I Tell The Truth!

So RK, did the last message to conclude the memorial day conference. Alot of stuff was repeated from past conferences and trainings. But his concluding word fits here. He said if you didn't attend the 6 messages of the conference in person or online and used the Friday through Monday for your self personal reasons then God has no way to grow in, work in and use you.

Basically, a repeat from a few months ago when saints reported social media posts of other saints outside the meetings to the elders. Wow. And one woman that spoke afterwards at the mic was so bothered that her family hasn't come into the church.

[Trapped]

Thanks for the insight into how the local church is these days. Gosh, I cannot understand why someone's family would not have joined a church that claims God can't do anything unless you sacrifice spending time with your family the entire Memorial Day weekend to sit in their chairs hearing how incapable God is of doing things!

Originally Posted by Trapped

Thanks for the insight into how the local church is these days. Gosh, I cannot understand why someone's family would not have joined a church that claims God can't do anything unless you sacrifice spending time with your family the entire Memorial Day weekend to sit in their chairs hearing how incapable God is of doing things!

Each training and conference I go into wanting to gain God. But then almost immediately it turns into condemnation in order for you to gain God. I'm a church kid so I have heard all of it.

Most of the messages were on the tree of life. Whether you are living life instead of right and wrong or good and bad. Whether you are in the light and have peace or if you are in darkness and are dead. And of course if Christ is living and being expressed and magnified or if it's the self, flesh and the old man.

I don't need to go into the details but I don't know how they knit pick and intrude on almost everything in your life. One testimony a brother said I need to ask God for permission if I have life and peace to buy a cup of coffee. I have heard another saint before go to the extreme of getting permission from God to use the bathroom. No joking but seriously.

And also since this thread is on the 1000 years. It is said you get 1000 years if you're not a overcomer and mature. The definition of overcomer changes often. They said a over is the weakest who can't do anything on they own and trusts and depends on God completely for everything.

[Trapped]

Are you a church kid that is old enough to be able to leave if you want to? Do you want to leave or do you want to stay?

I ask just because when you state that it's "condemnation in order for you to gain God".....I just.....all I can think of is that they are sewing the veil back up that was rent when Jesus died. The Bible says "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free". God sent His Son to die so that the veil would be torn and we would FREELY have access to the holy place, and yet what many people call the "ministry of condemnation" in the local church puts all kinds of crushing and condemnatory barriers on people instead. They're.....working against the death of Christ at this point.

Any church that regularly despises discerning truth from a lie, discerning good from evil, discerning right from wrong is frankly just the scariest place I can think of. And this is a core and repeated doctrine in the Lord's Recovery. One forum member posted a while back that they actually said that "good is worse than evil because good is deceptive". The local church is a place that teaches that EVIL IS BETTER THAN GOOD!!!! *faints*

Your descriptions of their being trapped into "oh no can I even go get a cup of coffee"....man, they are some of the least free Christians I can think of these days. But this is what you get from a place that teaches that "death is behind good", and so even normal non-sinful good things like a cup of coffee all of sudden becomes something you are in fear about. Although the journey after leaving is hard, I'm soooooo glad to be out of such a suffocating place!

I remember when I was younger sitting in the meetings hearing about being an overcomer, they told us "if you think you are overcoming, you probably are not, and if you do not think you are overcoming, you probably are." I remember being so fed up with God (the "God" they presented) thinking "this overcomer business is the biggest thing each of us face, and yet all we have to go by is "your status is probably the opposite of however you feel"??? This is a losing game!" The God they often taught there was a fickle, capricious God just looking to trip you up at any turn.

I hope you are able to get some Christian encouragement from SOME place, wherever you can get it. Thanks again for keeping us updated. Keep it coming whenever you feel like it.

Trapped

Yes I'm old enough to leave. But the second you do the news will spread quickly to the saints. And, you will be prayed about to be recovered. Certain saints will immediately contact you and try to get together with you subtle to shepherd you back.

There is so much talk of destruction of the self, old man, flesh. They say that those that God loves He chastises. And, that Satan causes the suffering, but that God allows it because those that suffer most likely won't sin. But that God is allowing it to happen so you will gain Him to lose the natural man and flesh to gain Him. And, most importantly because He loves you.

They mock and criticize Christianity for not preaching this. And say we need to confess and repent moment by moment for not being in the spirit and living and expressing Christ. It's very hard to comprehend and accept.

[LeftLR]

I was in Anaheim for about 3 years (2006 to 2009), the similar message was "preached" over and over again. I am no longer with LSM / LC / LR.

Their preach can not and will not escape the "Though process of witness lee".
They tried to "talk" to me or even use my wife to "force" me back with them. LSM has been telling my wife and her family "If you leave LSM / LR, You will lose salvation and God will deny you when you dead." A LR's senior member who is very very close to the core of LSM told me: If you keep reject MOTA and the greatest teaching of LR, you will be deny by God when you dead and you are going to hell." I asked him to show me where is the Bible has these message, he kept refer to Life Study material and same message as RK talked about.

Lord's Recovery is a CULT .

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

Yes I'm old enough to leave. But the second you do the news will spread quickly to the saints. And, you will be prayed about to be recovered. Certain saints will immediately contact you and try to get together with you subtle to shepherd you back.

Yeah, I understand. If you leave and are stepping into nothing and with no one, it is an understatement to say it is difficult. In other words, if you leave and everyone you ever knew is still in the group you left, then leaving can be a desolate and turbulent journey, at least at first.

I'm one of the people who don't have a problem calling the local church a cult, and this stuff - news spreading quickly that you have left, being prayed about, being contacted to try to "recover" you - is just the stuff you have to deal with when leaving a cult. It wouldn't be a cult you need to leave if these weren't part of the characteristics of leaving. These things are exactly why some people decide to leave, lol..... On my part, I know there are false things said about me, but it's like, those things are a symptom of the group, not anything I need to concern myself with. But it took me some time to get to the point of "not caring".

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

There is so much talk of destruction of the self, old man, flesh. They say that those that God loves He chastises. And, that Satan causes the suffering, but that God allows it because those that suffer most likely won't sin. But that God is allowing it to happen so you will gain Him to lose the natural man and flesh to gain Him. And, most importantly because He loves you.

One big problem I have with this kind of talk is it tends to trap people in a state of passive inaction when things happen in their life that they otherwise would feel free to take steps to change. Like, an abusive boss at work becomes "God is allowing this so I lose my natural man" and they spend months or years suffering "in the name of God", when the truth is really, "um, this is a place I need to leave for my mental health to find a safer place to work, and I don't need to feel bad for one second for doing so". It takes personal agency out of the picture and has the real potential to cause unnecessary damage. The local church doesn't often provide disclaimers or nuance when they make these heavy crushing statements..... Also, too many things are called "the flesh" in the local church when it isn't really the flesh at all. Only a portion of the things they call "the flesh" or "worldly" or "sinful" are actually of the flesh, or worldly, or sinful.

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

They mock and criticize Christianity for not preaching this. And say we need to confess and repent moment by moment for not being in the spirit and living and expressing Christ. It's very hard to comprehend and accept.

Ok, like what you say here is a good example. The Bible is clear about what sins are, about what the commandments are. "Thou shalt be in the spirit and live and express Christ every single moment" is not one of them. Right now I'm sitting on my couch with the TV paused, typing a comment. Am I or am I not "expressing Christ"? No idea. Not sure that there is a way to do that right now. If I get unreasonably angry or terse with someone that I shouldn't, sure, I should confess and repent for not "expressing Christ", but this constant self-whipping that the local church seems to preach that you should constantly confess and repent that you are not somehow bursting forth with the shekinah glory of God every millisecond of every day is just not the state of abject condemnation that God has brought us into. I would encourage you NOT to accept much of what they are teaching, or at a minimum, to continue making sure you test what they say and to keep turning it over and examining it before you do accept it.

Not sure if any of what I'm saying is helpful, but if it is, seriously, anything else you need help figuring out, or "they said this but it doesn't make sense, help", please feel free to bring it up. The forum admins broke your posts out into its own thread, so this is YOUR thread as far as I'm concerned.

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by LeftLR

I was in Anaheim for about 3 years (2006 to 2009), the similar message was "preached" over and over again. I am no longer with LSM / LC / LR.

Their preach can not and will not escape the "Though process of witness lee".
They tried to "talk" to me or even use my wife to "force" me back with them. LSM has been telling my wife and her family "If you leave LSM / LR, You will lose salvation and God will deny you when you dead." A LR's senior member who is very very close to the core of LSM told me: If you keep reject MOTA and the greatest teaching of LR, you will be deny by God when you dead and you are going to hell." I asked him to show me where is the Bible has these message, he kept refer to Life Study material and same message as RK talked about.

Lord's Recovery is a CULT .

I totally agree the Lord's Recovery is a cult. I'm not about to speak for God, but in reading your post, all I can see is God denying THEM for making following Witness Lee a requirement for salvation. It's like they are getting more and more grotesque as the years go by.

It sounds like you are out, but your wife is still in, is that the case? Or is your wife on her way out, but held back by their threatening lies? How are you doing and how is she doing?

Trapped

Thanks trapped,

Your common sense is very helpful. Ron shared last week in the conference that saints will take and enjoy the nice messages, but when it comes to the cross, flesh, natural man, right and wrong, sense of life and death that saints will reject and not hear it. Because it's not nice. Lee even said Christianity is devilish because they won't preach and accept the cross and therefore they're trapped in not decreasing and God increasing. And, that in the church there is only the cross where you're natural man needs to die and it has to be enjoyable and sweet to you along to God.

I use to accept all this because it sounded good that God wanted to replace all that you we're but then I started thinking.
I accepted it because I believed so many people were the problem in the world and not the expression of God. And that if I changed I could be part of God's move to end the age. Also be a overcomer, escape the 1000 year punishment. But then it really started getting to the extreme and somewhat silly. And almost every message is a warning of what will happen if you leave the way of the recovery or don't mature. Just too much to list.

The coworkers have repeated the story of someone who left the church for over 30 years. Brother Lee saw him in a Chinese restaurant after all those years. Lee concluded that the brother had not matured in life because he still loved Chinese food and was laughing and joking and not somber that he was going to die soon. I don't think God will disqlify him purely based on that.

I wanted to add something that opened my eyes as well. The churches teaches that they're being transformed but are they being controlled by the teachings? A sister wanted to get married to a brother from the FTTA because there is pressure for brothers and sisters to get married by a certain age. The sister said she didn't even know if she liked the brother. But, then they go to a couples house for dinner and then the couple gets feedback. It's also a huge deal and a no go if one side won't take the way of the ministry completely.

Also, this talk of people outside the church wasting their life and saints no making every meeting wasting their life without a good excuse is mind boggling.

[LeftLR]

Thank you Trapped, my wife still in LOVE with "Lord's Recovery" so her family too.


They saved all "HWMR" and all "conference materials", because very high ranked person said: "You have to keep reading these materials / messages, which has highest Truth of Godspel and use these as a way to spread Gods Word and bring people to LR." During the time in Anaheim, I observed those very high ranked people within LR, their Bible is very New, look like just bought, then I find out, they only bring it to the meeting for "show", they do not even "read it or open it" but they required everyone to buy one and ONLY buy Recovery version. "Other version of Bible does not have the Truth and detailed footnote as Recovery version. If anyone have a non-Recovery version of Bible, you need burn it or put into trash, because it's trash." This is a direct message to me when i meet one of very high ranked person in LR.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by LeftLR

Thank you Trapped, my wife still in LOVE with "Lord's Recovery" so her family too.


They saved all "HWMR" and all "conference materials", because very high ranked person said: "You have to keep reading these materials / messages, which has highest Truth of Godspel and use these as a way to spread Gods Word and bring people to LR." During the time in Anaheim, I observed those very high ranked people within LR, their Bible is very New, look like just bought, then I find out, they only bring it to the meeting for "show", they do not even "read it or open it" but they required everyone to buy one and ONLY buy Recovery version. "Other version of Bible does not have the Truth and detailed footnote as Recovery version. If anyone have a non-Recovery version of Bible, you need burn it or put into trash, because it's trash." This is a direct message to me when i meet one of very high ranked person in LR.

My first two meetings that I ever attended in the LC, the biggest thing that bothered me was that not a single person in there opened or read anything out of the Bible. They where all reading out of these booklets, which I later found out were HWMRs.
I asked someone about that, and they said, “we probably should do a better job to at least open a Bible by the person who introduced the topic of this weeks HWMR, so we don’t stumble anyone like you”.
But what’s even more amazing and frightening, is that after knowing and seeing all this “show”, I was blinded and deceived that somehow it was “a real deal”.

[Timotheist]

What does HWMR mean?

Edit: I looked it up. Those were not around in the 80's. "Crystallization-Study"? I guess "Life-Study" was too controversial?

It stands for holy word for morning revival. Which is a summary of past recent conferences and training messages. One week you cover one message which has 6 days from Monday to Saturday. And then you share from that week's message on Sunday.

Originally Posted by Timotheist

What does HWMR mean?

Edit: I looked it up. Those were not around in the 80's. "Crystallization-Study"? I guess "Life-Study" was too controversial?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

What does HWMR mean?

Edit: I looked it up. Those were not around in the 80's. "Crystallization-Study"? I guess "Life-Study" was too controversial?

There was a succession. First diverse conferences. Then LifeStudies from ‘74-‘84. Then Crystalization Study. Then WL died. Then HWMR. Gotta keep buying books.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There was a succession. First diverse conferences. Then LifeStudies from ‘74-‘84. Then Crystalization Study. Then WL died. Then HWMR. Gotta keep buying books.

That’s right,
It’s the disease and a mark of every human made system. They always want to sell you something “new and updated”. Mr. Microsoft has made a killing with selling “updates”, rather than fixing the system for 45 years. Guess what, so is the iPhones and all the rest of their systems. Sell, sell, sell! But what’s even more unfortunate, that there are buyers out there who are willing to pay for it.
LC and LSM exist for the same reason that all other business exist, that really have nothing new to offer, other than a different wrap. RK the main editor of all these books look like, and is a “copy and paste expert”. There haven’t been a new thought or actual study of the Bible conducted in this scam during and since both inventors of it died. Guess what, you just keep rewrapping the same garbage into different covers, and offer it as “new leadings of the blenders”. Someone will buy it, that’s what they count on, and they sure have the spirit aiding them in their efforts.

[HERn]

Quote from Paul Vusik. “ Someone will buy it, that’s what they count on, and they sure have the spirit aiding them in their efforts.”

I wonder which spirit is doing the aiding?

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by HERn

I wonder which spirit is doing the aiding?

HERn,


I believe that it’s the seducing spirit that’s operating there, under the guise of the Holy Spirit. I know that might sound crazy, but based on my time spent there, which is over a decade and after studying and comparing what the Holy Spirit is, and what His functions are to what I have experienced and seen, that’s the only conclusion that I can make. Besides, who their god is, who Jesus is, and all of the teachings that directly contradict the written Word.

In my own experience, after by Gods mercy and realization of what’s happening, getting freedom from this bondage and seeing things with clear and sound mind after years of what would seem to be living in the thickest fog of my life. That alone is sign enough to make one realize that something wasn’t right, big time. I’ve seen many people who will blame everyone and everything around them, but fail to look at the elephant in the room, that is a main culprit behind that deception and seduction.

Mere admission of the fact that one could have possibly been duped or scammed, makes people want to run for cover. How would people look at me, or what would they think of me, pigeonholes them into a state of panic and makes them just be ok with the status quo. There is very little to no teachings that are offered to people here in the western world about this, or even dismissed as to no longer exist. It’s very difficult to even find someone to even consider these things as present and extremely active today in many movements.

I would challenge people to start looking into at all things from spiritual perspective first, testing everything against the written Word of God, and maybe some puzzles that have been unsolved for decades will finally come together.

Ephesians 6:12
King James Version
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

Thanks trapped,

Your common sense is very helpful. Ron shared last week in the conference that saints will take and enjoy the nice messages, but when it comes to the cross, flesh, natural man, right and wrong, sense of life and death that saints will reject and not hear it. Because it's not nice. Lee even said Christianity is devilish because they won't preach and accept the cross and therefore they're trapped in not decreasing and God increasing. And, that in the church there is only the cross where you're natural man needs to die and it has to be enjoyable and sweet to you along to God.

I use to accept all this because it sounded good that God wanted to replace all that you we're but then I started thinking.
I accepted it because I believed so many people were the problem in the world and not the expression of God. And that if I changed I could be part of God's move to end the age. Also be a overcomer, escape the 1000 year punishment. But then it really started getting to the extreme and somewhat silly. And almost every message is a warning of what will happen if you leave the way of the recovery or don't mature. Just too much to list.

While I know the Bible speaks of "taking up your cross", and in Galatians Paul says "I am crucified with Christ"...I think the local church somehow multiplies this out into some kind of lifelong minute-after-minute existence of actively being crucified all the time in our daily life.

But it's like......wait a minute. I thought Christ went to the cross to take our place? I thought He went to the cross so we wouldn't have to? What is this thing about "living a life of the cross"? This seems to be like a "thanks Jesus for dying on the cross for me, but if you don't mind I'm gonna climb up on one too, you know, and just stay here my whole life" thing. There seems to be some disconnect.

When Jesus speaks of "taking up your cross and follow me", he said this to the disciples right after telling them that he would be mistreated, and then killed, and then raised 3 days later. Like, He's going to the actual cross and actually dying. Then, after He rebukes Peter for not setting his mind on the things of God, Jesus then turns to His disciples and tells them this - if any of them would come after Him, let them take up their cross and follow Him.

But "to take up a cross" back then meant only one thing - to carry your cross in order to be nailed to it and die upon it. It meant actual death. Not allegorical death or spiritual death. It wasn't some metaphorical burden or hardship they carried and bore. It did not mean "carry around a cross for your whole life" or "hang on the cross in every situation for the rest of your life". To be perfectly honest, I don't know exactly what I think it means. I mean, Jesus is speaking to His disciples specifically, not to the church as a whole. I don't know. But I do think the local church has shifted what it means in order to press a heavy psychological burden on the saints' everyday lives.

Also, for the record, "He must increase and I must decrease" was John the Baptist specifically speaking of the impact of his own ministry decreasing because Jesus had showed up on the scene. John was just pointing to the One coming, and once Jesus came, John was to step back. There isn't really anything, at least that I can see, in the Bible that says, "this is a metaphorical lesson that means each of us has to disappear and Christ has to take over." There is a weird thought in the local church that God only loves the Christ in us, and for us to remain accepted, somehow we have to exist as little as we can, and only Christ is the one God wants to see. But.......God made us. He actually made each of us individually. It makes no sense to make billions of varied human beings if all He wants to see is.....as little of those human beings as possible! We are being conformed to the image of the Son of God, but it doesn't mean that we, or who we are, somehow disappears. We are God's many sons, not God's one Son repeated in many bodies.

Remember, God loved us so much He sent His Son to die for us, which means God loved us before Christ was in us. Christ wasn't in us at that point. It was 100% us and 0% Christ in us at that point.....and God still loved us so much He sent His Son to the cross for us. To think that God then wants us to disappear is another silly local church thought that really downplays the love God has for us.

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

The coworkers have repeated the story of someone who left the church for over 30 years. Brother Lee saw him in a Chinese restaurant after all those years. Lee concluded that the brother had not matured in life because he still loved Chinese food and was laughing and joking and not somber that he was going to die soon. I don't think God will disqlify him purely based on that.

This is another example of the "ministry of condemnation" in the local church. On what biblical grounds does Lee conclude that someone who enjoys Chinese food and laughs and jokes is not "matured in life"? It's completely absurd. This is the kind of "human rules" that Jesus talked about regarding the legalistic Jews, etc.... They condemned others for not holding to their own restrictive traditions and rules, which were not actual requirements of the law. Witness Lee is applying his own "human rules" here to determine the spiritual maturity of a brother. But the characteristics he uses to make his determination have zero biblical basis whatsoever. Being sober-MINDED does not mean you are a serious, somber, grave, unsmiling, frowny Christian. I'm just shaking my head here as I type this. Honestly, as a church kid, no wonder I had such a hard time feeling so bad all the time!

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

I wanted to add something that opened my eyes as well. The churches teaches that they're being transformed but are they being controlled by the teachings? A sister wanted to get married to a brother from the FTTA because there is pressure for brothers and sisters to get married by a certain age. The sister said she didn't even know if she liked the brother. But, then they go to a couples house for dinner and then the couple gets feedback. It's also a huge deal and a no go if one side won't take the way of the ministry completely.

Also, this talk of people outside the church wasting their life and saints no making every meeting wasting their life without a good excuse is mind boggling.

The meddling of the local church into people's marriage and pre-marriage lives has caused much, much damage.......that's all I have the heart to say on that.

If you spend your life in all the meetings, then that is nothing more than hiding your light under a bushel. Zero positive impact on the world, which sorely needs the light to shine in it. Christians are a gathering people, yes, but it is undeniable that believers are supposed to be mixed in among those in the world, not gathered off the side in a non-descript hall sitting on golden chairs hearing the same old words from one man who's teachings weren't remotely biblical half the time......

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by LeftLR

Thank you Trapped, my wife still in LOVE with "Lord's Recovery" so her family too.

They saved all "HWMR" and all "conference materials", because very high ranked person said: "You have to keep reading these materials / messages, which has highest Truth of Godspel and use these as a way to spread Gods Word and bring people to LR." During the time in Anaheim, I observed those very high ranked people within LR, their Bible is very New, look like just bought, then I find out, they only bring it to the meeting for "show", they do not even "read it or open it" but they required everyone to buy one and ONLY buy Recovery version. "Other version of Bible does not have the Truth and detailed footnote as Recovery version. If anyone have a non-Recovery version of Bible, you need burn it or put into trash, because it's trash." This is a direct message to me when i meet one of very high ranked person in LR.

Yes, I have heard others describe their family members who are still in the LR as "enamored" with it also. "This high peak" and "that up-to-date vision" and "the critical and crucial words regarding our present situation" really do a good job of keeping people running after the latest thing.

I'm sorry about your situation. It must be hard. To see the Lord's Recovery for what it is - a cult - and still need to get along with a spouse who is in love with the cult.......there is nothing easy about that. Do you mind if I ask - does your wife know anything Christian outside the Lord's Recovery? In other words, is she in love with it because she believes it's "the best" because it's all she knows? Or is she in love with it because she "touched the church life" after being discouraged by some situation in "Christianity"? Those are two different types of being in love/trapped.

I just can't believe how blatantly these "God's deputy authorities" call the Bible "trash" if it doesn't have their "god" Witness Lee's words attached to it. The Bible tells us that Jesus is the truth.....and yet their true belief is that Witness Lee is the one who brings the truth. It's unbelievable how deceptive they are at flowering up their idolatrous beliefs.

Trapped

[Bible-believer]

I had a strong argument with church members regarding the book of Revelation this morning. I gave up arguing with them for no end. Lee's teachings have replaced the Bible itself in LR. They would hold onto Lee's comments for they "think" they "can't" understand what the Bible says without Lee's help.


It's No Use, To Tell the Truth in LR.

Yet, I feel sad for those who are newly recruited to LR. "Under Lee's help," they may lose the chance to know the Bible themselves.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

I had a strong argument with church members regarding the book of Revelation this morning. I gave up arguing with them for no end. Lee's teachings have replaced the Bible itself in LR. They would hold onto Lee's comments for they "think" they "can't" understand what the Bible says without Lee's help.


It's No Use, To Tell the Truth in LR.

Yet, I feel sad for those who are newly recruited to LR. "Under Lee's help," they may lose the chance to know the Bible themselves.

I shared something on a Bible verse with someone from LC, but was texted back, “I don’t want to hear any other interpretations that are divisive, which are not of the LC. Plus, when you have or see differently, you are most likely under the influence of satan. I have cut off all communications with some other brother who offered me different views before, so just be careful what you send out”
I haven’t send another text regarding any spiritual maters to that person since. Hard to believe, but the reality speaks for itself. Total isolation and total mindless existence.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Total isolation and total mindless existence.

Indeed. I once asked a member "Is there any difference between accepting Lee's teachings without doubt from JWs accepting everything from their elders?" She answered no.
That answer surprised me even more.

[LeftLR]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

I shared something on a Bible verse with someone from LC, but was texted back, “I don’t want to hear any other interpretations that are divisive, which are not of the LC. Plus, when you have or see differently, you are most likely under the influence of satan. I have cut off all communications with some other brother who offered me different views before, so just be careful what you send out”
I haven’t send another text regarding any spiritual maters to that person since. Hard to believe, but the reality speaks for itself. Total isolation and total mindless existence.

Thank you for your sharing, Paul


Not only LC / LR people dose not want to "listen" other non-LR's message, I find out they do not read Bible . .or should i say their main focus is Witness Lee's message and thought which for them is greater then Bible.
I personally know some pastors in mid-west of USA has been threaten by LR / LC's "missionaries" and interrupt their bible study. I even heard LR people telling other new believers that if you walk away MOTA / LR, You will be abound by Jesus Christ / God and your salvation will be taken away and you will be in Hell.
For those LR /LC people, Please let me know where in the Bible tells about leaving LR is disobey God.

I don't know how old most of you are but did you hear of the burnings. They used the reference of gehenna fire for completely clearing in the past after you come into the church. They also you the reference of crushing idols. I don't think the saints are too crazy now. But, those that have 40 years in still are. Even when they tell the stories. I don't have 40 years in.

Anyways, in Anaheim I don't know if they did it elsewhere but they would hold barn fires and newly people that had come into the church would bring many things and burn them. One use to play many sports so he burned all his sports equipment. When his friends invited him to play he turned them down and said I just care to hear and learn about God.

One more thing. The trainings use to be longer than 12 messages and weren't around the holidays. Some saints were so psyched up they would threaten to quit their jobs or actually did. After the revelation training WL found out that saints had quit their jobs and were only cleaning swimming pools or unemployed. He then held a special fellowship and said the saints needed to go to college to get a career or skill because God was not returning if they didn't properly make their beds in the morning.

[LeftLR]

What I mentioned was happened in between 2008 to 2011. I heard LR had some sort of "Burn meeting" as what LR people said "Bible based teaching" which is not correct.

I witnessed few very talented men and women follows exactly what LR's teaching / went to training and go out to spared the "mission of Lrod's Recovery". After all they do for Lord's Recovery / LSM, they can not find any jobs and leading brothers told them they need find a job to support LSM.
I am very troubled an feel sorry for these people been left out by LSM and i knew few of them left Lord's Recovery and went to Seminary School and full supported by NON-LR churches.
I am no longer with LR / LC / LSM or whatever the "name" they are now.
One thing for sure, when I die, I will face God / Jesus Christ, not Witness Lee.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by LeftLR

What I mentioned was happened in between 2008 to 2011. I heard LR had some sort of "Burn meeting" as what LR people said "Bible based teaching" which is not correct.

It is Bible based, in acts 19 you can see a similar event.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

I don't know how old most of you are but did you hear of the burnings. They used the reference of gehenna fire for completely clearing in the past after you come into the church. They also you the reference of crushing idols. I don't think the saints are too crazy now. But, those that have 40 years in still are. Even when they tell the stories. I don't have 40 years in.

Anyways, in Anaheim I don't know if they did it elsewhere but they would hold barn fires and newly people that had come into the church would bring many things and burn them. One use to play many sports so he burned all his sports equipment. When his friends invited him to play he turned them down and said I just care to hear and learn about God.
7
One more thing. The trainings use to be longer than 12 messages and weren't around the holidays. Some saints were so psyched up they would threaten to quit their jobs or actually did. After the revelation training WL found out that saints had quit their jobs and were only cleaning swimming pools or unemployed. He then held a special fellowship and said the saints needed to go to college to get a career or skill because God was not returning if they didn't properly make their beds in the morning.

I attended 2 “burning meetings” in Houston in the early days. I still regret a few things I felt pressured to burn. I now know that the Lord did not require me to burn anything. It was all about the LC establishing control.

Nell

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

I attended 2 “burning meetings” in Houston in the early days. I still regret a few things I felt pressured to burn. I now know that the Lord did not require me to burn anything. It was all about the LC establishing control.

Nell

Oh I didn’t realize it was portrayed as some sort of requirement to meet God’s approval. I withdraw my comment on the practice being biblical. While it is in the Bible, there is no text that says it’s required.

In the college trainings, we would have a bonfire meeting where the genders were separated. At the end of the singing time, we all wrote down things on a piece of paper that we are “giving up” or “giving” to the lord. We then threw those pieces of paper in the fire and prayed intensely that the Lord would burn those things away..

[I tell the truth]

I want to comment on the genders being separated. This has been a long standing practice. Summer School of The truth which is a week long Bible camp is separate. At regular meetings boys and girls, males and females they don't really mingle.

In fact, males and females are prohibited from riding together separate. The ministry uses the concept of appearance of evil that you can stumble the saints or make them suspect that you two are doing something sinful. And also if males and females get too friendly the flesh will rise up to make them be sinful.

Yesterday, a new one was condemning himself in the meeting about being attracted to females. As he was pouring out his heart testimony a elder told him to wrap it up as they were short on time. The brother said nothing explicit.

Originally Posted by Zezima

Oh I didn’t realize it was portrayed as some sort of requirement to meet God’s approval. I withdraw my comment on the practice being biblical. While it is in the Bible, there is no text that says it’s required.

In the college trainings, we would have a bonfire meeting where the genders were separated. At the end of the singing time, we all wrote down things on a piece of paper that we are “giving up” or “giving” to the lord. We then threw those pieces of paper in the fire and prayed intensely that the Lord would burn those things away..

[I tell the truth]

I have a been a church kid all my life. Throughout my years I have been on and off but still continued meeting because my parents have been in it for a very longtime. And, would flip if I left. But, I have have not really been reading the ministry nor testifying for awhile. In which leading brothers have then called me out in the meetings and tried to get me to speak while they have a big smile on their face trying to embarrass you but they say they're encouraging. Talk about God giving you a freewill but not them.

My eyes really opened when the pandemic began. And, I saw different reactions from saints, elders and coworkers. But I won't go into those. As there are many other reasons that I heard before but didn't think much off.

During one message James brought up Jo. It has been 2 years afterwards. He was trying to make a point that a demon possessed her to write a letter. I remembered the letter two years ago and went to read it. I saw nothing wrong. I then found the special fellowship of Minoru and others in which they made a big deal of the letter and then didn't. And, the contradicted themselves many times.

Im going to make this post short. But, why do the elders and coworkers and then pass it on to the saints to make a big deal of and judge other peoples' lives when it simply has no effect on them. I think you know where I'm going. But I don't see how saints can say they're getting transformed. But then say people are wasting their lives, stupid, blind, in the world, of the flesh and in some cases going to the lake of fire.

There are many reasons that I could keep going on. But one more. The attack on other Christians. They say in Christianity they try to make you somebody by giving you a position. But then it kills your function and deadens your spirit. So you need to come to the church to be the nobody that you actually are and have a function and enliven your spirit. Some leading brothers actually stood up and screamed Hallelujah that we're nobody's and laughed. Which I found strange and bizarre. I'm starting to see things that don't make sense and arent right. However, the ministry tries to defend this that Jesus isn't only the Savior but the Judge.

I'm going to go to my local labor day conference and try to see if I can get anything from or tolerate it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

There are many reasons that I could keep going on. But one more. The attack on other Christians. They say in Christianity they try to make you somebody by giving you a position. But then it kills your function and deadens your spirit. So you need to come to the church to be the nobody that you actually are and have a function and enliven your spirit. Some leading brothers actually stood up and screamed Hallelujah that we're nobody's and laughed. Which I found strange and bizarre. I'm starting to see things that don't make sense and arent right. However, the ministry tries to defend this that Jesus isn't only the Savior but the Judge.

Try to think this one thru as you attend the Labor Day Conf:

Normally they condemn all outside Christians as helplessly, hopelessly divided, but occasionally they condemn all outside Christians for trying to be special in Christ.

Normally they boast in the Recovery, but occasionally they rejoice in being nobody.

Everyday, without exception, they boast in Witness Lee.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

why do the elders and coworkers and then pass it on to the saints to make a big deal of and judge other peoples' lives when it simply has no effect on them. I think you know where I'm going. But I don't see how saints can say they're getting transformed. But then say people are wasting their lives, stupid, blind, in the world, of the flesh and in some cases going to the lake of fire.

There are many reasons that I could keep going on. But one more. The attack on other Christians. They say in Christianity they try to make you somebody by giving you a position. But then it kills your function and deadens your spirit.

The answer is because the very ministry they follow produces this sort of fruit.

You can ask “Why” all day, but when it comes down to it regardless of the answer, they still do it.

There’s tons of Christian groups that don’t do these things. What’s good about The Recovery isn’t unique, what’s unique about the Recovery isn’t good.

[I tell the truth]

I have been going to the conferences since I was very little and each year the same saints are there month and year after year. As many of you know the LC, is not like other churches. They say it's the church life. Throughout the week you read the ministry and attend meetings other than Sunday. In fact, the words Sunday and going to church are forbidden.

As I mentioned, saints various reactions to the pandemic caused me to realize many things. And one of the main reasons is constantly judging and getting bothered with other people. And always saying the world, flesh, self. Etc. They say Christ has freed you, but then say you're imprisoned. I don't see freedom at all.

I have considered many times to leave for many reasons. But you have to realize parents in the local church think you're then going to go through the great tribulation and headed for the 1000 years if you're not under this ministry. And the elders and co workers say you're being your own God and head. I've been in many prayer meetings where they pray to recover child that have left. After praying certain saints then contact them after many years and try to do lunch or dinner.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

I have considered many times to leave for many reasons. But you have to realize parents in the local church think you're then going to go through the great tribulation and headed for the 1000 years if you're not under this ministry. And the elders and co workers say you're being your own God and head. I've been in many prayer meetings where they pray to recover child that have left. After praying certain saints then contact them after many years and try to do lunch or dinner.

Hello, I tell the truth,

I guess the question here is do you think you are going for 1000 year punishment if you don't listen to Witness Lee?

If you do NOT think that -- then this is like saying, "I would leave an abusive relationship, but the abusers friends tell me that I will be hit by a car if I leave the abuser." The lies that come out of liars mouths shouldn't be a deterrent to your doing the right thing.

If you DO think that -- then this is like saying Witness Lee is a requirement for a major aspect of your Christian life.....and yet.....can you provide any support from the Bible for that belief?

The elders and co-workers can say whatever they want to say; it doesn't make it true if it's a lie or if it contradicts the Bible. You have to discern for yourself. If you are following God OUT of the local church, then you are not being your own God, and they are just trying to manipulate you.

Eventually I had to make peace with the realization that I can't stop people from talking about me or praying for me even in ways I don't want. They are responsible for their words, not you. Do you think their prayers to bring you back to an imprisoning church situation will override God's will or God's care for you? I don't. Those kind of prayers are nothing to worry about, as far as I'm concerned.

Trapped

[Nell]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

I have been going to the conferences since I was very little and each year the same saints are there month and year after year. As many of you know the LC, is not like other churches. They say it's the church life. Throughout the week you read the ministry and attend meetings other than Sunday. In fact, the words Sunday and going to church are forbidden.

As I mentioned, saints various reactions to the pandemic caused me to realize many things. And one of the main reasons is constantly judging and getting bothered with other people. And always saying the world, flesh, self. Etc. They say Christ has freed you, but then say you're imprisoned. I don't see freedom at all.

I have considered many times to leave for many reasons. But you have to realize parents in the local church think you're then going to go through the great tribulation and headed for the 1000 years if you're not under this ministry. And the elders and co workers say you're being your own God and head. I've been in many prayer meetings where they pray to recover child that have left. After praying certain saints then contact them after many years and try to do lunch or dinner.

I tell the Truth,

I agree 1000% with Trapped.

This topic and your moniker is "I Tell The Truth". The bible tells us, the truth will set you free. Who in the LC is truly free? It's simple things like this that helped me. Another simple truth: "You will know them by their fruit." You have spoken clearly about the fruit of Lee's "ministry". This bad fruit is in your life as well as the lives of many who have left, and the many who are are still there. Another verse on the judgmental practices: "Judge not, that you be not judged." There are many simple verses in the Bible that clearly define truth and Christian behavior. The Local Church doesn't want you to be free. The leadership wants your soul to be enslaved to the "ministry". I know, that's harsh, but it is borne out by the fruit. The speaking from the LC leadership toward the LC faithful, which you have posted about...? This speaking is a curse.

Eventually, I came to believe that it was much easier to follow the Lord than to follow the elders.

I also came to believe that possibly the worst thing about Lee's "ministry" is that it paralyzes believers who have a heart to follow the Lord. This spiritual paralysis makes it almost impossible to obey Him instead of "them". They/we ended up trying to follow the rules and regulations of the elders, you know, the ones they say don't exist. Instead of following the Lord, we follow them; we end up believing another gospel; we end up weak in the faith. We may end up with suicidal thoughts, as the other topic is illustrating. Suicidal thoughts are demonic because of the curse spoken out of deception.

It's very difficult to hear the voice of the Lord over the voice of the deceived who themselves work to deceive others.

So what do we do? Paul said "That I may know Him...". In the middle of all the other voices, including mine, talk to Him. Tell him everything you're thinking and feeling. Tell him about things that are bothering you, like what's in your post (read your post to Him). Every time someone tells you something, ask the Lord, "Lord is that you?" "Do you want me to believe this?" Tell Him: "Lord, I think something is not right with this...I'm just not sure. I need your help."

The way to get to know someone is to talk to them. I talk to Him throughout the day as though He were my best friend. (In fact, He is my best friend.) If you think this sounds crazy...tell Him. No one really knows for sure about what the tribulation will be like. No one knows the 1000 year matter...except God Himself.

What we know about scripture is, after all, interpreted by men. Hopefully the interpretation of scripture is based on the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. That's why we are told to "test all things". Will the Holy Spirit in you agree to the interpretation/s of Witness Lee? In some cases, yes. In many more cases, not likely. Lee's "ministry" isn't always based on Scripture.

A good practice is to write down your questions, and put them on "hold". Then, ask Him "Lord, tell me what I need to know, when I need to know it." My biggest, bestest prayer is "Lord, please don't let me be deceived." I also pray often for protection from the father of Lies.

In talking to Him and knowing Him, you should have a clearer understanding on what God thinks about what's being taught in the LC. You will be able to answer Trapped's question "What do YOU think about...". We have been told what to think for so long, we pretty much don't know how to think for ourselves. We didn't learn to listen to the voice of the Lord, but the voice of another.

You may not get instant answers, but you might. You can bug Him for answers, or you can leave the timing to him. I've done both! You can trust the one who died for you.

Nell

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

The bible tells us, the truth will set you free. Who in the LC is truly free? It's simple things like this that helped me. Another simple truth: "You will know them by their fruit." You have spoken clearly about the fruit of Lee's "ministry". This bad fruit is in your life as well as the lives of many who have left, and the many who are are still there. Another verse on the judgmental practices: "Judge not, that you be not judged." There are many simple verses in the Bible that clearly define truth and Christian behavior.

Love this, the Recovery will make you rationalize the gap between the word and the ministry by stating “you just don’t see it yet” or “ you don’t have the vision”. However, the Bible is clear. If there is any gap between man’s teachings and the bible, as a Christian (Christ Follower) you must side with the Bible.

[I tell the truth]

So I'm back from the weekend. Not much changed since the two year hiatus. Here's my observations from the conference.

Those that have been in the church for 40 to 50 years along with older saints have come down with health problems. The middle age working saints have high and middle school along with younger grades going to classes outside of the main messages. One thing that was encouraging was that some males and females were together which is usually discouraged and sometimes prohibited because they think it's fleshly, lustful and improper.

The younger and married in the last few years saints had young children because there has been a push in the recovery for the next generation because fruit is hard to come by. Most of the saints in the church are married simply because they're in the church.

For the older saints, it's was like a big reunion to talk about old times in the church and see which locality they currently are at. And, when they talk I always found it weird that they only talk about church related stuff and nothing else.

The attendance was much smaller because of various reasons. Some saints my age were missing and I didn't bother to ask why. One reason but not too big was several families picked up and moved to migrate. In the early years of the GTCA, saints were just encouraged to serve during the two weeks nearby However in the last few years saints have been pressured to move out of state and across the country.

During the meetings many saints still say "Amen" after basically every sentence. For the sharing saints would come up and repeat stuff from the outline sometimes screaming. Overall, the same yearly weekend as before.

To end this post, I remember myself when I was very young at this weekend. These children are various ages really can't do anything for themselves until they're financially stable. If you think after high school you can't as if you go to a college away your parents will set you up with the college Christians on campus and the church there. After that the FTTA or then pressured to marry someone in the church.

I'm still in the church for various reasons but have considered leaving many times. But have not done so for various reasons yet.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

Yes I'm old enough to leave. But the second you do the news will spread quickly to the saints. And, you will be prayed about to be recovered. Certain saints will immediately contact you and try to get together with you subtle to shepherd you back.

I worked with the children's ministry for 7 years. Taught them scripture, sang songs with them, did science experiments with them, played games with them, was invited to birthday parties, spent much time and fellowship with families and parents, prayed much and worked much for the children. It was my life.

When I suddenly texted three of the brothers who were leading the children's ministry that I was leaving, all I got was one response.

"Ok, brother!"

When I texted a sister who I worked with in the YP ministry for three-ish years that I was leaving TLR, I got no response.

In the midst of the situation that was the tipping point for me to leave back in January, I received one phone call from one elder. I missed it and tried to return the call with no answer. I was not close to this brother.

I received a text from another elder who was my mentor asking if I wanted to meet. He did not mention anything about the hectic situation I was in, and I was in no mood to speak to him because it was a terrifying situation for me and he was one of the elders who participated in the event that made me leave. He has not since tried to contact me. I had no desire to deal with the emotional manipulation that I knew they often practiced (and this was before finding out about all the testimonies of people who had left!)

My best friend heard me out at first, but when it came time to choose between the "oneness" and doing what was right in that situation, he stonewalled me.

As it stands now, only one member currently in there has heard my situation and my thoughts on the matter. He knows I have left, but he has sought me out to keep fellowshipping with me. When I told him what happened, he was very understanding and is even now considering leaving, but I am not certain if he has the heart to do it. I pray the Lord will take care of him. He is still a young man with his whole future ahead of him. This is understandably a lot to deal with, and I don't blame him for hesitating. Took me 9 years to figure it out.

I've had no contact with anyone else for the last 6 months. No others have reached out to me. Feels like I never existed. A very strange feeling. I found out afterwards that I was seen as a sort of "black sheep" and was seen as "contentious" because I often contested the way they do things. Perhaps they see me as too far gone to even bother with. It's a chilling thought, but I am not particularly eager to speak with loved ones who are hooked on Lee's nonsense. It scares me how often they set reason on fire and throw it off a cliff to defend what they do. My heart could barely handle what happened in January, and I was not even the one being abused but rather was trying to defend another. It really messed me up to see how strong the group think was. It was incredibly disturbing.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

It scares me how often they set reason on fire and throw it off a cliff to defend what they do. My heart could barely handle what happened in January, and I was not even the one being abused but rather was trying to defend another. It really messed me up to see how strong the group think was. It was incredibly disturbing.

You can go from inner circle to expulsion in this group, simply for having a rational thought and having the courage to express it.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

But the second you do the news will spread quickly to the saints. And, you will be prayed about to be recovered. Certain saints will immediately contact you and try to get together with you subtle to shepherd you back.

My experience when leaving in 2000, I did not hear from anyone for about 6 months until a brother I served with gave me a phone call. After that it was not for another 6-7 years when another brother contacted me. Initially I thought maybe because he found out I was posting here. More likely because they were getting ready to take the ground in the city I live in.