The Mind Benders - What Jack Sparks Actually Said

[Nell]

Copyright (c) 1977, 1979, 2nd Edition

Years ago I found and purchased a copy of The Mind Benders online. I have scanned the LC section into a .pdf attached below in 3 parts because of the large size of the original .pdf.

It's a very interesting historical perspective. One of the things that helped me boot myself out was the realization that everything they said about us (the LC) was true.

At the end of LC3 is a newspaper response by the LC from "somewhere". Maybe Austin. The listed phone number does not provide the area code...it's that old!

Nell

[Nell]

The .pdf was too large to post one big chunk.

Copyright (c) 1977, 1979, 2nd Edition

[Nell]

Chunk #3

Nell

Copyright (c) 1977, 1979, 2nd Edition

[Trapped]

So very helpful to read this. Thank you so much for posting this, Nell.

I, unfortunately, do agree with the (incredibly angry, that should itself be a huge tip-off to readers) letter at the very end that Jack did too much comparing to what historical Christianity believes, rather than comparing to what the Bible says. I'm not saying it renders his conclusions wrong; I'm just saying it would have been a stronger base if he'd used the Bible as the base. But aside from that, his description of everything else is SPOT ON. And whichever local church fanatic wrote the letter (it sounds like a Kerry Robichaux product, although I'm not sure how old he would have been back then) has zero legs to stand on as they vitriolically accuse Jack of "Jesus plus..." while they themselves virtually abandon Jesus in favor of Witness Lee alone.

As one whose whole life was encompassed by this thing.....I will state that Jack Sparks, MindBenders, has truthfully and accurately described the environment, teachings, mind-altering practices, viewpoints, beliefs, fearful threats, hypocritical responses, and arrogance of the local church movement.

Trapped

[Zezima]

Thanks for sharing this, I’ve always heard whispers but never had the chance to read it. It paints a good picture of the movement.

I finished it and though “that was it?” Living stream went to court over that?” It’s a small section of a larger book. What fickle souls. Jesus prayed for his enemies while they nailed him to the cross.

[Paul Vusik]

Thanks for posting this Nell, first time reading that.


I agree 100 percent with the writer of that book. It’s a snippets of each of the satanic teachings that exist there. No wonder they took him to court and destroyed the evidence by claiming a court victory! What a frauds!
I will say that not only he is correct on all his points, I probably would have used a biblical term to identify it as the synagogue of satan, because that’s what it is. No truth! No God! Nothing but a shell, waiting to be crushed, as it will be.

Also interesting, that they point to the Catholic Church as a mother whore, but when they could not prove biblically their teachings on man becoming gods, they went straight to the Catholicism to take their doctrine as a proof text. So much for not being the daughter of a whore, as they claim all Christians are.

And this quote here:
“Have you seen God, Christ, the Church, and the Churches? The sisters must forget about their husbands, and the brothers must forget about their wives. We must forget about our preoccupations and see God, Christ, the Church, and the churches. Hallelujah!”

If that doesn’t describe the total abandonment of all issues regarding home, family, community, children, marriage, relationships with people, elitism, and other countless testimonies of people who are, or where in this scam, then nothing will wake up anyone from the deception of the spirit of recovery.

[Nell]

I only have one disagreement with all of what Mr. Sparks says in his book. In a couple of places he says that a person cannot recover from Lee’s brainwashing. I believe Mr. Sparks would rejoice to hear that, with God’s mercy, many of us have indeed recovered from the so-called “recovery”.

My prayer is that those who are reading this forum, and are still “in the meetings”, will be helped by this look from the outside to see what others see. This is not normal. My reaction was “Well. When you put it like that, I can better understand what happened to me.”

Nell

[Nell]

We've talked about this before. Here's an outsider's perspective:

The Mind Benders, p. 231, 232
"The Power of Fear
What keeps these people in the Local Church? The cause? Yes. Excitement? Yes. But beyond that, people who have encountered the group say it seems to be fear that keeps them in. Fear of what might happen if they leave. (Remember the Benson Phillips pronouncement/curse?) Individual identity and the adherent's past have been rejected. It is next to impossible to ever go back. The indoctrination has been too thorough. Those weeks, months, and years of daily emphasis on how bad it is where the others live takes it toll. Many find it is almost psychologically impossible to return to and maintain normalcy.

The fear and guilt that accompany leaving are too much for most people to take. It's not just the humiliation of having to admit you were wrong after you had so openly and boldly committed yourself. In fact, that's trivial compared to the black dread that you may be washed out with God forever. Within the movement, stories are multiplied as to tragedies which have occurred in the lives of those who have left. The most dramatic of these tales are told by people who have left only to come crawling back on their hands and knees telling of the awful judgment of God they experienced on the outside. There are no stories told within the group of those who have successfully left and made it. (Note: no stories within the group, but plenty of stories of those of us who have successfully left and thrive...outside the Local Church. Thank you Lord.)

Once in the Local Church, the member is likely to stay on for life. This is no movement of kids going through a stage. Sure, there are some young people in it. But all ages are represented. Fear, it seems to me, is the ultimate weapon in the Local Church. It is a fear few Christians have ever known or even knew existed.

Once in, you must not think about your circumstances. Do not ask if it's right or wrong. Never admit you're trapped. Just go along with it all. It will all be over someday. "O Lord Jesus, O Lord Jesus."

Remember, "we don't care for right or wrong"?

Nell

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Nell

We've talked about this before. Here's an outsider's perspective:

The Mind Benders, p. 231, 232
"The Power of Fear
What keeps these people in the Local Church? The cause? Yes. Excitement? Yes. But beyond that, people who have encountered the group say it seems to be fear that keeps them in. Fear of what might happen if they leave. (Remember the Benson Phillips pronouncement/curse?) Individual identity and the adherent's past have been rejected. It is next to impossible to ever go back. The indoctrination has been too thorough. Those weeks, months, and years of daily emphasis on how bad it is where the others live takes it toll. Many find it is almost psychologically impossible to return to and maintain normalcy.

The fear and guilt that accompany leaving are too much for most people to take. It's not just the humiliation of having to admit you were wrong after you had so openly and boldly committed yourself. In fact, that's trivial compared to the black dread that you may be washed out with God forever. Within the movement, stories are multiplied as to tragedies which have occurred in the lives of those who have left. The most dramatic of these tales are told by people who have left only to come crawling back on their hands and knees telling of the awful judgment of God they experienced on the outside. There are no stories told within the group of those who have successfully left and made it. (Note: no stories within the group, but plenty of stories of those of us who have successfully left and thrive...outside the Local Church. Thank you Lord.)

Once in the Local Church, the member is likely to stay on for life. This is no movement of kids going through a stage. Sure, there are some young people in it. But all ages are represented. Fear, it seems to me, is the ultimate weapon in the Local Church. It is a fear few Christians have ever known or even knew existed.

Once in, you must not think about your circumstances. Do not ask if it's right or wrong. Never admit you're trapped. Just go along with it all. It will all be over someday. "O Lord Jesus, O Lord Jesus."

(Remember, "we don't care for right or wrong"?

Nell

Nell,


That’s why very few get out, and out of those that do, very few that are able to deal with the damages and consequences of being exposed to it.

I will say that in my own experience, it’s like starting your life all over again. I lost all of my relationships with mostly all of the people I knew. I used to sing in the acappella choir, and knew a lot of people, Christians. They were all cut off immediately upon our arrival to LC.

I really doubt that even a small amount of people who get out, are going to be OK with the process, which can be brutal at times. It’s only by relying on God, and not anything else, that makes it worth while. It’s much more difficult to eat crow, that the easiness and the conveniences of a group think, crowd following mentality, which the LC is all about. Right, wrong, good, evil, it’s all irrelevant, as long as you shut up, line up, don’t ask and don’t tell. It’s a form of oneness, they claim!

But one should always remember, that there is individual responsibility first, rather than corporate. So if individual is abandoned, the corporate nonsense that’s pedaled by LC is a form of nanny state, disabled people, unable to not only function, but unable to bring anything to the table for others. It’s a perfect picture of our society, and before it got that way, there was LC leading the way!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Nell,

That’s why very few get out, and out of those that do, very few that are able to deal with the damages and consequences of being exposed to it.

Are you able to support this statement with facts? Dealing with "damages and consequences" is a matter of a return to faith in the Father who loves us and broods over us. He will NEVER leave us or forsake us. We are the ones who left Him for another (Lee). We first must return to Him as the prodigal son returned to his father's house, and was welcomed with open arms. This was my experience. "Lord, I'm sorry. I was wrong. I repent. Please forgive me. You are my hope and salvation...no one else. ...

I will say that in my own experience, it’s like starting your life all over again. I lost all of my relationships with mostly all of the people I knew. I used to sing in the acappella choir, and knew a lot of people, Christians. They were all cut off immediately upon our arrival to LC.

I really doubt that even a small amount of people who get out, are going to be OK with the process, which can be brutal at times. It’s only by relying on God, and not anything else, that makes it worth while. It’s much more difficult to eat crow, that the easiness and the conveniences of a group think, crowd following mentality, which the LC is all about. Right, wrong, good, evil, it’s all irrelevant, as long as you shut up, line up, don’t ask and don’t tell. It’s a form of oneness, they claim!

Relying on God and nothing else is the essence of the Christian life. Isn't it?

But one should always remember, that there is individual responsibility first, rather than corporate. So if individual is abandoned, the corporate nonsense that’s pedaled by LC is a form of nanny state, disabled people, unable to not only function, but unable to bring anything to the table for others. It’s a perfect picture of our society, and before it got that way, there was LC leading the way!

Rather than discourage people who were trapped in this deception, wouldn't it be more consistent with the Christian walk with God to encourage people with the power of repentance of sins and forgiveness?

Whatever Lee and the LC did, or still do, God is our hope, our strength and our Rock. Our faith in Him is our hope.

As for me, I didn't mentally "figure things out". I turned my heart to the Lord and cried out for help from Him. It wasn't until I trusted Him and repented for trusting Lee instead of Him that the lights began to "come on". I began to "see" slowly but surely. I DID RECOVER.

This is where we start. When things go sideways, go back to the beginning. It may not be easy, but it is our salvation to return to our Father.

Encourage one another with these words!

Nell

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Nell

Are you able to support this statement with facts? Dealing with "damages and consequences" is a matter of a return to faith in the Father who loves us and broods over us. He will NEVER leave us or forsake us. We are the ones who left Him for another (Lee). We first must return to Him as the prodigal son returned to his father's house, and was welcomed with open arms. This was my experience. "Lord, I'm sorry. I was wrong. I repent. Please forgive me. You are my hope and salvation...no one else. ...

I guess testimony’s of countless people on this forum alone, (I won’t even mention elsewhere), in multiple threads is not enough as “statements with facts”, of the mental/phycological/emotional damages that people been exposed to while in the LC. If you think that saying “Lord I’m sorry”, will automatically delete all those issues that compounded over decades sometimes, I’m not in that camp.

I know of dozens of people, even personally, who have completely thrown in a towel after their experience in LC. I won’t name names, just wouldn’t be appropriate, but don’t tell me that those people somehow can just say “I’m sorry” and all is instantly cured and dealt with.

Originally Posted by Nell

Relying on God and nothing else is the essence of the Christian life. Isn't it?

Again here,
My previous sentence in that post speaks to what I said. The process of realizing and dealing with those consequences and damages that occurred while one was worshiping (Lee), is what I’m referring too. Obviously if you believe that there aren’t any, then it’s a mood point to even take on.

Originally Posted by Nell

Rather than discourage people who were trapped in this deception, wouldn't it be more consistent with the Christian walk with God to encourage people with the power of repentance of sins and forgiveness?
Nell

For anyone to even get to the point of seeking repentance, and forgiveness, there is a need to speak forth the truth, which lead to true repentance. This notion of speaking “positive” messages at 100% of the time, does absolutely nothing in bringing people to God, and realizing the situation. Before anyone is cured or even attempted to be cured from some diseases, one needs to realize that they have one, before they proceed with the process of seeking help.

The book of Acts, records messages given by the apostles, each has a negative portion to it, before the solution is offered to people in form of repentance. Why? Because there is no such thing as repentance and realization of true condition, without understanding the situation in the first place. It’s a 50/50 message, and if it’s tilts one way or the other it’s no longer complete.

Romans 10:17
King James Version
17*So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Word of God is not a lollipop to the color of my choice and flavor, so we ether keep it that way and, or just eliminate all not so positive things from it and just keep pounding on some verses that make one feel good and positive and never tell anyone that they have been exposed to some deadly disease. Let’s see the results of that.

I could say more on this, but will stop here to keep it somewhat short.
Thanks

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

I guess testimony’s of countless people on this forum alone, (I won’t even mention elsewhere), in multiple threads is not enough as “statements with facts”, of the mental/phycological/emotional damages that people been exposed to while in the LC. If you think that saying “Lord I’m sorry”, will automatically delete all those issues that compounded over decades sometimes, I’m not in that camp.

I know of dozens of people, even personally, who have completely thrown in a towel after their experience in LC. I won’t name names, just wouldn’t be appropriate, but don’t tell me that those people somehow can just say “I’m sorry” and all is instantly cured and dealt with.

Here I would have to say that the simplicity of faith, briefly described by sister Nell above, should not be so easily discounted. As I read her post, I was convicted in heart of my own obsession to “figure it all out” as I departed the LC. Is not our loving High Priest “able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to Him?” We must say “yes, amen.”

When considering our exodus from the LC system, we should not focus on the “failures,” thinking this mountain is far too difficult to climb. Remember the stories in the Gospels? Think about the how “impossible” it was for any Israelite to follow Jesus? All of them were threatened with expulsion from the synagogue, becoming outcasts from society, and shunned by their friends and family. Yet His love and grace were absolutely magnetic to God’s chosen ones.

Consider also the failures of so many “newborns” as they begin their new life with the Lord, following their regeneration. The parable of the Sower enumerates many of the pitfalls each believer faces. But reading the parable, our faith would never allow us to conclude that it’s too hard, the Christian life is too difficult, and better not to preach the Gospel in the first place since so many newborns get consumed with the affairs of this life.

In many regards the exodus journey from the Synogogue was the same as the exodus from Egypt. Did they not both require a daily supply from heaven, trusting God to protect them, sheltering them from all the elements and enemies? Sure most have failed, but is not God’s way the “proving” of our faith? Proving requires testing, testing of all types. The LC experience is just one type of testing that has been around for millennia.

Paul, it may seem to be the most horrible to you because your loved ones are there, but try to find some new perspectives. Seek wisdom from God how to take each step forward. Yes, there are strongholds in the LC, but there are ways we can take with God’s wisdom and grace which can dismantle their defenses over time.

We are with you praying for them.

[Trapped]

It seems obvious that Nell and Paul are simply speaking from different experiences. For those who actually chose to follow Witness Lee over God, repenting seems to be the appropriate and necessary response.

For those like me who did NOT choose to follow Witness Lee over God, but instead were plunged from birth into an insular, closed-door garlic room, my own experience lines more up with what Paul is describing, and for me to think I had to take Nell or Ohio's advice of repenting for "following Lee" would make me feel like God has joined in cahoots with the abusive leaders and that God Himself is making me grovel for..........someone ELSE choosing to raise me in this environment and someone ELSE threatening God's wrath, leprosy, cancer, or death against me if I dared express an opinion, hurt, or desire to leave. None of those are things I should be repenting of any more than any other child who is born into any other abusive system.

Thinking a "simplicity of faith" is some kind of answer does absolutely nothing to help the years-long battle of sorting out what, if anything, from my entire life was TRUE or if it all was a lie. It does nothing to help me trust people again. It does nothing to stabilize the shattered foundation of my life. I know it's a nice thought that simply trusting makes it all okay, but the reality is, God isn't there every step of the way making sure there is ointment on every throbbing wound. The aftermath of this kind of thing is real and God, for whatever reason, doesn't keep us from suffering in it as we heal over the long-term. There is no immediate simplicity to the faith when your entire faith is under revision because you are pickled by a system of faith-error. There is no immediate simple way to trust God when you are battling daily with trying to sort out all the lies you were told about that God. How can I repent to God that I didn't somehow magically "know" who He "really" was, when the entirety of my surroundings told me otherwise, and when "God's deputy authorities who you must submit to regardless of right or wrong" utterly maligned any other group whose message of a loving God might have made its way to my ears? It's ludicrous.....for people who did not choose this but were forced into it by birth.

I for one always felt uncomfortable with the "out-of-mind group calling sessions" where the Lord's name was just cheer bait and I simply could not participate, but had to fake it with outward actions like fist-pumping and lip-moving while others were screaming out and clearly out of their mind. I for one literally NEVER got anything out of Witness Lee's material and had to MAKE UP MY ENJOYMENT literally every single time a serving one made me tell them what I enjoyed the second after reading another boring excerpt. I for one grew up with a God who smacked me down at every turn for any little thing I was normally, humanly, non-sinfully interested in. Literally the first time I heard God might not be that way, but might be a God whose face was turned towards me, was when I was well, well into adulthood. Like not 24 years old, but much further on into adulthood. It was blindingly new information. Shook me for days that God might not hate me. What am I repenting for?

But for those who can remember points where they chose Lee over their conscience, or where they chose the ministry over the Bible, or where they blamed victims and supported perpetrators, or where they shoved God's voice aside and took in the co-workers' voices......repenting sounds appropriate and is good advice. This is a very situational thing and both Nell and Ohio and Paul's advice and wisdom is appropriate.....per the situation.

And I'm sure there are even others who have different experiences from the two types described here. Some other response/healing/journey is the appropriate thing for them too.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

But for those who can remember points where they chose Lee over their conscience, or where they chose the ministry over the Bible, or where they blamed victims and supported perpetrators, or where they shoved God's voice aside and took in the co-workers' voices......repenting sounds appropriate and is good advice. This is a very situational thing and both Nell and Ohio and Paul's advice and wisdom is appropriate.....per the situation.

And I'm sure there are even others who have different experiences from the two types described here. Some other response/healing/journey is the appropriate thing for them too.

Trapped

Trapped thanks for sharing.

Those who are victims, as we all were/are, of others' lies, abuses, falsehoods, blaming, wrong choices, etc. do not bear the same guilt as those who are the leaders, the perpetrators, the abusers, and the deceivers. They have the "greater sin," as the Lord once said. We should repent for all our failures, especially those which damaged others.

I hope neither Nell nor I gave the impression that recovery from abusive systems is a piece of cake. I merely tried to provide encouragement that Jesus is our way to the Father, and that the stories in the Gospels show us that we are on the same pathway as many before us.

I probably should have mentioned one important distinction. I believe that Nell, Paul, and I had our own genuine faith in God as adults before entering the Recovery system. You, however, did not, growing up in an LC family. Your journey, as with other "church kids" is far more difficult, and needs more prayer and deliverance from that bondage.

[Paul Vusik]

I was going to post reply’s to each of the previous 3 posts, but then I figured I just reply to it in one post.
I appreciate both Trapped and Ohio points and I’ll just say that, I have noticed that most of the misunderstandings and disagreements here on this forum come from when we basically posting something with the assumption that most or even a few people went through the same things in their lives. This is especially true, when it comes to testimony and issues on social and general life situations.
We for the most part don’t know any, or very little of each other’s backgrounds, upbringing, family and social issues. We don’t know anything that each has gone through, or what they lived with.
I just comment on myself, and I say this before the Lord. I really by all statistical categories should be a statistic as of a long time ago. This forum is kind of limited to the LC discussions, so I “try” for the most part to stick to the issues with that. Maybe one day I’ll post my testimony here to clarify why I say what I did. My perspective on things is obviously coming from my experience for the most part, so if people never even considered that someone could have had differently than them, it could be offensive to them.
I personally feel horrible for the people who where born into the LC. I know that it’s not a positive thing people on this forum, but I don’t care. Call it what it is, don’t put lipstick on a pig. I know many people that have zero and I mean zero, understanding and even thoughts that there is actually God that exist outside of the LC. Don’t give excuses to those man that continue to destroy lives of people from birth. Call them out instead, expose them. These people that were born into it, as posted by Trapped really had no chance to even see anything beside the scam that is the LC.
Trapped, I know we disagree on a lot of things, but I didn’t actually know that you were born into it. I honestly say this to you, I’ll pray for you, and it’s a journey, not always pretty. I’m glad that you are one of the few “church kids” that did get out and didn’t throw in the towel, or went back in with your tail between your legs begging for forgiveness, for the fear of retribution or loosing your salvation.
Lastly, I know that its getting kind of a long post here, but I will just say this:
My LC experience, although shorter than a lot of people here was/is, to say the least worse than even the dead religious people that I have been around my whole life. At least the people in religion, didn’t claim, force feed, uplift themselves to such a level that LC did. Even worse, it had absolutely nothing to offer to people as a solution for anything. Psycho therapy probably would have had more better results than what I received as the solutions offered at the LC, which has no solutions. So, I write from that standpoint. God has done some amazingly great things in my life, so I know it rubs people the wrong way sometimes for what I write.
I’m not sure what the future holds here, but God will provide other outlets if and when it’s necessary to move forward. One thing I know for sure, there ain’t nobody in this world will shut me up from speaking the truth and the things that God has done in my life regardless of someone’s feelings!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Trapped thanks for sharing.

Those who are victims, as we all were/are, of others' lies, abuses, falsehoods, blaming, wrong choices, etc. do not bear the same guilt as those who are the leaders, the perpetrators, the abusers, and the deceivers. They have the "greater sin," as the Lord once said. We should repent for all our failures, especially those which damaged others.

I hope neither Nell nor I gave the impression that recovery from abusive systems is a piece of cake. I merely tried to provide encouragement that Jesus is our way to the Father, and that the stories in the Gospels show us that we are on the same pathway as many before us.

I probably should have mentioned one important distinction. I believe that Nell, Paul, and I had our own genuine faith in God as adults before entering the Recovery system. You, however, did not, growing up in an LC family. Your journey, as with other "church kids" is far more difficult, and needs more prayer and deliverance from that bondage.

Thanks Ohio. My point began with a response to Mr. Sparks' statement in his book "The Mindbenders" that recovery from this Witness Lee/LC system was not possible. I was responding, also, to Paul's apparent belief that recovery from the Witness Lee/LC system was not possible.

I wanted, and still want, to encourage those who read such remarks that our Christian faith makes recovery totally possible. Repentance, foundational to the Christian faith, was my personal experience. This is what I wanted to share...encouragement to all in our faith. For me, repentance was a place to start. Everyone is different, even among Church Kids.

If anyone wants to continue this discussion, i.e., "Recovering from the 'Recovery' ", please start another thread, in which case, we can move these few posts to a new thread.

Nell

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

Copyright (c) 1977, 1979, 2nd Edition

Years ago I found and purchased a copy of The Mind Benders online. I have scanned the LC section into a .pdf attached below in 3 parts because of the large size of the original .pdf.

It's a very interesting historical perspective. One of the things that helped me boot myself out was the realization that everything they said about us (the LC) was true.

At the end of LC3 is a newspaper response by the LC from "somewhere". Maybe Austin. The listed phone number does not provide the area code...it's that old!

Nell

Was there really a time when people just surrounded someone and called Oh Lord Jesus non stop in attempts to convert them?

[gr8ful]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Was there really a time when people just surrounded someone and called Oh Lord Jesus non stop in attempts to convert them?

While I didn't see a group of "OLJ" chanters surround people, in the mid-80s I did see The Gospel Team stand a visitor up at a Gospel Meeting and badger them into repeating "OLJ". Actually bullying the poor visitor into repeating the phrase -- and why not, since just saying the phrase would save them, right? End justifying the means, right? I was new, but this left an ugly memory. No one stopped the "Gospel Team" member from doing this.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Was there really a time when people just surrounded someone and called Oh Lord Jesus non stop in attempts to convert them?

Yes. Sparks was accurate and it happened often...as gr8tful described. We used to have "love feasts"...bring food and have a gospel meeting. Go out and bring people in from off the streets and feed them. In Austin it was generally UT students. I remember one case where a young man was so psyched out that he blurted out a string of expletives at the "preacher" and ran out the door. It was ugly.

Nell

“O Lord Jesus, O Lord Jesus, O Lord Jesus.” On it went. It was beginning to become clear to you what they wanted. You were supposed to join in. The friend who had invited you was smiling at you and encouraging you with his hand to join in. The heat was on. It was all of them against you. You could feel the flush of embarrassment coming up your neck and face. How did you ever get yourself into this? “What kind of a heathen am I anyway?” you ask yourself. You better do something. They're not about to give up. It could be a long night.

Finally you venture an “O Lord Jesus,” but only with your lips. Smiles and encouragement come from the whole group. They like what you're doing. “That didn't hurt so much,” you muse. You vocalize it softly, “O Lord Jesus.”

p. 220

THE “LOCAL CHURCH”
You're really into it now. You're even enjoying it. You're pulsating back and forth with them. What acceptance! You're a part. You've even got that odd intonation. Your mind is relieved. The pressure is off. Your will has been broken. And it's likely that you have just become the most recent convert to the Local Church.

We have seen that the leaders say if they can get you to say it just once, they're well on their way to getting you. Witness Lee has said:

In other words, whenever we say “Lord Jesus” in a real way, it means that you are in the Spirit. . . we all have to learn to say “Lord Jesus” in the meeting, in our home, and a thousand times a day. We must all say this. If we are going to lose our temper, we must say, “O Lord Jesus”! Then our temper will be gone . . . I tell you, you can become holy just by saying “Lord Jesus.” Whenever you say “Lord Jesus,” you are in the Holy Spirit. (Lee, How To Meet, p.84.)

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Was there really a time when people just surrounded someone and called Oh Lord Jesus non stop in attempts to convert them?

This is what Witness Lee taught us to do, so this is what we did. Witness Lee also taught us that all we had to do was get an unbeliever to say (or shout) "Oh Lord Jesus" over and over again and they would be saved. I attended and participated in many (maybe hundreds) of "gospel meetings" or "love feasts" where people were surrounded and coerced to "call on the Lord". Only God knows whether or not these people actually got saved. But actually, the real goal wasn't salvation at all, the goal was to turn them into a regular attending member, get them moved into a brother's or sister's house, and finally to become a devout, mindless follower of Witness Lee, attending 5 or 6 meetings a week, and eventually become a fruitful recruiter themselves. This was "The Church Life".
-

[Nell]

A couple more testimonies on this forum backing up Jack Spark’s account regarding LC practices in his book.


Testimony2

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Nell

Thanks Ohio. My point began with a response to Mr. Sparks' statement in his book "The Mindbenders" that recovery from this Witness Lee/LC system was not possible. I was responding, also, to Paul's apparent belief that recovery from the Witness Lee/LC system was not possible.
Nell

This was what I actually said earlier on this thread, just for clarification.

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

That’s why very few get out, and out of those that do, very few that are able to deal with the damages and consequences of being exposed to it.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This is what Witness Lee taught us to do, so this is what we did. Witness Lee also taught us that all we had to do was get an unbeliever to say (or shout) "Oh Lord Jesus" over and over again and they would be saved. I attended and participated in many (maybe hundreds) of "gospel meetings" or "love feasts" where people were surrounded and coerced to "call on the Lord". Only God knows whether or not these people actually got saved. But actually, the real goal wasn't salvation at all, the goal was to turn them into a regular attending member, get them moved into a brother's or sister's house, and finally to become a devout, mindless follower of Witness Lee, attending 5 or 6 meetings a week, and eventually become a fruitful recruiter themselves. This was "The Church Life".
-

One of the first things that I was told, that unless I practice this routine, and drop the way I prayed, it will be hard to access your spirit, or exercise it. For whatever reason, or by Gods mercy it was never a thing for me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

One of the first things that I was told, that unless I practice this routine, and drop the way I prayed, it will be hard to access your spirit, or exercise it. For whatever reason, or by Gods mercy it was never a thing for me.

Thank the Lord for that!

Only Jesus is the way. There are no God-ordained ways or methods in the scripture, unless we are speaking of faith, hope, and love. No "way" coming out of WL/LSM/Blendeds ever became "the way" sanctioned by God.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thank the Lord for that!

Only Jesus is the way. There are no God-ordained ways or methods in the scripture, unless we are speaking of faith, hope, and love. No "way" coming out of WL/LSM/Blendeds ever became "the way" sanctioned by God.

Aint that the truth! This week I was fellowshipping with a brother about how quick we (humans) are to make a method of some success we have. We were talking about how many came to Christ through Jonathan Edward's preaching of the fire and brimstone gospel ("Sinners in the hands of an angry God" - God dangling sinners over the roaring fire), even though such an intensive damnation approach was not used by any of the apostles as recorded in the NT. Yet, when there was some success in Edward's approach and the HS used this to convict sinners to repentance, then it immediately became a method that has been carried on to this day. Of course, the LC has been no different in their own way.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This is what Witness Lee taught us to do, so this is what we did. Witness Lee also taught us that all we had to do was get an unbeliever to say (or shout) "Oh Lord Jesus" over and over again and they would be saved. I attended and participated in many (maybe hundreds) of "gospel meetings" or "love feasts" where people were surrounded and coerced to "call on the Lord". Only God knows whether or not these people actually got saved. But actually, the real goal wasn't salvation at all, the goal was to turn them into a regular attending member, get them moved into a brother's or sister's house, and finally to become a devout, mindless follower of Witness Lee, attending 5 or 6 meetings a week, and eventually become a fruitful recruiter themselves. This was "The Church Life".
-

The burden always seemed to be to convert people to the Lords Recovery, not to Christ.

[Paul Vusik]

“Finally you venture an "O Lord Jesus," but only with your lips. Smiles and encouragement come from the whole group. They like what you're doing. "That didn't hurt so much," you muse. You vocalize it softly, "O Lord Jesus."

You're really into it now. You're even enjoying it. You're pulsating back and forth with them. What acceptance! You're a part. You've even got that odd intonation. Your mind is re- lieved. The pressure is off. Your will has been broken. And it's likely that you have just become the most recent convert to the Local Church.”
Mind-benders pg. 220-221.


I think that this hit the nail on the head. Forget about Jesus, or understanding what he has done on the cross. Just convert people to the “local church”, that’s what it all about.
God forbid if you speak up on this, the mantra will be given right in your face, as a sign that you crossed the line.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

“Finally you venture an "O Lord Jesus," but only with your lips. Smiles and encouragement come from the whole group. They like what you're doing. "That didn't hurt so much," you muse. You vocalize it softly, "O Lord Jesus."

I think that this hit the nail on the head. Forget about Jesus, or understanding what he has done on the cross. Just convert people to the “local church”, that’s what it all about.

Those hearing the gospel must make their own voluntary choice of free will. Perhaps this is why Billy Graham's more anonymous "altar calls" were more effective. Being singled out in an LC meeting creates enormous pressure within just to comply, with or without genuine faith, resulting in man-pleasing performances, rather than salvation's spiritual birth.

My former in-law was one such story. He later told his wife that he never believed or repented, rather merely succumbed to pressure, repeating the words to everyone's delight. But this was not a new experience in the LC, as I'm sure many Christians in other churches have faced this same quandary. Everyone needs to hear the Gospel, but the hearers must believe on their own.

This is why Apostle Paul said "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth." Words alone mean nothing without faith. "Calling on the Lord" is just that. Calling. On. The. Lord. It is not merely repeating words, or shouting words, even good spiritual words from the Bible. If one's heart is not turned in faith and repentance towards the Lord, seeking Him, then all is vain, even sinful, since "thou shall not take the Lord's name in vain."

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Those hearing the gospel must make their own voluntary choice of free will. Perhaps this is why Billy Graham's more anonymous "altar calls" were more effective. Being singled out in an LC meeting creates enormous pressure within just to comply, with or without genuine faith, resulting in man-pleasing performances, rather than salvation's spiritual birth.

My former in-law was one such story. He later told his wife that he never believed or repented, rather merely succumbed to pressure, repeating the words to everyone's delight. But this was not a new experience in the LC, as I'm sure many Christians in other churches have faced this same quandary. Everyone needs to hear the Gospel, but the hearers must believe on their own.

This is why Apostle Paul said "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth." Words alone mean nothing without faith. "Calling on the Lord" is just that. Calling. On. The. Lord. It is not merely repeating words, or shouting words, even good spiritual words from the Bible. If one's heart is not turned in faith and repentance towards the Lord, seeking Him, then all is vain, even sinful, since "thou shall not take the Lord's name in vain."

Ohio,
I appreciate your testimony about the fact that a lot of times, it’s pressure based “salvation”. There is really no preaching, no conviction of the Holy Spirit, but just pure emotional and group onslaught that breaks the will of people, and gives them nothing but handicapped spirituality. You ever wonder why after so many years people leave? People get frustrated and just can’t continue any further? The answer is most likely if they are as honest as you relative was, that it was “human effort type of salvation”, which I think is more dangerous than no salvation in my opinion. There is expectation from these people, to grow spiritually, but they were never born to even start the process. Very sad but true.
I know someone will claim somehow it’s Gods sovereignty, when it’s total failure of men to not let a person exercise their will, rather than be force into it by some magic “irresistible grace”, and or “let’s play another song here on the piano, and while it’s playing, please consider what could happen to you when you leave this house of worship”. Then again, “call on the name, until you are blue in the face comes to mind as a freshly run over Skunk on the road, smell of which will be there for a while after you left the place of the accident”. All human efforts. As one man from LC said to me one time, “we need to save our kids”, to which I should have replied, “you have been trying to save them for decades, I don’t see them in the church or anywhere near it. Maybe it’s time to let God do the saving and focus on preaching the real Gospel, which maybe God can use to save them”.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Thanks for sharing this, I’ve always heard whispers but never had the chance to read it. It paints a good picture of the movement.

I finished it and though “that was it?” Living stream went to court over that?” It’s a small section of a larger book. What fickle souls. Jesus prayed for his enemies while they nailed him to the cross.

This was my sentiment too. Living Stream sued over that? Much of the text is very accurate in teaching and practices within the Local Churches.
Perhaps something can be said how the Local Churches want to be perceived publically is vastly different than their speaking within the meeting halls.