An Outsider's Story

[OBW]

You’ve asked for a rather large order of opinion. And while I will try to give some help, know that this is far from complete. And as much as I think I know what to do, it is not necessarily the best advice.

First, the claims of heresy are a little overstated. Yet they are not entirely wrong either. The problem is that Lee taught a complete version of Three and One, but was almost completely focused on the One. But instead of just saying “God,” he took on the terminology/names of the Three to talk about the One. I view it as speaking of the Trinity, and appreciating the Three, sort of, but basically ignoring it and turning it all back into just One. And God is One God. But to talk about the One God in the terms of the Three is to obliterate the reason that God revealed himself as three.

Totally unsatisfying as an answer on that issue. Just suffice it to say that the reality of it is probably a small-h heresy but not a capital-H Heresy.

The problem with a relationship as you are proposing is that as long as she remains committed to the LRC (“Lords Recovery Church” as we often call it, or “Local Church” as they often call it) is that the leadership will put pressure on her to not continue the relationship. There has been some exposure of their direct attacks on dating that they don’t like, so I would not be surprised that they would downplay it a little. But it will never be gone unless they already consider her “marginal.”

But even the marginal stick around. The most insidious thing about the LRC is that there are so many teachings that create a sense of spiritual superiority just for being there, and a fear of displeasing God if they leave, that they are often sort of hamstrung in their ability to consider leaving. Many will simply stick around on the periphery, only occasionally attending meetings. But they will never leave and never attend another place — unless they have their eyes opened to the falsehoods of the claims of superiority. And that is difficult because they warn against even reading negative things about the LRC.

The landscape is strewn with divorces because one wanted to remain in the LRC and the other did not. The divorce is all too often instigated by the one remaining for the purpose of not being “unequally yoked” or some other thing.

What I am saying is that unless she is showing signs of being willing to actually discuss these issues and reconsider her position, you are stepping into a relationship that will make the marriage of James Carville (Democratic strategist bulldog) and Mary Matalin (Republican strategist bulldog) seem like Snow White and Prince Charming. Or if you are willing to ignore the problems with the LRC and go her way. Otherwise, it might be better to be heartbroken for a while and look elsewhere.

I know. A hard word. But it is a little like a white woman deciding to marry a black man in 19th century Alabama. Shouldn’t be a problem. But in that time, it would be. I would bet (not prophesy) that if you continue with her and do not eventually start going her way, you will not continue with her for long. Sad. But I could be proved wrong.

[OBW]

And while ZNP's response is sort of treating the LRC like a demon, he is not that "over the top" in saying it.

OBW thank you for your reply.

Over the past couple years I have learned a lot about the local church and I would tend to agree that their Trinitarian teachings are more focused on the One rather than the Three rather than full on modalism.

As for her being committed to the LRC, I perhaps did not clarify enough in my initial post. It's easy to miss things while you're typing a long testimony after all. She is and has been willing to discuss and reconsider differences between our churches. I will use perhaps a lame example, but one nonetheless. She had long held the thought that Christian worship bands were bad (I don't remember the exact term she used, although it could have been distracting or divisive) because they made people focus on the music rather than worshiping God while hymns strictly promoted worship. After I showed her many songs by various artists (Chris Tomlin and Hillsong to name a few) she did change her mind on the issue. While it is somewhat of a small issue being only music, it does show a willingness to change opinions.

As for the pressure to discontinue the relationship, we've encountered this since coming to college. She, obviously, has not "heeded their warnings" and whatnot. I don't know what being considered marginal means, but judging by her current position within the Christians on Campus RSO (registered student organization, that is, the church is an official school club in which she has an officer position) I'd say that no one considers her marginal.

Regarding the sense of spiritual superiority, I definitely saw signs of that early on in the relationship, however, after past talks, I'd say her sense of superiority has been, at the very least, shaken. I don't consider myself some sort of spiritual role model by any means, but it's clear that she believes me to be every bit as Christian as members of the LRC. I think it is this belief that weakens the sense of superiority over other churches/Christians. Nonetheless, she will not leave the LRC for the next few years at least, more so due to the aforementioned personal issues, than out of pure dedication (although dedication is also a reason).

I do wish to show her some fallacies perhaps regarding the teachings of Witness Lee or those since he died. My biggest beef with the LRC has always been their insistence on the use of LSM (aka Witness Lee) reading materials (the HWfMW was the text used in the first meeting I attended), hymnals and otherwise (not the hymnal itself, but rather the fact that its contents were written by Witness Lee), and the amount of importance on which they give the footnotes in the RcV. I'm sure many of you could go on for days about the inconsistencies and false teachings within the LRC, which is why I came here.

Ultimately, I think the solution to the "problem" will come when she is presented with the facts about the LRC. I don't want to put it as a "me vs them" kind of situation or decision, or as a "I'm right and you're wrong" type of thing. These kinds of arguments would only lead to a circular argument and ultimately nothing would be gained, but much would be lost.

As a side question, how have you all managed after leaving the LRC? Do any of you attend "mainstream" churches or do you stick with private, home based affairs? And how has the shift affected you? I pray that none of you are in a sort of "spiritual limbo" or anything like that, but how was the transition out of the "church life"?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

The problem with a relationship as you are proposing is that as long as she remains committed to the LRC (“Lords Recovery Church” as we often call it, or “Local Church” as they often call it) is that the leadership will put pressure on her to not continue the relationship. There has been some exposure of their direct attacks on dating that they don’t like, so I would not be surprised that they would downplay it a little. But it will never be gone unless they already consider her “marginal.”

But even the marginal stick around. The most insidious thing about the LRC is that there are so many teachings that create a sense of spiritual superiority just for being there, and a fear of displeasing God if they leave, that they are often sort of hamstrung in their ability to consider leaving. Many will simply stick around on the periphery, only occasionally attending meetings. But they will never leave and never attend another place — unless they have their eyes opened to the falsehoods of the claims of superiority. And that is difficult because they warn against even reading negative things about the LRC.

Up to a certain point I agree with OBW. A sister as the unregistered brother posted on, how deep is her commitment? Is the church in xxxxx the assembly she was brought up and goes because that's her Christian environment or is she one who has already intended/planned to attend FTTA following college?
I've seen sisters raised in the local churches who married brothers from outside the local churches. Key from my perspective was commitment to the relationship first or commitment to the churchlife first? Whichever the case, it is a human reaction for her to be defensive about the assembly she meets with. Same can be said where you meet or where I meet. It's not denominational, but in the local churches it is received as denominational.

Guess what I'm getting after is where is the time commitment? If it's the local church functions (college age meetings, college age prayer meetings, conferences, trainings, etc), the ministry Living Stream Ministry publishes, etc that is her commitment, in my honest opinion a relationship would only work with one also in a likeminded commitment.
If the time commitment is to the relationship first and local church functions second, there is hope. There is hope for a relationship and a fellowship based on being a brother and sister in Christ.

Originally Posted by Terry

Up to a certain point I agree with OBW. A sister as the unregistered brother posted on, how deep is her commitment? Is the church in xxxxx the assembly she was brought up and goes because that's her Christian environment or is she one who has already intended/planned to attend FTTA following college?
I've seen sisters raised in the local churches who married brothers from outside the local churches. Key from my perspective was commitment to the relationship first or commitment to the churchlife first? Whichever the case, it is a human reaction for her to be defensive about the assembly she meets with. Same can be said where you meet or where I meet. It's not denominational, but in the local churches it is received as denominational.

Guess what I'm getting after is where is the time commitment? If it's the local church functions (college age meetings, college age prayer meetings, conferences, trainings, etc), the ministry Living Stream Ministry publishes, etc that is her commitment, in my honest opinion a relationship would only work with one also in a likeminded commitment.
If the time commitment is to the relationship first and local church functions second, there is hope. There is hope for a relationship and a fellowship based on being a brother and sister in Christ.

Thanks for your reply Terry. You hit on several key points which I think show why it is possible to keep this relationship going. She attends LRC meetings because it is what she has grown up with. It's all she knows and probably all she would have known if I had not come along and showed her the other side of things. While she does attend many of the functions you mentioned (in fact, she is currently at the summer college training as I write this) she does so mostly out of necessity. That is, she goes because she is expected to go. Her parents also grew up in the local church (or at least her dad did) overseas and as such, there are deep roots and connections to the local church for her. While she has made it clear that she would rather be spending time with me instead of going to meetings, trainings, BFA distributions, etc (not always, but sometimes), it would put her in a bad situation with her parents having to explain why she was not attending these things. I must also add that her parents don't really approve of me as a boyfriend either (I think it's just because they don't like me for becoming her boyfriend before an "appropriate" age moreso than the LRC views on relationships, although that may also be a part of it) so saying that she's not at things because of me would not be very good for us at all.

I have seen a very large window of hope for us in spite of the issues swirling around us. However, I feel as though we will only grow in our relationship as God intends for us if we settle the differences between the LRC and other churches. Even within the Christians on Campus group there are those who are marrying outside of the LRC (or at least I do not think that their spouses were raised in the LRC like they were) so I know she is not unfamiliar with that happening around her.

[Cal]

It's interesting that she's seeking an intimate relationship outside the LRC. This probably shows either she's not that committed, or she really wants a relationship and is not happy with the choices she has inside her group. The first is good for you; the second isn't.

Hopefully, she is not one of those women who thinks they can catch a husband and then change him. Lord help you (whether she's in the LRC or not) if she's that kind. Run and don't look back if she is, IMHO.

The fact is couples need to have a similar religious outlooks to have a happy life. Religious differences just create more problems. If both of you can look past your differences, then both of you can attend the same church, if you catch my meaning. But as far as the LRC goes, it isn't enough to attend, you have to be fully committed.

I would just ask her point blank, "If you knew I would never join your church, would you still be interested in me?" See what she says.

You are both young and you can revert to just being friends for awhile if that's what it takes.

Also, pray about it. Ask the Lord to work it out. He will.

Best wishes.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The fact is couples need to have a similar religious outlooks to have a happy life. Religious differences just create more problems.

An additional comment here ... based on my own personal experience ... which has tasted the bitterness of too many failures.

LSM provides a regular dose of "judgmentalism" in their ministry. Their more earnest members are well trained to be critical of "all things Christian," and this sad feature unfortunately translates into marriage life. By its very design by the Creator, marriage is endless compromise in every area of life. When spouses become judgmental and uncompromising, feelings of love can rapidly deteriorate. Few 21st century marriages can survive such an environment. Personally, I never found peace within marriage until we left that ministry of condemnation.

[UntoHim]

Unregistered,
Thanks for having the guts to come here and share these very personal experiences with us. This is partly what this forum is about – for people like you to come and dialogue, and hopefully engage in some helpful fellowship. Please consider registering by sending your request (along with your desired User Name) to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com. One of the benefits of registration is you will be able to send and receive “Private Messages” from any other registered members. I know from past experience that many people have received a lot of help from confidential communication with other forum members.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have seen a very large window of hope for us in spite of the issues swirling around us. However, I feel as though we will only grow in our relationship as God intends for us if we settle the differences between the LRC and other churches.

“A very large window of hope in spite of the issues swirling around us” – Wow, what an insightful observation by such a young man! Good for you. Whatever you do, whatever happens, do not give up this positive outlook, for it will serve you well for the rest of your life. In the meantime, I know you are in a tight situation with not much experience to draw from. Whether you realize it or not, you’ve run into one of the largest collection of well-meaning geezers on the Internet – well most of us are geezers compared to you. Though most of us are “ex” Local Church members (some of us have been out for 10-20 years), many of us still have family and or friends in the movement and keep close tabs on what’s going on in “The Lord’s Recovery”, so much of the advise you get here may not be as stale as you might think.

Now for the bad news. However, I feel as though we will only grow in our relationship as God intends for us if we settle the differences between the LRC and other churches. I am going to tell you right here, right now, that if your relationship is going to be dependent on whether or not you can settle the differences between the Local Church and other churches, you are cruzin for a bruzin. The simple truth of the matter is that the Local Church exists for, and thrives upon, their differences with other Christians and other churches – if they compromise then they lose their very reason for existence. As you may know from looking around this forum, they even reject members and churches of their own movement who would make the smallest of compromises with “Christianity”. Now, as others here have mentioned, some of this depends upon what city or region the particular church or individual is in. Also, according to what I have seen, things are “loosing up” a bit in the movement, especially in America, so time may indeed be on your side after all.

I know that the old adage “love conquers all” is not exactly biblical, but I think it may be applicable to your situation. As you may have gathered, “Christ and the Church” is more than just religious dogma to Local Church members. Though they consider themselves Christians, anything and everything to do with Christ is inextricably linked to the Church – Their Church, The Local Church, The Local Churches associated with Witness Lee. This strong link carries over into even the most intimate of human relationships. I wish I could tell you that love can even hold a candle to, much less conquer this religious mindset, but I would probably be giving you false hope. So maybe love does not conquer all, all of the time, and it may be that your love for your girlfriend will eventually conquer the wedge that this religion drives between people. I will be praying for you and her and your situation.

[ToGodAlone]

I had not intended on registering, but seeing that it is much easier to reply if you have registered, I figured what the heck. So please excuse me as I respond to everything...

As a side note, I had replied a couple times as unregistered, but clearly those posts have not shown up. In the event that they do, please excuse the redundancy of some of them. They are longer responses, however, and they do go far more in depth than what I have posted so far.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

“A very large window of hope in spite of the issues swirling around us” – Wow, what an insightful observation by such a young man! Good for you. Whatever you do, whatever happens, do not give up this positive outlook, for it will serve you well for the rest of your life. In the meantime, I know you are in a tight situation with not much experience to draw from. Whether you realize it or not, you’ve run into one of the largest collection of well-meaning geezers on the Internet – well most of us are geezers compared to you. Though most of us are “ex” Local Church members (some of us have been out for 10-20 years), many of us still have family and or friends in the movement and keep close tabs on what’s going on in “The Lord’s Recovery”, so much of the advise you get here may not be as stale as you might think.

Haha thanks for that. I don't consider myself as one likely to have profound insight on things, but it's good to know that I'm on the right track here. And if I thought your advice stale, I would have gone elsewhere. It's people with experience and insight that I was looking for, and I believe I found it here.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Now for the bad news. However, I feel as though we will only grow in our relationship as God intends for us if we settle the differences between the LRC and other churches. I am going to tell you right here, right now, that if your relationship is going to be dependent on whether or not you can settle the differences between the Local Church and other churches, you are cruzin for a bruzin. The simple truth of the matter is that the Local Church exists for, and thrives upon, their differences with other Christians and other churches – if they compromise then they lose their very reason for existence. As you may know from looking around this forum, they even reject members and churches of their own movement who would make the smallest of compromises with “Christianity”. Now, as others here have mentioned, some of this depends upon what city or region the particular church or individual is in. Also, according to what I have seen, things are “loosing up” a bit in the movement, especially in America, so time may indeed be on your side after all.

I know that the old adage “love conquers all” is not exactly biblical, but I think it may be applicable to your situation. As you may have gathered, “Christ and the Church” is more than just religious dogma to Local Church members. Though they consider themselves Christians, anything and everything to do with Christ is inextricably linked to the Church – Their Church, The Local Church, The Local Churches associated with Witness Lee. This strong link carries over into even the most intimate of human relationships. I wish I could tell you that love can even hold a candle to, much less conquer this religious mindset, but I would probably be giving you false hope. So maybe love does not conquer all, all of the time, and it may be that your love for your girlfriend will eventually conquer the wedge that this religion drives between people. I will be praying for you and her and your situation.

I know that the LRC thrives on the differences, but the key here is that SHE doesn't. The differences bother her. I don't know how much or how strongly she believes in the differences of the LRC vs everyone else, but I do know that they bother her at least. Whether or not she still thinks the LRC as superior is unknown to me, though I am inclined to think that she still has the "LRC is superior to all" mentality. Again, I attribute this to her lifetime involvement within the LRC rather than something that has manifested of her own thoughts and beliefs.

An LC girl I know met her husband-to-be in a bar, while she was in a spiritual slump. They got married and then she decided to get spiritually healthy again. Where did she want to go, having returned to Christ? Why, the church in so-and-so, of course. Poor dude. He didn't know what hit him. Some people only have to deal with marrying into a difficult set of in-laws. This guy got that and more...a truckload of beliefs and practices, a sectarian network of churches, and a world of weird. Last time I saw him, he was loading a U-Haul, having been caught up in a wife-led expedition to "the Lord's move to _______________." Reminded me of a Venus flytrap scenario.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Mordecai

An LC girl I know met her husband-to-be in a bar, while she was in a spiritual slump. They got married and then she decided to get spiritually healthy again. Where did she want to go, having returned to Christ? Why, the church in so-and-so, of course. Poor dude. He didn't know what hit him. Some people only have to deal with marrying into a difficult set of in-laws. This guy got that and more...a truckload of beliefs and practices, a sectarian network of churches, and a world of weird. Last time I saw him, he was loading a U-Haul, having been caught up in a wife-led expedition to "the Lord's move to _______________." Reminded me of a Venus flytrap scenario.

This would make a good premise for a TV series, or at least a mini-series! LOL Not sure if it would be a comedy, a drama, or a thriller!

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by Terry

Up to a certain point I agree with OBW. A sister as the unregistered brother posted on, how deep is her commitment? Is the church in xxxxx the assembly she was brought up and goes because that's her Christian environment or is she one who has already intended/planned to attend FTTA following college?
I've seen sisters raised in the local churches who married brothers from outside the local churches. Key from my perspective was commitment to the relationship first or commitment to the churchlife first? Whichever the case, it is a human reaction for her to be defensive about the assembly she meets with. Same can be said where you meet or where I meet. It's not denominational, but in the local churches it is received as denominational.

Guess what I'm getting after is where is the time commitment? If it's the local church functions (college age meetings, college age prayer meetings, conferences, trainings, etc), the ministry Living Stream Ministry publishes, etc that is her commitment, in my honest opinion a relationship would only work with one also in a likeminded commitment.
If the time commitment is to the relationship first and local church functions second, there is hope. There is hope for a relationship and a fellowship based on being a brother and sister in Christ.

I guess I partially touched on her commitment in my above post. Concerning her time commitment, it's mostly to me, but she attends all these functions anyway out of necessity. Her parents are close to some of the elders (maybe not close, but they have contact with and will most likely not hesitate to do so if she were to not attend several events) and as such, finding out that she was not going to these events (especially because of me) would not go so well. That said, she still enjoys going to most of these things regardless of whether or not I agree with them. So I guess the semi complicated answer is that she's committed to them out of necessity, but she would be committed regardless. That sounds paradoxical in some ways, but I'm sure someone will understand...