specifically targeted your age group, and they will use young people and relationships to 'gain' you... but it does not seem as though this has happened. In fact, her apparent reluctance to 'share' with you may even indicate that she herself is not 'for the ministry', but merely hasn't seen a way out of it...

Brother, take what the Lord has put on your heart for this girl - and move forward in faith. Be honest with her; and share your faith with her. Build her up, if you love her... and be prepared to share the whole truth in love; even if that ultimately drives her away. That is precisely the kind of self-sacrificing love of Christ for which we ourselves were redeemed.

Your brother in Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

Thanks for your reply NFnL. Very wise words.

I am well aware of the whole specific targeting thing that they are doing to people of my age group. Their Bibles for America table says it all, though they try to get everyone possible. I think they had a staff member approach them once and they were very...excited about that if you know what I mean. Of course, that is normal for any group. As for her trying to find a way out, I know that is not the case. If she had her way, I would be in the LRC with her, however I feel as though this is more out of a sense of comfort than anything else. As I mentioned above, this is all she knows. She does say that she sees more growth of the Christian life in the LRC than in other churches. I don't know how she came to that conclusion since she has never attended another church outside the LRC, but there you go. She also says that the Bible studies I attend (I also forgot to mention that I have brought her to a few of my church's small group Bible studies as well as the All Campus Worship) lack the...depth of her Bible studies. I see this as the LRC teachings working in her mind, but perhaps you with more experience can shed light on this.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

As I mentioned above, this is all she knows. She does say that she sees more growth of the Christian life in the LRC than in other churches. I don't know how she came to that conclusion since she has never attended another church outside the LRC, but there you go.

I believe this is normal among Christians. A tendency to meet within their comfort zone; an environment where they feel comfortable. Being raised in the local churches, it was awkward going to a non-local church meeting. I found with other Christian assemblies, there is not much outreach for fellowship with other Christians in your community who don't attend the same assembly.
Comparing growth of life of an LRC assembly to a non-LRC assembly is a statement in error. Growth of the Christian life is not in the assembly, but in an individual's personal walk with the Lord.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Terry

I believe this is normal among Christians. A tendency to meet within their comfort zone; an environment where they feel comfortable. Being raised in the local churches, it was awkward going to a non-local church meeting. I found with other Christian assemblies, there is not much outreach for fellowship with other Christians in your community who don't attend the same assembly.
Comparing growth of life of an LRC assembly to a non-LRC assembly is a statement in error. Growth of the Christian life is not in the assembly, but in an individual's personal walk with the Lord.

I guess that would make sense for the most part. I suppose I'm in the minority in that my church has several events during the year in which we do things with members of other churches in the area. However my church on campus does not do much with other fellowships other than All Campus Worship, though part of it is due to the church being so large (I think almost 1000 members during the year or so). that even meeting with members who are in a different dorm that it is sort of like meeting with another church.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

I believe this is normal among Christians. A tendency to meet within their comfort zone; an environment where they feel comfortable. Being raised in the local churches, it was awkward going to a non-local church meeting. I found with other Christian assemblies, there is not much outreach for fellowship with other Christians in your community who don't attend the same assembly.

Brother TGA,

You have not indicated where you are located, but one thing that may be in your favor is the events of the last 5 or 6 years in the Recovery. A couple of major splits occurred, with one being in the Great Lakes Area where I am. A regional leader in Cleveland, OH was "quarantined" by headquarters in Anaheim, CA.

The positive effect of the splits is that many open-minded saints were forced to reevaluate, or to even consider for the first time, many long held doctrines and practices. The Bible admonishes us to "test all things," and many things in the Recovery, that had been taken for granted, just could not "pass the test," and have since been discarded.

Not all in America, however, have taken these steps to reevaluate Recovery tenets according to the scripture. Many simply clung to the old party line emanating from the Living Stream Ministry. In some places the breakup was nasty indeed, with lawsuits over property and assets. All of these events just exposed the hypocrisy of LSM's "oneness" doctrines and practices.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

She does say that she sees more growth of the Christian life in the LRC than in other churches... She also says that the Bible studies I attend (I also forgot to mention that I have brought her to a few of my church's small group Bible studies as well as the All Campus Worship) lack the...depth of her Bible studies.

The sentiments this young lady has expressed here are not uncommon amongst those within LSM's system. Lee was very adept at using language to confound his adherents. He often used vocabulary with which we may all be familiar, but he would then give it new definitions that could leave your head swimming. By this, he would leave many feeling that he was their intellectual as well as spiritual superior. This is a common tactic amongst lawyers, as well as a common tactic amongst salesmen. For young people growing up within Lee's system, reading only Lee, the use of Lee's verbage would define what is Christian and what isn't.

You pointed out in an earlier post that you called LSM's Hymnal Lee's hymnal - and you were right to do so. Lee wouldn't even permit songs from other Christian groups to be the focus of worship - he had to have his own songs with his own words (not that he wrote all of them in that hymnal, but his 'unique ministry' colored them all, or most of them). Abandoning his system means abandoning cherished songs, ways of praying, ways of meeting, ways of thinking about and expressing your faith, ways of preaching of the gospel, and ways of thinking about yourself. That's a lot to abandon; and as you will note from the length of time many have spent on this forum, it can take a long long time to work through that.

Yes, a flurry of impressive sounding terminology in any field or any setting could give the impression that a group is somehow advanced.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

The sentiments this young lady has expressed here are not uncommon amongst those within LSM's system. Lee was very adept at using language to confound his adherents. He often used vocabulary with which we may all be familiar, but he would then give it new definitions that could leave your head swimming. By this, he would leave many feeling that he was their intellectual as well as spiritual superior. This is a common tactic amongst lawyers, as well as a common tactic amongst salesmen. For young people growing up within Lee's system, reading only Lee, the use of Lee's verbage would define what is Christian and what isn't.

You pointed out in an earlier post that you called LSM's Hymnal Lee's hymnal - and you were right to do so. Lee wouldn't even permit songs from other Christian groups to be the focus of worship - he had to have his own songs with his own words (not that he wrote all of them in that hymnal, but his 'unique ministry' colored them all, or most of them). Abandoning his system means abandoning cherished songs, ways of praying, ways of meeting, ways of thinking about and expressing your faith, ways of preaching of the gospel, and ways of thinking about yourself. That's a lot to abandon; and as you will note from the length of time many have spent on this forum, it can take a long long time to work through that.

Well said.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

The sentiments this young lady has expressed here are not uncommon amongst those within LSM's system. Lee was very adept at using language to confound his adherents. He often used vocabulary with which we may all be familiar, but he would then give it new definitions that could leave your head swimming. By this, he would leave many feeling that he was their intellectual as well as spiritual superior. This is a common tactic amongst lawyers, as well as a common tactic amongst salesmen. For young people growing up within Lee's system, reading only Lee, the use of Lee's verbage would define what is Christian and what isn't.

You pointed out in an earlier post that you called LSM's Hymnal Lee's hymnal - and you were right to do so. Lee wouldn't even permit songs from other Christian groups to be the focus of worship - he had to have his own songs with his own words (not that he wrote all of them in that hymnal, but his 'unique ministry' colored them all, or most of them). Abandoning his system means abandoning cherished songs, ways of praying, ways of meeting, ways of thinking about and expressing your faith, ways of preaching of the gospel, and ways of thinking about yourself. That's a lot to abandon; and as you will note from the length of time many have spent on this forum, it can take a long long time to work through that.

A very valid point, it is a lot to abandon. So much so that I am worried about how she would adjust especially since she doesn't like drastic change all that much (and this would very much be a drastic change). Seeing as how this forum was created so that you all could help each other cope and whatnot (unless there's more to it in which case I apologize for being shallow minded or something) I'd say that I still very much have a long way to go even if she does agree to leave eventually. That said, how have you all coped being out of the LRC after all these years? How long did it take you to adjust?

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Mr. Unregistered Guest,

I wanted to respond to your post, I'm not sure there's anything I can add to what's already been said. Igzy's and Ohio's posts resonated with me in particular.

By way of background, I myself left "the Recovery", finally, a couple years ago. I'm older than you, but still young enough to get on the other posters' nerves around here. Suffice it to say that I wouldn't want to see you in the same experience I saw my own parents in, for so many years, growing up.

I know you don't see yourself and your girlfriend as "unequally yoked", because you both consider yourselves Christians. But there is a tendency in "the Recovery" to promote the idea that inside/outside the Recovery is, actually, unequally yoked. The group is just that special, just that unique in the eyes of the God of the universe.

But I don't want to exaggerate, because it is very true that there's a whole range of attitudes that exist within the Recovery. As much as they like to emphasize "two sides to everything", I believe most things in human life are a matter of degree. At the end of the day, these attitudes may depend more on not only the particular city you are in, but also the people within that locality that your girlfriend is close to.

But more than anything, I would ask this question (and I'm not asking you to answer here): What is her parents' attitude toward all this? Are they comfortable with the relationship? Do they want to end her involvement with you? Somewhere in between? I believe there are those in the Recovery who, though they are there, they've been there a long time, they're happy there, they're comfortable there, yet when it comes down to it, they really don't buy into the more strident claims about what the Recovery really is. Sooner or later, their kids pick up on this, and it is reflected in their personal choices.

I think you may already know the answer....

Heh, her parents never wanted me to be with her in the first place. This is out of the mentality that she was too young to be in a relationship and whatnot. Standard conservative attitude. However, I think me not being a member of the LRC has something to do with it as well. They seem pretty set in their ways and are very traditional Asian parents (oh yeah, we're both Asian) so combining that with LRC views on things like dating, and I think you know what comes out. That being said, she hasn't really cared that much about it and her parents have always been outwardly kind to me. It's more of a front than anything, but it's better than open displeasure...

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by OBW

What I am saying is that unless she is showing signs of being willing to actually discuss these issues and reconsider her position, you are stepping into a relationship that will make the marriage of James Carville (Democratic strategist bulldog) and Mary Matalin (Republican strategist bulldog) seem like Snow White and Prince Charming. Or if you are willing to ignore the problems with the LRC and go her way. Otherwise, it might be better to be heartbroken for a while and look elsewhere.

I know. A hard word. But it is a little like a white woman deciding to marry a black man in 19th century Alabama. Shouldn’t be a problem. But in that time, it would be. I would bet (not prophesy) that if you continue with her and do not eventually start going her way, you will not continue with her for long. Sad. But I could be proved wrong.

I won't claim to know what marginal exactly means in this context, but I'm pretty sure she's not marginal. She's pretty well integrated as an officer into the club function of CoC as well, which I'm not sure they would allow a "marginal" member to do.

As for her being open to discussion, she is. I probably missed many details in my initial post, which is easy to do. She is by no means a LRC zealot if you will. She has no intentions of going to the FTT after college and pretty much only goes because it's all she knows and has grown up with. Therefore, the outlook is not quite as bleak as you would say. Still, the teachings of LSM and the LRC are well ingrained in her life (understandable since she grew up in it) so it's no walk in the park to convince her of other things, as I'm sure you know.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

I won't claim to know what marginal exactly means in this context, but I'm pretty sure she's not marginal. She's pretty well integrated as an officer into the club function of CoC as well, which I'm not sure they would allow a "marginal" member to do.

As for her being open to discussion, she is. I probably missed many details in my initial post, which is easy to do. She is by no means a LRC zealot if you will. She has no intentions of going to the FTT after college and pretty much only goes because it's all she knows and has grown up with. Therefore, the outlook is not quite as bleak as you would say. Still, the teachings of LSM and the LRC are well ingrained in her life (understandable since she grew up in it) so it's no walk in the park to convince her of other things, as I'm sure you know.

These facts reveal a kind of wild card. Brought up in the LRC is not necessarily a plus for them. But while she has been open to dating you for some time, since she refuses to really discuss church issues, she has probably not faced the inconsistent position (relative to what her upbringing should insist upon). How she reacts when faced with this reality will be the key.

I know that I painted a bleak picture. But I would not say there is no hope. But if things go well for you, she will eventually have to deal with some level of discord within her family, even if it remains simply the elephant in the room. I know about this. While my family joined the LRC when I was a senior in high school, I was part of it for 14+ years, now being out for almost 24 years (next month). There has been limited real conflict, but continuous background noise about our leaving. When I visit my parents (now only my Dad) or my brother and/or sister, there is an elephant in the room. And the little snips of comments (not directed at us) that are like the voices in the trees on Lost.

Now I met my wife in the LRC, and we left together. The LRC conflict has always been outside of our house, not within it. So our situation is not what you will face (no matter how it works out). But it may not be that different.

As for the comment on being "marginal," it is an insidious term that LRC leadership uses in private about the membership. It relates to those who are not toeing the LRC line in virtually every way. But the range of marginal goes from simply not involved in the latest "turn" (as they used to call it, like the New Way back in the 80s) all the way up to just hanging on and only coming to an occasional meeting. Your girlfriend, by dating an outsider, has become, at some level, marginal no matter how strongly she seems to be for the program and despite the fact that her entire family is part of the LRC. My parents have been referred to as marginal. And they've weathered every storm in the LRC since January, 1973. And out of another side of the leaderships' mouths called pillars of the church in Dallas. (Actually, I doubt that Dallas considers them that marginal. But Irving did, which was mostly run by LSM people at the time.) It probably stems (partly) from the fact that they moved from Dallas to Irving and the back several years later without clearing it with the "brothers." My goodness, someone sold a house without our approval.

The is the nature of the beast that you are dealing with.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by OBW

These facts reveal a kind of wild card. Brought up in the LRC is not necessarily a plus for them. But while she has been open to dating you for some time, since she refuses to really discuss church issues, she has probably not faced the inconsistent position (relative to what her upbringing should insist upon). How she reacts when faced with this reality will be the key.

I know that I painted a bleak picture. But I would not say there is no hope. But if things go well for you, she will eventually have to deal with some level of discord within her family, even if it remains simply the elephant in the room. I know about this. While my family joined the LRC when I was a senior in high school, I was part of it for 14+ years, now being out for almost 24 years (next month). There has been limited real conflict, but continuous background noise about our leaving. When I visit my parents (now only my Dad) or my brother and/or sister, there is an elephant in the room. And the little snips of comments (not directed at us) that are like the voices in the trees on Lost.

Now I met my wife in the LRC, and we left together. The LRC conflict has always been outside of our house, not within it. So our situation is not what you will face (no matter how it works out). But it may not be that different.

As for the comment on being "marginal," it is an insidious term that LRC leadership uses in private about the membership. It relates to those who are not toeing the LRC line in virtually every way. But the range of marginal goes from simply not involved in the latest "turn" (as they used to call it, like the New Way back in the 80s) all the way up to just hanging on and only coming to an occasional meeting. Your girlfriend, by dating an outsider, has become, at some level, marginal no matter how strongly she seems to be for the program and despite the fact that her entire family is part of the LRC. My parents have been referred to as marginal. And they've weathered every storm in the LRC since January, 1973. And out of another side of the leaderships' mouths called pillars of the church in Dallas. (Actually, I doubt that Dallas considers them that marginal. But Irving did, which was mostly run by LSM people at the time.) It probably stems (partly) from the fact that they moved from Dallas to Irving and the back several years later without clearing it with the "brothers." My goodness, someone sold a house without our approval.

The is the nature of the beast that you are dealing with.

I suppose you are right about the whole elephant in the room thing with her parents. In the event that all goes well and we get married and then on top of that she leaves the LRC to attend somewhere else with me, I think there would be an extremely large elephant in the room if you know what I mean. I don't know how her parents think, but I'd probably say they'd have the feeling that I stole her away entirely. While I might be able to convince her of things within the LRC, I doubt I'd be able to do the same to her parents. Alas, such is the situation.

And if she is indeed considered marginal, then they definitely don't show it. She's pretty well liked and probably well known amongst everyone there (not hard to do since it's a very small assembly).

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Your girlfriend, by dating an outsider, has become, at some level, marginal no matter how strongly she seems to be for the program and despite the fact that her entire family is part of the LRC.

Sisters marrying brothers outside of the LRC is really quite common. As a rule the sisters outnumber the brothers by at least 2 to 1 and maybe even 3 to 1. So given the choice between being a Mormon and marrying a Christian that meets outside of the LRC, they are forced to be practical.

[UntoHim]

ZNP I'd like to know how you come up with this information. How many Local Churches have you surveyed to come up with these figures?

I think the reason for the "missing" brothers is not that the sisters married out of the Local Church, but rather they (sisters) have a tendency to stick it out longer then their husbands. There are probably a lot of reasons for this dynamic and it's probably irrelevant to ToGodAlone anyway.

This is to say nothing of the fact that women have always outnumbered men in American churches, though I have never heard of it reaching a 2-1 or 3-1 ratio.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

ZNP I'd like to know how you come up with this information. How many Local Churches have you surveyed to come up with these figures?

I think the reason for the "missing" brothers is not that the sisters married out of the Local Church, but rather they (sisters) have a tendency to stick it out longer then their husbands. There are probably a lot of reasons for this dynamic and it's probably irrelevant to ToGodAlone anyway.

This is to say nothing of the fact that women have always outnumbered men in American churches, though I have never heard of it reaching a 2-1 or 3-1 ratio.

As to the first question see post #29.

I did not mean to imply that I was giving a reason for the ratio or that the LRC was any different from any other Christian church in this regard. The reason I felt it was relevant ToGodAlone is that sisters in the LRC marrying Christian brothers outside the LRC is not that unusual.

As to the ratio and my "unscientific" method, I understand that you could be in a meeting and there could be people behind the scenes that you are not counting, so I am only counting those that I can see. I would have no way of giving you an accurate number of how many meetings I have counted over 30 years, I would say that it would have to be more than 100 and less than 1,000. But that does include some very large Christian gatherings (I figure the larger the sampling size the better the results).

If I was forced to come up with a reason I would have to say that brothers are worth...(actually I think I will refrain from giving a reason other than this is a Biblical principle that is part of "The Ministry" shared by the MOTA).

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Sisters marrying brothers outside of the LRC is really quite common. As a rule the sisters outnumber the brothers by at least 2 to 1 and maybe even 3 to 1.

Is this your observation from your time in Texas or your observation as a FTTT trainer?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

Is this your observation from your time in Texas or your observation as a FTTT trainer?

Well, WL once shared based on the account of Lazarus that it represented a typical church (Mary, Martha and Lazarus) and that generally in the church sisters outnumber brothers 2:1. Since that point I often would find myself bored in a meeting and would count. Now if it was a large meeting say with hundreds or even thousands of saints I would choose a random section, count 30 or 60 saints and figure it was a fair representation. But I would say for the last 30 years I have counted, and this is not merely LRC, this is every meeting I have attended (new places, I don't count every week where I am currently meeting) and it has never seemed to fail. I must say after 30 years it has been extremely rare, if ever, that I attended a church meeting and the ratio was less than 2:1.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

Is this your observation from your time in Texas or your observation as a FTTT trainer?

I answered this in Post #29 on the assumption that the observation you were referring to was the 2:1 ratio or higher. As to the observation about sisters marrying brothers outside the recovery it has been my observation in every meeting that I attended that there would be a number of sisters, perhaps even 10%, that met with the LRC and their husband didn't. Also, over a 20 year time I did learn of number of sisters that were married to brothers outside of the LRC. Again, I would think that 10% is a fair estimate.

As to the reason for this I have no idea and will leave that to others to postulate because anything I say will certainly incite a riot.

Hello dear brother. I was looking for something else when I happened on your story and was drawn in by sensitivity of your writing concerning your personal involvement with your dear girlfriend. You don't seem to be asking for advise here but, anonymously, I felt to offer some. I have been in what you tag "The Lord's Recovery" since I began reading Watchman Nee books at the age of 17 and met some of brothers in my home town.

At that time, there was no footnotes and limited recorded publications but I have witnessed the gradual growth of what I consider is phenomenal light and truth embedded in God's Word through the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. My spiritual life, my personal life, my family life (which includes my involvement with my girlfriend who became my wife), my children, my professional life and fellowship life with my close brothers and sisters have all been greatly benefited by the reading of these publications. Modalism is not taught here, although some careless theologians accuse us of teaching it. All the above is to share that I am convinced the vision of Br Nee and Br Lee and ones I have been involved with is a genuine move of the Spirit. Now lay what I said above aside.

To be honest, one thing about this move is that it is based on having a serious desire to surrender your life to take care of God's interest and sympathize with God's need of a response from His people. That personal hunger that would lead one to sacrifice to gain the lost world and live for building up believers is an essential element in this kind of Christian living. One only gets the supply of grace to want to live this kind of life from the Lord Himself . If you care about your girlfriend and she cares about you, you need to consider whether you both have the desire to want to live your lives to meet the Lord's need. My wife and I are not perfect, but along the way, and with the help of Bible being properly interpreted we both have this feeling. I highly recommend it to you. The best to you and to your girl friend dear brother.

Anonymous

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Greetings brothers and sisters.

I found this site a couple weeks ago and was intrigued by what I saw. As the title of my thread may imply, I am not a member of the so called Lord's Recovery. So why am I here? Well sit back and relax and I'll tell you.

A few years ago, I had no idea this movement even existed. I grew up in what they would call the "apostate denominational churches" in the Recovery. I was perfectly content with how things were until a girl came and rocked my world...

As you might've guessed, this girl was a member of the Lord's Recovery. Now typically, this wouldn't have mattered to me except for one thing: this girl became my girlfriend. A few months into the relationship, I asked her what church she went to since I had never asked before then (I had known she was a Christian before we started going out and whatnot) to which she replied "the Church in *I won't say where to preserve the anonymity of this post*" Upon a quick google search of this place, the Lord's Recovery was introduced into my life.

I didn't think much of it at first, since after seeing their website nothing popped out as weird except for the term Lord's Recovery. I asked her about it a few times, but I guess she gave all the "right answers" as I continued to not really think anything of this place. However, months later, I looked up the Recovery version of the Bible out of curiosity. It was then that I first saw the lengthy Witness Lee footnotes that you are all familiar with. The particular preview that I saw was from Genesis 1:1. I was amused by the fact that there was 1 or 2 verses on the page followed by paragraphs upon paragraphs of footnotes. I had been told that her Bible had footnotes prior to this, however I had assumed it would've been like the footnotes in any other Bible I've seen, just a few notes here and there. While I joked with her about the amount of footnotes there were, I looked at some other parts in the New Testament and was, of course, treated to the same thing. I asked her if she read all of these footnotes to which she replied that it wasn't "necessary" to but it was helpful in the explanation of certain parts. Made perfect sense to me, so I proceeded to read some in the next few weeks. However I was more confused by these footnotes than enlightened.

Fast forward to the summer before we started college. We happened to choose the same college and I asked her if she wanted to join one of the campus ministries on campus that a few people from my church had told me about. She was pretty adamant about going to the Christians on Campus "branch" of her church. This, naturally, disappointed me greatly. By this point I had grown to care very much about her, and it always bugged me that we had never been to church together. We had talked about it every now and then, and I figured college would be the perfect opportunity to do so. Thus, her persistent stance on joining Christians on Campus stung even more.

By now, I had read many bad things about the Lord's Recovery, even being told by my youth pastor that it was a heretical church based upon their modalistic teachings. Not wanting to condemn based on the words of people who might not necessarily know what they were talking about (and partly based on my girlfriend's exclamations that people on the internet were simply seeking/were instruments of Satan to smash her church) I decided to go to a meeting the 2nd week of school. What I saw there fit most descriptions of what I had read up until that point. There was sing-reading, pray-reading, many exclamations of "Oh Lord Jesus!" and loud "Amens" and "Lord Jesus", exclusive usage of the Recovery version (which wasn't even being used in this particular meeting) and what I call the Witness Lee Hymnal, and all sorts of things that I should not have to describe to you. I recall one hymn we sang which contained something along the lines of "Jesus transfigured into the Holy Spirit" which sprung my mental modalist warning system. It seemed as though everything I had read was right.

My girlfriend perhaps sensed that I had a negative view of her church and gave me the silent treatment for awhile. Not wanting to upset her, I agreed to go to a larger college meeting or outing or something with members of Christians on Campus from several other colleges. However, it was more of the same. While I convinced her that it wasn't as bad as I had thought before, the thought that she was in a "misguided" church gnawed at my heart for months afterwards.

Since then the differences between our churches has grown more and more apparent. She has always been taught that people who are in denominational churches (which I don't happen to be, but it's really all the same to them regardless) are dividing the church and whatnot. However, when I brought her to the All Campus Worship event to which nearly every single campus ministry was represented and acknowledged (except, of course, for hers). This bothered her greatly. For all the preaching of oneness and unity, why was it that her church did not go to this ALL CAMPUS worship event? After all, it was the perfect opportunity to display the oneness of all believers in Christ. There are more differences that I could mention, but I feel like I don't really have to here.

This leads me to why I am posting here. What should I do? I know a lot of you have some pretty strong views on Witness Lee and the local church and whatnot, but naturally (and for some personal reasons which I can't really disclose) I can't ask her to just leave and join me. In fact, she'll probably be unable to leave even if she wanted to until after we've graduated. I'm not asking for some way to "convert" her or anything, just for a way that we can grow together in Christ like we've wanted to do this whole time. I know there are some good aspects of the local church (such as a communal, family like lifestyle) that many churches can stand to learn from, but it seems in this case, the bad outweighs the good.

Many thanks and God bless.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hello dear brother. I was looking for something else when I happened on your story and was drawn in by sensitivity of your writing concerning your personal involvement with your dear girlfriend. You don't seem to be asking for advise here but, anonymously, I felt to offer some. I have been in what you tag "The Lord's Recovery" since I began reading Watchman Nee books at the age of 17 and met some of brothers in my home town.

At that time, there was no footnotes and limited recorded publications but I have witnessed the gradual growth of what I consider is phenomenal light and truth embedded in God's Word through the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. My spiritual life, my personal life, my family life (which includes my involvement with my girlfriend who became my wife), my children, my professional life and fellowship life with my close brothers and sisters have all been greatly benefited by the reading of these publications. Modalism is not taught here, although some careless theologians accuse us of teaching it. All the above is to share that I am convinced the vision of Br Nee and Br Lee and ones I have been involved with is a genuine move of the Spirit. Now lay what I said above aside.

To be honest, one thing about this move is that it is based on having a serious desire to surrender your life to take care of God's interest and sympathize with God's need of a response from His people. That personal hunger that would lead one to sacrifice to gain the lost world and live for building up believers is an essential element in this kind of Christian living. One only gets the supply of grace to want to live this kind of life from the Lord Himself . If you care about your girlfriend and she cares about you, you need to consider whether you both have the desire to want to live your lives to meet the Lord's need. My wife and I are not perfect, but along the way, and with the help of Bible being properly interpreted we both have this feeling. I highly recommend it to you. The best to you and to your girl friend dear brother.

Anonymous

I know hundreds of brothers who believed the same as "unregistered" posted above. We were helped by the ministries of WL and WN and those ahead of us in this journey. Though we all had our personal faults and shortcomings, none can say that our consecration to the Lord and dedication to the church was somehow sufficient.

What was the cause of so many former members leaving the "Recovery?" It was not the loss of vision, nor some hidden loves for self or the world, neither unforgiven offenses nor hidden ambitions. None of these characterizations can properly describe their departures. Neither were they "poisoned" by some negative speaking.

Nearly every one who left, did so because of abuses and unrighteousnesses by church ministry leaders. I have read many of their accounts. Many who left were simply crying out for righteousness, many left badly beaten. Many could not stomach the unrighteousness covered up by the leaders. They realized that the high and lofty message of "the vision of Christ and the church" had been highjacked by unscrupulous leaders intent on personal gain and glory.

I was active in the LC's since the mid 70's. All of these serious problems were kept from the many sincere members. Though I had begun to suspect the Recovery had serious issues back in the 90's, it was not until the events surrounding the quarantine of TC that caused me to seriously and objectively examine what I gave my life to. The Bible tells us to "test all things." After 30 years, I finally took this verse to heart, and put the Recovery to the test.

[Paul Cox]

Quote:

To be honest, one thing about this move is that it is based on having a serious desire to surrender your life to take care of God's interest and sympathize with God's need of a response from His people.

If God's interest is to spread Living Stream style churches to every city, and if God's interest is to get every living Christian to read only LSM material, then yes. But, that is not God's interest.

The fact that unregistered's girlfriend refused to go to the collective gathering of other Christians on campus speaks volumes. This is a narrow, exclusive group, and they are not interested in anything else that is going on in Christianity because they don't believe God is with those other Christians.

Unregistered, you are about to embark on a long and difficult journey if you want to continue with this girl in the hopes that there can be some sort of compromise. These people compromise about like the Jehovah's Witnesses. May the Lord be with you as you go forward.

P.C.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

By now, I had read many bad things about the Lord's Recovery, even being told by my youth pastor that it was a heretical church based upon their modalistic teachings. Not wanting to condemn based on the words of people who might not necessarily know what they were talking about (and partly based on my girlfriend's exclamations that people on the internet were simply seeking/were instruments of Satan to smash her church) I decided to go to a meeting the 2nd week of school. What I saw there fit most descriptions of what I had read up until that point. There was sing-reading, pray-reading, many exclamations of "Oh Lord Jesus!" and loud "Amens" and "Lord Jesus", exclusive usage of the Recovery version (which wasn't even being used in this particular meeting) and what I call the Witness Lee Hymnal, and all sorts of things that I should not have to describe to you. I recall one hymn we sang which contained something along the lines of "Jesus transfigured into the Holy Spirit" which sprung my mental modalist warning system. It seemed as though everything I had read was right.

My thoughts are brothers in the local churches beginning with the late Witness Lee had/have been careless and irresponsible when speaking on the trinity. Mystical and mysterious as the trinity is, best not to use analogies when speaking on the trinity.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Terry

My thoughts are brothers in the local churches beginning with the late Witness Lee had/have been careless and irresponsible when speaking on the trinity. Mystical and mysterious as the trinity is, best not to use analogies when speaking on the trinity.

I'm thinking that any teaching or doctrine in LSM materials that is healthy and useful is not new or invented by LSM and has been taught by someone in the history of the orthodox (lower case "o" so as not to exclude anyone) church, but any teaching or doctrine created by or unique to LSM is suspect and probably not healthy or orthodox.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

I'm thinking that any teaching or doctrine in LSM materials that is healthy and useful is not new or invented by LSM and has been taught by someone in the history of the orthodox (lower case "o" so as not to exclude anyone) church, but any teaching or doctrine created by or unique to LSM is suspect and probably not healthy or orthodox.

By LSM I mean WL, I don't think the BBs have the capacity to invent or create anything new.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by HERn

By LSM I mean WL, I don't think the BBs have the capacity to invent or create anything new.

I think that if a list were compiled of Lee's teachings that LCers believe to be "unique" to the LC, they would find that many teachings were not quite as unique to Lee as they thought. For example, there is a book titled Prophetic Ministry by TAS where the phrase "economy of God" is used. That book was published in 1954.

LCers just believe the information they're told, so they probably couldn't even image that Lee's "uniqueness" was just limited to his more questionable teachings. They are told things like "you can't find these riches anywhere else", and they believe it without thinking twice.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

They are told things like "you can't find these riches anywhere else", and they believe it without thinking twice.

I know. They should rephrase it: "We assume these riches aren't found anywhere else. But we haven't bothered to look." I myself have looked, briefly, and have found discussions of the economies of God, traced back to Irenaeus (Against Heresies, I, 10, 1 & 3, pp. 42-44) Clement, Hippolytus, etc. You don't think that these people were reading Paul, too? Was the world really locked down in ignorance and darkness until "God raised up the seer of the age(s), His bondslave Witness Lee"? One would think so, the way they present his teachings.