Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com

UntoHim · 11-01-2021, 09:22 AM

Please post reactions/comments to the latest articles at Sherherdingwords.Com here.

Robert · 11-01-2021, 10:13 AM

Wow!!!!
I would comment a whole day all liars of this cult!!! Word after word! However, this advice is not an exercise of control but the issue of a loving concern based on a discerning of the nature of these writings and their effect on those who read them"

Are You kidding me? They created false definition of some regenerated spirit, they programmed people and they want to control saints! What a satanic work!

I was listening Ron Kangas yesterday. This man is so lost in his mind! He is so proud and still mentioning brother who died few years ago. He described situation and this brother as defeated! Who is this Ron to judge theirs and us pulpit and authority to turn saints against those who were connected to this Brother.
This time, this stupid man, Ron Kangas, did not mentioned him by name, but described situation.
So he, Ron, can spread rumors instead of covering in love?
He is all LC protector!
This all message is about blind followers i LC! Do not check, do not read, nave no You own mind!!!
And still he says, this is not mind control?
You can not imagine how worse and worse he is every year!
Just find record from conference 10.31.2021 I guess.
And by the way. Is it honest, that sued people for using excerpts from messages? That they removed many thing from YT?
That they reserved rights?
Just watch clips on YT with David Wilkerson. Kinda " feel free to copy and spread!" This is massage! Free! Enjoy and share!
Can honest people do anything in secret?

Prov 6; 12-19
I am sick of this and full of anger. But in healthy way. I hope God will deal with Ron and rest deceiving brothers. Lord, have mercy on kids and saints in so called LC!

Robert · 11-01-2021, 11:26 AM

Just example:
They quoted 1 Cor 10:10. But in their blindness forgot about context!
Israel was murmured against Moses and Aaron but rebelious against God!
Numbers 4:2; 4:9-11.
So who is Moses now and who is God in that meaning? This is nonsense what they wrote. I know most of these letters written by ex members and almost all of them was not about doctrines but exactely about controling, abuse, lack of love, unhealthy reports, spying etc.
They warn saint in general way making them fool. Not able to discern what is truth and what is false.
We do not see such a protection. Rather encouragement to know scriptures and being able to give mature explonation what we believe in and why.
2 Timothy 3:13-17 gives us a good pattern.
Publishing a letter like this, they proved that all so called LC have no autonomy and need central control.
They proved, that elders are stupid in local churches and can not deal with rumors and defend themselves.

How different from Lord Jesus position they took! Lord Jesus was quiet and did not fight with the world.
If there is a false accusation then it does not make to defend!
They say, that those letters disturb saint and grabb them from purity of heart. Well, I think they open eyes of blind people or gives answer, why for some years they had feeling of living double live?
I can go on and go on... May be some one else will comment more. For me this is a little bit bitter and frustraiting.
Not because of hate or wounds, but bacause I can not watch what damage they made among young people making them blind workers without basic spiritual sense, love and etc. Like robots.

This is sad.Today my wife read from Prov. about Ron Kangas.
Yes! You would not believe, but there is about proud people!
And btw.. I hope, this letter will stir up curiosity in opposite to warnings among saint!
However,it is not about outward factor. I am glad rather reading honest testimonies here from saint, who really see matter of real live in Spirit and false manners of so called elders.

Trapped · 11-01-2021, 03:41 PM

My reaction?

Really I wanted a "vomit" emoji, but those will do too.

If you didn't know better, reading these articles you would think the LC is constantly under the attack of the enemy, that the LC is preserved in a fragile special little bubble trying to protect themselves from everyone else, that every single problem in the local church is REALLY just YOU as the problem, and that they are the extreme focus of never-ending misrepresentation and unfounded slander.

The overwhelming volume of lies and scripture-twisting found on shepherdingwords.com is to the extent that no one under its grips could ever see what's going on. Seriously.....talk about the "sense of death" that you get from reading their "shepherding words"! Reading the articles is like.......all they're doing is beating you down!

The visual I got reading their articles was that they would still continue the same stream of blather even if they were actively falling into the pit of hell. That may be strong, but they have been clinging so tightly to the same false narrative for so long I think they would rather die than let it go. Their grip on a lie is so strong.

Trapped

Robert · 11-01-2021, 09:52 PM

Good point, Trapped!

Nell · 11-02-2021, 04:47 AM

I followed the link to Should we not warn other people? As I read through the first paragraph, I began to realize they're talking about themselves.

It starts out with a verse: “For the time will come when they will not tolerate the healthy teaching; but according to their own lusts they will heap up to themselves teachers, having itching ears, and they will turn away their ear from the truth and will be turned aside to myths” (2 Tim. 4:3-4.

Then they note that Paul's words are being fulfilled, by those teachers who are avoiding the warnings. Yes! Absolutely true. WE have been WARNING THEM!!! Many of us who have been subjected to their heavy handed "shepherding" have been warning them for years.

On this forum, and in many other ways, they are being warned that their teachings are not healthy. They have turned away their ear from the truth being told to them, turning aside to the mythical teachings of Witness Lee to scratch their itching ears.

They point the finger at "others" who seek/need "comfort and affirmation". Do they not have a website called "Affirmation and Critique" wherein they affirm their own words with their own words? Do they listen to anyone but themselves? Are they not the "Christian teachers avoiding the warnings..."? See the Open Letter: To the Leadership of Living Stream Ministry and the "Local Churches".

They imply that there is something wrong with "comfort and affirmation". Comfort: Healing begins when the pain of being spiritually wounded begins to subside. Affirmation: It helps to know that you're not crazy for suspecting that something is not right in the Local Churches of Witness Lee.

Do they find it "uncomfortable" to hear the voices of those on this forum who are crying out to be heard?

Then they actually say they should heed these warnings for ourselves and warn others out of a proper heart and motive. When is that going to start? When are they going to heed the warnings from those who post on this forum?

So "should we not warn other people?" Yes. Of course we should. We, this forum, are doing exactly that, and have been doing so for a long time. We are warning others about the unhealthy and sometimes heretical teachings of Witness Lee.

Another warning:
Matt. 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Nell

Robert · 11-02-2021, 05:36 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7tNNo8EzfQ

This is what I got from Trapped on another thread.
Just listen list from 47:17 min. till the end...
The whole testimony fits to LC as well.
I truly think this is worthy of recommendation.
I am going to use it in the future (after his permission) as testimony and share with saints. You know, just like that.
I hope some of saints will find similarity and somehow Lord will open them for their own searching the truth. without "negative, poisoning words"...

Ohio · 11-03-2021, 07:37 AM

Quote:

In recent years a myth has been spread on the Internet that the leadership in the Lord’s recovery has systematically concealed the “real” history of the local churches. In the Lord’s recovery we do not hide our history. [Lies!] Rather, our practice is to examine our history, learn the lessons that can be derived from that history, and pass those lessons on to succeeding generations. [Lies!] In doing so, exposing division, wrongdoing, false teachings, and injurious practices among former workers is unavoidable. This is consistent with the practice of the Lord’s servants in the New Testament . At the same time, when we relate this history, we endeavor to avoid exposing sensitive information of a private nature that would damage individual members, ex-members, opposers, or their families. [Lies!] It is not the local churches that are guilty of hiding history. Rather, there is a concerted effort by a small number of Internet critics to rewrite the history of the local churches to suit their own ends. [Lies!] For them, conclusions can be drawn without facts, contrary evidence can be ignored, and innuendo and rumor can be substituted for veracity. [Lies!] It is this distorted and often fabricated “history” that they claim we are “hiding.” [Lies!] Those who take in the false narrative of unaccountable Internet critics will be brought into darkness and ultimately division. Those who read the factual accounts of these events published by LSM, the co-workers, and Defense & Confirmation Project will touch light and be strengthened in their faith in the Lord and their realization of His recovery. [Lies!]

Those of us who have spent any amount of time in and out of the Recovery can tell you these statements above are pure political spin and deceptive lies. This forum is filled with factual accounts and personal stories to prove it. For decades we have watched what LSM and DCP do to honest whistleblowers and godly reformers - they behaved like every other errant, legalistic, exclusive para-church organization - expelling truth-tellers and smearing their reputations with vicious attacks, written and verbal.

Zezima · 11-03-2021, 08:47 AM

“Those who take in the false narrative of unaccountable Internet critics will be brought into darkness and ultimately division. Those who read the factual accounts of these events published by LSM, the co-workers, and Defense & Confirmation Project will touch light and be strengthened in their faith in the Lord and their realization of His recovery.“

What does unaccountable mean? Are not the people who post still accountable to God?

His recovery? What in the world.

This is such a creepy post to put out. It screams desperation. There are two sides to every story and LSM is begging it’s followers to only listen to their side. This is so dark.

Robert · 11-03-2021, 09:52 AM

Quote:

“Those who take in the false narrative of unaccountable Internet critics will be brought into darkness and ultimately division. Those who read the factual accounts of these events published by LSM, the co-workers, and Defense & Confirmation Project will touch light and be strengthened in their faith in the Lord and their realization of His recovery."

Now translated into English:
My dear infants! Do not go outside when mommy is not home. There is BIIIG and UGLY WOLF!!! He will EAT You!!! Uuuuuh!There is darkness and many many bad things! Do not check, do not read kids without daddy WL and uncles Ron and Minoru!
Other words, You have not real Holly Spirit but fake spirit which can not remind You what Jesus said and will nor bring from Him. And also using other words-We want You control, so that is why we write this warning, because You are not real Christian who is able to discern with Your own brain, mind ans spirit
OOOOh, Yeaaa! Read only our works of daddy Lee, and listen carefully what uncles says. Then, we promise You membership in a cult. Because only we have Reserved Rights to light ( which is God Himself, but who cares if we have only rights).
Only we have tools and power to control and strength Your faith ( and it is even not so difficult, as long You put faith in that everything what comes from daddy Lee is truth"Other words, they put themselves on the same level as God

That was good quote showing manipulative words as the JW use to "protect" saints.

GraceAlone · 11-04-2021, 03:09 PM

Quote:

“Despite ecumenical movements, inter-denominational campaigns, and unity activities, only the ground of oneness preserves the oneness among believers. Once the campaigns and activities are over, the participants return to their respective denominations and resume their sectarian fellowship. Addressing this failure in Christianity, Brother Lee said, “Apart from the local ground, any kind of ‘oneness’ that is based on the same opinion is actually a division. When we are united with a group of people based on a certain opinion, we are automatically divided from other believers. Only on the local ground can there be oneness without division”. The Scriptural corrective to the present divided situation among Christians is to forsake doing what is right in one’s own eyes and to return to the unique place of God’s choice, the genuine ground of oneness. In so doing we will be kept from abusing God’s grace and will be subdued in our lust for our preference and choice.”

So many logical fallacies here that one doesn’t even know where to start.

Not to mention that the “Scriptural corrective” cites no actual Scriptural support.

Is it reasonable to hope that all of this may backfire as the audience starts to notice the above issues?

Bible-believer · 11-04-2021, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

So many logical fallacies here that one doesn’t even know where to start.

Not to mention that the “Scriptural corrective” cites no actual Scriptural support.

Is it reasonable to hope that all of this may backfire as the audience starts to notice the above issues?

Maybe the prerequisite is when the audience is able to think independently and read the Bible itself but not Lee's writings instead.
I recalled every time I said something different from Lee's, saints got up and told me what I said was wrong, and brother Lee said...

Zezima · 11-04-2021, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

So many logical fallacies here that one doesn’t even know where to start.

Not to mention that the “Scriptural corrective” cites no actual Scriptural support.

Is it reasonable to hope that all of this may backfire as the audience starts to notice the above issues?

Please start somewhere, could be helpful to lurkers.

I think something like this may cause some to question, but LSM does such a good job at reminding their followers to silence the questions that it’s doubtful. Remember questions are of the devil, critical thought is death.

GraceAlone · 11-05-2021, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Please start somewhere, could be helpful to lurkers.

Sure.

Ipse Dixit ("He said it himself") - Because we say so (or Brother Lee said so), it's by definition true. No other proof required.

Straw Man - Ecumenical movements are temporary measures from which people quickly return to fenced-in religious silos.

False Dilemma - Either you're meeting with the Lord's Recovery (TM), OR you're satisfying "the lust of your own preference." It's one or the other.

By way of a counterpoint example to the attitude expressed in these polemics, I'd like to offer the book "Until Unity" by Francis Chan (please let's not get into a debate for and against Chan), in which he candidly offers quite a bit of humble repentance for past judgments he made of other Christians who believed and practiced differently than he did on matters that could be considered non-essentials of the faith in either doctrine or practice. He even admits to having dismissed ecumenical efforts. It's refreshing. For a condensed sample of what I mean, here's a video clip for anyone interested. It resonated almost eerily for me.

https://player.vimeo.com/video/558725191

Zezima · 11-05-2021, 10:18 PM

I think there’s a line between people coping / figuring things out, and people being divisive. A good reminder none the less to not get puffed up with knowledge. There are very real believers in the LR, regardless of how we feel about the entity.

Bible-believer · 11-05-2021, 10:19 PM

I visit the website and have a strong feeling regarding their way of making a statement. It's like a press conference publicly with the comment function closed. It's really LR's style, total submission, and listening. No opinions are allowed, and no doubts as well. It's nearly a communistic way of approach.

Trapped · 11-05-2021, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

Ipse Dixit ("He said it himself") - Because we say so (or Brother Lee said so), it's by definition true. No other proof required.
Straw Man - Ecumenical movements are temporary measures from which people quickly return to fenced-in religious silos.
False Dilemma - Either you're meeting with the Lord's Recovery (TM), OR you're satisfying "the lust of your own preference." It's one or the other.

Oooohhhh, great breakdown, GraceAlone! The "false dilemma" one had slipped by me, but it's SO OFTEN USED by the amorphous blob of LSM/DCP/co-workers/ministry, etc! The more you read of their stuff the more you see just how much they use inflammatory language paired with logical fallacies to just flatten the saints.

Their stuff is so packed with issues it's almost no wonder no one goes head-to-head with them in real-time....literally who has the TIME to breakdown a single 15-paragraph article so densely packed with falsehoods much less countless articles and teachings and books?! Argh.

Trapped

Ohio · 11-06-2021, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

I visit the website and have a strong feeling regarding their way of making a statement. It's like a press conference publicly with the comment function closed. It's really LR's style, total submission, and listening. No opinions are allowed, and no doubts as well. It's nearly a communistic way of approach.

Correct. Controlling and abusive groups tend to employ similar tactics.

WL came to America allowing numerous freedoms in the LC's. He even played up the differences as indicative of the true oneness of the Spirit. Many true Americans were thus attracted to his ministry.

Slowly and definitely WL introduced ministry controls over all the LC's. Gifted brothers were quarantined for being "different" which really meant that they refused LSM subjection to uniformity demands. WL even orchestrated those so-called "storms" as a means to further his dominance. His son Philip was brought on as a "hit man" during the "New Way" of the 80's, using tactics and sayings drawn directly from the CCP.

Sons to Glory! · 11-06-2021, 08:39 AM

Many of us were blessed by the freedoms we experienced there in the 60s, 70s and to some extent early 80s (in some places). Sad to say the controls/weirdness came and got tighter and tighter, until it squeezed the Spirit out the door completely! I praise the Lord He took me there and I praise Him He led me out!

Ohio · 11-06-2021, 11:07 AM

Quote:

When problems arise among believers, the response is all too often the beginning of another fellowship based on a misinterpretation of the “twos and threes” in Matthew 18. According to the New Testament, it is in the context of a local church that problems among believers are resolved. In returning to the ground of the church and applying the cross by the Spirit, the believers are supplied to function as members to build up the Body in love. In this way the functioning of the members locally builds up the Body of Christ universally.

I lived thru and intensely studied the Midwest Quarantines of the 2000's, so I call B.S. on all this bogus pseudo-scriptural talk by LSM. What they practice and what they publish never matches. There is no "Ground of Oneness" at LSM. All of their talk of *ONENESS* is merely smokescreen and obfuscation to deceive and subjugate their remaining members.

These are simply the facts. I lived thru it for 30 years. As long as you never venture out of their hermetically-sealed information bubble, you believe everything they say, even as they push the manipulation-envelope to new limits every year. Push back at your own risk. Part of what really ticked off these aging Blendeds was using drums and electric guitars in the young people meetings. Egads!

The Blended Brothers behave no differently than the College of Cardinals which run the Catholic Church. They both publish their approved messages and teachings for all member churches. They both endorse a prescribed list of practices. They both will rule over local or regional leaders which do not adhere to their codes of uniformity. They both define all teachings and practices whether they conflict with Scripture or not. They both train and approve future leaders. Getting past superficial differences, the similarities are endless.

Zezima · 11-06-2021, 02:52 PM

Why are they putting out all this content right now? Is there something happening?

Robert · 11-06-2021, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Why are they putting out all this content right now? Is there something happening?

I am curious too.
In my opinion reasons can be few.
Nr of sold books is decreasing.
In this corporation finally some smart guy made statistic graph about leaving them members.
Few new YT clips came out with ex members testimonies.
Some time ago they also distansed them self from On line Recovery Bible and web site made in Ukraine, because there is also letter from John Ingalls.
So it seems that as good corporation they want to strenght the weakest points in their company which is people thinkig for themselves.
If I found live and hot heart for the Lord and saints in that letter, then few thousands other saints can find too!
This is iteresting, that Lord Jesus thought us to love enemies. So how much more we should love brothers who are ours "enemies"?
Til now I hear devilish speech from Ron Kangas and Minoru about John Ingalls and dear brather who left us last time.
I thik they build strong fence to protect flock. But they missed in their blindness, that actually they told us 30 years ago to leave a farm, not stay behind fence, to be free and follow Christ ( later to follow church, which actually was WL himself).

Robert · 11-06-2021, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I lived thru and intensely studied the Midwest Quarantines of the 2000's, so I call B.S. on all this bogus pseudo-scriptural talk by LSM. What they practice and what they publish never matches. There is no "Ground of Oneness" at LSM. All of their talk of *ONENESS* is merely smokescreen and obfuscation to deceive and subjugate their remaining members.

These are simply the facts. I lived thru it for 30 years. As long as you never venture out of their hermetically-sealed information bubble, you believe everything they say, even as they push the manipulation-envelope to new limits every year. Push back at your own risk. Part of what really ticked off these aging Blendeds was using drums and electric guitars in the young people meetings. Egads!

The Blended Brothers behave no differently than the College of Cardinals which run the Catholic Church. They both publish their approved messages and teachings for all member churches. They both endorse a prescribed list of practices. They both will rule over local or regional leaders which do not adhere to their codes of uniformity. They both define all teachings and practices whether they conflict with Scripture or not. They both train and approve future leaders. Getting past superficial differences, the similarities are endless.

Ohio, how You can read my thoughts?!
This is forbidden here and against rules!

))
I see many here having more or less similar experience and conclusions.
We have to call it by name.
This is air bubble.
I remember, during spreading Bibles or books ( not gospel) one student came closer to the table. We started talk. He was very open. I wanted to talk about his believes, him himself, but one of saint joined us and started pushing to subject obout WL, his books and RV Bible.

I got in my spirit big kick. I felt spiritual death.. For me, all those books was as background for gospel and saving people. Good ideas, oneness, etc. but still I was interested in reality. But after many situations I awake ad noticed as You. This is BS . I got thought "We talk about different things , they say church I say church, they mean one thing i mean another.

If we trust, that certain person is born from God in real, then we do not worry about her. Because we know in 100% that God will lead his child. But fruit of their works is that they are jealous, use force, indoctrination, maniplation to gain their member. This is most satanic and subtle work in saints I have ever seen in my live!

Nell · 11-06-2021, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Why are they putting out all this content right now? Is there something happening?

Zezima,

Maybe.

With the increasing ability and ease of searching the Internet and using social media, the LC is losing its ability to control information its membership has access to. It used to be easier to control what people do and say, because of the close knit community. In Texas, we were shamed if we owned a TV. Now, everyone has a computer, a Smart Phone, an iPad. Probably all 3. You can search for information and they will never know. This is a far greater threat to them than watching TV ever was.

They can’t control Social Media, and Google searches for “Witness Lee”. People can, and do, find information covertly. This is likely having an impact on almost every aspect of the the LC, especially information control, and maybe Accounts Receivable.

Just my thought. What do you think?

Nell

Zezima · 11-06-2021, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Zezima,

Maybe.

With the increasing ability and ease of searching the Internet and using social media, the LC is losing its ability to control information its membership has access to. It used to be easier to control what people do and say, because of the close knit community. In Texas, we were shamed if we owned a TV. Now, everyone has a computer, a Smart Phone, an iPad. Probably all 3. You can search for information and they will never know. This is a far greater threat to them than watching TV ever was.

They can’t control Social Media, and Google searches for “Witness Lee”. People can, and do, find information covertly. This is likely having an impact on almost every aspect of the the LC, especially information control, and maybe Accounts Receivable.

Just my thought. What do you think?

Nell

Possibly, usually this sort of content is coupled by an event. But I haven’t been meeting with them for a bit now I’m out of the loop. I does read like a response though.

Trapped · 11-06-2021, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Possibly, usually this sort of content is coupled by an event. But I haven’t been meeting with them for a bit now I’m out of the loop. I does read like a response though.

The website was originally set up to respond to many of the issues brought up by Jo Casteel's Facebook letter. The letter "spread like wildfire", according to the LC, and LSM had to have a place where they could address things in a way where no one who sees through them could respond. Anything they did on social media or other similar formats meant they had to monitor the pages so they could delete the "negative" responses of former members trying to hold them accountable.

shepherdingwords.com is really, like, ineffectualwords.com, or weakattemptsatcontinuingthelies.com......

If I remember correctly, when Jacob Howard uploaded a blog post or two to his site, not long after that, new articles appeared on shepherdingwords.com related to the same subject matter - the 1000 year punishment, etc.

So as far as I've concluded, DCP does its best to keep its pulse on the growing heartbeat of voices speaking out against them, and they use shepherdingwords.com to try to plug the leaks spouting from their crumbling dam.

Some of the things they have written are so egregious, I also hope they are undone by their own words, and pray that their putting things in such explicit writing (thoughts that are essentially like "reading the Bible without Witness Lee is unbiblical and dangerous") will backfire and actually turn more people away. God can use anything!

Trapped

soloscriptura · 11-06-2021, 09:26 PM

Most quotes are taken from the BITE model, which can be found here:
https://freedomofmind.com/wp-content...ut-9-23-16.pdf

Very glad Steven Hassan has made this available as a resource, I use this model extensively to show the fallacies of shepherdingwords.com in the article titled: Being Safeguarded by the Discernment in the Body
https://shepherdingwords.com/being-s...t-in-the-body/

The numbers that go along with the 4 different types of control come straight from the BITE model based on what they wrote. In this specific article I found Behavior, Information, Thought, and Emotional control as based on these points, so no not all the points, just specific numbers & letters from the BITE model.

Behavior Control:
10. Impose rigid rules and regulations.

Information Control:
1. Deception:

a. Deliberately withhold information
b. Distort information to make it more acceptable
c. Systematically lie to the cult member

2. Minimize or discourage access to non-cult sources of information, including:

a.Internet,TV,radio,books,articles,newspapers,maga zines, other media
b. Critical information
c. Former members

Thought Control:
1.Forbid critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy allowed

Emotion Control:
8. Phobia indoctrination: inculcating irrational fears about leaving the group or questioning the leader’s authority

a.No happiness or fulfillment possible outside of the group
b.Terrible consequences if you leave: hell, demon possession, incurable diseases, accidents, suicide, insanity, 10,000 reincarnations, etc. (in this case, in LR terms: you’ll be "deadened" or "poisoned")
c.Shunning of those who leave; fear of being rejected by friends and family
d.Never a legitimate reason to leave; those who leave are weak, undisciplined, unspiritual, worldly, brainwashed by family or counselor, or seduced by money, sex, or rock and roll

“Those who bear responsibility in the ministry, the work, and the churches in the Lord’s recovery have a biblically mandated responsibility to protect the flock (Acts 20:28-31; 1 Pet. 5:2; Titus 1:9). [Don’t disagree with that, emphasis on the biblically mandated responsibility from God.] In performing that duty they may advise the saints not to read writings in print or on the Internet that attack the local churches and the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. [Information Control] A few have miscast this fellowship as an attempt to hide the “truth” regarding the history of the recovery or to deprive others of the freedom to read whatever they like. [Information Control & Behavior Control] However, this advice is not an exercise of control but the issue of a loving concern based on a discerning of the nature of these writings and their effect on those who read them. Such advice is based on important biblical principles to which we should give heed.[They said it themselves by explicitly saying the opposite, need I say more? Notice that they did not list the biblical principles, which should be the basis and reasoning as to why people should give heed to these writings. Behavior Control] 

(skipped a paragraph decided to go for the meaty stuff)

The ultimate goal of the writings from these external and internal sources is to overthrow the Lord’s recovery. Consequently, these writings are full of criticism, dissension, questionings, rumors, accusations, innuendos, and the misrepresentation of facts and historical events. [Emotion Control & Thought Control] By design they sow seeds of doubt, suspicion, and even malice toward the ministry and the leadership in the recovery, causing the saints to question the revelation and enjoyment they have received through the ministry and the church life, even the things that first caused them to take the way of the recovery. Unlike the ministry, which nourishes its readers with the opening of the Bible and the appreciation and exaltation of Christ, these negative writings leave readers confused, unsettled, and deadened. In doing so, they betray their real source, which is the serpent, Satan (Eph. 4:14, footnote 5). [Emotion Control & Information Control] "

I now realize how all of these websites are just an act of information control to continually push out more propaganda, and I didn't see that before so thanks Steven Hassan. Being able to see exactly how they manipulate people has been really necessary in being able to deconstruct what I was taught in the LR. I have no idea if I labelled these correctly, but this was just taking a shot at it and matching it up with the BITE model.

Zezima · 11-06-2021, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

The website was originally set up to respond to many of the issues brought up by Jo Casteel's Facebook letter. The letter "spread like wildfire", according to the LC, and LSM had to have a place where they could address things in a way where no one who sees through them could respond. Anything they did on social media or other similar formats meant they had to monitor the pages so they could delete the "negative" responses of former members trying to hold them accountable.

shepherdingwords.com is really, like, ineffectualwords.com, or weakattemptsatcontinuingthelies.com......

If I remember correctly, when Jacob Howard uploaded a blog post or two to his site, not long after that, new articles appeared on shepherdingwords.com related to the same subject matter - the 1000 year punishment, etc.

So as far as I've concluded, DCP does its best to keep its pulse on the growing heartbeat of voices speaking out against them, and they use shepherdingwords.com to try to plug the leaks spouting from their crumbling dam.

Some of the things they have written are so egregious, I also hope they are undone by their own words, and pray that their putting things in such explicit writing (thoughts that are essentially like "reading the Bible without Witness Lee is unbiblical and dangerous") will backfire and actually turn more people away. God can use anything!

Trapped

Can’t help but think in a world with biased media, and knowledge of bias media. That those in the generations that never knew an non-internet world…blog posts like these come across as extremely biased, and propaganda. Why would a faith based organization, filled with fallen man be any different?

Indiana · 11-07-2021, 10:47 AM

“In the 1980s Brother Lee addressed similar accusations by saying, “All problems can and should be solved through proper and adequate fellowship by praying together sincerely and thoroughly. Any question and any problem can be solved by fellowship” (The Intrinsic View of the Body of Christ, 98). I sent a letter to LSM encouraging fellowship among the brothers and with me over the points I made in my first writing. Instead of responding to me I was turned over to my elders who informed me of the disciplinary measures they were placing on me based on Anaheim’s recommendation.

https://lordsrecovery.us/HidingHistoryNoMore.pdf

Robert · 11-07-2021, 03:57 PM

To Indiana.
You mentioned about "no more hiding".
Let me exercise my mind on this part of their article below and say what You think...

From shepherdingWords (https://shepherdingwords.com/hiding-history/)
Article - Hiding history?
"Daystar – A Failed Business
One largely misunderstood matter is the history of Daystar Motor Homes. The never-realized profits from the manufacture and sales of Daystar recreational vehicles

1.were intended to support full-time workers and the acquisition of church meeting halls as the local churches spread.
2. A small minority of members of various local churches either invested in or loaned funds to Daystar. The business failed. Regrettably, investors lost money.
3.Those who made loans to Daystar were repaid except when the loan was explicitly forgiven by the lender.
4.No local church was involved with the ownership or operation of Daystar."

1. "intented" -Intention is a matter of mind and heart. Those are placed in man. So the question is: by whom intended? WL? Did really all saints where informed that they can lose money and have debt on account?

Let say I ask my local brother for financial help. As loving brother I have responsibility to not cause problem in his family. We do not see in whole Bible such a example. So they missed rut of this problem. He never should ask saints for money. So, I do not believe that explanation.

2. " A small minority of members of various local churches"- Let's take a look closer word after word...Small number... they do not say that some used pension funds. They do not mention about amounts. One person could invest 50 thousands, 10 thousands, 5 000 dollars. Times "small minority" can give whatever. So there are magic words making impression " common guys! nothing happened! That was only pension fund! That was only 10000 Dolars! We are honest and not hiding history".

3.Those who made loans to Daystar were repaid except when the loan was explicitly forgiven by the lender. I don't think all saints were repaid.

I heard one tape with record of both sides. One brother who gave money and WL. First time I heard WL in private conversation. WL was rude and dishonest. Like simply man on street. I hope to find this record again. So, how do You think, what this brother and others could do in such a situation? Sue WL? It was masterpiece what he did at that time. If take of christian factor, this would be case for court.
Honest saints, who trusted him in love, factor of believe, Jesus, oneness... Uhhh! I suppose that mostly it was pain and suffer and saying " what can I do, let it be" > Forgiven? Even if so, there was a sin or fault to forgive! But no word about mistake and apologize.

4. For God's sake! Blind people!!!! Only members of local churches were involved but not local churches! So what is local church stupid people!!!!

Local church is people! 1 Cor 3.19 For the wisedom of this world is foolishnesse with God: for it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
So don't worry saints, no church was hurt! Ufff! Relief!

Robert · 11-07-2021, 05:05 PM

Part two. I could not stand it.
In the Lord’s recovery we do not hide our history. Rather, our practice is to examine our history, learn the lessons that can be derived from that history, and pass those lessons on to succeeding generations. In doing so, exposing division, wrongdoing, false teachings, and injurious practices among former workers is unavoidable. This is consistent with the practice of the Lord’s servants in the New Testament (1 Tim. 1:20; 2 Tim. 2:17; 4:14; 3 John 9).

At the same time, when we relate this history, we endeavor to avoid exposing sensitive information of a private nature that would damage individual members, ex-members, opposers, or their families. It is not the local churches that are guilty of hiding history. Rather, there is a concerted effort by a small number of Internet critics to rewrite the history of the local churches to suit their own ends. For them, conclusions can be drawn without facts, contrary evidence can be ignored, and innuendo and rumor can be substituted for veracity. It is this distorted and often fabricated “history” that they claim we are “hiding.”

Look dears what verse they took to support lies and to manipulate. Very often we just read fast, and when we see verse we trust that " ok, there is writen in Bible". But is it? Let's check it! Start! ... if You think that I will quote only verse they gave us...

1 Timothy 1:19-20
19Holding faith, and a good conscience, which some having put away, concerning faith, have made shipwreck.

20Of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander, whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

So what this situation has to do with saints, who did not put away conscience and faith but want to have clear view about situation? Because they asked, they are shipwrecked in the faith? Should they be blind and have faith in WL and trust him?

2 Timothy 2:16-18
2:15 Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth.
2:16 But shun profane babblings: for they will proceed further in ungodliness,
2:17 and their word will eat as doth a gangrene: or whom is Hymenaeus an Philetus;
2:18 men who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some.

We see here profane babblings, Hymenaeus again. And what for he was condemned? For babblings and spreading false doctrine that "resurection is past already". So is it clear picture? So again, with with the stubbornness of a maniac: What this verse has to do with seeking the truth and desire : Eph 5:27
that he might present the church to himself a glorious [church], not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."?

2 Timothy 4:14
Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord will render to him according to his works:
4:15 of whom do thou also beware; for he greatly withstood our words.

Do we really know what this conflict was about? So they use this verse and build on two verse describing Paul's private conflict? And what Paul is saying? Other words God is just and will deal with Alexander so judgment do not belong to me. But because he was "the bad one" we can expect what reward he will receive. But again, what that has to do with honest saints who just ask and trust that fellowship will be in truth and reality? Nothing!

John 4-9
1:4 I have no greater joy than this, to hear about my children walking in truth.
1:5 Beloved, you do a faithful work in whatever you accomplish for those who are brothers and strangers.
1:6 They have testified about your love before the assembly. You will do well to send them forward on their journey in a manner worthy of God,
1:7 because for the sake of the Name they went out, taking nothing from the Gentiles.
1:8 We therefore ought to receive such, that we may be fellow workers for the truth.
1:9 I wrote to the assembly, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, doesn't accept what we say.
1:10 Therefore, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words. Not content with this, neither does he himself receive the brothers, and those who would, he forbids and throws out of the assembly."

We see here simple story about receiving saints and helping them. So who is Diotrephes in article?
First time i hear that seeking the truth saint forbid others to contact saints in LC. This is BS.
I know several cases that so called blended almost for nothing recommended saints in letters sent to many churches to not contact and receive saints! I know details! Rumors and gossiping among saints without checking facts. So should we condemn if in opposite to this we want to clarify situation to not give enemy access to us? What is the fruit of this falls accusation from blended? What is the fruit of hiding the truth? Lies.

In verse 9: by name please, by name. I do not know for now any brother who had such ambition.
But I know blended, who never apologize, make phone calls behind back and made meetings dealing with problems not inviting saints involved in conflict. This is walking in truth? I know too much to buy it.

Robert · 11-07-2021, 05:27 PM

At the same time, when we relate this history, we endeavor to avoid exposing sensitive information of a private nature that would damage individual members, ex-members, opposers, or their families. It is not the local churches that are guilty of hiding history. from article below.

Wait a minute... This is what they meant, yes?
These scathing attacks extended beyond the sisters directly involved. He accused one sister’s extended family of being a “Klan,” engaging in Nazi-style propaganda, and seeking a “public execution” of her husband, saying that they wished him to be “skinned and then hung and then burned alive.” He said those who disagreed with him were the family’s “minions” whipped into a “hysteria” akin to the Salem witch trials. Faithful brothers in the Lord who urged restraint were dismissed as “mentally or intellectually challenged,” “morally dishonest,” and psychologically unfit. These were not isolated incidents but a pattern of behavior over more than two years manifested in literally hundreds of emails, some of which were addressed directly to the OKC leading ones. Even if his emails had been grounded with provable facts (and they were not), it is a grievous abuse to expose the saints’ private matters, to rail on their perceived failures and weaknesses, and to tarnish their reputations with such inflammatory language. It grieves us even to mention these words, but we are compelled to do so in an effort to recover, preserve, and establish saints who have been affected by them, as well as to set the record straight for others and for posterity that these aberrant actions do not represent the Lord or the ministry and the churches in His recovery.

Moreover, instead of counseling and modeling restraint as some of the co-workers advised him to do, more emails were sent out, deriding the co-workers who tendered that advice, saying that they were “overstepping,” “undermining,” “supporting division” and acting as “bishops” in a “hierarchy.” He characterized them as “‘shooting from the hip’ without a ‘full deck.’” He said that they drank the family’s “cool-aid” [sic] and that the saints who listened to them did the same because those co-workers “have more stars on their chest.” He misrepresented their counsel of restraint as advocating that the accused brother “be thrown under the bus, essentially be excommunicated.” When some co-workers visited the OKC area and spoke with some of the parties involved, he said that the sister in one of the disputes “played the brothers like a fiddle.” Brothers, such talk is unquestionably divisive.

It is not the local churches that are guilty of hiding history. Of course not! Because it is local church who ask YOU! blended to be honest and walk in truth! Blended brothers is not local church!

Sorry saints but anger is coming closer and closer. I have to keep calm. If there is anything like holy anger then I have it. Anger on Blinded Brothers who trade with truth and Word. This is sect and cult for sure. But I was there and I know a lot of innocent and naive saints. I really love and miss them. So who divided the Body?

Zezima · 11-07-2021, 10:38 PM

Robert, you write three very long posts. Can you shorten it be 2.8 posts?

Robert · 11-08-2021, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Robert, you write three very long posts. Can you shorten it be 2.8 posts?

Yes, yes... I know. I am sorry for that overflow.
I will try to be more condensed in words.
I've put some quotes twice unnecessarily which also made them longer.
Love You all for correction!

Nell · 11-08-2021, 06:23 AM

Only a true Shepherd can offer "Shepherding Words".
John 10:1-6 10 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

Entering the sheepfold by some other way
Witness Lee tried to enter the sheepfold by another way...himself. His own "ministry." For awhile, we may have heard the voice of Witness Lee, but eventually, through spiritual discernment (which we're not given credit for having), we realized that this is not the voice of our Shepherd.

Even though I met Witness Lee personally once (woo-hoo!) he likely forgot my name as soon as he heard it. I no longer, by any means, follow this stranger. I run from his words. I don't know his voice. In the same way, I don't know the voices (or the names) of those who are anonymously speaking on shepherdingwords.org.

The Good Shepherd
John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

There are shepherds and there are hirelings. The hirelings do not own the sheep, though they sometimes act like they do. The hirelings speak to us as though we belong to them...condescending...dismissive ...rebuke ... bullying. In this case, the hirelings behave like the wolves. They don't protect us as they would have us believe. They defend themselves and their history of following someone who is not the Good Shepherd.

What the hirelings don't understand is that ... we can't hear them. We don't believe them. Or maybe, just the opposite... we DO hear them, and we DO see them for what they are...hirelings.

What do shepherdingwords sound like?

Grace and Truth
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
...
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

The Good Shepherd was graceful and merciful even to His death.

Nell
579 words

Word Counter

aron · 11-09-2021, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indiana

“In the 1980s Brother Lee addressed similar accusations by saying, “All problems can and should be solved through proper and adequate fellowship by praying together sincerely and thoroughly. Any question and any problem can be solved by fellowship” (The Intrinsic View of the Body of Christ, 98). I sent a letter to LSM encouraging fellowship among the brothers and with me over the points I made in my first writing. Instead of responding to me I was turned over to my elders who informed me of the disciplinary measures they were placing on me based on Anaheim’s recommendation.

The website should be called "CloakingWords.com", because everyone knows what they mean inside the LC. It's a cloak. The naïve visitor thinks, "Oh, everything's on the up-and-up here." That's what I felt. "So scrupulous to cite chapter and verse!" How wonderful! Then, when it's no longer convenient, chapter and verse are ignored. Bait and switch at its most effective.

The reality is that whatever the LC Deputy God wants is proper, genuine and adequate. Nothing else is. DG can contradict himself from message to message, Early Nee (or Lee) can be 180 degrees from the later one, the scripture is hacked up and then cobbled together to create Frankenstein monsters, Christian history is selectively ignored, then very selectively waved, and it's all so very proper and adequate, because that's what DG is doing today. Everything DG does is proper and adequate, because DG is doing it.

I remember the story from the FTTT in the late '80s. It was explained to the assembly who reported to whom. One of them stammered out, "But that's a hierarchy!" The blithe reply was, "When others do it, it's a hierarchy. But when we do it, it's not a hierarchy." Because when we do it, it's of course all very proper and adequate.

Indiana · 11-09-2021, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indiana

“Brother Lee addressed similar accusations by saying, 'All problems can and should be solved through proper and adequate fellowship by praying together sincerely and thoroughly. Any question and any problem can be solved by fellowship” (The Intrinsic View of the Body of Christ, 98).
https://lordsrecovery.us/HidingHistoryNoMore.pdf

I got "proper" and more than "adequate" fellowship from former leaders. Not from blending brothers, LSM, or my elders

John Ingalls shared in 2001:

Dear brother Steve,

Thank you for sending all the correspondence you have had with other brothers. Though I have not replied for some time, I want you to know that I am still very interested in your burden. There are many dear brothers in the LSM that I would love to have restored fellowship. Certainly two of them are Sherman and Dave Higgins. I met a brother the other day coming out of a store into which I was entering. I recognized him as one I had seen at times in the past, and then suddenly I knew his name, Rick Scatterday, We greeted one another and had most cordial and happy fellowship for a few minutes, with no mention whatever of any problems in the past or any special relationships to cloud us. It was most encouraging. Rick is traveling and ministering in various places.

May the Lord continue to bring His people together with Himself as the Head and center and the only focus. That is His house.

In His name, John

aron · 11-10-2021, 12:48 AM

I think that the most important thing is to have peace. Without peace, who can love?* We're reduced to a kind of nervous energy. In reacting to LSM organs such as Shepherding Words, Defense and Confirmation Project or Affirmation & Critique, there's a kind of knee-jerk indignation, seeing what they write versus what's known to have happened. Poster Robert writes of a sort of "holy anger" welling up within.

But my anger isn't holy, because it's shot through with unresolved personal issues. I got snookered - I was looking for love in all the wrong places, as the country song goes, and wound up in a cult. Now I'm angry about the fact that I got snookered. But James wrote, "For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God." I can't let unresolved childhood issues work through my posts, and my anger spread out to the world.

But Christ died for our peace. We have peace toward God our Father and likewise to all around.** We may question, and should question, but abiding peace must remain. The price Jesus paid for our peace was high. "My peace, I give to you. Remain in my peace. Don't let it go."

Questions, however, are necessary.*** And we should ask them until SW and DCP and A&C respond adequately.

Why does LSM sell God's Plan of Redemption by Mary E. McDonough and other such books by women, if women can't teach? Why did WN copy Jessie Penn-Lewis in his Spiritual Man, if women can't teach? Why did WN have senior co-workers Ruth Lee and Peace Wang if women can't bear responsibility and authority in the church? Clearly RL and PW did. Yet 100 years later, it's no longer allowed? Why are such rules, apparently scripturally-based, so erratically kept?

Why did WN have a library of 3,000 spiritual classics if only one publication is allowed? Don't tell me that each one of these 3,000 classics was written by one of the successive ministers of the age? And if not, and WN could safely and profitably pick through literally thousands of non-MOTA tomes, why can't we?

Why were we told the age had turned when WL died? Yet no scripture was offered. Why is that?

Why does the RecV footnote say that people are healed by the leaves of the tree of life, and live forever, but then it says that this is not eternal life? How do the words 'forever' and 'eternal' mean different things in the same passage? Please answer via scripture, not supposition.

For that matter, how does giving a cup of cold water to a believer during the Great Tribulation get one "forever-healed human life" yet at any other point in human history it's apparently vain to give a cup of cold water to a believer because works are dead? Would God so arbitrarily overturn the eternal laws?

How does a RecV footnote in Psalms say that an imprecation is "fallen human concept" or "mixed sentiment" or "natural" because we're called in the NT to bless not curse, yet in other Psalms the same writing is said to be a type of Christ defeating Satan?

How could Paul ask Timothy to remain in Ephesus and to teach "intensification" as intrinsically part of God's economy, if Paul's never seen teaching this himself? Clearly the God's economy of Witness Lee and the God's economy of Paul/Timothy are markedly different. How to reconcile this?

Why do the noted facts on Daystar in LSM website omit the role of Timothy Lee? All independent observers place him as prominent, even as the motivator and key player, and other narratives have him in similar past roles (e.g., the 1962 Seattle World's Fair). Yet in the SW website narrative he doesn't exist. Clearly the roles of immediate family members of WL affected the "storms, turmoils and rebellions" in the LC. Yet they're omitted by SW.

What if Peter had taken the funds laid at his feet in the early chapters in Acts, and started a for-profit business run by his immediate family members? Don't you think that would affect the narrative of Acts? Yet there's this pretense in ShepherdingWords.com that such things never occurred.

Now, can we ask such questions without being bitter, or angry, or vindictive? I hope so, and will keep trying. There are probably a lot of such questions to be asked.

*See, e.g., 1 John 4:20

**Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another? ~Malachi 2:10 (cf 1 Cor 8:6)

***Acts 17:11

Indiana · 11-10-2021, 12:30 PM

SO GOOD ARON! AND NEEDED.
-

Bible-believer · 11-11-2021, 12:28 AM

You spoke my mind. I asked the same questions and ended up losing my friendship with close friends. I was given a hint to shut up or to leave the group.
-

aron · 11-11-2021, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

asked the same questions and ended up losing my friendship with close friends. I was given a hint to shut up or to leave the group.

Anyone who tries to think about what they are being presented by the so-called ministry will find their enjoyment meter going down. Because a lot of what is being presented doesn't make much sense, frankly. Some of it makes no sense.

Instead, we are told, "Don't think! Drink!" and we are told that a question mark is shaped like a serpent. And if we try to speak up we are told that we are being negative, rebellious, ambitious, or stuck in our mind. Then the fellowship meter starts going down. So one is reduced to a kind of outward, rote performance, with whatever supposed reality laying behind the outward performance having long since left.

Or we physically leave the group, emotionally wounded, as we once tearfully pledged our all, and now it is all gone. We leave physically, but our brains are still programmed with ministry rhetoric, and our confused hearts unable to hold or love anything, as what we once thought we loved has vanished into aether. We find out that it was cobwebs and dust, but it's left such a hole that we no longer trust, we gave up seeking. If that isn't real, what is?

I contend that the ability to think, to ask, to seek, to feel, to wonder are all still there. They just got repressed for a while. But the spirit is still there. Seek and you will find. Ask and it will be given to you. Knock, and the door opens. It just takes a little faith, and a little effort, consistently applied.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indiana

SO GOOD ARON! AND NEEDED.

I appreciate the affirmation. I always appreciated the tone of your posts, and if in any way I've been able imitate them as you have imitated Christ, in mildness and continued good will, with a spirit of reconciliation always hovering nearby, I suppose I'm so much the better for it.

In my case, I do tend to vitriol, but I usually recognise the source and repent, and come back to the land of the living, and try to dwell among those in the light. And that I can appreciate those in mildness, and attempt to imitate, is a hopeful sign. Small but hopeful.

Zezima · 11-11-2021, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I think that the most important thing is to have peace. Without peace, who can love?* We're reduced to a kind of nervous energy. In reacting to LSM organs such as Shepherding Words, Defense and Confirmation Project or Affirmation & Critique, there's a kind of knee-jerk indignation, seeing what they write versus what's known to have happened. Poster Robert writes of a sort of "holy anger" welling up within.
Now, can we ask such questions without being bitter, or angry, or vindictive? I hope so, and will keep trying. There are probably a lot of such questions to be asked.

Appreciate your attempt to direct people, however spiritual bypassing is incredibly unhealthy and toxic. There’s nothing wrong with people facing their God given emotions and working through them. We can be bitter, vindictive, and angry over our experiences in the LR, please don’t try to silence the feelings of others with spiritual talk.

Let people feel what they are feeling, let them have a safe place to express it. That’s the only way they can work through their emotions. Even Jesus wept.

aron · 11-11-2021, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Let people feel what they are feeling, let them have a safe place to express it. That’s the only way they can work through their emotions. Even Jesus wept.

Oh sure! I totally agree. Believe me, I have hundreds of posts here where I've vented pretty thoroughly. The reason that I was able to write this post, of looking at my own anger, is that 1) I've written many many posts in the moment of anger 2) that people have called me on it 3) the process of venting and getting called on it allowed me somewhat to step back and consider.

It is in that consideration that I respond. I think venting is great therapy. I don't want to shut others down and apologise if it came off that way.

I have said before, that when the demons came out in the NT sometimes it didn't look pretty. Rolling in the dust, shouting etc. But eventually, there is peace. It is that moment of peace that I look to. But I don't repress the process to get there. Sometimes yelling and arm-waving is involved. Lord knows I've done my share.

Thank you

UntoHim · 11-11-2021, 09:18 AM

Zezima, Robert and others,

Far be it from me to run interference for anyone (except for myself occationally

.) ....but I think what we have here is a bit of a generational difference. Most of the time aron's posts are speaking to himself and the rest of us old-timers. If you look up the words "bitter, vindictive and angry" in the LCD dictionary it simply shows a picture of UntoHim, with a secondary definition given as Ohio and aron. Trust me, it takes a lot of work and effort to ascend to such lofty heights of bitterness and causticness...in our cases, we've been at it for about decade and a half now.

Seriously though, what is with us 21st century Christians? It seems we spend 95% of our time and energy fighting what we are against, instead of the other way around. Maybe we would all do well to pray-read todays quote. Altogether now.... "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, But because he loves what is behind him."
-

Robert · 11-11-2021, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Appreciate your attempt to direct people, however spiritual bypassing is incredibly unhealthy and toxic. There’s nothing wrong with people facing their God given emotions and working through them. We can be bitter, vindictive, and angry over our experiences in the LR, please don’t try to silence the feelings of others with spiritual talk.

Let people feel what they are feeling, let them have a safe place to express it. That’s the only way they can work through their emotions. Even Jesus wept.

I did not take it as an emotions silencing, Zezima, at all!
There are emotions in me, but who has not them?
Jesus was turning tables in the temple. Do You think He was cold like stone?
I think we are all balanced and normal human. After years following after Jesus, many of us can recognize how much of this anger comes from flesh misunderstanding or even from love.
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, But because he loves what is behind him."
I can say for my self: love for God and saints is main factor which causes me anger on false teaching, and deceiving people. It is not about me only, Zezima. I have no wound. If I had it is healed.
I have one brother, who is wounded and has bitterness in heart. He is still sick. I was encouraging him to be free and more focus on Jesus.
When I use exclamation mark or tone is high it does not mean I am sick spiritually or wounded. I rather have love and burden for them. If we stick to our Lord's heart we will feel His love and His hate. In many verses is written that He will destroy His enemies. All we know it is not people in flesh but Satan. "We do not fight with flesh...". This is normal to feel anger on enemy when we see damages he makes.
Resuming, I think everything is ok. and that was good point to not to lose peace. I have peace.

aron · 11-11-2021, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

and that was good point to not to lose peace. I have peace.

It's probably taken me longer than most, but I'm getting there. It's difficult on an anonymous internet forum to gauge one another. At my job there's a guy who goes around, stops us, and says, "You okay, brother? You okay?" I appreciate him, and my own self-assessments here are meant to facilitate others' as well. But as Zezima points out, we have to be careful not to lead others where they're not ready to go yet. Thank you all for the grace.

But it all goes back to why I wrote the post #38. One of the reactions to ShepherdingWords.com is certainly to get angry/upset/frustrated/etc. It's hard to watch people getting spiritually and psychologically abused, sometimes even physically, and there's this pretty obvious whitewash going on, to facilitate its continuance.

The most effective way to react is with clear logical thought (of course, with many of us, 'clear' and 'logical' are approximations, but we try). Lead them to their own words, point out the obvious discrepancies between what's written with what took place, the contradictions and mis-statements. Then, offer some possible alternatives. At one point, I tried to do this with "God's economy", for example. But my questions, and my alternatives, were meant to be a sample. Others may have other questions, and answers. That's why it's called "discussions".

Bible-believer · 11-11-2021, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Then the fellowship meter starts going down. So one is reduced to a kind of outward, rote performance, with whatever supposed reality laying behind the outward performance having long since left.

Recently, I have thought that things would be better if I never raised those questions. I would not lose the friendship and fellowship. I would not become "awkward" in their eyes. I would not be bestowed a strange look during the meeting. I would still have friends around and hang out together. I started doubting if I was making a huge mistake.
Why I wouldn't pretend I enjoy those shepherding words as before...
Well, I just can't. The more I know about the falsehood in LR, the less I can pretend. I cherish friendship and fellowship, but how about the Truth? It's the Truth setting me free.
The good old time with saints together, reading, singing, and praying, was good and real. Yet now it's gone like a wind. Some of them still talk to me politely when not touching LR's teaching.
And their relationship with me is merely an outward, a performance, with, maybe, a little bit of reality.

Trapped · 11-11-2021, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Recently, I have thought that things would be better if I never raised those questions. I would not lose the friendship and fellowship. I would not become "awkward" in their eyes. I would not be bestowed a strange look during the meeting. I would still have friends around and hang out together. I started doubting if I was making a huge mistake.
Why I wouldn't pretend I enjoy those shepherding words as before...
Well, I just can't. The more I know about the falsehood in LR, the less I can pretend. I cherish friendship and fellowship, but how about the Truth? It's the Truth setting me free.
The good old time with saints together, reading, singing, and praying, was good and real. Yet now it's gone like a wind. Some of them still talk to me politely when not touching LR's teaching.
And their relationship with me is merely an outward, a performance, with, maybe, a little bit of reality.

Do you have anyone in your daily life who you can get support (emotional, relational) from at the moment? The loss you are starting to experience is very real and very deep, and probably won't abate any time soon.

None of this is your fault. None of it would be better if you hadn't raised the questions. The questions just shined a light on the reality of the situation. All it took were some questions about the truth -- and that connected camaraderie has disappeared like the wind. That's not a real church family. That's exactly what a cult is.

Please keep us updated with how you are doing, feeling, and coping with this.

Trapped

Ohio · 11-12-2021, 07:07 AM

Back when the Midwest LC’s were quarantined, and LSM moved in to divide every LC, I read nearly every article on the “a faithful word” website. That’s when I decided to leave the Recovery. Last night I perused a few articles on this new “shepherding words” website. It’s unbearable. The lies and level of basic dishonesty have all deteriorated. These folks have no integrity.

Some may ask, how can this be? LSM teaches the Bible, gives trainings, publishes books, talks about God’s economy. The answer is twofold error. First the errant “ground of oneness.” They have convinced themselves that EVERY other Christian is divided, hopeless, and outside of “God’s economy,” and they ALONE are the truth bearers in the world. Second is their papal equivalent of “deputy authority.” They alone represent God on earth. God’s authority on earth is theirs alone to possess and employ.

In conclusion, they can do no wrong. Everything they do is, by definition, right. They are accountable to no one. Their ends justify any means they take. Their illusions of power have corrupted them. They have assumed the authority to rewrite history. Their writings are all “truth” simply because they wrote them.

Frightening!

Indiana · 11-12-2021, 07:26 AM

Hiding Philip Lee
A foremost example of leaders hiding history is their hiding of Philip Lee and his mortal role among the saints and churches. He was a devastating figure in our history but he is not included in the annals, as if he didn’t exist, and he doesn’t in LSM / DCP accounts of our church history. This is a big red flag that has thrown the question wide open regarding the integrity of our church leadership. Not bringing his name and his lethal activities front and center is to dismiss major incendiary elements of turmoil and division. Blame is placed on others instead, who stood against works of darkness at LSM, were “quarantined,” and also disgraced in the LSM annals of disrepute and false reporting.

http://www.lordsrecovery.us/HidingHi...eSafeguard.pdf

Cal · 11-16-2021, 07:50 AM

I'm curious. Does anyone think the Blendeds really believe their claims about themselves, or are they just cynical in their control?

Nell · 11-16-2021, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal

I'm curious. Does anyone think the Blendeds really believe their claims about themselves, or are they just cynical in their control?

I think there are more than 2 options:
1) believing their claims about themselves, or
2) just cynical in their control.

Add to these two options:
3) little or no love of the truth of the Word (not Lee's "truth")
4) delusional: having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions; maintaining false beliefs even when confronted with facts
5) False prophets (prophecy doesn't always mean "telling the future")
6) False teachers

I believe this is where the "blendeds" are:
2 Thess. 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Nell

Ohio · 11-16-2021, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indiana

Hiding Philip Lee
A foremost example of leaders hiding history is their hiding of Philip Lee and his mortal role among the saints and churches. He was a devastating figure in our history but he is not included in the annals, as if he didn’t exist, and he doesn’t in LSM / DCP accounts of our church history. This is a big red flag that has thrown the question wide open regarding the integrity of our church leadership. Not bringing his name and his lethal activities front and center is to dismiss major incendiary elements of turmoil and division. Blame is placed on others instead, who stood against works of darkness at LSM, were “quarantined,” and also disgraced in the LSM annals of disrepute and false reporting.

Even in the Midwest the mortal role of Philip Lee was hidden from us.

I read John Ingalls' account Speaking the Truth In Love in 2005 and immediately lost all respect for WL and the Blendeds.

Cal · 11-16-2021, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I think there are more than 2 options:
1) believing their claims about themselves, or
2) just cynical in their control.

Add to these two options:
3) little or no love of the truth of the Word (not Lee's "truth")
4) delusional: having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions; maintaining false beliefs even when confronted with facts
5) False prophets (prophecy doesn't always mean "telling the future")
6) False teachers

I agree they have false teaching, but false teachers can be deluded into thinking they're right, or they can just be cynically in it for themselves. I'm just wondering what people think the ratio is here.

For example, do they really think selling burial plots to members under the premise that it's good to be buried next to Witness Lee is a good thing? Or do they pretty much know it's a money-making scheme, possibly with the cognitive justification that making money for "the Recovery" justifies some grifting?

Ohio · 11-16-2021, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I believe this is where the "blendeds" are:
2 Thess. 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

I just read these verses this morning in relation to our political leaders, but no doubt they apply here too. Here's my conclusions:

Recovery leaders view the return to scriptures, the only standard of truth, as a "tactic of the enemy"
Their heretical views of Deputy Authority are a root of all evil, just look at the Pope, the Antichrist, and others who make such claims
The entire episode of Philip Lee, by definition, characterizes the deception of unrighteousness
When numerous men of God confronted Philip's ungodliness, WL and the Blendeds received not the love of the truth, rather held the truth down in unrighteousness (Rom 1.25)
Today a strong delusion clouds the Recovery concerning their history, their teachings, and their leadership, which together should be called "the lie"
Has not "the apostasy" in verse 3 already come to them? Have not they transitioned from a Christ-centered collection of churches to a WL-centered authoritative hierarchical sect? Why is it they must lie about who they are to gain new members?
By all accounts, could not Philip Lee be considered a man of lawlessness?

Trapped · 11-16-2021, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal

I'm curious. Does anyone think the Blendeds really believe their claims about themselves, or are they just cynical in their control?

At least one co-worker (not a blended per se, but at least a co-worker) knows full well that they use mind control techniques. No remorse.

DCP knows all the accusations made against the LC. In order to pretend defend themselves, they have to look at the accusations. They know what a cult is. They know what spiritual abuse is. They know what common false teachings are. They know how to use undue influence to keep people oppressed and trapped. It's all obvious the second you read about what all that stuff is.....to the point where at least one of them has admitted it, and yet continues on.

Some of them know what they are doing. I think some of them just bow their heads to the senior ones and are just left in submissive ignorance about what they are part of. But no one with an un-charred conscience can do and say what they do and say.

Whoever can teach and hear and affirm that "good is worse than evil"....I don't know.....that is some bone-chilling stuff.

Trapped

Cal · 11-16-2021, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

Some of them know what they are doing. I think some of them just bow their heads to the senior ones and are just left in submissive ignorance about what they are part of. But no one with an un-charred conscience can do and say what they do and say.

Whoever can teach and hear and affirm that "good is worse than evil"....I don't know.....that is some bone-chilling stuff.

Trapped

This is the fruit of the Deputy Authority teaching, showing it to be a doctrine of demons.

There is a hint about deputy authority in the bible, but my understanding is that it refers to secular authorities, not church authorities.

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. (etc) Romans 13:1-5.

Robert · 11-16-2021, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Quote:

I believe this is where the "blendeds" are:
2 Thess. 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Nell

Dave Hunt dealt with this verse some day. When we reject truth in our hearts and follow after delusion, teaching or man.
unrighteousness is injustice-gr. adikias
Luk.18.6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith .
Mostly adikias was used to describe injustice by wrong and subjective judgment.
God allowed such a people to sink in quicksand.

Year after year I noticed in their speeches more and more darknes, unjust accusations, unjust opinion. I could not believe one day, when I heard Ron saying by implication we have much more than a Pope! It was about WL. I would not take a risk to say this even as a joke. An audiance was laughing and happy. Ameeen! All You know about "Lee's spirit" by Minoru.

I know I was naive and simple Years ago, But Lord was always giving me red lights. But still, was sitting and... I don't know. It was so shocking that I could not believe it and I said to my self " for sure, it means something else".

But now, I see this clear that this is "strong delusion".

This is big lesson to me. To not ignore conscience, and verify always source- my heart.

Trapped · 11-16-2021, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal

This is the fruit of the Deputy Authority teaching, showing it to be a doctrine of demons.

There is a hint about deputy authority in the bible, but my understanding is that it refers to secular authorities, not church authorities.

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. (etc) Romans 13:1-5.

Yes, that is definitely in reference to governmental/secular authorities only. The co-workers do a nice bait-and-switch with that verse in one of their shepherdingwords articles to try to apply it to themselves, but all you need to do is read the verse in context to know they are trying to pull the wool over their readers eyes.

Also, that verse simply says the authorities have been established by God. it definitely does not say that they are God's deputy authorities, or that God has given any of His own authority to them.

God granted authority to Jesus. And He establishes other authorities. But those two things are different things. (I'm talking to the co-workers when I say that).

Trapped

Nell · 11-16-2021, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal

This is the fruit of the Deputy Authority teaching, showing it to be a doctrine of demons.

There is a hint about deputy authority in the bible, but my understanding is that it refers to secular authorities, not church authorities.

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. (etc) Romans 13:1-5.

I agree. The authorities we are subject to are the established civil authorities. Believers, siblings, have no scriptural authority over each other. Parents do have scriptural authority over their own children.

From Matt Anderson on laymansfellowship.com

Quote:

In order to establish sound doctrine, it is necessary to separate prescriptive instruction in the Bible from descriptive instruction. While the Bible does communicate heavily through word pictures, parables and analogies we have to be aware of the separation between the prescriptive aspects of the Word of God and the descriptive ones. This is especially important when it comes to establishing sound (i.e. healthy) doctrine.

The support for singular leaders to support the modern day concepts of church hierarchy (one sibling having authority over other siblings) is not prescriptive and only minor evidence can be found in the descriptive text. The descriptive text should not be taken in a direction that is different from the prescriptive teaching of Jesus on the same type of subject matter. Descriptive text should be understood in light of prescriptive portions of scripture.

Matt does note this distinction that there may not be

Quote:

the transfer of authority to a person EXCEPT for the scope of a message that is being delivered. This matches the idea of transmitted authority, not positional authority. The scope of the authority is limited to a specific action or message and does not grant permanent rights.

Nell

Indiana · 11-16-2021, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

At least one co-worker (not a blended per se, but at least a co-worker) knows full well that they use mind control techniques. No remorse.

DCP knows all the accusations made against the LC. In order to pretend defend themselves, they have to look at the accusations. They know what a cult is. They know what spiritual abuse is. They know what common false teachings are. They know how to use undue influence to keep people oppressed and trapped. It's all obvious the second you read about what all that stuff is.....to the point where at least one of them has admitted it, and yet continues on.

Some of them know what they are doing. I think some of them just bow their heads to the senior ones and are just left in submissive ignorance about what they are part of. But no one with an un-charred conscience can do and say what they do and say.

Whoever can teach and hear and affirm that "good is worse than evil"....I don't know.....that is some bone-chilling stuff.

Trapped

Submissive Ignorance Must be the case with many. Such a good way to describe it.

Indiana · 11-16-2021, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal

This is the fruit of the Deputy Authority teaching, showing it to be a doctrine of demons.

There is a hint about deputy authority in the bible, but my understanding is that it refers to secular authorities, not church authorities.

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. (etc) Romans 13:1-5.

www.DeputyAuthorityRunAmok.com

This was done in Response to DCP's "attack pack" as Nigel called it in 2007 or so.

I've got editing to do.

Indiana · 11-17-2021, 04:52 PM

"This is why in the New Testament the Apostle Paul would not tolerate any kind of immorality. In First Corinthians 5, Paul charged the church not to associate with that immoral person. The church as a pure testimony of Christ would not tolerate any impurity, any immorality. The church has to be pure.” W. L.

Turmoil in Local Church Testimony article 1988

https://www.lordsrecovery.us/tlc.pdf

Robert · 11-22-2021, 04:21 PM

About immorality few words.
I heard yesterday sister sharing about truths on line during conference.
She and her husband was in LC. They had big problems in marriage life.
Brother got no help from saints and me was not enough to help.
No body was interested to apply biblical way of fellowshiping and visiting and prayer.
All saint was focused on positive things, and avoid anything which sounds deadly and poisoning.
Result is, that this sensitive brother left home to save his mental health.

There are many stories like this but this was not my point.
There is another sister, which started to live in sin, telling others " so what, that sister could also do it..."
Just like school girl excusing herself.
This sad!
And what is interesting all they can connect on line and share while many sisters know about situation.

And when anybody wants to report anything brother or bring to fellowship, then nobody is mature enough to go and correct saints, bring to sanctification or just simply rebuke.
I know all of them and I am really sad seeing this double life.
And what they say always is : "Yes, we pray for them..."

aron · 11-26-2021, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Questions, however, are necessary. And we should ask them until SW and DCP and A&C respond adequately.

Another that recently surfaced: a Google search with "Witness Lee center meaning universe" came back with several different answers:

The human person. Remember the LC song, Hymn #1293 - "Oh, I'm a man - I'm the center and the meaning of the universe!"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIhnmOwFuJg

And https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9WbiJiNuYo

But wait... there's more! How about, The human spirit!?

The throne of God?

The tree of life?

Or, the cross?

Five separate items, each at one point deemed the center of the universe by MOTA. There are probably more - this was the first couple of pages of results. The question is, how can a supposed bible teacher keep changing things in front of so many, and so often, and nobody raises a hand to say, "Uhh, excuse us Herr Guru, but this is not what was taught last year"? What's most amazing isn't how WL changed things so radically, that "early Lee" and "later Lee" were now at odds, but that he was never called on it.

So I'd like to take this opportunity to ask "ShepherdingWords.com" to go through WL references to the 'center of the universe' and reconcile them. It's pretty confusing to the casual reader.

We've even seen LSM's apologetics-cum-promotion web sites do this. One's called "A godman dot com" and various pages say contradictory things. One page says that the throne of God is the center of the universe.

https://agodman.com/vision-throne-of...hout-universe/

"The throne of God is the center of the universe, and it is where the Lord is."

And then the same web site has another page that says something else, quite entirely - why, no - it's the cross! Silly us, what were we thinking back there!?

https://agodman.com/cross-center-uni...inciple-cross/

Robert · 11-28-2021, 02:50 PM

From article BEING SAFEGUARDED BY THE DISCERNMENT IN THE BODY

"1. In the physical realm, once the tongue has tasted that a substance is rancid, there is no need for other members of the body to contact that same thing to form their own opinions. Rather, all the other members with their various functions benefit from the function of the tongue as the tasting organ and are thereby preserved and safeguarded.

2. It is a great blessing and preservation for the saints to receive the ministry of
the more mature members, to accept the discernment of the Body, and to reject the temptation to
independently seek to discern the nature of negative writings. Behind this temptation is the implicit
assumption that one has the spiritual discernment, wisdom, capacity, knowledge of the facts, and freedom
in the spirit to accurately judge the matters involved.
3. To assume self-sufficiency is to disregard the Lord’s
placing of the members in His Body with their respective functions, violate the Body’s organic principle, lose the Body’s covering, and expose oneself to Satan's attack.
4. May the saints in the recovery look to the Lord that He would cause us all to grow in our discernment and consciousness of the Body for the protection,growth, and perfecting of each member unto the building up of the Body of Christ."

When I had a walk with my wife and our dog, I shared about this excerpt from article. Suddenly, Lord gave me better understanding of this false and deceitful article.

Ad 1. When we talk about body and members, do not forget about head. They do not mention it.
So let's say we have some food. It can taste sweet. But! Before we take it to the mouth we can feel it in hand and recognize by eyes. So they say about function of tongue. But what about function of others critical members? Should not we trust them? Let's say we have powder. Smells like ham, taste like ham, but this is powder. Will we eat it? Or rather brain has all information to decide to not eat it?
So we can see here manipulation even against logic. And btw all members are manged by head which is Christ Himself. So other words they teach heresy that tongue has authority to manage the body.

Trapped · 11-28-2021, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

From article BEING SAFEGUARDED BY THE DISCERNMENT IN THE BODY

"1. In the physical realm, once the tongue has tasted that a substance is rancid, there is no need for other members of the body to contact that same thing to form their own opinions. Rather, all the other members with their various functions benefit from the function of the tongue as the tasting organ and are thereby preserved and safeguarded.

2. It is a great blessing and preservation for the saints to receive the ministry of
the more mature members, to accept the discernment of the Body, and to reject the temptation to
independently seek to discern the nature of negative writings. Behind this temptation is the implicit
assumption that one has the spiritual discernment, wisdom, capacity, knowledge of the facts, and freedom
in the spirit to accurately judge the matters involved.
3. To assume self-sufficiency is to disregard the Lord’s
placing of the members in His Body with their respective functions, violate the Body’s organic principle, lose the Body’s covering, and expose oneself to Satan's attack.
4. May the saints in the recovery look to the Lord that He would cause us all to grow in our discernment and consciousness of the Body for the protection,growth, and perfecting of each member unto the building up of the Body of Christ."

When I had a walk with my wife and our dog, I shared about this excerpt from article. Suddenly, Lord gave me better understanding of this false and deceitful article.

Ad 1. When we talk about body and members, do not forget about head. They do not mention it.
So let's say we have some food. It can taste sweet. But! Before we take it to the mouth we can feel it in hand and recognize by eyes. So they say about function of tongue. But what about function of others critical members? Should not we trust them? Let's say we have powder. Smells like ham, taste like ham, but this is powder. Will we eat it? Or rather brain has all information to decide to not eat it?
So we can see here manipulation even against logic. And btw all members are manged by head which is Christ Himself. So other words they teach heresy that tongue has authority to manage the body.

Robert,

Great point! You are right - it's like they cannot help themselves....they HAVE to create this "just trust us" or "you have to blindly follow the one unique" one that they deceptively create.

I absolutely agree with your analogy - when I take milk out of my fridge.....I don't blindly pour it in a cup and only trust my tongue to determine if it is sour - I look at it, I swirl it around, I smell it, and I taste it, and I see how it lands in my stomach. The co-workers are always working towards a scenario where everyone is supposed to blindly trust the singular appointed member that supposedly never works in concert with other members.

The local church is a controlling, oppressive, scripture-twisting and logic-twisting group.

Trapped

Robert · 11-29-2021, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

From article BEING SAFEGUARDED BY THE DISCERNMENT IN THE BODY

[I]"1. In the physical realm, once the tongue has tasted that a substance is rancid, there is no need for other members of the body to contact that same thing to form their own opinions. Rather, all the other members with their various functions benefit from the function of the tongue as the tasting organ and are thereby preserved and safeguarded.

2. It is a great blessing and preservation for the saints to receive the ministry of
the more mature members, to accept the discernment of the Body, and to reject the temptation to
independently seek to discern the nature of negative writings. Behind this temptation is the implicit
assumption that one has the spiritual discernment, wisdom, capacity, knowledge of the facts, and freedom
in the spirit to accurately judge the matters involved.
3. To assume self-sufficiency is to disregard the Lord’s
placing of the members in His Body with their respective functions, violate the Body’s organic principle, lose the Body’s covering, and expose oneself to Satan's attack.
.

You know what, fellas?
I wanted to comment rest in next free time. But when I see this nonsense I am tired and feel humiliated to come so down to abolish and destroy this BS.
I can just imagine Ron or Minoru coming to Jesus at night saying all this BS nonsenses.
Bla, bla, bla. And then, Jesus just watching them patiently in silence...
I think Nicodemus was really blessed that Jesus wanted to talk to him.

So instead of multiplying this deadly poison, let me share something "positive" ( negative and positive sounds like psychology or electricians terminology).

Last time we visited one couple. They was in LC but they was not...
Our sister shared here experience from visiting two different home meetings in one week. It was after very difficult time.
First group was out of denomination. May be ten saints. It was wonderful and blessed time she hadn't for long time. Singing, sharing and reading the Bible.
She was satisfied in spirit and nourished. Generally very happy.

After two days, she went to LC group after months of absence.
She was so charged positively, that she brought some burden to share and to pray about.
After she finished... silence in room, no response and then, some one said: Well, according to our plan we will read... and so on, and bla, bla.
She felt like her spirit was quenched and death was in the air.

We started to recall our first joyful meetings in LC. But after years something happened. We lost something.
And amazing is that some honest groups can have presence of God with so little knowledge or even lack, about "sevenfold turbo charged high speed spirit" .

After that, I felt more free to tell her about that article. She could not believe what they said there.
I think that saints will leave this LC mostly because of lack of real live and poisoning religious people. If there would be one among ten, then no problem. Majority of saints should overcome death. But if You are alone versus 9 indoctrinated sleeping saints...

I am not going to spread any "negative" poison among saints. I trust the Lord, that all born again brothers and sisters have taste in them. Taste of life and taste of death.
Taste of life will bring them to Christ and other saints. But taste of death ( like in that article) will cause them to reject religious people and so called blended.

Prayer and waiting is what I can do about them.

12-02-2021, 08:11 AM

"I encourage all the young people to get a college degree. Do not make spirituality an excuse for not studying. Rather, study more diligently than the secular students, get the highest grades, and go on for advanced degrees. Do not stop with one Ph.D., but get two or three Ph.D.'s. Also learn to speak a number of other languages. Gain the “Tyrian” skills and the “Egyptian” knowledge. Become a doctor in biology, medicine, or nuclear physics.

There is a need in the Lord's recovery today for those with the highest education. Young people, you must endeavor to gain the best education. Arrange your daily schedule in this way: seven and a half hours for sleep, one and a half hours for eating, one hour for exercise, eight hours for study, and six hours for spiritual things. If you expend your energy in this way, by the time you are thirty you will be able to begin your ministry like the Lord Jesus did (Luke 3:23). Continue your studies until you are thirty. If many take this way, we shall have no shortage of pillar makers.

Do not get married too soon. I do not like to see the brothers getting married before the age of twenty-five. Do not be burdened down too soon with marriage and children. Rather, use your time and energy for studying. The age of twenty-six is soon enough for brothers to begin having children. Furthermore, I do not like to see the sisters getting married before the age of twenty-two. If the sisters marry too early and have children too soon, they may be overburdened and even spoiled. Follow the schedule I recommend until you are twenty-five years old and see what will be the issue. This surely is good for God's recovery."
(Raising Up the Next Generation for the Church Life, Chapter 17, Section 6 Compiles from the ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee - LSM)

1 John 2:15
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”

Looks like the old timers in the recovery are dying out with this whole pandemic thing, the money and donations are getting short, the lost generation are not contributing to the system as their parents did. The younger generation is a bit more advance on searching things online, so let's put up warning websites, and how do we replenish the system? Solution? Yes, lets hit all college campuses and recruit new blood, of highly educated people. They are already brainwashed, and what's a bit more of it would do? We just have to redirect them to give to the correct causes, correct things, after all, the higher the education = higher pay=more money=more LSM corporation will be buying up more buildings around the world! Hey, were are just all about spreading the "Truth" , LOL.

Grab some popcorn people! People in America are so naive to think that they are advancing something, when they are just a cash cows for all these worldwide travesties. You believe what you're told, and never actually verify where and how the money are being used. You will get a video from some third world country saying that we need your help, and you all feel oh so really bad, that you give your money and more to this.

Power, Money, Control, Brainwashing, Suppressing the Truth, Encouraging young people to not get married, waste time on pursuing worldly things, rebuilding the old testaments tabernacle "AKA" the church, this is what its all about people, wake up!

Indiana · 12-04-2021, 01:32 PM

www.lordsrecovery.us/ministrychurches.pdf

Nee’s statement:
"What havoc has been wrought in the Church because so many of her ministers have sought to bring the churches under their ministry, rather than by their ministry serve the churches. As soon as the churches are brought under any ministry, they cease to be local and become sectarian....

“And, the ‘churches’ established will be ‘ministerial churches’ not local ones.”
(pp138-139, Nee)

The ministry materials given in all the above references were to be safeguards for the churches to keep them in the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace. But the leadership has paid no attention to safeguards, guidelines, sober warnings, trampling underfoot such fellowship, thus setting up the conditions for, and the causes of, turmoil and division.
-

Robert · 12-07-2021, 01:36 AM

" Wherein lies the failure of missions today? They keep the results of their work in their own hands. In other words, they have reckoned their converts as members of their mission, or of their mission church, instead of building them into, or handing them over, to the local churches. The result is that the mission extends all the while and becomes quite an imposing organization, but local churches are scarcely to be found. And because there are no local churches, the mission has to send workers to different places as “pastors” of the various companies of Christians. So church is not church, and work is not work, but both are a medley of the two. There seems to be no scriptural warrant for forming companies of workers into missions; nevertheless, to regard a mission as an apostolic company is not definitely unscriptural, but for missions to enlarge their own organization instead of establishing local churches is distinctly so."
W.Nee , Normal christian church life

Let me think, why so many members are leaving this organization...
For churches lost their independence and became agencies of one corporation?
Is it not what John Ingalls had a burden for all the time?

Robert · 12-07-2021, 01:49 AM

Churches are founded on the ground of locality, not on the ground of receiving a certain apostle. W. Nee Normal Christian church life

Oh, really? Just try to reject apostle and minister of this age WL and his writings! No chance!
Unique and every church is only keeping oneness in "healthy" teaching and one accord.

Without WL there is no oneness! Upsss! Did I wrote this?
In Bible we just have to keep oneness in Holy Spirit.

Indiana · 12-09-2021, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indiana

www.lordsrecovery.us/ministrychurches.pdf

Nee’s statement:
"What havoc has been wrought in the Church because so many of her ministers have sought to bring the churches under their ministry, rather than by their ministry serve the churches. As soon as the churches are brought under any ministry, they cease to be local and become sectarian....

“And, the ‘churches’ established will be ‘ministerial churches’ not local ones.”
(pp138-139, Nee)

The ministry materials given in all the above references [by Nee and Lee in this writing] were to be safeguards for the churches to keep them in the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace. But the leadership since January 1974, following the untreated Daystar disaster, has not paid any attention to safeguards, guidelines, or sober warnings, thus trampling underfoot such fellowship, and setting up the conditions for, and the causes of, turmoil and division.

The “local churches” have distinguished themselves from the rest of the Body of Christ and have brought the churches under the ministry of a special leader to form their church life. And, “Wherever ministry is made the occasion for the forming of a church, there you have the beginning of a new denomination.” (The Normal Christian Church Life, p138-139, Nee)

Ohio · 12-09-2021, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Churches are founded on the ground of locality, not on the ground of receiving a certain apostle. W. Nee Normal Christian church life

Oh, really? Just try to reject apostle and minister of this age WL and his writings! No chance!
Unique and every church is only keeping oneness in "healthy" teaching and one accord.

Without WL there is no oneness! Upsss! Did I wrote this?
In Bible we just have to keep oneness in Holy Spirit.

The evidence from the last 45 years that I was associated with the Recovery is frankly overwhelming in support of your statements here. There is NO oneness of the Spirit in the Recovery anymore. It is simply the oneness of WL. Their ground of oneness is the leadership at LSM.

Even when Philip Lee, by all accounts an unsaved power-hungry degenerate, was placed in charge of LSM, all workers and LC’s were forced into subservience and a fleshly allegiance under his abusive leadership. That explained why so many godly, spiritual, and fruitful brothers departed at the time.

Indiana · 12-10-2021, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

The evidence from the last 45 years that I was associated with the Recovery is frankly overwhelming in support of your statements here. There is NO oneness of the Spirit in the Recovery anymore. It is simply the oneness of WL. Their ground of oneness is the leadership at LSM.

Even when Philip Lee, by all accounts an unsaved power-hungry degenerate, was placed in charge of LSM, all workers and LC’s were forced into subservience and a fleshly allegiance under his abusive leadership. That explained why so many godly, spiritual, and fruitful brothers departed at the time.

I love the truth-speaking, brothers. Amen!

Indiana · 12-22-2021, 12:01 PM

ShepherdingWords.com says "We should gladly accept the ground of locality as a limitation and restriction because it keeps us in the oneness of the Body of Christ. It requires us to reject our natural thoughts, opinions, preferences, and offenses to preserve this oneness. Thus, this limitation aids our knowing of the cross and, through the cross, the resurrection life of Christ."

SW brothers please read DCP's reference to the ground of the church.

www.truewordsfortruthseekers.com

Deputy Authority and the Ground of Oneness

Cal · 12-22-2021, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indiana

ShepherdingWords.com says "We should gladly accept the ground of locality as a limitation and restriction because it keeps us in the oneness of the Body of Christ."

"We should gladly accept the ground of locality as a limitation and restriction because it keeps us in the oneness of Witness Lee and the Co-workers in the Lord's Recovery in North America."

Zezima · 12-22-2021, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indiana

ShepherdingWords.com says "We should gladly accept the ground of locality as a limitation and restriction because it keeps us in the oneness of the Body of Christ. It requires us to reject our natural thoughts, opinions, preferences, and offenses to preserve this oneness. Thus, this limitation aids our knowing of the cross and, through the cross, the resurrection life of Christ."

SW brothers please read DCP's reference to the ground of the church.

www.truewordsfortruthseekers.com

Deputy Authority and the Ground of Oneness

Link to this quote? Not finding it

UntoHim · 12-22-2021, 08:09 PM

Assailing the Ground of Oneness (6): The Ground of the Church Being for the Building Up of the Body of Christ
Published on October 28, 2021

5th paragraph from top.
-

Zezima · 12-22-2021, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Assailing the Ground of Oneness (6): The Ground of the Church Being for the Building Up of the Body of Christ
Published on October 28, 2021

5th paragraph from top.
-

I can’t believe I used to eat this up. Reading it now after leaving, it reads so abusive and controlling.

Indiana · 12-24-2021, 06:29 AM

1963 PUBLIC STATEMENT AND FELLOWSHIP regarding the original stand and local church ground of oneness.
.
http://lordsrecovery.us/TheOnenessWebsiteLAHistory2.pdf

In Nov 2018 I wrote,

"In the last twelve months, ministers to the churches in 'the Lord’s recovery' spoke in error again about former leaders in at least three conferences, two being in the NE, one being in Irvine with Minoru Chen. A special burden was for Southern California churches, where Brother Lee had released most of his ministry and expected a revival in its final phase, but he didn't see it. The blending brothers were then expecting a revival also, but they haven't seen it.

"In those conferences, reference was made to two rebellions that had darkened the atmosphere in the churches and that those clouds from the past were still hanging over them.

"It's not hard to see how turmoil and division took place, but it is hard for some to admit the truth and publish it, even when the facts are set before them."

"In the initial public statement released by the elders in Los Angeles to the Christian public, they shared what their stand was and 'realized the need of a proper expression of the Body of Christ in their city'. Brothers in the lead have completely ignored the true story of turmoil and division and their deviation from their original stand for the Lord’s testimony which they had under a once blue sky." from 2018

Don Rutledge helps us to know the history of those early churches, which he wrote about, and posted on this forum in 2009. He also helps us in knowing the Daystar factor that brought in the initial clouds; and he shares about the obvious changes of nature that occurred in "the recovery churches" that brought in more clouds," and further darkened the atmosphere. These clouds I refer to were not brought in by former leaders but by the same one who brought in "the once blue sky."

www.lordsrecovery.us/HistoryofHiding.pdf
l

Robert · 12-24-2021, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Assailing the Ground of Oneness (6): The Ground of the Church Being for the Building Up of the Body of Christ
Published on October 28, 2021

5th paragraph from top.
-

On one hand he was right if it comes to opinions and preferences. The same with dying on cross.
But...
I am not sure, if he dealt in other chapters with excused division like sin or heresies in that Local Church.
What if 80 saint follow man and heresies, but 20 don't want to?
What if leader remains in sin and don't want repent but 80 believers are still after him?
Can't twenty meet together but in another place for clean conscience sake?
One brother said this to another from different locality, during fellowship:" What You will do, if Timothy sent by Paul, will come?"
It was very good point. Sometimes, situation in church is so corrupted, that even Timothy can be kicked out with Paul's message.
I have to dig out my books from my shed and check it out if he wrote about such a situations.

Taking just this excerpt or continuing such a narrative, saints could have a false feeling of being trapped in this last and best and unique place on planet Earth.

Robert · 12-24-2021, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indiana

This was the original ground of oneness.

http://lordsrecovery.us/TheOnenessWebsiteLAHistory2.pdf

Sounds pretty good. But...

1.The very source was WL himself. Idea of coming back to that ground ( as we discuss here there are gaps in this idea).
2. He, as main teacher of this idea, remained "main" till his death.
3. "For an enlarged realization of our vision of the oneness of Christ’s Body..."
Whose vision exactly? And how it should be provided?
4.."We are not centered around certain truths, but make Christ, the all-inclusive
Head, Himself to be life and everything to us."
May be at 19 of May 1963 not...
5.." We are willing and ready to take
in all the good, sound, scriptural, and spiritual things which the Lord has given
through all generations and is still giving today to His Body through whatever
channel of different types of His saints; but we would not practice them in the
improper way taken by certain groups, nor would we identify ourselves with
any denomination, sect, or any sort of Christian movement."
My reading is: " I, WL , have read maaany books of many brothers and I stand on it. Everything is still given today by me, WL.
We will create our own practices, just because any other from denominations are divisive. Other words: our movement ( by definition- move, decision, change) has All Rights Reserved.
6." We are not exclusive."
Oh, yes! they became very fast. Starting by previous words !
7." [COLOR="sienna"][I]We receive all of God’s children as fellow-members of Christ’s Body"
Well, as long they come and drop all their preferences and practices.
8. Last and best:
"[COLOR="sienna"][I] May the Lord’s way be prosperous among His people in His increase
that His testimony through the local expressions of His Church may be established and strengthened throughout
the whole world in these last days to the full extent of His recovery in the building up of His Body to the measure
of the stature of His fullness by more and more brothers and sisters being brought into the stream of His life in the
fellowship of the Spirit while He is moving on toward His coming back by having a remnant as a response to His
call."
What I can see for all these years is, that they were always closed group of people and beside saints inside, nobody else could give and testimony about them.
It is like my wife trying new clothes in fitting room not calling me to say what I think but asking herself in mirror!

John 17:22-23
22And the glory which thou gauest me, I haue giuen them: that they may be one, euen as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in mee, that they may bee made perfect in one, and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loued them, as thou hast loued me.
regardless of their Christian background;

Trapped · 03-18-2022, 11:42 AM

Well, there are some more articles up. Truly, not worth the time to read them. It's all just blathering white noise.

It's almost like they trawled through the comments and videos former members have made and threw in some of the truth statements found in them in order to try to make themselves look better. But it's all just hypocrisy in light of how they really handle things.

Trapped · 04-03-2022, 09:57 AM

Someone has been busy because there are MORE articles up now. I don't have the stomach for them at all. This last batch is like they are getting up on stage and revealing what's been underneath all along.

Zezima · 04-03-2022, 01:56 PM

“Whenever someone promotes a different teaching, a teaching other than the apostles’ teaching for the building up of the Body of Christ in local churches in one common harmonious fellowship, the result is the same—questionings, contentions, and ultimately division. The same is true when someone uses selected portions of the Bible or of the ministry to advance their own private views.”

Closing statement from “Receiving All Believers but Not Different Teachings” article.

UntoHim · 04-03-2022, 02:43 PM

Quote from one of the new articles on ShepherdingWords.Com
Serious Errors Concerning the Fellowship of the Co-workers

Recently, a former co-worker accused the North American co-workers of drifting toward organization and hierarchy by allegedly giving serious consideration to centralizing ownership of the local churches’ meeting halls. This is a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened in a North American co-workers’ fellowship.

Which "former co-worker" is this referring to? Does anybody know?

"Conclusion" at the end of this article:

Normally, the contents of a co-workers’ fellowship should not be disclosed. Those who do so often give biased representations and draw others who lack direct knowledge into their dissenting opinions and into overstepping their measure. We correct this false account here in the hope that some who may have been stumbled by this former co-workers’ railings may be rescued from participating in his dissent. His conduct in this matter is strong proof of the rightness of removing him from participation in the work and in the lead in the church where he was.

"removing him". Again, no names given. Who is this referring to?
-

Trapped · 04-03-2022, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Which "former co-worker" is this referring to? Does anybody know?
-

Just an assumption here but it seems a decent guess - maybe Colley Joseph?

UntoHim · 04-03-2022, 04:27 PM

That's who I was thinking at first....but as I recall, after writing a nasty open letter regarding Colley's handling of messy separation/divorce/abuse situation, the Blended brothers retracted the open letter and then things went silent. (Some of the details were covered on this forum) My understanding was that Colley was never officially "quarantined", or if he was the action was rescinded.

Does anyone have any further information regarding Colley Joseph?
-

UntoHim · 04-03-2022, 05:47 PM

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...=colley+joseph

Here is the related thread "What's going on in OKC?"
-

Ohio · 04-04-2022, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

“Whenever someone promotes a different teaching, a teaching other than the apostles’ teaching for the building up of the Body of Christ in local churches in one common harmonious fellowship, the result is the same—questionings, contentions, and ultimately division. The same is true when someone uses selected portions of the Bible or of the ministry to advance their own private views.”

Closing statement from “Receiving All Believers but Not Different Teachings” article.

The "Apostles' Teaching" has been recorded in the New Testament, not LSM's countless contradictory "classics" hardbound in blue and green.

Zezima · 04-04-2022, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

The "Apostles' Teaching" has been recorded in the New Testament, not LSM's countless contradictory "classics" hardbound in blue and green.

What’s the apostles teaching vs. LSM’s view of it?

Ohio · 04-04-2022, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

What’s the apostles teaching vs. LSM’s view of it?

~15 years ago the Midwest LC's were divided and excommunicated because we differed from the teachings of WL (according to the Blinded Brothers,) not because we differed from the Apostles' teaching in the New Testament.

Because the LSM/LC's follow the teachings of WL, rather than those of the Bible, we have this unending nightmare scenario surrounding OKC, initially based on the heretical WL practice of "covering sinful brothers."

IF the church in OKC had wise and healthy elders, following Biblical teachings and principles, this tragic family situation would have been settled long ago. It should never have involved some ministry in SoCal, neither would it have brought so much shame to the Lord's name.

Zezima · 04-04-2022, 12:08 PM

Is it common for a Christian group or church to have a website dedicated to defending itself? Apologetics are defending the faith, but Shepherdingwords is defending the Lord’s Recovery movement. Seems like a red flag.

Trapped · 04-04-2022, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

What’s the apostles teaching vs. LSM’s view of it?

There are probably many answers to this, depending on what teaching you focus on, but I think the most obvious one is simply the gospel. What the apostles taught as the gospel is what Lee/LSM/LC calls "the low gospel".

UntoHim · 04-04-2022, 12:54 PM

For about 2 thousand years now, orthodox Christians have held that "the apostles teachings" were the teachings of the original, Scripture writing apostles. We have them forever memorialized for us in the pages of the New Testament canon.

Ever since the dusk of the age of the original, Scripture writing apostles, there have been those who would stake a claim to be some sort of continuation of the original apostles. Many, if not most of these men fall under the category of false apostles, of which the apostle Paul, at the end of his life and ministry, warned us against: I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; (Acts 20:29) The Greek here, translated as "fierce" in ESV, is alternatively translated as "savage" (NIV) "vicious" (NLT) and "grievous" (ASV). Obviously, Paul was not talking about people with a slightly different interpretation. What he is talking about are men who will "not spare the flock", "speaking twisted things" and "drawing men after themselves".

For many decades, Witness Lee spoke twisted things, and he did so with the intention of drawing men after himself. And now, his self proclaimed "continuation", the Blended Brothers, are making the claim that Witness Lee's personal ministry is equal to, and even equivalent to the original New Testament Ministry of the Scripture writing apostles. As absurd and preposterous as this claim is, there are tens of thousands of people who are still held captive in this system of error we know as The Local Church of Witness Lee. By God's mercy and grace he has raised up and sustained many saints to come and post their testimonies and experiences here on LCD. I am so proud and encouraged by so many of our forum members who have come here to speak the truth in love.
-

Paul Vusik · 04-05-2022, 09:25 AM

Untohim,

You can safely add the previous “apostle Nee” to the LC, because one would not exist without the teachings and observations of what happened in China, Taiwan etc. The foundations were laid and done prior to LC coming to USA.

Trapped · 04-08-2022, 01:29 PM

article on "Stealing Meetings [sic] Halls" is up that I hadn't seen before.....concerning Mansfield, Columbus, and Toronto.

UntoHim · 04-08-2022, 03:40 PM

Interesting. I don't think this article was put up with the rest of those articles dated March 31st.

In any event, John Myer and Nigel Tomes have been made aware of this article, and we maybe we can look forward to hearing their "side of the story". For some reason I don't think we are getting a complete or accurate version of what took place in Columbus or in Toronto

-

Trapped · 04-08-2022, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Interesting. I don't think this article was put up with the rest of those articles dated March 31st.

In any event, John Myer and Nigel Tomes have been made aware of this article, and we maybe we can look forward to hearing their "side of the story". For some reason I don't think we are getting a complete or accurate version of what took place in Columbus or in Toronto

-

I didn't see it then either.

What is striking to me (DCP - take note) is that in the....what.....75 articles now that they have written, EVERY SINGLE ONE is all about how they have never done a single thing wrong and everyone else is constantly out to get them and constantly maligning them and everyone else is a liar.

There is not a shred of humility or acknowledgement that they mishandled something or made serious errors that affected people. Most definitely not the humble attitude we see of Godly believers in the Bible.

Trapped

Zezima · 04-08-2022, 07:57 PM

Quote:

They abandoned the way of life and truth and, with the excuse that young people needed such attractions, introduced worldly elements into the meetings, including rock bands and other forms of entertainment. They implemented oppressive measures to assert their authority and to disparage and intimidate those who did not agree with them, including setting up a camera in one of the church’s meeting halls to monitor what the saints were speaking.

They being the church in Toronto. While i don’t know the context of that drama. The same site Shepherdingwords.com has an article about how the “Defense and Confirmation Project” keeps files on “subjects of interest”. LSM does the exact same thing that they are negatively portraying in the quote about. Of course, it’s okay if they do it, but if someone else does it.. it’s terrible!

Side note, “rock bands” meaning modern worship music.. did God not create the physics of sound?

GraceAlone · 04-08-2022, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

I didn't see it then either.

What is striking to me (DCP - take note) is that in the....what.....75 articles now that they have written, EVERY SINGLE ONE is all about how they have never done a single thing wrong and everyone else is constantly out to get them and constantly maligning them and everyone else is a liar.

There is not a shred of humility or acknowledgement that they mishandled something or made serious errors that affected people. Most definitely not the humble attitude we see of Godly believers in the Bible.

Trapped

Trapped — this is exactly why shepherdingwords had the opposite effect on me than intended when I was still meeting with the LR (but questioning). You nailed it. I was so struck by the arrogance and unwillingness to admit even the possibility of having done harm over the years, even unintentionally. Now I’m praying that the Lord uses this latest material for His own redemptive purposes, to open more eyes and cause searchings of heart and of Scripture.

Zezima · 04-08-2022, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

Trapped — this is exactly why shepherdingwords had the opposite effect on me than intended when I was still meeting with the LR (but questioning). You nailed it. I was so struck by the arrogance and unwillingness to admit even the possibility of having done harm over the years, even unintentionally. Now I’m praying that the Lord uses this latest material for His own redemptive purposes, to open more eyes and cause searchings of heart and of Scripture.

GraceAlone, it sounds like you are experiencing darts from satan causing you to question the purity of the Lords Recovery. Witness Lee is the minister of the age, and the Lord’s Recovery is God’s only move on the earth. While nowhere in the Bible is there mention of a recovery, witness Lee had a vision, unlocking a hidden truth.. hidden to man until witness Lee. Without him, we would be blinded, and only have the Bible to guide us.

Ohio · 04-09-2022, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Interesting. I don't think this article was put up with the rest of those articles dated March 31st.

In any event, John Myer and Nigel Tomes have been made aware of this article, and we maybe we can look forward to hearing their "side of the story". For some reason I don't think we are getting a complete or accurate version of what took place in Columbus or in Toronto

-

And perhaps Norm could give his “side of the story” in Mansfield?

Ohio · 04-09-2022, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

I didn't see it then either.

What is striking to me (DCP - take note) is that in the....what.....75 articles now that they have written, EVERY SINGLE ONE is all about how they have never done a single thing wrong and everyone else is constantly out to get them and constantly maligning them and everyone else is a liar.

There is not a shred of humility or acknowledgement that they mishandled something or made serious errors that affected people. Most definitely not the humble attitude we see of Godly believers in the Bible.

Trapped

BY DEFINITION, Recovery leaders are incapable of being wrong.

God Himself could not permit such an event from happening!

Ohio · 04-09-2022, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

They being the church in Toronto. While i don’t know the context of that drama. The same site Shepherdingwords.com has an article about how the “Defense and Confirmation Project” keeps files on “subjects of interest”. LSM does the exact same thing that they are negatively portraying in the quote about. Of course, it’s okay if they do it, but if someone else does it.. it’s terrible!

Side note, “rock bands” meaning modern worship music.. did God not create the physics of sound?

Zezima, that’s exactly what Paul said in Romans 2.1

Ever read about all the musical instruments King David used?

When we were excommunicated for using electric guitars and drums, we learned from church history that using pianos was also once considered “worldly entertainment” by legalistic church leaders of old. John Darby, the often revered first Brethren “MOTA,” regularly condemned the use of the piano as a “wooden brother.”

Ohio · 04-09-2022, 02:37 AM

From the opening paragraph of the “Stealing Meeting Halls” article …

Quote:

Some dear saints have been influenced by malicious claims that Living Stream Ministry (LSM), the Defense and Confirmation Project (DCP), or the co-workers “stole” meeting halls by suing churches. Neither LSM, nor DCP, nor the co-workers have initiated any legal action against any local church, much less laid claim to any asset of any local church. Furthermore, no meeting halls were “stolen” either by LSM, the co-workers, or DCP. In stark contrast to these accusations, LSM has contributed funds to many local churches for them to acquire properties.

Pure political spin. Operatives from LSM DCP would come to all the Midwest localities and hold secret training sessions, providing a host of behind the scenes supports, so that they could not be “officially” implicated.

Kind of like the Godfather telling us, “I never killed nobody.”

Nell · 04-09-2022, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

I didn't see it then either.

What is striking to me (DCP - take note) is that in the....what.....75 articles now that they have written, EVERY SINGLE ONE is all about how they have never done a single thing wrong and everyone else is constantly out to get them and constantly maligning them and everyone else is a liar.

There is not a shred of humility or acknowledgement that they mishandled something or made serious errors that affected people. Most definitely not the humble attitude we see of Godly believers in the Bible.

Trapped

That website reminds me of “Methinks thou dost protest too much.”

Nell

Zezima · 12-20-2022, 09:22 PM

There’s a whole new batch..

12-20-2022, 09:57 PM

This is from the article, Questions and Answers about Apostles and Co-workers

Quote:

Because workers among the churches have from time to time cultivated personal followings among the saints, Brother Lee gave a strong word concerning how to “be right in following others” (A Word of Love…, 49-66). He described the characteristics of a person whom it is safe to follow:

He should be a person loving the Lord, living for the Lord, and renouncing his self, natural life, preference, and ambition.
He must hold the complete revelation of the entire holy Scriptures properly without any twisting or deforming.
He must be one who endeavors to keep the oneness of the Spirit, the oneness of the universal Body, by taking the unique ground of the local church. (A Word of Love…, 49)

How about what the Bible states about this issue:

“To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock” (1 Peter 5:1-3).

“Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap” (1 Timothy 3:1-6).

“An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it” (Titus 1:6-9).

Well, that’s all folks. That disqualifies all current apostles and elders of the Local Church. They obviously only go by what Witness has recommended, but hey, it’s the latest, extremely new and the most updated standards to follow. Please wake me up when the next batch of those qualifications will be put out, so that we all can see if they have went even further away from the truth.

Trapped · 12-21-2022, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onlooker

Well, that’s all folks. That disqualifies all current apostles and elders of the Local Church. They obviously only go by what Witness has recommended, but hey, it’s the latest, extremely new and the most updated standards to follow. Please wake me up when the next batch of those qualifications will be put out, so that we all can see if they have went even further away from the truth.

The most ironic part of this is that the co-workers always say "we don't follow a man, we follow a vision", blah blah blah. Except they then turn around and say "this is the type of man you should follow".

Zezima · 12-21-2022, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

The most ironic part of this is that the co-workers always say "we don't follow a man, we follow a vision", blah blah blah. Except they then turn around and say "this is the type of man you should follow".

Here is an exact citation, they actually use this in part 3 of their 3 part series on leadership.

Quote:

You are not following a man; rather, you are standing with the Lord’s ministry. You are following a vision, a vision that matches the age, a vision that inherits all that was in the past and a vision that is all-inclusive. It is up to date, yet it builds on the past. If you remain in the book of Acts, you may have inherited everything prior to that time, but you are not up to date. Today as we stand here and ponder the revelations unveiled in the Lord’s recovery, as we read the publications that are released among us, we can see that they cover everything from the church to God’s economy to the New Jerusalem in the new heaven and new earth. This is a bountiful and all-sufficient vision.

(Crucial Words of Leading in the Lord’s Recovery, Book 1: The Vision and Definite Steps for the Practice of the New Way, 49)

Translation: You’re not following a man, you’re following a vision given to a man that is the most up to date speaking of God himself. As we only read the publications that I authored, you can see they cover everything. In fact, they are all sufficient, meaning that you don’t need anything else.

He’s equating his publications to God’s speaking. Living Stream Ministry is openly saying that their published works are God’s ministry. This is 100% a cult. Every Cult leader makes a claim that they have received some revelation from God that is complete and final.

The thing that’s heartbreaking is people believe this. They genuinely believe Witness Lee’s vision is from God himself.

12-21-2022, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

The most ironic part of this is that the co-workers always say "we don't follow a man, we follow a vision", blah blah blah. Except they then turn around and say "this is the type of man you should follow".

I think we should not give them the benefit of the doubt, since I don’t believe that any of those man including Witness Lee and Watchman Nee, took a visit to a Real eye Doctor to see if what they see is actually real for a very long time, if ever. Following a vision of men that are blind, or even worse trying to find a way through a maze without any kind of ability to see the dead end that’s about to hit you in the face, because these people blind folded you and ask you to trust them, is a recipe for disaster.

Claiming to be apostles or authority only speaks to the fact that they are not and have none, because real authority doesn’t ever have to say they are. People will know when someone speaks with authority, without ever mentioning that they represent it. But those who have to constantly remind everyone with articles like those on their websites, are nothing but a shepherd wannabes, delusional men looking for naive and foolish people. They sure try very hard to convince you to listen, pulling verses out of context to make elaborate statements, using Bible as a personal buffet to choose what fits the latest narrative. I recommend going to see a Real Doctor, a true Physician, and maybe those awful, 80 year old visions will see their end. I highly doubt that after so many decades of following a blind man, none of those “apostles” are even opening their eyes to check where they are going any longer. Remember, testing and examination is not something you will find in the local churches, but you sure will find a lot of people eating contaminated mush, and then wondering why they have many issues.

Ohio · 12-22-2022, 06:23 AM

Perhaps one of LSM’s greatest manipulations regards this supposed “vision” that we were all supposed to “see.”

Go read about the actual vision Paul saw about preaching Good News to the Gentiles.

Zezima · 03-05-2023, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Male and Female in God’s Creation

The Bible is consistent. It recognizes no distinction between the sex and gender of a person. God created humanity with only two genders—male and female. The very first mention of man says unequivocally, “And God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them” (Gen. 1:27). Genesis 5:2a confirms this, saying, “Male and female He created them.” In the New Testament, the Lord Jesus affirmed this fact, saying, “And He answered and said, Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female” (Matt. 19:4; cf. Mark 10:6). Thus, the testimony of Scripture in both the Old and New Testaments is that God created man with only two genders—male and female. There is no third gender, no hybrid genders, no gender spectrum, and no changing of one’s birth gender. Everything else, including any form of gender confusion, is a product of the fall of man, even in the small number of cases of biological ambiguity (cf. Matt. 19:12).

Source: https://shepherdingwords.com/concern...l-orientation/

Not trying to get into a discussion here about your opinion on sex and gender identification. However, gender is a social construct, and this portion of Shepherdingwords conflates it with Sex which is biological. The verses used to justify this stance, are referencing to Sex not gender. Surely someone at LSM understands the difference?

Trapped · 03-07-2023, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Source: https://shepherdingwords.com/concern...l-orientation/

Not trying to get into a discussion here about your opinion on sex and gender identification. However, gender is a social construct, and this portion of Shepherdingwords conflates it with Sex which is biological. The verses used to justify this stance, are referencing to Sex not gender. Surely someone at LSM understands the difference?

Not wanting to start an argument either, but I do think the thought that "gender is a social construct" is itself just a recent social construct.

However, I agree with you that the article fell short. The arguments these days ARE that gender and sex are distinct, and to simply say "the Bible recognizes no distinction between the sex and gender of a person"....I mean.....that's true, but the Bible isn't a book on that topic either. And while what the Bible says is important, there are mountains more components to the issue that they missed.

For example, gender identity and sexual orientation are two different topics/issues with two very different implications, and combining them in a mixed article about both misses opportunity for a lot more nuance.

Also, it is strange that they would actually bother to tell the LC saints not to get involved in anything that promotes "biblical mores". I guess to them, salt and light SHOULDN'T have an impact in society?

And while they briefly touch upon God's compassion, the whole tone of the article seems to be missing compassion. It IS possible to be steadfast while not losing sight of people's humanity.

They are totally correct, however, in their statement that we should not discriminate to whom we present the gospel. That sentence gets an A+ from me.

Trapped

Nell · 03-07-2023, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

…
However, I agree with you that the article fell short. The arguments these days ARE that gender and sex are distinct, and to simply say "the Bible recognizes no distinction between the sex and gender of a person"....I mean.....that's true, but the Bible isn't a book on that topic either. And while what the Bible says is important, there are mountains more components to the issue that they missed.
…
They are totally correct, however, in their statement that we should not discriminate to whom we present the gospel. That sentence gets an A+ from me. (Me too…Nell)

Trapped

I may be wrong, but I’m thinking that those who penned the Bible never, in their wildest dreams, imagined the day would come that gender and sex would be a topic for discussion. That such things ARE being discussed, openly, likely says more about the condition of the hearts of mankind than the scriptures, which cover the following bases.

Here’s what Paul gave us:
Ephesians 5 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Zezima · 03-07-2023, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

Not wanting to start an argument either, but I do think the thought that "gender is a social construct" is itself just a recent social construct.

However, I agree with you that the article fell short. The arguments these days ARE that gender and sex are distinct, and to simply say "the Bible recognizes no distinction between the sex and gender of a person"....I mean.....that's true, but the Bible isn't a book on that topic either. And while what the Bible says is important, there are mountains more components to the issue that they missed.

For example, gender identity and sexual orientation are two different topics/issues with two very different implications, and combining them in a mixed article about both misses opportunity for a lot more nuance.

Correct, the distinction in meaning is a newish development (last 100 years), but the idea of isn’t new regardless of the recent formalizations of the words.

To say the Bible doesn’t recognize the distinction sets up a pretty egregious framework for interpretation. The verses used are taken out of context as well. For example, the verse from Matthew. Jesus is answering a question about divorce, not gender identity. However, LSM uses Jesus’s answer on divorce and applies it to a different topic.

Here’s the verse:
“And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,”
**Matthew‬ *19‬:*3‬-*4‬ *ESV‬‬

Just another example of LSM/The Recovery taking a verse out of the context it lives in, and applying to a context that it does not.

Regardless of one’s opinion, it’s a shame that this is really the only content someone in the Recovery has to reference if they are involved in one form or another with the issue.

Trapped · 03-07-2023, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Correct, the distinction in meaning is a newish development (last 100 years), but the idea of isn’t new regardless of the recent formalizations of the words.

To say the Bible doesn’t recognize the distinction sets up a pretty egregious framework for interpretation. The verses used are taken out of context as well. For example, the verse from Matthew. Jesus is answering a question about divorce, not gender identity. However, LSM uses Jesus’s answer on divorce and applies it to a different topic.

Here’s the verse:
“And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,”
**Matthew‬ *19‬:*3‬-*4‬ *ESV‬‬

Just another example of LSM/The Recovery taking a verse out of the context it lives in, and applying to a context that it does not.

Regardless of one’s opinion, it’s a shame that this is really the only content someone in the Recovery has to reference if they are involved in one form or another with the issue.

You're right, the idea isn't new, and the struggles people have aren't new. And yes, the local church falls shamefully short in this once again. Given they expect everyone to turn to them for all the answers, they need to put a lot more effort into their answers than this.

Zezima · 03-07-2023, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I may be wrong, but I’m thinking that those who penned the Bible never, in their wildest dreams, imagined the day would come that gender and sex would be a topic for discussion

I don’t want to say you’re wrong, but sexual identity in Roman-Greco culture was extremely different than how our culture views it today. We would view it as extremely promiscuous, but that’s through our cultural lenses. They didn’t view it that way. Pederasty was accepted, orgies were very common, you weren’t identified based on the biological sex you interacted with like today. Pretty interesting thing to look into, it really paints a picture of how radical some of the writings of Paul were.

Trapped · 03-07-2023, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I may be wrong, but I’m thinking that those who penned the Bible never, in their wildest dreams, imagined the day would come that gender and sex would be a topic for discussion. That such things ARE being discussed, openly, likely says more about the condition of the hearts of mankind than the scriptures, which cover the following bases.

Here’s what Paul gave us:
Ephesians 5 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Without knowing much about the culture in that regard, I can surmise that maybe they would never imagine the contention over the supposed distinction between gender and sex, although maybe in Rome there were people who felt they were in the wrong body, etc too. But the topics themselves have been discussed for all time. Sexual topics are found throughout scripture, because they are common tripping points for mankind.

Problems, struggles, etc, related to it do need to be discussed, that's not at odds with "not be once named among you". It doesn't mean that they can never be discussed, it's more of "let the behavior not be found among you".

TLFisher · 03-07-2023, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

From the opening paragraph of the “Stealing Meeting Halls” article …

Pure political spin. Operatives from LSM DCP would come to all the Midwest localities and hold secret training sessions, providing a host of behind the scenes supports, so that they could not be “officially” implicated.

Kind of like the Godfather telling us, “I never killed nobody.”

I could be wrong, but many of these behind the scenes support occurred in localities where there were meeting halls (Toronto, Mansfield, etc)?
Why would a lawyer from DCP be offering his advice during this time?

Ohio · 03-08-2023, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I may be wrong, but I’m thinking that those who penned the Bible never, in their wildest dreams, imagined the day would come that gender and sex would be a topic for discussion. That such things ARE being discussed, openly, likely says more about the condition of the hearts of mankind than the scriptures, which cover the following bases.

For a male to imagine himself a female, and vice versa, is evidentiary proof that God has given them over to delusion for not loving the truth. (2 Thess 2.9-12)

Robert · 03-08-2023, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

For a male to imagine himself a female, and vice versa, is evidentiary proof that God has given them over to delusion for not loving the truth. (2 Thess 2.9-12)

Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19
because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
1:20
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
1:21
because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23
and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
1:24
Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves:
1:25
for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
1:26
For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27
and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
1:28
And even as they refused to have God in [their] knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
1:29
being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30
backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31
without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful:
1:32
who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.

Zezima · 03-08-2023, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

For a male to imagine himself a female, and vice versa, is evidentiary proof that God has given them over to delusion for not loving the truth. (2 Thess 2.9-12)

I tried to explain this to my transgender friends but oddly enough instead of bringing them to Jesus, it pushed them further away from Jesus.

Ohio · 03-08-2023, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

I tried to explain this to my transgender friends but oddly enough instead of bringing them to Jesus, it pushed them further away from Jesus.

Jesus Himself said that He would become the Stone of Stumbling. (Matt 21.44; Isaiah 28.16: Romans 9.33; I Peter 2.6-8)

I would never use scripture to beat others, yet we must be faithful to the Lord and His word. I would encourage you to persistently pray for your friends, also telling them about the incredible love and forgiveness of the Savior.

UntoHim · 03-09-2023, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

I tried to explain this to my transgender friends but oddly enough instead of bringing them to Jesus, it pushed them further away from Jesus.

This is what happens when you try to feed someone meat when they are only able to accept milk. You're trying to stuff a 24 ounce porterhouse down a baby's mouth, when what they need is a few ounces of warm milk from a bottle.

We need to take the example of the Lord Jesus. He was very hard on the religious people who had their stuff together, but he was very gentle on "the sinners". He didn't get in the woman at the well's face and scream scripture at her - he offered her free living water. The woman's main problem was not that she was a sinner (although that was a problem) - the main problem was that she was dehydrated - she had zero living water.

People with "gender dysphoria" are not just confused, they are dehydrated. They have separated themselves from the natural order that God has put in place, and thus they have removed themselves from any place where they might receive the living water. They are trying to drink from a broken cistern - mankind has been broken since the fall - and there is no possibility to receive the living water as long as they are in the wrong place. They need to be shown that they are in need of the living water.
-

Nell · 03-09-2023, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

...

Problems, struggles, etc, related to it do need to be discussed, that's not at odds with "not be once named among you". It doesn't mean that they can never be discussed, it's more of "let the behavior not be found among you".

I didn’t say “never discuss”…anything.

“ That such things ARE being discussed, openly, likely says more about the condition of the hearts of mankind than the scriptures, …goes to where we are as a people, a nation, a world, vs. where we should be.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;”

Nell

Trapped · 03-09-2023, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I didn’t say “never discuss”…anything.

“ That such things ARE being discussed, openly, likely says more about the condition of the hearts of mankind than the scriptures, …goes to where we are as a people, a nation, a world, vs. where we should be.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;”

Nell

You mean the fact that it's even a topic for debate, I imagine, right?

Nell · 03-09-2023, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

You mean the fact that it's even a topic for debate, I imagine, right?

Yes. That too.

TLFisher · 03-11-2023, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

To Indiana.
You mentioned about "no more hiding".
Let me exercise my mind on this part of their article below and say what You think...

From shepherdingWords (https://shepherdingwords.com/hiding-history/)
Article - Hiding history?
"Daystar – A Failed Business
One largely misunderstood matter is the history of Daystar Motor Homes. The never-realized profits from the manufacture and sales of Daystar recreational vehicles

1.were intended to support full-time workers and the acquisition of church meeting halls as the local churches spread.
2. A small minority of members of various local churches either invested in or loaned funds to Daystar. The business failed. Regrettably, investors lost money.
3.Those who made loans to Daystar were repaid except when the loan was explicitly forgiven by the lender.
4.No local church was involved with the ownership or operation of Daystar."

1. "intented" -Intention is a matter of mind and heart. Those are placed in man. So the question is: by whom intended? WL? Did really all saints where informed that they can lose money and have debt on account?

Let say I ask my local brother for financial help. As loving brother I have responsibility to not cause problem in his family. We do not see in whole Bible such a example. So they missed rut of this problem. He never should ask saints for money. So, I do not believe that explanation.

2. " A small minority of members of various local churches"- Let's take a look closer word after word...Small number... they do not say that some used pension funds. They do not mention about amounts. One person could invest 50 thousands, 10 thousands, 5 000 dollars. Times "small minority" can give whatever. So there are magic words making impression " common guys! nothing happened! That was only pension fund! That was only 10000 Dolars! We are honest and not hiding history".

3.Those who made loans to Daystar were repaid except when the loan was explicitly forgiven by the lender. I don't think all saints were repaid.

I heard one tape with record of both sides. One brother who gave money and WL. First time I heard WL in private conversation. WL was rude and dishonest. Like simply man on street. I hope to find this record again. So, how do You think, what this brother and others could do in such a situation? Sue WL? It was masterpiece what he did at that time. If take of christian factor, this would be case for court.
Honest saints, who trusted him in love, factor of believe, Jesus, oneness... Uhhh! I suppose that mostly it was pain and suffer and saying " what can I do, let it be" > Forgiven? Even if so, there was a sin or fault to forgive! But no word about mistake and apologize.

4. For God's sake! Blind people!!!! Only members of local churches were involved but not local churches! So what is local church stupid people!!!!

Local church is people! 1 Cor 3.19 For the wisedom of this world is foolishnesse with God: for it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
So don't worry saints, no church was hurt! Ufff! Relief!

What they forget to say is special meetings were held regarding investing in Daystar.
Logically, would anyone invest thinking they would not get a return on their investment? Those who did invest in Daystar did not do so treating it as a church donation. Some invested in the hundreds and perhaps others it was ten's of thousands.

TLFisher · 05-01-2023, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The website should be called "CloakingWords.com", because everyone knows what they mean inside the LC. It's a cloak.

Anything except shepherdingwords.com. It's a LSM spin site.
Just as ACA was not affordable care act and just as the Patriot act was not the patriot act, it meant just the opposite. In truth the ACA was unaffordable care act. The Patriot Act was the anti-Patriot act. Shepherdingwords.com is hirlingwords.com.

TLFisher · 05-01-2023, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

What do shepherdingwords sound like?

Grace and Truth
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
...
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

The Good Shepherd was graceful and merciful even to His death.

If Shepherdingwords was shepherding words, it wouldn't read so much like a LSM spin-zone.
Rather if shepherdingwords.com was really about shepherding there would be words or grace and mercy to brothers such as Max and John. Expressing thankfulness and appreciation when they were meeting among the local churches.
Rebuking the us versus them mindset that is prevailing in the local churches. Rebuking rhetoric that is commonplace in prophesying meetings of many localities "we have everything and Christianity has nothing".
Remorse for permitting Phillip Lee to become a divisive figure in local church history.
So more to be said.....

Ohio · 05-01-2023, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Anything except shepherdingwords.com. It's a LSM spin site.
Just as ACA was not affordable care act and just as the Patriot act was not the patriot act, it meant just the opposite. In truth the ACA was unaffordable care act. The Patriot Act was the anti-Patriot act. Shepherdingwords.com is hirlingwords.com.

I’m thinking that you are not at all convinced by the “Inflation Reduction Act.”

TLFisher · 05-01-2023, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I’m thinking that you are not at all convinced by the “Inflation Reduction Act.”

I must be out of the loop. What is that? Aside from MLB, NFL draft (go Cowboys!), and the weather, I'm out of the loop with news.

TLFisher · 05-01-2023, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indiana

“In the 1980s Brother Lee addressed similar accusations by saying, “All problems can and should be solved through proper and adequate fellowship by praying together sincerely and thoroughly. Any question and any problem can be solved by fellowship” (The Intrinsic View of the Body of Christ, 98). I sent a letter to LSM encouraging fellowship among the brothers and with me over the points I made in my first writing. Instead of responding to me I was turned over to my elders who informed me of the disciplinary measures they were placing on me based on Anaheim’s recommendation.

https://lordsrecovery.us/HidingHistoryNoMore.pdf

Why is shepherdingwords.com spinning against hiding history? Why?
It is not some topic brother Steve Isitt just randomly wrote about. It is from countless miles driven and hours spent with former elders in the know.
Who among the blended co-workers actually spent time with a former elder other than persuading not to write about the history or escorting from a lovefeast since 1990?
They at LSM would rather have former elders remain silent and offer a no comment. While from the bi-annual training pulpit blendeds would give veiled or insinuated opinions regarding those former elders who left. They have and they do. It may be commonplace in LSM trainings, but in poor poor Christianity there is something quite the contrary to expect. One of grace. One of mercy. One of love towards those who used to meet with their respective congregations.

TLFisher · 06-03-2023, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

The website was originally set up to respond to many of the issues brought up by Jo Casteel's Facebook letter. The letter "spread like wildfire", according to the LC, and LSM had to have a place where they could address things in a way where no one who sees through them could respond. Anything they did on social media or other similar formats meant they had to monitor the pages so they could delete the "negative" responses of former members trying to hold them accountable.

shepherdingwords.com is really, like, ineffectualwords.com, or weakattemptsatcontinuingthelies.com......

If I remember correctly, when Jacob Howard uploaded a blog post or two to his site, not long after that, new articles appeared on shepherdingwords.com related to the same subject matter - the 1000 year punishment, etc.

So as far as I've concluded, DCP does its best to keep its pulse on the growing heartbeat of voices speaking out against them, and they use shepherdingwords.com to try to plug the leaks spouting from their crumbling dam.

Some of the things they have written are so egregious, I also hope they are undone by their own words, and pray that their putting things in such explicit writing (thoughts that are essentially like "reading the Bible without Witness Lee is unbiblical and dangerous") will backfire and actually turn more people away. God can use anything!

Trapped

At best shepherdingwords.com is taking a Acts 5 approach to the past:

Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.
Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

shepherdingwords.com is withholding facts while presenting their content as the whole. I dare to say they are bearing false witness against brothers who have given their eyewitness accounts.

TLFisher · 06-09-2023, 06:44 PM

Quote:

1970s – Max Rapoport
In February 1978 some brothers informed Brother Lee that one of the co-workers, Max Rapoport, was seeking to undermine his work and ministry and to incite a “revolution” among the younger saints in the local churches. By the Lord’s leading Brother Lee did nothing to directly oppose Rapoport’s efforts or to expose his misconduct. Instead, he began to travel and minister concerning the crucial need for every saint to have a personal time with the Lord every day in the Word and in prayer (Life Messages). He also released exceedingly rich ministry later published in books such as The Experience of Christ and Life-study of Ephesians. Rapoport had been cultivating a personal following among younger co-workers and elders, but the contrast between the riches of Brother Lee’s ministry and the fleshly zeal that Rapoport promoted caused most of them to have a change of heart, so Rapoport’s incipient rebellion collapsed. On August 13, 1978, one of the elders in Anaheim shared a message in a church meeting from First and Second Timothy and Titus concerning how important it is for a believer to take care of their conscience before God (1 Tim. 1:5, 19; 3:9; 4:2; 2 Tim. 1:3; Titus 1:15). Rapoport took personal offense, got up in the middle of the meeting and left. He never returned. No one took any action to force him out. In fact, Witness Lee did not speak publicly about this turmoil until a conference held September 29 to October 1, over six weeks after Rapoport left (Truth Messages, chapters 1 through 4), and then he spoke in principle only and named no one.

Like clockwork, there's more to the story than shepherdingwords.com provides.
Did you know in Anaheim during this era, if you were a child of parents receptive to Max, you probably had your churchkid friendships fractured?
I didn't experience this, but I knew of ones that did.
Did you know those in the local church when speaking of Max would refer to 3 John 9-11?
Did you know at Francis Ball's memorial in 2007, Max attended? Not surprising to learn of shunning he received from the c0-workers.
In the years since leaving "the Lord's Recovery" I've learned the LC is not "The Normal Christian Churchlife".

Nell · 06-10-2023, 05:05 AM

Quote:

1970s – Max Rapoport
In February 1978 some brothers informed Brother Lee that one of the co-workers, Max Rapoport, was seeking to undermine his work and ministry and to incite a “revolution” among the younger saints in the local churches. By the Lord’s leading Brother Lee did nothing to directly oppose Rapoport’s efforts or to expose his misconduct. Instead, he began to travel and minister concerning the crucial need for every saint to have a personal time with the Lord every day in the Word and in prayer (Life Messages). He also released exceedingly rich ministry later published in books such as The Experience of Christ and Life-study of Ephesians. Rapoport had been cultivating a personal following among younger co-workers and elders, but the contrast between the riches of Brother Lee’s ministry and the fleshly zeal that Rapoport promoted caused most of them to have a change of heart, so Rapoport’s incipient rebellion collapsed. On August 13, 1978, one of the elders in Anaheim shared a message in a church meeting from First and Second Timothy and Titus concerning how important it is for a believer to take care of their conscience before God (1 Tim. 1:5, 19; 3:9; 4:2; 2 Tim. 1:3; Titus 1:15). Rapoport took personal offense, got up in the middle of the meeting and left. He never returned. No one took any action to force him out. In fact, Witness Lee did not speak publicly about this turmoil until a conference held September 29 to October 1, over six weeks after Rapoport left (Truth Messages, chapters 1 through 4), and then he spoke in principle only and named no one.

TLFisher,
Can you please provide the source for this quote from your original post #138?
Thanks,
Nell

TLFisher · 06-10-2023, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

TLFisher,
Can you please provide the source for this quote from your original post #138?
Thanks,
Nell

Hi Nell. Here is the link:
https://shepherdingwords.com/were-ma...ls-forced-out/

Ohio · 06-10-2023, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLFisher

shepherdingwords.com is withholding facts while presenting their content as the whole. I dare to say they are bearing false witness against brothers who have given their eyewitness accounts.

I have watched these "wordsmiths" at LSM/DCP play with words for decades to spin every event of LC history in order deceive and manipulate their followers.

Here's a phrase WL et.al. often used to equivocate and obfuscate the facts:

"I never controled anybody. I can't even control a mosquito."

Makes them sound totally innocent and benign, right? Of course, besides squashing a mosquito, who can control them? So all these accusations of "control" by ex-members must be false, right? Not so fast.

For years many of us have witnessed, or have been personally subjected to, the power of a fear-based system which regularly uses guilt, humiliation, and public shaming in order to control others.

I remember one such time. I privately called out the abuser. I told him I don't like the humiliation and public shaming in order to manipulate me. He quickly responded, "I never controlled anybody! No, not once!" Even after I called out his B.S., he still refused to admit what he was doing. It's so ingrained into their thinking, it's like an impenetrable steel-reinforced-concrete stronghold.

TLFisher · 06-11-2023, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Hi Nell. Here is the link:
https://shepherdingwords.com/were-ma...ls-forced-out/

From this article just to raise a question from what shepherdingwords.com is not saying:

Quote:

On August 13, 1978, one of the elders in Anaheim shared a message in a church meeting from First and Second Timothy and Titus concerning how important it is for a believer to take care of their conscience before God (1 Tim. 1:5, 19; 3:9; 4:2; 2 Tim. 1:3; Titus 1:15).

My guess "one of the elders in Anaheim" shepherdingwords.com is not acknowledging is likely Al Knoch or John Ingalls. Living Stream Ministry does not recognize nor credit John Ingalls for the hymns he wrote. After John Ingalls left meeting with the Church in Anaheim, tapes of messages he gave were thrown away.
Even though AL Knoch never said anything publicly against Witness Lee, he is not viewed favorably in LC. In the US versus THEM mindset that is pervasive in the LSM affiliated Local Churches, Al was not for US so he must be with THEM. I believe Al said so himself that he was "squashed like a bug".

I would also add during this era the only Anaheim elders I remembered were John Ingalls, Al Knoch, Francis Ball in addition to Max Rapaport who left. I don't believe it was Francis Ball who gave the message. Having been a loyal brother to Living Stream, I think he would have been credited by shepherdingwords.com. Also latter half of 1978 is when I think is when Witness Lee sent Francis to San Bernardino. For certain Francis was there in June 1979 when my parents moved to that area.

06-13-2023, 09:11 AM

More garbage posted by the modern day apostles. Looks like they got some inward fighting going on behind the scenes, let’s pray this manmade thing blows up in a near future.

https://shepherdingwords.com/no-thou...-in-the-bible/

UntoHim · 06-13-2023, 11:26 AM

Excerpt from article:
But some may argue by saying, “Brother Lee, didn’t you say that the administration of the churches should be local and independent?” I may have said that many years ago, but if you asked me to repeat such a saying today, I would not do it. We may think that the local churches are independent, but in the Bible I cannot find the thought of independence. Who is independent from whom in the Body of Christ?
(The Issue of the Dispensing of the Processed Trinity and the Transmitting of the Transcending Christ, 86, emphasis added)
~

UntoHim · 06-13-2023, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WitnessLee

Excerpt from article:
Who is independent from whom in the Body of Christ?

How very convenient of a question coming from someone who claimed that the little religious sect that he founded equals the Body of Christ.

Too bad none of the brothers present when Witness posed this question had the guts or gumption to confront him about the fact that ever since the minute he set foot on our fair land in America, he had absolutely no regard or care for the Body of Christ which had been established here on our continent for hundreds of years.

And now "Brother Lee's Continuation", the Blended Brothers, have continued the charade - they too have boldly declared that their little denomination/sect/cult, which compromises less than .001% of the Body of Christ here in America, is equal to the Body of Christ. If this kind of foolery was not so tragic and dangerous to those under their spell, it would be laughable. May God have mercy.
~

Zezima · 06-13-2023, 08:56 PM

From one of the articles

https://shepherdingwords.com/being-f...-the-church-1/

In order to faithfully represent the ministry of Watchman Nee on the relationship between the apostles and the local churches, one must take into consideration the length and breadth of his entire ministry. Those who misunderstood Brother Nee in 1937 did not have the advantage of his correction of their misunderstanding until 1948. Those who repeat this error today do not have the same excuse. To misrepresent Brother Nee’s teaching by presenting isolated excerpts from his early ministry and ignoring the context of these excerpts, their plain meaning, his later correction of others’ misunderstanding, and Brother Lee’s affirmation and development is to be unfaithful to Brother Nee’s ministry and to the reader.

Ohio · 06-13-2023, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Excerpt from article:
But some may argue by saying, “Brother Lee, didn’t you say that the administration of the churches should be local and independent?” I may have said that many years ago, but if you asked me to repeat such a saying today, I would not do it. We may think that the local churches are independent, but in the Bible I cannot find the thought of independence. Who is independent from whom in the Body of Christ?
(The Issue of the Dispensing of the Processed Trinity and the Transmitting of the Transcending Christ, 86, emphasis added)
~

Not “independent from the Body of Christ,” but INDEPENDENT of your publishing house in Anaheim.

06-14-2023, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

How very convenient of a question coming from someone who claimed that the little religious sect that he founded equals the Body of Christ.

Too bad none of the brothers present when Witness posed this question had the guts or gumption to confront him about the fact that ever since the minute he set foot on our fair land in America, he had absolutely no regard or care for the Body of Christ which had been established here on our continent for hundreds of years.

And now "Brother Lee's Continuation", the Blended Brothers, have continued the charade - they too have boldly declared that their little denomination/sect/cult, which compromises less than .001% of the Body of Christ here in America, is equal to the Body of Christ. If this kind of foolery was not so tragic and dangerous to those under their spell, it would be laughable. May God have mercy.
~

The moment anyone comes close to questioning the absolute authoritarian structure of the local church, they invoke the “continual apostolic reign” to squash any and all supposed dissenters. Clamming for power, rule and subsequent adherence to “ministry of Lee and Nee”, is a inherent disease of the current deformed leadership. I continue to get amazed that they haven’t been able to post a single article YET, where nether of the man are featured to be the final say regarding faith and practices. I’m guessing that the New Testament wasn’t enough for them to see how many times it warns about this precise situation, so they now have the Last Testament to go by, which is an addition to Word of God written by Lee.

Nee used it in the 1930-40s, Lee used it in 1970-80s, and now the self conceited blended are on the same path. Can anyone say history repeats itself? It does, like clockwork. However each time it does, it takes people further down the path and away from Christ. O foolish blended, who had bewitched you? For no other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ, are you all this blind? Christ should have preeminence in all things, but these two men should be avoided at all costs as the most divisive and self serving men that they were. Everyone is in division except the members of LC as I was told many times, makes only sense when you have and are building on another foundation. Now, having mocked all others from your high ground is a fruit that will bring more rotten fruits down the road! I know that your phraseology is a ploy for deception, and “corrections and misunderstandings”, are blatant attempts to suppress the truth in favor of your golden goose, but even that will fade to obscurity.
(See Plymouth Brethren movement, who’s concepts your men stole, under the new banner of “Recovery”).

TLFisher · 06-14-2023, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Who is independent from whom in the Body of Christ?

Very important question. Who is independent from whom?
Are the Living Stream Ministry affiliated churches independent from the Body of Christ? They would not say so, but their actions indicate otherwise.
This federation of churches would not fellowship with churches that are not affiliated with Living Stream Ministry. Look at the Church in Moses Lake or the Church in Rosemead. Or any other local church that was affiliated with Living Stream in past tense.
On the surface Living Stream Ministry affiliated Local Churches are in fact ministry churches. Their fellowship is based on receiving of a particular ministry from a specific publisher. Apart from the ministry there can be no fellowship. Which is why Living Stream Ministry affiliated Local Churches conduct themselves as if they are independent from the Body of Christ.

Ohio · 06-16-2023, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Very important question. Who is independent from whom?
Are the Living Stream Ministry affiliated churches independent from the Body of Christ? They would not say so, but their actions indicate otherwise.
This federation of churches would not fellowship with churches that are not affiliated with Living Stream Ministry. Look at the Church in Moses Lake or the Church in Rosemead. Or any other local church that was affiliated with Living Stream in past tense.
On the surface Living Stream Ministry affiliated Local Churches are in fact ministry churches. Their fellowship is based on receiving of a particular ministry from a specific publisher. Apart from the ministry there can be no fellowship. Which is why Living Stream Ministry affiliated Local Churches conduct themselves as if they are independent from the Body of Christ.

For those interested in knowing the actual truths of Scripture, the best resource book on this subject is -
THE CHURCHES OF GOD, A Treatise for the Times, Constitution, Government, Discipline and Ministry of the Church of God, by G. H. Lang

Lang was an “open” Brethren who wrote in the aftermath of numerous “storms” and divisions which rocked their assemblies. The same issues addressed in recent “ShepherdingWords.com” articles on “Independence” faced Brethren assemblies of old. This thought is far from new, but unfortunately few in the LC’s know the truth, so LSM can continue their manipulative ways.

When WL was alive and LSM took control of all the LC’s during the time of “The New Way,” brothers like Bill Mallon and John Ingalls began circulating Lang’s book. WL then called that special Rosemead Thanksgiving conference to attack these truths circulating in the Recovery. He even “spat” on the book in public. Prior to that, WL had always spoken highly of Lang.

These events were recorded by John Ingalls in his account, Speaking the Truth in Love, which is also available on this LCD forum.

TLFisher · 06-18-2023, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not “independent from the Body of Christ,” but INDEPENDENT of your publishing house in Anaheim.

That is what it amounts to. Those in the Local Churches, know your Local Church history and not just what the co-workers decide what to disseminate.
There have been local churches before that have disassociated with Living Stream Ministry and still gone on to function as a local church.

TLFisher · 06-19-2023, 03:12 PM

The article says many proper things regarding covering. However the question remains, when is covering not covering up?
Perhaps other have sensed as I do, a lack of transparency when meeting with the local churches becomes a lack of trust.
Some may have heard as I did when a brother or sister raises a concern and they become the ones disciplined for bringing forth the concern.

Quote:

The principle of appealing to the apostles is illustrated in 1 Corinthians. In 1:11 Paul wrote, “For it has been made clear to me concerning you, my brothers, by those of the household of Chloe, that there are strifes among you.” In Corinth the problem was not with a sinning elder, as in 1 Timothy, but with an inadequate eldership that allowed all manner of disorder to persist in the church. The restoration of the church in Corinth was the outcome of the faithful saints of the household of Chloe, a sister, and other saints making the situation known to the apostle Paul.
How can the apparent contradiction between the story of Noah and Paul’s charge in 1 Timothy 5:19 be reconciled? Both involve failures committed by appointed authorities in God’s government. Noah’s failure did not damage God’s government or diminish Noah’s standing as God’s deputy authority in His government over mankind after the flood. After learning of his sons’ reactions to his failure, Noah still spoke governmentally as God’s representative in dealing with his sons (Gen. 9:25-27). In this case Ham should have cared for God’s government by covering his father’s nakedness rather than speaking about it loosely to his brothers. In order to keep ourselves in the position to enjoy God’s blessing, we should not repeat Ham’s failure but should properly care for God’s government.
The failures of elders that are reported to the apostles according to 1 Timothy 5:19 should be serious failures that damage God’s government or inflict harm on the local church or the saints among whom the elders have been appointed as overseers by the apostles (Acts 14:23; Titus 1:5). Such reporting is itself a caring for God’s government in the church. Because making an accusation against an elder is a very serious matter, for the sake of accuracy, the accusation should present verifiable facts in writing and not merely be spoken. Furthermore, it should not be received except on the word of two or three witnesses.

I think of what happened to Mario Sandoval initially in Ontario, California and subsequently in San Diego, California. Unless Mario is being called a liar, appealing to the co-workers as he did is what they're saying appeal to the apostles (which they are not). The aftermath of what happened to Mario there was a covering/cover up.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ght=hear+cases

newman263 · 06-20-2023, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

For those interested in knowing the actual truths of Scripture, the best resource book on this subject is -
THE CHURCHES OF GOD, A Treatise for the Times, Constitution, Government, Discipline and Ministry of the Church of God, by G. H. Lang

Lang was an “open” Brethren who wrote in the aftermath of numerous “storms” and divisions which rocked their assemblies. The same issues addressed in recent “ShepherdingWords.com” articles on “Independence” faced Brethren assemblies of old. This thought is far from new, but unfortunately few in the LC’s know the truth, so LSM can continue their manipulative ways.

When WL was alive and LSM took control of all the LC’s during the time of “The New Way,” brothers like Bill Mallon and John Ingalls began circulating Lang’s book. WL then called that special Rosemead Thanksgiving conference to attack these truths circulating in the Recovery. He even “spat” on the book in public. Prior to that, WL had always spoken highly of Lang.

These events were recorded by John Ingalls in his account, Speaking the Truth in Love, which is also available on this LCD forum.

Thank you so so much for introducing me (and the rest of us members) to this article (by G.H.Lang), which is on the exact subject (and in the scholarly style and form) that I longed for a long time. Previously, I had always tried to imagine the details of the stepwise transformations that might have occurred to the “Churches of God” between the 1st century (the Apostolic church times) and the 4th century (the federation of churches now sanctioned by the State). But I could not find any materials even proximate to this subject, until this. I just bought the kindle version from Amazon.com and am reading it with gusto. So far, the way I imagined how it happened was very similar (in principle) to that history told in its first three chapters. (I am NewMan263: anyone can read my self-introduction HERE)

Zezima · 06-20-2023, 08:33 PM

The ministry is one thing, and the ministry stations that serve it are another; they are not synonymous. “The ministry” does not mean, and has never meant, Living Stream Ministry. Rather, “the ministry” refers to the unique New Testament ministry. Moreover, the leadership in the ministry in the Lord’s recovery is in actuality the apostles’ teaching as a controlling revelation brought to the churches through those co-workers who have been constituted with a particular portion and function to minister Christ, to bring to light the revelation of the Bible concerning God’s economy, and to perfect others for the building up of the Body of Christ

- The Relationship of Living Stream Ministry to the Ministry and the Work

TLFisher · 06-21-2023, 05:44 PM

Quote:

The Bible says that we are to forgive one another as God in Christ forgave us (Eph. 4:32; Col. 3:13). This is a crucial factor in practicing the church life for the building up of the Body of Christ and thus merits our attention in these days.

Quote:

Paul warned the Corinthians that those who partake of the Lord’s table without properly discerning the Body eat and drink judgment to themselves (1 Cor. 11:29). Brother Lee linked the unlimited forgiveness of offenses in Matthew 18—the “seventy times seven”—with discerning the Body:
What does this four hundred ninety mean? It means that you forgive endlessly. To forgive endlessly means to forget. You may be absolutely right and he absolutely wrong, but if you do not forget, the Lord will hold you accountable in the next age. Forgiving, forgetting, others’ offenses is the discerning of the Body. I forgive regardless of how much I am offended, because he is a member of the Body. If I condemn him while I partake of the Lord’s table, in eating the bread, I eat to my own judgment. (CWWL, 1978, vol. 1, 159)
Our forgiveness should not be conditioned on others’ repentance and apology. Brother Lee pointed out, “It is altogether wrong to require others who have wronged us to repent. The Bible does not teach us to demand that others repent; instead, it teaches us only to forgive others” (CWWL, 1984, vol. 5, 8).

Very good words, but in the Local Churches severely lacking in practice.
Rather the words I quoted exposes the severity of their unforgiveness. Those that were raised in the Local Churches as I was, you may think the norm is the speaking the co-workers have against elders who left. I'm here to tell you that's not normal. That is not building up of the Body of Christ. Rather it is abnormal.
What is normal? By God's grace, I was able to witness it nearly a decade ago. I was meeting with a community church. One of the elders dissented with direction of the church. At his final meeting the pastor called up the elders, they blessed and prayed for this brother and his spouse. The pastor extended an open invitation to visit any time.
I have wondered had our Local Church history been any different had John Ingalls, Al Knoch, Don Hardy, Bill Mallon, etc had been blessed and prayed for publicly? Instead history has shown any offenses these brothers have caused anyone, there has not been any forgiveness.

gr8ful · 06-22-2023, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

The ministry is one thing, and the ministry stations that serve it are another; they are not synonymous. “The ministry” does not mean, and has never meant, Living Stream Ministry. Rather, “the ministry” refers to the unique New Testament ministry. ...

- The Relationship of Living Stream Ministry to the Ministry and the Work

This kind of careful parsing of definitions in The Lord's Recovery is not unique to delineating the difference between "The Ministry" and "Living Stream Ministry." It is also used on college campuses to draw a distinction between "Christians on Campus," or similar, and "the Local Church." That is, both are "distinctions without a difference" in practice.

Ohio · 06-23-2023, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newman263

Thank you so so much for introducing me (and the rest of us members) to this article (by G.H.Lang), which is on the exact subject (and in the scholarly style and form) that I longed for a long time. Previously, I had always tried to imagine the details of the stepwise transformations that might have occurred to the “Churches of God” between the 1st century (the Apostolic church times) and the 4th century (the federation of churches now sanctioned by the State). But I could not find any materials even proximate to this subject, until this. I just bought the kindle version from Amazon.com and am reading it with gusto. So far, the way I imagined how it happened was very similar (in principle) to that history told in its first three chapters. (I am NewMan263: anyone can read my self-introduction HERE)

Lang’s book was out of print back in the 00’s when LSM came into the Midwest LC’s and divided every church. I remember talking to Brother Schoettle at the time, and he told be that Bill Mallon back in the 80’s bought hundreds of this book, and was distributing books to the saints. That’s why WL publicly condemned Lang’s book at the Rosemead Conference. He even spat on the book in disgust. Lang’s book exposes all the rotten tricks, bad teachings, and false principles emanating from LSM for decades, which have been used to deceive the saints.

The mission of Schoettle Publishing is to preserve the many truths, especially the truths of the Kingdom, that were taught by late 19th and early 20th scholars like George Lang, Roger Govett, and David Panton. No current authors since then have taught with such clarity the book of Revelation, the rapture, the second coming of Jesus, etc. Highly recommended.

Here is Brother Schoettle speaking on his website. Just scroll down to the short video.

Ohio · 06-23-2023, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gr8ful

This kind of careful parsing of definitions in The Lord's Recovery is not unique to delineating the difference between "The Ministry" and "Living Stream Ministry." It is also used on college campuses to draw a distinction between "Christians on Campus," or similar, and "the Local Church." That is, both are "distinctions without a difference" in practice.

LSM has perfected the art of “lawyerly wordsmithing” to regularly deceive their members. For 30 years I trusted them, but never again. One can never get a straight answer from these people! They thrive in equivocation and plausible deniability like the rotten politicians ruining our country.

TLFisher · 06-24-2023, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Our desire to “gain the brother” is motivated by love. Likewise, our loving care may include protecting victims or potential victims and seeking help concerning how to address consequences that result from a sinful behavior.
Another key point is the way in which the matter is addressed. Ham broadcast Noah’s failure with no consideration for his father or other members of the family. There is no justification in Scripture for unrestrained broadcasting of others’ failures. If the problem cannot be resolved by one-on-one personal contact (Matt. 18:15), the proper way is to make the matter known privately to someone who can render shepherding help (v. 16) or, if the matter requires governmental dealing, to God’s appointed authorities. If the matter is local, it should go to the elders as the representatives of the church (v. 17). As Brother Nee explained, “Telling the church does not mean that we publicize the matter when the whole church is gathered together. It means telling the responsible elders in the church” (Messages for Building Up New Believers, Volume 2, 359).

What Watchman Nee said in bold may be consistent with his culture, it is not consistent with normal Christian teaching and practice.
For example let us examine various commentaries on Matthew 18:17.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
Tell it unto the church.—Here, and here only in our Lord’s teaching after the promise to Peter (Matthew 16:18), we have the word Ecclesia repeated. The passage takes its place among the most conspicuous instances of the power of a word. Theories of church authority, as exercised by the priesthood, or bishops, or councils, or the personal infallibility of the Bishop of Rome, have been built upon it. The last clause has been made the groundwork of the system of church discipline which loads the heretic with anathemas, excommunicates the evil-doer, places nations under an interdict. It can scarcely be doubted that the current thoughts and language of Englishmen as to ecclesiastical discipline would have been very different, if instead of “tell it unto the church,” “if he neglect to hear the church,” we had had the word “congregation.” And yet this, or some such word (say “assembly” or “society”), is confessedly the true meaning of the Greek, and was the rendering of all the English versions, from Tyndale onwards, till the Rhemish translators introduced “church,” and were followed by the Authorised version.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Tell it to the church - See the notes at Matthew 16:18. The church may here mean the whole assembly of believers, or it may mean those who are authorized to try such cases - the representatives of the church, or these who act for the church. In the Jewish synagogue there was a bench of elders before whom trials of this kind were brought. It was to be brought to the church in order that he might be admonished, entreated, and, if possible, reformed. This was, and is always to be, the first business in disciplining an offending brother.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
And if he shall neglect to hear them; either refuse to speak with them, or to suffer them to speak with him; or, hearing them with his ears, if he persists to deny the fact, or to justify the fact, as if it were no sin, or go on still in the same course; (all these things are to be understood by the term of not hearing); if he shall not hear them, tell it to the church. That the term church is a noun of multitude is evident, and therefore cannot be understood of any particular person. Some would by the church here understand the political magistrate; but as this sense is embraced by very few, so it is very improbable that our Saviour should send Christians in that age to the civil magistrates, when they were all great haters and persecutors of the Christian religion, especially in cases that were not punishable by the judges; for no deliberate person will say, that the offences mentioned in this text were all of that nature as a civil judicature might take notice of them. Others say, that by the church is here meant the Jewish court called the Sanhedrim, which had a mixed cognizance, both of civil and ecclesiastical causes. There are three prejudices against this:

1. That the Jewish court was never in Scripture called ’ Ekklhsia.

2. That it is not probable that our Saviour would direct Christians to go to the Jewish courts in such cases.

3. That the Sanhedrim was too great a court to be troubled with all scandals, though they did take cognizance of some things in religion, which were of a grand concern; such as blasphemy, idolatry, false prophets, &c.

Others therefore understand it of the Christian church. Against this opinion there is this great prejudice, that there was no such thing in being at that time; but I take this to be a lighter objection than those against the two other opinions:

a) Because we need not understand our Saviour speaking with relation to the present time, but the time to come, and giving laws which should take place and abide from the gathering of the Christian church to the end of the world.

b) Nor is it necessary that we should take the term church here in the strict sense, in which it is most generally used in the Scriptures of the New Testament for the general notion of the word is only a company of people called together; and in this sense, Tell the church, is no more than, Tell the multitude, make his crime more public: now what that multitude was which our Saviour meant, would easily be understood when the churches came to be formed.
Reference from https://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/18-17.htm

Covering would make sense if a brother/sister is gained by the Matthew 18:15-16 approach. As far as verse 17 goes, telling it to the church is simply that. Making it public is necessary since the brother/sister was not gained privately.
One of the churches I had met with since leaving the Local Churches did have to resort to "telling it to the church". Around 2017/2018 a Matthew 18:15-16 approach was used towards a sinning elder. He was unable to be gained. As a result there was a "telling it to the church" which in this age everyone on the church email list received an email what had transpired and what will happen going forward regarding this brother.

TLFisher · 06-25-2023, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLFisher

I have wondered had our Local Church history been any different had John Ingalls, Al Knoch, Don Hardy, Bill Mallon, etc had been blessed and prayed for publicly? Instead history has shown any offenses these brothers have caused anyone, there has not been any forgiveness.

I have more to say regarding Forgiveness and the Building Up Of The Body of Christ. It is not nice to say, but when I think of shepherdingwrods.com article on forgiveness, I think of 1 Corinthians 13:1 “If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.”
Truly I have not seen any evidence of forgiveness from elders, co-workers et towards ones who had left willingly or were not welcome to meet.
Steve Isitt was one not welcome to meet in Seattle area localities until he “got right with the brothers”. Elders and co-workers I knew who also knew Steve said they love brother Steve. Yet the evidence I saw was quite the contrary. There were several memorial meetings I attended which Steve also attended. In 2007 for Nat Washington Sr (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...on-dies-at-93/)
in Ephrata, Washington. What I witnessed was brothers shunning and maybe even glares of contempt in Steve’s direction. Then again in 2014 in Bellevue, Washington at my uncle’s memorial meeting. I saw brothers shunning Steve. No evidence of forgiveness.
Let’s take John Ingalls. He was a brother who met with the local churches from 1962-1989. He left willingly. Since 1974 until I believe his death in 2016 had lived in Anaheim, California. In years since his passing there have been several conferences/trainings around the world where blended brothers invoke the name of John Ingalls in a very negative sense. Why such unforgiveness towards John?
In my communication with John whether verbally or via email, he was never critical of Witness Lee. Rather he appreciated Witness Lee’s ministry. What happened after John left in 1989? In a very real sense one door closed and another door opened. Stephen Kaung was a colleague of Witness Lee whom John first met Stephen in 1952. Naturally the local churches churchlife kept John very occupied and couldn’t labor with Stephen until after leaving the local churches in 1989. Through the 90’s and 2000’s John spoke at many conferences. Some of which can be found at:https://www.christiantapeministry.co...00000000000078

In recent years prior to his death there have been reports concerning John where Full Time trainees allegedly were door knocking and knocked at John’s home. John was impressed by them, but perhaps one trainer in particular was quite upset and maybe took steps trainees were not to door knock in that neighborhood again? This report came from people within the local churches and former members as well.
There must have been a lovefeast or dinner in the Anaheim area, where someone had invited John. Someone recognized John, and even being gone for 25 years was still not welcome and escorted from the premises. So petty and childish. Makes me think of 1 Corinthians 13:11a “When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child.” Once again no evidence of forgiveness.

Everything I have heard and read concerning Steve Isitt and John Ingalls repentance was required. However nothing was ever said they were forgiven. This is a contradiction Shepherdingwords.com says in their article on forgiveness “Our forgiveness should not be conditioned on others’ repentance and apology. Brother Lee pointed out,

Quote:

It is altogether wrong to require others who have wronged us to repent. The Bible does not teach us to demand that others repent; instead, it teaches us only to forgive others” (CWWL, 1984, vol. 5, 8).

Shepherdingwords.com puts in print saying all the right words, but without love it is nothing but a noisy gong.

Ohio · 06-26-2023, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Shepherdingwords.com puts in print saying all the right words, but without love it is nothing but a noisy gong.

"All the right words, yet without love" is an apt description of Laodicea also.

LSM/LC "shunning" is no different than other legalistic, man-pleasing, fear-based sects like the Amish.

Robert · 07-02-2023, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

"All the right words, yet without love" is an apt description of Laodicea also.

LSM/LC "shunning" is no different than other legalistic, man-pleasing, fear-based sects like the Amish.

I think this parable fits perfectly.
On the surface all their words sounds good and biblicaly.
I listened one messege of Minoru from another thread about wind of teaching... It looks like we can listen to him thinking it is him blowing that wind.
It is called paradox.
So what we can do? Just take care of our own salvation.

Mat 13:24
Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man that sowed good seed in his field:
13:25
but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away.
13:26
But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
13:27
And the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it tares?
13:28
And he said unto them, An enemy hath done this. And the servants say unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
13:29
But he saith, Nay; lest haply while ye gather up the tares, ye root up the wheat with them.
13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.
13:31
Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
13:32
which indeed is less than all seeds; but when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the heaven come and lodge in the branches thereof.
13:33
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till it was all leavened.
13:34
All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spake he nothing unto them:
13:35
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.
13:36
Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
13:37
And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
13:38
and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil [one];
13:39
and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.
13:40
As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.
13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
13:42
and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.

newman263 · 07-15-2023, 10:42 PM

G. H. Lang’s book, “Churches of God”, was first published in 1928. So, it is reasonable that there are no references at all to WN, WL, Little flock, the Recovery, or LSM. Lang’s book presented a principle (or theory) that is amazingly and accurately prophetic: It laid out the predictable spiritual degradation that might happen with the forming of any kind of (what he aptly called) “federation of churches” that started to appear after the 1st Century, consummating with the (totally hierarchical) Roman-Empire-state-sanctioned RCC in the 4th. Lang does, however, criticize by name, J. N. Darby, and the Exclusive Brethren assemblies, along with their terrible faults. The ideal (vision) Lang espoused was the inter-local-church pattern as depicted by the 1st century Apostolic churches in the Book of Acts, and the Epistles. He mentions how the Plymouth Brethren assemblies, when initially formed, adhered, and were closely adhering, to that pattern (of the Apostolic Church era); But later then deviated, culminating with Darby’s actions to form a confederation within, and then split, the Brethrens into two camps, in 1848: namely the Open Brethren, and the Exclusive Brethren. Similarly, I could also infer that both WN and WL eventually deviated from some of the (more difficult to implement) ideal vision and patterns set up in WN’s own book “Rethinking the Work”, published ten years later in 1938. Both WN’s book and Lang's book dealt with (to me, coincidentally, or suspiciously) very similar ideal visions on "ministry" and (the proper relationship between) "local churches". For example, according to Lang’s book, Darby mentioned that a local church jurisdiction should be on the basis of one-city-one-church. Wherefore: This made me surmise that WN apparently read Lang’s book, agreed with the one-city-one-church concept or vision, and then ran with it as though his own.

Ohio · 07-16-2023, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newman263

G. H. Lang’s book, “Churches of God”, was first published in 1928. So, it is reasonable that there are no references at all to WN, WL, Little flock, the Recovery, or LSM. Lang’s book presented a principle (or theory) that is amazingly and accurately prophetic: It laid out the predictable spiritual degradation that might happen with the forming of any kind of (what he aptly called) “federation of churches” that started to appear after the 1st Century, consummating with the (totally hierarchical) Roman-Empire-state-sanctioned RCC in the 4th. Lang does, however, criticize by name, J. N. Darby, and the Exclusive Brethren assemblies, along with their terrible faults. The ideal (vision) Lang espoused was the inter-local-church pattern as depicted by the 1st century Apostolic churches in the Book of Acts, and the Epistles. He mentions how the Plymouth Brethren assemblies, when initially formed, adhered, and were closely adhering, to that pattern (of the Apostolic Church era); But later then deviated, culminating with Darby’s actions to form a confederation within, and then split, the Brethrens into two camps, in 1848: namely the Open Brethren, and the Exclusive Brethren. Similarly, I could also infer that both WN and WL eventually deviated from some of the (more difficult to implement) ideal vision and patterns set up in WN’s own book “Rethinking the Work”, published ten years later in 1938. Both WN’s book and Lang's book dealt with (to me, coincidentally, or suspiciously) very similar ideal visions on "ministry" and (the proper relationship between) "local churches". For example, according to Lang’s book, Darby mentioned that a local church jurisdiction should be on the basis of one-city-one-church. Wherefore: This made me surmise that WN apparently read Lang’s book, agreed with the one-city-one-church concept or vision, and then ran with it as though his own.

Interesting, very interesting.

For decades we heard how WN received great revelation from which he wrote on the so-called ground of oneness. We do know already that WN plagiarized Penn-Lewis in his book Spiritual Man. To speculate about WN and Lang’s book here is then entirely appropriate.

WN initially used these concepts of oneness to solidify his authority within the movement, detaching his followers from external ecclesiastic influences, i.e. the greater body of Christ throughout the earth. Later on, however, he discarded these principles when they were no longer serving him.

Did not Darby and WL do the same? Lang’s book was specifically written to expose the errors of Darby and the Exclusives, connecting their misguided principles with Roman Papalism. In the wake of the “New Way,” after Bill Mallon et.al. distributed copies of Lang’s book, injecting “troublesome” Biblical truths into the Recovery, WL publicly condemned the book at that infamous 1988 Rosemead conference, even going so far as spitting on it.

TLFisher · 08-06-2023, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Some have claimed that questions are not allowed in the local churches. On the one hand, this should not be true in any local church. On the other hand, all the saints must discern between proper and improper questions and between questions and questionings. A proper question takes as its goal receiving an answer that enables one to grasp the truth, advance in the Christian life, or resolve a problem or concern.

Questions are not encouraged. When questions are asked that usually becomes an indicator the person is a problem.
Something that is true for a believers is a desire for truth and transparency. When questions are responded with a "plausible deniability" response, the concerns are not alleviated and in time give the appearance of questionings when there becomes a series of questions needing resolution to.
More often than not there is not a willingness to entertain questions. Where does a brother or sister go to with questions for their concerns go to if there is unwillingness to receive questions? An internet search engine which brings them to http://localchurchdiscussions.com

Robert · 08-07-2023, 03:26 AM

"Some have claimed that questions are not allowed in the local churches. On the one hand, this should not be true in any local church. On the other hand, all the saints must discern between proper and improper questions and between questions and questionings. A proper question takes as its goal receiving an answer that enables one to grasp the truth, advance in the Christian life, or resolve a problem or concern."

I am not sure if it comes originally from WL but let me "kill" this stupid manipulatve definition with one picture from home life:
Mom to kid: Clean up your room right now!
Kid to mom:
I want to go out to play now. Should I clean my room right now?

Isn't question and questioning in one?

TLFisher · 08-07-2023, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Isn't question and questioning in one?

Hi Robert, my interpretation is questions are an inquiry. Questionings are more like an interrogation.
When questions are not answered transparently and truthfully, well yeah follow up questions will appear as an interrogation.
In my experience "responsible brothers" do not like to answer questions with humility. Rather take the stance of assuming representatives of God's government. Observation the brothers are not accustomed to being on the defensive and not having control of the narrative, but would rather be the ones going on the offensive and asserting the narrative in a passive aggressive tone.

ACuriousFellow · 08-07-2023, 04:49 PM

All this talk of questions bring to mind a particular passage from The Life-Study of Genesis:

Let me now tell you the secret to being solidly perfected to be a strong pillar for the Lord’s move. Certain brothers have been perfected because they have had no concepts of their own. Recently, one brother declared strongly that he only knows to follow the ministry of Brother Lee and to absorb everything of this ministry. There have been others among us who were quite opinionated. They often said, “Brother Lee says such-and-such. Is this right? Is the church right? Just a week ago, I learned about a mistake made by the church.” None of these opinionated ones has yet been perfected. But those who have been perfected to be pillars are not like this. Even when they see certain mistakes, they forget about them, having no time to waste discussing them. They only desire to soak in all the positive things.

According to God’s principle in His creation, in order for anything to grow there is the need for a negative side. Take the example of a chicken. We all appreciate chicken eggs, breasts, and legs, but we certainly do not care for chicken dung, feathers, and bones. Nevertheless, without dung, feathers, and bones, a chicken cannot grow. In order for a chicken to be a chicken, it must have these things. But it is not our portion to eat them. We should enjoy the eggs, the breasts, and the legs, and forget the dung, the feathers, and the bones. If we concentrate on the positive aspects of the chicken, we shall receive much nourishment.

I admit that the church in Los Angeles has made certain mistakes, and I confess that I have made mistakes. The elders can testify of this. Everybody makes mistakes. No one can deny this. I have had to make mistakes in order to grow. These mistakes are my “dung.” If you eat this, you are foolish. I also admit that I have “feathers.” The church in Los Angeles also has had a certain amount of “feathers” and “bones.” However, without these “feathers,” “bones,” and “dung,” neither the church in Los Angeles nor my ministry would be able to exist. Do you intend to gather up the “feathers” and say, “Look! This is the church in Los Angeles. Look! This is what Brother Lee has done. See all these awful ‘feathers.’” If you do this, you will not damage the church in Los Angeles or my ministry, but you will surely damage yourself. To do this is not wise. These who have been perfected to be pillars, who surely are not less intelligent than you, are wise. Their eyes are much clearer than yours. But they refuse to devote their attention to the negative things. They would say, “Although Brother Lee has some ‘dung,’ he has a great many eggs. I don’t care for the ‘dung’ issuing out of his ministry—I want to eat all the ‘eggs,’ ‘breasts,’ and ‘legs.’ I have no time to hear about ‘feathers’ and ‘bones.’” Let us follow the example of such brothers to forget the negative things and to feast upon the “eggs,” “breasts,” and “legs.” This is my burden in this message.

Are you in Anaheim as a spy, investigating whether or not Witness Lee has any “dung”? I cannot live without “dung.” To be sure, both “feathers” and “bones” can be found here in Anaheim. The elders have made many “bones.” But I would stand, even dance, upon all the “bones” they have made; I would not be so foolish as to eat them.

Three or four of us knew Brother Nee very intimately. He fully opened himself to us, and we knew his imperfections. But we realized that these imperfections were the “dung” that enabled him to exist. Unlike others, we would not cling to his “feathers,” nor to the “bones” of the “chicken” in Shanghai. If we had done this, we would have sacrificed ourselves. I never suffered such self-inflicted damage. Rather, I enjoyed the fresh, nourishing “eggs,” “breasts,” and “legs” of Brother Nee’s ministry. When a great turmoil was aroused against his ministry, I was not ashamed to say that I was an absolute follower of Brother Nee. I did not care what others said about his mistakes. I only knew how grateful I was to him for the perfection he had rendered to me. I knew the nourishment I had received from him. Even when we are in the New Jerusalem, I shall be able to say that the Lord used Brother Nee to perfect me. Apart from his ministry, I would never be the person I am today.

How foolish it would be for anyone in the church to devote his time to finding “dung” or stuffing his pockets with “feathers,” saying, “This is a ‘feather’ from that ‘chicken’ Witness Lee, and these are the ‘bones’ of the church in Anaheim. Don’t you know that the church in Anaheim has made mistakes?” If this is your intention, you are wasting your time. You are in the wrong place. Neither Witness Lee nor the church in Anaheim would pay you for exposing them. But do not think that we are afraid of being exposed. Whatever Witness Lee is, he is what he is. Whether the church is genuine or not, the church is what the church is. Neither the church in Anaheim nor my ministry is afraid of exposure. On the contrary, we appreciate it. But what will you gain by exposing us?

(Life-Study of Genesis by Witness Lee, Chapter 88, Section 2, ministrybooks.org, 1987, published by Living Stream Ministry)

gr8ful · 08-08-2023, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

All this talk of questions bring to mind a particular passage from The Life-Study of Genesis:

Let me now tell you the secret to being solidly perfected to be a strong pillar for the Lord’s move. ... Even when they see certain mistakes, they forget about them, having no time to waste discussing them. They only desire to soak in all the positive things.

...I admit that the church in Los Angeles has made certain mistakes, and I confess that I have made mistakes. The elders can testify of this. Everybody makes mistakes. No one can deny this. I have had to make mistakes in order to grow. ... Do you intend to gather up the “feathers” and say, “Look! This is the church in Los Angeles. Look! This is what Brother Lee has done. See all these awful ‘feathers.’” If you do this, you will not damage the church in Los Angeles or my ministry, but you will surely damage yourself.

Three or four of us knew Brother Nee very intimately. He fully opened himself to us, and we knew his imperfections. But we realized that these imperfections were the “dung” that enabled him to exist. ...

...Neither the church in Anaheim nor my ministry is afraid of exposure. On the contrary, we appreciate it. But what will you gain by exposing us?

(Life-Study of Genesis by Witness Lee, Chapter 88, Section 2, ministrybooks.org, 1987, published by Living Stream Ministry)

This passage is textbook example of deflection, gaslighting, and malicious manipulation. To say the sins of larceny, forced sexual abuse are "necessary" for a "minister" to exist is bold! So bold!

Then, to be shamed for noting someone doing wrong things that Jesus said to first bring up to the offender privately, but eventually tell it to the church is Anti-Christ. Literally the opposite of what Jesus taught us to do within the context of worshipping God. And not just shamed, but to be mystically threatened for even seeing the wrongs that someone does... this is spiritual abuse.

Thank you for highlighting the very printed justification for hiding sins, ignoring victims, and promoting harmful behaviors in the name of God. This is an incredible section to read.

Ohio · 08-08-2023, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gr8ful

This passage is textbook example of deflection, gaslighting, and malicious manipulation. To say the sins of larceny, forced sexual abuse are "necessary" for a "minister" to exist is bold! So bold!

WL's methodology for sinning leaders is in contrast in every way to the Apostle Paul's pattern here:

Quote:

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. - I Timothy 5.19-21

Paul actually told Timothy to reject all frivolous complaints, such as the ones -- or so we thought -- WL was describing when he shared this during the Genesis Life Study. Never ever did we consider that WL was referring to the sins and unrighteousness committed by Philip Lee, the LSM "Office Manager." When godly, mature elders in Anaheim addressed his son's rotten character and sinful behavior, WL comes out publicly defending himself and justifying the hiring of his reprobate son, "don't I have the right to hire an unsaved chef." Huh? Not if you are poisoning the church of God!

Then Apostle Paul mentions 2 or 3 witnesses, i.e. 2 or 3 credible witnesses, according to the pattern in Deut 19.15. No "chicken bones or feathers" allowed here. Rather serious crimes against the children of God. "Rebuke in the presence of all!" Had WL done that, we probably would not be discussing this still today.

"I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels to maintain these principles without bias, and without partiality." Here WL violated every single principle. WL was totally biased against every brother who demanded justice. And he was totally partial towards his own sinning son, Philip.

For those not aware of one of the serious situations in Anaheim written about in John Ingalls' account Speaking the Truth in Love, Philip Lee had violated one married sister serving at LSM. Her husband then was on the way to kill PL, until John Ingalls was able to persuade him to stop. In order to hide these sins from the church, WL had every brother expelled with blackened reputations.

He chose his own rotten prodigal degenerate son over God, His word, His church, righteousness, holiness, and the truth.

ACuriousFellow · 08-08-2023, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

He chose his own rotten prodigal degenerate son over God, His word, His church, righteousness, holiness, and the truth.

Garbage! Pure garbage, Ohio! Just like Jo Casteel's letter! An attack from Satan! An attack on our brothers! On our children's inheritance! Biological warfare on the saints!

But I love you and I'm praying for you!

...

How was that? A pretty good impression if I do say so myself.

Ohio · 08-08-2023, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Garbage! Pure garbage, Ohio! Just like Jo Casteel's letter! An attack from Satan! An attack on our brothers! On our children's inheritance! Biological warfare on the saints!

But I love you and I'm praying for you!

...

How was that? A pretty good impression if I do say so myself.

Reading the junk from LSM will do that to you.

But I do understand your loneliness. Shortly after I entered the Recovery, my own cousin told all my family that I was in a cult of WL. I defended WL against all accusations for a quarter century. My how things have changed!

When the Blendeds attacked the Midwest leadership, not only did I expose LSM corruption, but also regional abuses from TC. All my bridges have been burnt.

Truth and righteousness, walking with the Lord, is a lonely, narrow way.

Robert · 08-09-2023, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Hi Robert, my interpretation is questions are an inquiry. Questionings are more like an interrogation.
When questions are not answered transparently and truthfully, well yeah follow up questions will appear as an interrogation.
In my experience "responsible brothers" do not like to answer questions with humility. Rather take the stance of assuming representatives of God's government. Observation the brothers are not accustomed to being on the defensive and not having control of the narrative, but would rather be the ones going on the offensive and asserting the narrative in a passive aggressive tone.

Tanks, Terry!
In fact we talk about almost the same. But I replied regarding exactely these two words. English is not my native language but definition of Questioning seems to be clear. We can question other's motives or words. Or, to put in doubt.
Even thou, they should be mature enough to give answers and be open for conversation. But as You described, they aren't.
2 Tim 4:2 preach the word; be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
Rom 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
Gal 6:1 Brethren, even if a man be overtaken in any trespass, ye who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; looking to thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Tim 2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
In FTTL they kicked out at least one brother in a very sectarian manner. One brother was asking and questioning few things. He is lovely brother. Very open and searching for truth. He was simply hungry of life which he could not find at FTTL among elders.
Very common is reporting to elders that someone is complaining and questioning in room. It is hard to imagine this is happening among Christians.
Any way, they did not ask about reason or his questions. He was asked to pack all things and move out in 24 hours without any planing.
Where was exercising of fellowship?
I think he just saw their hypocrisy there.
My example of innocent kids questioning and learning obedience seems to fit also to Your's comment.
Just imagine father's attitude like this or at Universty.
Bad question! Move out from my house!
Wrong question! Get out from my University!
Nice...

TLFisher · 08-11-2023, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Tanks, Terry!
In fact we talk about almost the same. But I replied regarding exactely these two words. English is not my native language but definition of Questioning seems to be clear. We can question other's motives or words. Or, to put in doubt.
Even thou, they should be mature enough to give answers and be open for conversation. But as You described, they aren't.
2 Tim 4:2 preach the word; be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
Rom 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
Gal 6:1 Brethren, even if a man be overtaken in any trespass, ye who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; looking to thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Tim 2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
In FTTL they kicked out at least one brother in a very sectarian manner. One brother was asking and questioning few things. He is lovely brother. Very open and searching for truth. He was simply hungry of life which he could not find at FTTL among elders.
Very common is reporting to elders that someone is complaining and questioning in room. It is hard to imagine this is happening among Christians.
Any way, they did not ask about reason or his questions. He was asked to pack all things and move out in 24 hours without any planing.
Where was exercising of fellowship?
I think he just saw their hypocrisy there.
My example of innocent kids questioning and learning obedience seems to fit also to Your's comment.
Just imagine father's attitude like this or at Universty.
Bad question! Move out from my house!
Wrong question! Get out from my University!
Nice...

It is quite different with non-LC congregations. Pastors are open to being critiqued and elders are open to questions.
Simply is not this way in the local churches. Elders need not to be offended nor defensive when questions are being asked. It's nothing personal. Yet it is received as if it were personal. Reason and logic is thrown out the door.
Some people might say about responsible ones: I think of a brother and I take away reason and accountability.

Robert · 08-12-2023, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLFisher

It is quite different with non-LC congregations. Pastors are open to being critiqued and elders are open to questions.
Simply is not this way in the local churches. Elders need not to be offended nor defensive when questions are being asked. It's nothing personal. Yet it is received as if it were personal. Reason and logic is thrown out the door.
Some people might say about responsible ones: I think of a brother and I take away reason and accountability.

Don't You think that just 3 or 4 posts became definition of terrible religious people?
I can not understand how people having such a knowledge can be so hard.
But actually there are two books: " Knowledge of Life" and " Experience of Life".
So there is still chance that They will read that second one...

But to be serious, You know what is terrfying me?
That it doesn't terryfies them!

Trapped · 08-27-2023, 09:55 PM

A few more articles have appeared on the site.

aron · 08-28-2023, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

A few more articles have appeared on the site.

I read the article on women's role in the church. I have a few names to mention, many of whom are sourced and authoritatively cited within LSM literature, and even have their written works published and sold by LSM.

Elizabeth Fischbacher
Ruth Lee
Peace Wang
Dora Yu
Margaret Barber
Jessie Penn-Lewis
Mary McDonough

Where would any of these women, so instrumental to the establishment, growth and development of the Little flock, fit within the proposed structure of the article by ShepherdingWords.com?

Ohio · 08-28-2023, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I read the article on women's role in the church. I have a few names to mention, many of whom are sourced and authoritatively cited within LSM literature, and even have their written works published and sold by LSM.

Elizabeth Fischbacher
Ruth Lee
Peace Wang
Dora Yu
Margaret Barber
Jessie Penn-Lewis
Mary McDonough

Where would any of these women, so instrumental to the establishment, growth and development of the Little flock, fit within the proposed structure of the article by ShepherdingWords.com?

Recently I have been researching some of the late 19th / early 20th century scholars on Wikipedia, and it's easy to see the fingerprints of LSM's editors. They constantly use Margaret Barber to connect the prominent English ministers like Govett, Panton, Darby, etc. to WN.

ACuriousFellow · 08-28-2023, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Recently I have been researching some of the late 19th / early 20th century scholars on Wikipedia, and it's easy to see the fingerprints of LSM's editors. They constantly use Margaret Barber to connect the prominent English ministers like Govett, Panton, Darby, etc. to WN.

I noticed that they referenced a 2019 article on "turmoils." I wonder who was causing so much trouble lately that they felt the need to point back to and article from the year of Casteel and publish another at the same time where they also invoked the name of the great "rebel" John Ingalls.

Trouble in paradise?

Ohio · 08-28-2023, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I noticed that they referenced a 2019 article on "turmoils." I wonder who was causing so much trouble lately that they felt the need to point back to and article from the year of Casteel and publish another at the same time where they also invoked the name of the great "rebel" John Ingalls.

Trouble in paradise?

I'm sure someone started asking "questions." You know those troublesome "???" shaped like "serpents."

Not sure if you knew this, ACuriousFellow, since it was kind of before your time, but nearly all the articles & documents written by John Ingalls, John So, Bill Mallon, Ken Unger, Don Hardy, Albert Zehr, and so many others from back in ~late 1980's were basically unknown to all of us in the Midwest before we were quarantined in the mid-2000's. Actually Titus Chu was complicit in hiding Lee Family corruption from us! During that time, there was no internet. In the mean time, all these papers got posted online and were available for the first time.

So many eye-witness accounts, both old and new, surfaced during the decade 2003-2013 on the old Bereans site and here on UntoHim's LCD Forum. LSM assumed these past "turmoils" were long forgotten. On the day I read Ingalls' account STTIL, I lost all respect for WL. I was so-called "poisoned" reading the internet. And I was not alone. Actually I was fed up with both sides by then, and decided to leave altogether.

Same scenario occurred several years ago with the Casteel letter. Folks read her account and started digging. That letter merely opened the door wide to see past corruption. That's why LSM immediately jumped into damage control. Public meetings with FTTA's and new articles online. They have to hide the past, smear Jo C. to discredit her account, and do damage control to minimize further departures. LC members can usually handle one scandal / turmoil / storm at a time, spaced a decade apart, but reading them all together online screams "FIRE" for all but the most hard core.

ACuriousFellow · 08-28-2023, 05:37 PM

Gives me chills just thinking about it. One guy on Reddit said that the "Special Fellowship" in which they railed on Jo Casteel was "such a sweet fellowship."

I'm so ashamed to have ever supported that sect known as The Lord's Recovery. I've read more and more of their articles now than ever before as well as Lee's writings and even the "We Were Wrong" article and I feel like they've all gone mad. They don't even want to look. Too much "death," they say.

"How can others not see this?!" I keep asking myself. "Why don't they just look?! They won't even look!!"

But then I remember that I was in it for nine years.

Ohio · 08-28-2023, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Gives me chills just thinking about it. One guy on Reddit said that the "Special Fellowship" in which they railed on Jo Casteel was "such a sweet fellowship."

I'm so ashamed to have ever supported that sect known as The Lord's Recovery. I've read more and more of their articles now than ever before as well as Lee's writings and even the "We Were Wrong" article and I feel like they've all gone mad. They don't even want to look. Too much "death," they say.

"How can others not see this?!" I keep asking myself. "Why don't they just look?! They won't even look!!"

But then I remember that I was in it for nine years.

I believe the best course of action looking forward is to believe that God works all things for good because of His great love for you. You must believe that you gave your life and service to the Lord and His people, and not to some corrupt organization. He brought you to that church, and He brought you out. "Test all things hold on to the good." You have learned Christ in unique ways which have value for your own maturity and your future life.

One mature Christian counselor recommended "treasure hunting," which is to take every bad situation that comes our way, trusting that our Father has allowed it, and "hunt" to find all the good we can take away from that situation. Grace to you!

Zezima · 08-28-2023, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Only that which is out from Christ is His Body. Whoever usurps the headship of Christ damages the Body. Brother Lee told us, “Among God’s people today there should be no head other than Christ. Any head or subhead is an insult to the headship of Christ. God honors the headship of His Son to the uttermost, and He desires that we also honor the headship of Christ”

Source:
https://shepherdingwords.com/caring-...p-of-the-body/

The irony of making a claim about Christ’s headship, then quoting witness lee to support that claim.

A part of me wishfully likes to think there is someone in the inside trying to help those trapped, by writing small portions like the above here and there. Bread crumbs..

Zezima · 08-28-2023, 10:59 PM

Quote:

The church being an anti-testimony to the rebellious disorder of the world depends largely upon the sisters’ willingness to submit to God’s governmental arrangement.

Source: https://shepherdingwords.com/the-cru...e-church-life/

What’s the story about some Jesus guy and the cross? Thought it had to do with the church.

Quote:

Genuine prayer depends much on submission. For example, if a sister is not submissive, she will not be able to pray properly for the elders but instead may criticize them even in her so-called prayers. However, by practicing submission a sister will be supplied to pray for the elders and many matters related to the Lord’s interests

This is called spiritual abuse.

aron · 08-29-2023, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

nearly all the articles & documents written by John Ingalls, John So, Bill Mallon, Ken Unger, Don Hardy, Albert Zehr, and so many others from back in ~late 1980's were basically unknown to all of us in the Midwest before we were quarantined in the mid-2000's.

I also heard of distant rebellions, but there was really no way to find anything out. And being busy with the so-called enjoyment, I never stepped back and used my God-given brain to consider the obvious logical disconnects in front of me. For example, in Witness Lee's biography of Watchman Nee, A Seer of the Divine Revelation, there was a whole chapter devoted to female co-workers, but decades later, there were no more female co-workers...? The signs were there already. I chose not to look.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/search/

Or, typing "Fischbacher" into the search tab in LSM's 'ministrybooks' website produces something like 40 results, some showing Miss Fischbacher functioning as WN's co-worker. Or, enter "Elizabeth Fischbacher Watchman Nee" in Google search and numerous non-LSM results come up as well.

And then there's this:

Quote:

Having moved to the International Settlement in Shanghai in 1926, Ni constituted in 1932 a group of “apostolic” co-workers that would lead what became the Little Flock Movement: Wang Peizhen (Peace Wang) and Li Yuanru (Ruth Lee), with Ni himself as supreme. They soon grew from a small household gathering to a network of local churches.

https://bdcconline.net/en/stories/nee-watchman

And so forth. As I said, multiple independent sources confirm these observations. Where did this idea of "apostolic co-workers" come from? There's a lot of information, both within LSM documents and without, that undercuts the positions set forth by ShepherdingWords' website. So, I suspect that SW article is a sop for internal consumption. There's no idea here that this will actually face critical scrutiny.

Instead, it says that the sisters' role is to submit, pray, shepherd young ones and sisters under guidance in brothers' decisions, and avoid gossip and negativity. Again, where's a Peace Wang or Dora Yu located, here? To mention these pillars of WN's little flock in this context might lead towards one of two conclusions: either the little flock of WN was illegitimately founded as a rebellion against God's established order, or else WL's ministry subsequently and illegitimately suppressed women.

08-29-2023, 07:37 AM

What’s should be a big sign of spiritual abuse to those who read and frequent that site, is the total cowardly way it’s all done. These men claim to have apostolic authority, they claim to be the Gods appointed, but they are your typical religious mob, hiding under some blended body tags.

Every single time I open my Bible and read real shepherding words from any real and true apostles, I know who wrote that. In most NT cases, everyone who wrote something identified himself one way or another, so that those who read knew exactly who they were. However, this group of cowards who tag themselves as some coworkers or whatever they are, hide themselves from a responsibility and the accountability for what they put out. It’s a sick joke, an ultimate power move, and should be noted and exposed. I’m willing to bet that none of those men who write this junk, would be able to survive the scrutiny of these statements, and keep holding these positions of power anywhere or in any other walk of life.

Enough with their blended body, nameless and useless publications, people need to start seeing through this kind of charade, which is a nothing but a form of mimicry! Yes I said it out loud, they are nothingburgers, North American Nothingburgers! I know that it plays right into their PR practices, since “it’s good to be nothing, own nothing, like nothing, act like nothing”, but rather than taking this as a bulletin board materials for their next batch of articles, they should go back and edit all those articles with names and contact info for who wrote each one. I’m getting a little too optimistic here, I’ll stop. We all can have hopes and dreams of transparency and openness, especially coming from those that make these uber claims like the local churches do. One thing that I didn’t find in any of the real shepherding words from scriptures, that being knavish, astucious and gutless was part of qualifications for a “shepherd”.

Ohio · 08-29-2023, 10:00 AM

Hear! Hear! Well said! Frameable Quotes!

Perhaps I should point out the unsaid reason why no names will ever be mentioned again in the Land of Lee - they never know when one of their own will see the light, turn tail, and become an opposer. Too embarrassing to allow! Again!

aron · 08-31-2023, 09:44 AM

Quote:

In Acts 8 Philip the evangelist met an Ethiopian man who was reading the prophet Isaiah (vv. 26-28; cf. 21:8). Philip asked him, “Do you really know the things that you are reading?” (v. 30). The Ethiopian responded, “How could I unless someone guides me?” (v. 31) and later, “I beseech you, concerning whom does the prophet say this?” (v. 34). Philip did not tell him that it was adequate for him to read the “pure Word” or that he did not need human exposition to understand it. Rather, “Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he announced Jesus as the gospel to him” (v. 35). The Bible does not record what Philip said, but through his speaking he led the eunuch to “believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God” and baptized him (vv. 37-38). The eunuch was not saved through merely reading the “pure Word”; he needed Philip’s teaching to open the Word to him.

Then, did Philip send the Ethiopian back to FTTJ (Full Time Training Jerusalem)? No, he let him go with nothing but the "pure Word" and 2,000 years later there is a Christian island in in an Islamic sea. Looks like he made out okay.

PriestlyScribe · 08-31-2023, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

"However, this group of cowards who tag themselves as some coworkers or whatever they are, hide themselves from a responsibility and the accountability for what they put out. It’s a sick joke, an ultimate power move, and should be noted and exposed.”.

The anonymous cowards were being somewhat exposed here: https://www.gregcasteel.net however after feedback from much smarter people that is no longer the case.

So, what if anything can be done to shame these shepherding-word-wizards in the direction of repentance?

P.S.

TLFisher · 09-02-2023, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I noticed that they referenced a 2019 article on "turmoils." I wonder who was causing so much trouble lately that they felt the need to point back to and article from the year of Casteel and publish another at the same time where they also invoked the name of the great "rebel" John Ingalls.

Trouble in paradise?

I don't know. However in my opinion I do feel those at Living Stream/DCP/Church in Anaheim were scared of John Ingalls. Since John's passing there has been more liberty to talk about John from the pulpit than while he was alive.
Keep in mind since 1974 John had lived in Anaheim not far from Brookhurst Ave. Story goes there were trainees from FTTA going door knocking and they knocked on John's door. He was impressed by them. Word gets back to the trainers or a trainer and vows that will never happen again.
There's good reason for that. They're scared brothers and sisters will find out John is not the boogeyman he's been portrayed to be. Around 20 years ago one trainee I know of found that out. Instead he found John to be a minister of Christ.
In regard to Jo Casteel, I think they felt a need to gain control of the narrative. In my opinion the co-workers, elders, etc do not like to be on the defensive. Rather these so-called responsible ones desire to be the ones out front framing the narrative.

TLFisher · 09-03-2023, 02:51 PM

I was reading the article When Problems Arise in the Local Churches: Avoiding Two Errors.
There is much that can be said, but really can be summed up in one simple phrase:
"Do as I say and not as I do."

TLFisher · 09-03-2023, 03:48 PM

"This lesson applies to all Christians, both brothers and sisters, so the idea that females submit and males do not submit is a fallen concept that must be repudiated. The Bible charges us to submit to one another (Eph. 5:21) as a way to be filled in spirit and as an issue of being filled (v. 18)."

This is very true in marriage life. Submission is not one-sided. Sometimes the husband submits and sometimes the wife submits.

"The second matter that endangers the function of the sisters is gossip. Gossip kills our praying spirit, spreads death to the hearers, and annuls our ability to minister life to others. In the church life we may become aware of many affairs of the saints. If the saints’ affairs do not involve us, in principle, they are not our business, and we do not need to talk about them. Instead, we should allow the Lord to take care of the saints’ affairs. Nor should we inquire too much into the saints’ affairs when only a little inquiry is needed (133). Only after prayerful consideration before the Lord should we bring a matter concerning others to a more mature saint out of care for those involved."

When is gossip purely gossip and when is truth telling received as gossip?
This does not pertain to just sisters, but brothers too.
When a sister has a concern, who will she open to? Most likely the ones she is built up with. The concerns get back to a brother or brothers and it gets dismissed as gossip.
What do you do when these concerns is based on an immoral situation. For God-fearing sisters, to do nothing is not an option. I believe this is what happened in 1988 with the Church in Anaheim. By appearances the eldership was doing nothing and like last month's fire on the island of Maui, the fire spread too quickly within the church for the eldership to contain the situation. When brothers take their time from taking control of the situation, outrage is already in place.
I believe whenever a brother or sister has an eyewitness account of something grossly sinful, there is the expectation there is going to be action taken when they go to those in the lead. This is not just regarding the Local Churches, but any church fellowship.
I believe this may have served as an example for future dealings of immorality. Before letting the fire spread out of control, it is easier to put out of fellowship the one or ones ringing the bell of concerns.
As I said previously, gossip does not pertain to sisters, but brothers too. Late 1989 there was a series of elders meetings videotaped and a few years ago downloaded onto YouTube before being removed to claim of copyright infringement. Many of those meetings were brothers gossiping where John So was having meetings and where was John Ingalls having meetings. They were no longer meeting with the local churches, but these elders meetings exhibited so much attention where these two former elders were speaking.

09-27-2023, 08:57 PM

Many more articles are out. So they actually read sites like these to come up with the topics? Looks like it.

UntoHim · 09-27-2023, 09:56 PM

Genuine Ministers of the New Covenant
David Yoon

How should a believer evaluate whether the ministry in the Lord’s recovery—that is, the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and their co-workers who have continued to minister on the same line—or any ministry is part of the new covenant ministry revealed in the pages of the New Testament? David Yoon, who serves in the editorial section of Living Stream Ministry, has written a short monograph that directly addresses this question. In it he establishes the pattern of the apostles’ living, teaching, and ministry of life recorded in the New Testament as the standard for assessing to what degree the work of a “minister” is part of the unique new covenant ministry. He then measures the ministry in the Lord’s recovery according to that standard. To those who hunger for a pure and full ministry of the word of God, this monograph will be very instructive, enlightening, and strengthening. Readers are encouraged to take all the matters presented in this monograph to the Lord in prayer with a pure, noble, and seeking heart.
-

09-28-2023, 06:53 AM

Quote:

“Paul and his fellow apostles were such pillars, fully reconciled to God in their inward being through a thorough experience of Christ’s death and ushering God’s people into their spirit as the true Holy of Holies that they might abide in God and live with Him (1 John 2:27-28; 4:13). Because they themselves were abiding in the Holy of Holies, they could call others to come forward to join them there (Heb. 10:22; cf. 4:16). It is crucial to see that God entrusts the ministry of reconciliation to those who themselves have been fully reconciled to God through Christ. Apart from the pillars there is no entrance—signifying that only by the ministry of such ones who co-work with God can we be fully reconciled to Him (1 Cor. 3:9; 2 Cor. 6:1; Mark 16:20). If we do not receive their ministry, we will unavoidably be severed from this work of bringing the believers fully back to God and presenting every man full-grown in Christ (Col. 1:28-29).”

“The overwhelming majority of believers today have been reconciled to God only partly, having passed through the first veil but still living mostly in their flesh, their natural life (1 Cor. 3:1, 3). This is largely because most of them are under superficial teachings that emphasize the objective aspect of Christ’s death as the price of their redemption; they are not taught concerning the subjective aspect of Christ’s death as the means of deliverance from the flesh. In contrast, the ministry in the Lord’s recovery unveils the death of Christ as the means by which God in Christ not only judicially redeems fallen human beings but also terminates the flesh of the believers for their full reconciliation to God. Further, the ministry in the Lord’s recovery provides a way to experience this vision.[

“In brief, the ministry in the Lord’s recovery has shepherded many saints to deny their soul and live in their spirit by remaining faithful to the word of the cross (1 Cor. 1:18). The word of God as a sharp two-edged sword divides soul from spirit (Heb. 4:12), exposing what is soulish and condemning the natural life. By releasing the word of the cross, this ministry has saved many from wasting years wandering in their soul and opened the way for them to enter into the highest enjoyment of Christ in their mingled spirit (Deut. 12:9; Col. 1:12). It is a great validation of Brother Lee’s ministry that under his perfecting many of his co-workers experienced the breaking of their flesh for the second step of reconciliation and have gone on to serve the saints with the ministry of reconciliation, ushering them into the Holy of Holies for their uttermost enjoyment of the Triune God.”
https://shepherdingwords.com/3-the-m...econciliation/

Please, please, believe us that we are the recovered continuation of Apostles. Us vs everyone else that knows very little!

UntoHim · 09-28-2023, 09:45 AM

How very nice, and convenient, of the powers that be in Anaheim to allow this person, David Yoon, to use his name in this official article on Shepherding Words. Is this person, by chance, a "Co-Worker in the Lord’s Recovery in North America"? I understand that he is on "the editorial" staff of The Living Stream Ministry, but we all know that a number of brothers hold multiple positions/titles in the Local Church movement.

I believe this is the first (and only) article in Shepherding Words in which the author is named. All the other articles are anonymous. Why the exception here?

The authors of Shepherding Words make a claim to be "Co-Workers in the Lord's Recovery in North America." Who are these men? They claim to be apostles (at least the ones that are supposedly "Senior Co-Workers"), they wield apostolic authority over the Local Churches, and they define who is and who is not a co-worker, and which local church is a genuine Local Church in the Lord's Recovery. And they do all this anonymously. This is not only immoral, it is unbiblical. The original apostles all named themselves. They named themselves because the people who are supposed to follow them have a biblical right to know if they are qualified to be an apostle.

I challenge the "Co-workers in the Lord’s Recovery in North America" to stand up and be accounted for. What are your names and what are your qualifications to be an apostle in a Christian movement?
-

Ohio · 09-28-2023, 11:29 AM

“Beware of evil workers. Beware of dogs. Beware of false brothers. Beware of false apostles. Beware of deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. .” - Apostle Paul (Philippians 3.2; Galatians 2.4; 2 Corinthians 11.13)

09-28-2023, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Genuine Ministers of the New Covenant
David Yoon

How should a believer evaluate whether the ministry in the Lord’s recovery—that is, the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and their co-workers who have continued to minister on the same line—or any ministry is part of the new covenant ministry revealed in the pages of the New Testament? David Yoon, who serves in the editorial section of Living Stream Ministry, has written a short monograph that directly addresses this question. In it he establishes the pattern of the apostles’ living, teaching, and ministry of life recorded in the New Testament as the standard for assessing to what degree the work of a “minister” is part of the unique new covenant ministry. He then measures the ministry in the Lord’s recovery according to that standard. To those who hunger for a pure and full ministry of the word of God, this monograph will be very instructive, enlightening, and strengthening. Readers are encouraged to take all the matters presented in this monograph to the Lord in prayer with a pure, noble, and seeking heart.
-

Well,
Is there anything worse than having to have your own paid in-house individual write up a criteria by which to determine what a genuine ministry is, and then turn around and conclude that Lords recovery is it?

I guess it might be cheaper than having to shell out $625k to an outsider, and at the current going inflation rate probably couple million to do a thorough review of these mens claims & to come up with the desired conclusions. Money must be tight, or they just can’t find another CRI to write a hit piece for them. Appalling and really sad to see this state of affairs.

Ohio · 09-29-2023, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I challenge the "Co-workers in the Lord’s Recovery in North America" to stand up and be accounted for. What are your names and what are your qualifications to be an apostle in a Christian movement?
-

I agree, what qualifications do they have to Train Church Elders (ITERO) and run their seminaries (FTTX)?

Nell · 09-29-2023, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I challenge the "Co-workers in the Lord’s Recovery in North America" to stand up and be accounted for. What are your names and what are your qualifications to be an apostle in a Christian movement?
-

In the preface to the "short" 60 page evaluation we see this:

Quote:

PREFACE
...
Although I wrote this document in fellowship with other members of the Body of Christ, the enclosed contents are the fruit of my own investigation and represent my personal thoughts and convictions before the Lord. Any deficiencies or errors are likewise my own, and I would appreciate being alerted to them. I submit this writing to the discernment of the Body, knowing that my treatment of this subject, though extensive, is not exhaustive. I look to the Lord to bless it so that many saints would receive an uplifted appreciation of the ministry in the Lord’s recovery and as a result reap from this ministry the rich spiritual blessings that the Lord has prepared for His lovers.

Message to David Yoon: As members of the Body of Christ, we appreciate your coming forward. Hopefully, you understand our skepticism, since your leadership has never before identified themselves or opened itself to two-way communication. In order to facilitate your response to this challenge by UntoHim, we also wish to alert you, at your request, to errors contained in your monograph. In order to facilitate communication, please contact us at Reg4LCD@Gmail.Com. Your account will be created, suggested username DavidYoon. Your password will be provided to you by email from Reg4LCD@gmail.com. All private information will be personal and confidential. We look forward to hearing from you and having a transparent discussion with you.

Of course, if there is another way you prefer to communicate please let us know, again at Reg4LCD@Gmail.com. There may be a means to communicate on shepherdingwords.com. If so, please let us know.

From the members of the Body of Christ who contribute to and read this forum.
and
Nell & UntoHim
Admin/Moderators

11-01-2021, 10:13 AM	#2
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com Wow!!!! I would comment a whole day all liars of this cult!!! Word after word! However, this advice is not an exercise of control but the issue of a loving concern based on a discerning of the nature of these writings and their effect on those who read them" Are You kidding me? They created false definition of some regenerated spirit, they programmed people and they want to control saints! What a satanic work! I was listening Ron Kangas yesterday. This man is so lost in his mind! He is so proud and still mentioning brother who died few years ago. He described situation and this brother as defeated! Who is this Ron to judge theirs and us pulpit and authority to turn saints against those who were connected to this Brother. This time, this stupid man, Ron Kangas, did not mentioned him by name, but described situation. So he, Ron, can spread rumors instead of covering in love? He is all LC protector! This all message is about blind followers i LC! Do not check, do not read, nave no You own mind!!! And still he says, this is not mind control? You can not imagine how worse and worse he is every year! Just find record from conference 10.31.2021 I guess. And by the way. Is it honest, that sued people for using excerpts from messages? That they removed many thing from YT? That they reserved rights? Just watch clips on YT with David Wilkerson. Kinda " feel free to copy and spread!" This is massage! Free! Enjoy and share! Can honest people do anything in secret? Prov 6; 12-19 I am sick of this and full of anger. But in healthy way. I hope God will deal with Ron and rest deceiving brothers. Lord, have mercy on kids and saints in so called LC!

11-01-2021, 03:41 PM	#4
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com My reaction? Really I wanted a "vomit" emoji, but those will do too. If you didn't know better, reading these articles you would think the LC is constantly under the attack of the enemy, that the LC is preserved in a fragile special little bubble trying to protect themselves from everyone else, that every single problem in the local church is REALLY just YOU as the problem, and that they are the extreme focus of never-ending misrepresentation and unfounded slander. The overwhelming volume of lies and scripture-twisting found on shepherdingwords.com is to the extent that no one under its grips could ever see what's going on. Seriously.....talk about the "sense of death" that you get from reading their "shepherding words"! Reading the articles is like.......all they're doing is beating you down! The visual I got reading their articles was that they would still continue the same stream of blather even if they were actively falling into the pit of hell. That may be strong, but they have been clinging so tightly to the same false narrative for so long I think they would rather die than let it go. Their grip on a lie is so strong. Trapped

11-01-2021, 09:52 PM	#5
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com Good point, Trapped!

11-02-2021, 04:47 AM	#6
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,100	They're talking about themselves. I followed the link to Should we not warn other people? As I read through the first paragraph, I began to realize they're talking about themselves. It starts out with a verse: “For the time will come when they will not tolerate the healthy teaching; but according to their own lusts they will heap up to themselves teachers, having itching ears, and they will turn away their ear from the truth and will be turned aside to myths” (2 Tim. 4:3-4. Then they note that Paul's words are being fulfilled, by those teachers who are avoiding the warnings. Yes! Absolutely true. WE have been WARNING THEM!!! Many of us who have been subjected to their heavy handed "shepherding" have been warning them for years. On this forum, and in many other ways, they are being warned that their teachings are not healthy. They have turned away their ear from the truth being told to them, turning aside to the mythical teachings of Witness Lee to scratch their itching ears. They point the finger at "others" who seek/need "comfort and affirmation". Do they not have a website called "Affirmation and Critique" wherein they affirm their own words with their own words? Do they listen to anyone but themselves? Are they not the "Christian teachers avoiding the warnings..."? See the Open Letter: To the Leadership of Living Stream Ministry and the "Local Churches". They imply that there is something wrong with "comfort and affirmation". Comfort: Healing begins when the pain of being spiritually wounded begins to subside. Affirmation: It helps to know that you're not crazy for suspecting that something is not right in the Local Churches of Witness Lee. Do they find it "uncomfortable" to hear the voices of those on this forum who are crying out to be heard? Then they actually say they should heed these warnings for ourselves and warn others out of a proper heart and motive. When is that going to start? When are they going to heed the warnings from those who post on this forum? So "should we not warn other people?" Yes. Of course we should. We, this forum, are doing exactly that, and have been doing so for a long time. We are warning others about the unhealthy and sometimes heretical teachings of Witness Lee. Another warning: Matt. 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Nell

11-02-2021, 05:36 AM	#7
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7tNNo8EzfQ This is what I got from Trapped on another thread. Just listen list from 47:17 min. till the end... The whole testimony fits to LC as well. I truly think this is worthy of recommendation. I am going to use it in the future (after his permission) as testimony and share with saints. You know, just like that. I hope some of saints will find similarity and somehow Lord will open them for their own searching the truth. without "negative, poisoning words"...

11-01-2021, 09:22 AM	#1
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,824	Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com Please post reactions/comments to the latest articles at Sherherdingwords.Com here. __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

11-01-2021, 11:26 AM	#3
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com Just example: They quoted 1 Cor 10:10. But in their blindness forgot about context! Israel was murmured against Moses and Aaron but rebelious against God! Numbers 4:2; 4:9-11. So who is Moses now and who is God in that meaning? This is nonsense what they wrote. I know most of these letters written by ex members and almost all of them was not about doctrines but exactely about controling, abuse, lack of love, unhealthy reports, spying etc. They warn saint in general way making them fool. Not able to discern what is truth and what is false. We do not see such a protection. Rather encouragement to know scriptures and being able to give mature explonation what we believe in and why. 2 Timothy 3:13-17 gives us a good pattern. Publishing a letter like this, they proved that all so called LC have no autonomy and need central control. They proved, that elders are stupid in local churches and can not deal with rumors and defend themselves. How different from Lord Jesus position they took! Lord Jesus was quiet and did not fight with the world. If there is a false accusation then it does not make to defend! They say, that those letters disturb saint and grabb them from purity of heart. Well, I think they open eyes of blind people or gives answer, why for some years they had feeling of living double live? I can go on and go on... May be some one else will comment more. For me this is a little bit bitter and frustraiting. Not because of hate or wounds, but bacause I can not watch what damage they made among young people making them blind workers without basic spiritual sense, love and etc. Like robots. This is sad.Today my wife read from Prov. about Ron Kangas. Yes! You would not believe, but there is about proud people! And btw.. I hope, this letter will stir up curiosity in opposite to warnings among saint! However,it is not about outward factor. I am glad rather reading honest testimonies here from saint, who really see matter of real live in Spirit and false manners of so called elders.

11-03-2021, 08:47 AM	#9
Zezima Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 361	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com “Those who take in the false narrative of unaccountable Internet critics will be brought into darkness and ultimately division. Those who read the factual accounts of these events published by LSM, the co-workers, and Defense & Confirmation Project will touch light and be strengthened in their faith in the Lord and their realization of His recovery.“ What does unaccountable mean? Are not the people who post still accountable to God? His recovery? What in the world. This is such a creepy post to put out. It screams desperation. There are two sides to every story and LSM is begging it’s followers to only listen to their side. This is so dark.

11-05-2021, 10:18 PM	#15
Zezima Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 361	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com I think there’s a line between people coping / figuring things out, and people being divisive. A good reminder none the less to not get puffed up with knowledge. There are very real believers in the LR, regardless of how we feel about the entity.

11-05-2021, 10:19 PM	#16
Bible-believer Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 167	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com I visit the website and have a strong feeling regarding their way of making a statement. It's like a press conference publicly with the comment function closed. It's really LR's style, total submission, and listening. No opinions are allowed, and no doubts as well. It's nearly a communistic way of approach.

11-06-2021, 08:39 AM	#19
Sons to Glory! Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 2,617	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com Many of us were blessed by the freedoms we experienced there in the 60s, 70s and to some extent early 80s (in some places). Sad to say the controls/weirdness came and got tighter and tighter, until it squeezed the Spirit out the door completely! I praise the Lord He took me there and I praise Him He led me out! __________________ LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS!

11-06-2021, 02:52 PM	#21
Zezima Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 361	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com Why are they putting out all this content right now? Is there something happening?

11-06-2021, 09:26 PM	#27
soloscriptura Member Join Date: Nov 2021 Posts: 1	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com Most quotes are taken from the BITE model, which can be found here: https://freedomofmind.com/wp-content...ut-9-23-16.pdf Very glad Steven Hassan has made this available as a resource, I use this model extensively to show the fallacies of shepherdingwords.com in the article titled: Being Safeguarded by the Discernment in the Body https://shepherdingwords.com/being-s...t-in-the-body/ The numbers that go along with the 4 different types of control come straight from the BITE model based on what they wrote. In this specific article I found Behavior, Information, Thought, and Emotional control as based on these points, so no not all the points, just specific numbers & letters from the BITE model. Behavior Control: 10. Impose rigid rules and regulations. Information Control: 1. Deception: a. Deliberately withhold information b. Distort information to make it more acceptable c. Systematically lie to the cult member 2. Minimize or discourage access to non-cult sources of information, including: a.Internet,TV,radio,books,articles,newspapers,maga zines, other media b. Critical information c. Former members Thought Control: 1.Forbid critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy allowed Emotion Control: 8. Phobia indoctrination: inculcating irrational fears about leaving the group or questioning the leader’s authority a.No happiness or fulfillment possible outside of the group b.Terrible consequences if you leave: hell, demon possession, incurable diseases, accidents, suicide, insanity, 10,000 reincarnations, etc. (in this case, in LR terms: you’ll be "deadened" or "poisoned") c.Shunning of those who leave; fear of being rejected by friends and family d.Never a legitimate reason to leave; those who leave are weak, undisciplined, unspiritual, worldly, brainwashed by family or counselor, or seduced by money, sex, or rock and roll “Those who bear responsibility in the ministry, the work, and the churches in the Lord’s recovery have a biblically mandated responsibility to protect the flock (Acts 20:28-31; 1 Pet. 5:2; Titus 1:9). [Don’t disagree with that, emphasis on the biblically mandated responsibility from God.] In performing that duty they may advise the saints not to read writings in print or on the Internet that attack the local churches and the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. [Information Control] A few have miscast this fellowship as an attempt to hide the “truth” regarding the history of the recovery or to deprive others of the freedom to read whatever they like. [Information Control & Behavior Control] However, this advice is not an exercise of control but the issue of a loving concern based on a discerning of the nature of these writings and their effect on those who read them. Such advice is based on important biblical principles to which we should give heed.[They said it themselves by explicitly saying the opposite, need I say more? Notice that they did not list the biblical principles, which should be the basis and reasoning as to why people should give heed to these writings. Behavior Control]  (skipped a paragraph decided to go for the meaty stuff) The ultimate goal of the writings from these external and internal sources is to overthrow the Lord’s recovery. Consequently, these writings are full of criticism, dissension, questionings, rumors, accusations, innuendos, and the misrepresentation of facts and historical events. [Emotion Control & Thought Control] By design they sow seeds of doubt, suspicion, and even malice toward the ministry and the leadership in the recovery, causing the saints to question the revelation and enjoyment they have received through the ministry and the church life, even the things that first caused them to take the way of the recovery. Unlike the ministry, which nourishes its readers with the opening of the Bible and the appreciation and exaltation of Christ, these negative writings leave readers confused, unsettled, and deadened. In doing so, they betray their real source, which is the serpent, Satan (Eph. 4:14, footnote 5). [Emotion Control & Information Control] " I now realize how all of these websites are just an act of information control to continually push out more propaganda, and I didn't see that before so thanks Steven Hassan. Being able to see exactly how they manipulate people has been really necessary in being able to deconstruct what I was taught in the LR. I have no idea if I labelled these correctly, but this was just taking a shot at it and matching it up with the BITE model.

11-07-2021, 10:47 AM	#29
Indiana Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 713	Re: Hiding History No More “In the 1980s Brother Lee addressed similar accusations by saying, “All problems can and should be solved through proper and adequate fellowship by praying together sincerely and thoroughly. Any question and any problem can be solved by fellowship” (The Intrinsic View of the Body of Christ, 98). I sent a letter to LSM encouraging fellowship among the brothers and with me over the points I made in my first writing. Instead of responding to me I was turned over to my elders who informed me of the disciplinary measures they were placing on me based on Anaheim’s recommendation. https://lordsrecovery.us/HidingHistoryNoMore.pdf

11-07-2021, 03:57 PM	#30
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com To Indiana. You mentioned about "no more hiding". Let me exercise my mind on this part of their article below and say what You think... From shepherdingWords (https://shepherdingwords.com/hiding-history/) Article - Hiding history? "Daystar – A Failed Business One largely misunderstood matter is the history of Daystar Motor Homes. The never-realized profits from the manufacture and sales of Daystar recreational vehicles 1.were intended to support full-time workers and the acquisition of church meeting halls as the local churches spread. 2. A small minority of members of various local churches either invested in or loaned funds to Daystar. The business failed. Regrettably, investors lost money. 3.Those who made loans to Daystar were repaid except when the loan was explicitly forgiven by the lender. 4.No local church was involved with the ownership or operation of Daystar." 1. "intented" -Intention is a matter of mind and heart. Those are placed in man. So the question is: by whom intended? WL? Did really all saints where informed that they can lose money and have debt on account? Let say I ask my local brother for financial help. As loving brother I have responsibility to not cause problem in his family. We do not see in whole Bible such a example. So they missed rut of this problem. He never should ask saints for money. So, I do not believe that explanation. 2. " A small minority of members of various local churches"- Let's take a look closer word after word...Small number... they do not say that some used pension funds. They do not mention about amounts. One person could invest 50 thousands, 10 thousands, 5 000 dollars. Times "small minority" can give whatever. So there are magic words making impression " common guys! nothing happened! That was only pension fund! That was only 10000 Dolars! We are honest and not hiding history". 3.Those who made loans to Daystar were repaid except when the loan was explicitly forgiven by the lender. I don't think all saints were repaid. I heard one tape with record of both sides. One brother who gave money and WL. First time I heard WL in private conversation. WL was rude and dishonest. Like simply man on street. I hope to find this record again. So, how do You think, what this brother and others could do in such a situation? Sue WL? It was masterpiece what he did at that time. If take of christian factor, this would be case for court. Honest saints, who trusted him in love, factor of believe, Jesus, oneness... Uhhh! I suppose that mostly it was pain and suffer and saying " what can I do, let it be" > Forgiven? Even if so, there was a sin or fault to forgive! But no word about mistake and apologize. 4. For God's sake! Blind people!!!! Only members of local churches were involved but not local churches! So what is local church stupid people!!!! Local church is people! 1 Cor 3.19 *For the wisedom of this world is foolishnesse with God: for it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.* So don't worry saints, no church was hurt! Ufff! Relief!

11-07-2021, 05:05 PM	#31
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com Part two. I could not stand it. In the Lord’s recovery we do not hide our history. Rather, our practice is to examine our history, learn the lessons that can be derived from that history, and pass those lessons on to succeeding generations. In doing so, exposing division, wrongdoing, false teachings, and injurious practices among former workers is unavoidable. This is consistent with the practice of the Lord’s servants in the New Testament (1 Tim. 1:20; 2 Tim. 2:17; 4:14; 3 John 9). At the same time, when we relate this history, we endeavor to avoid exposing sensitive information of a private nature that would damage individual members, ex-members, opposers, or their families. It is not the local churches that are guilty of hiding history. Rather, there is a concerted effort by a small number of Internet critics to rewrite the history of the local churches to suit their own ends. For them, conclusions can be drawn without facts, contrary evidence can be ignored, and innuendo and rumor can be substituted for veracity. It is this distorted and often fabricated “history” that they claim we are “hiding.” Look dears what verse they took to support lies and to manipulate. Very often we just read fast, and when we see verse we trust that " ok, there is writen in Bible". But is it? Let's check it! Start! ... if You think that I will quote only verse they gave us... 1 Timothy 1:19-20 19Holding faith, and a good conscience, which some having put away, concerning faith, have made shipwreck. 20Of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander, whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. So what this situation has to do with saints, who did not put away conscience and faith but want to have clear view about situation? Because they asked, they are shipwrecked in the faith? Should they be blind and have faith in WL and trust him? 2 Timothy 2:16-18 2:15 Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth. 2:16 But shun profane babblings: for they will proceed further in ungodliness, 2:17 and their word will eat as doth a gangrene: or whom is Hymenaeus an Philetus; 2:18 men who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some. We see here profane babblings, Hymenaeus again. And what for he was condemned? For babblings and spreading false doctrine that "resurection is past already". So is it clear picture? So again, with with the stubbornness of a maniac: What this verse has to do with seeking the truth and desire : Eph 5:27 that he might present the church to himself a glorious [church], not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."? 2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord will render to him according to his works: 4:15 of whom do thou also beware; for he greatly withstood our words. Do we really know what this conflict was about? So they use this verse and build on two verse describing Paul's private conflict? And what Paul is saying? Other words God is just and will deal with Alexander so judgment do not belong to me. But because he was "the bad one" we can expect what reward he will receive. But again, what that has to do with honest saints who just ask and trust that fellowship will be in truth and reality? Nothing! John 4-9 1:4 I have no greater joy than this, to hear about my children walking in truth. 1:5 Beloved, you do a faithful work in whatever you accomplish for those who are brothers and strangers. 1:6 They have testified about your love before the assembly. You will do well to send them forward on their journey in a manner worthy of God, 1:7 because for the sake of the Name they went out, taking nothing from the Gentiles. 1:8 We therefore ought to receive such, that we may be fellow workers for the truth. 1:9 I wrote to the assembly, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, doesn't accept what we say. 1:10 Therefore, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words. Not content with this, neither does he himself receive the brothers, and those who would, he forbids and throws out of the assembly." We see here simple story about receiving saints and helping them. So who is Diotrephes in article? First time i hear that seeking the truth saint forbid others to contact saints in LC. This is BS. I know several cases that so called blended almost for nothing recommended saints in letters sent to many churches to not contact and receive saints! I know details! Rumors and gossiping among saints without checking facts. So should we condemn if in opposite to this we want to clarify situation to not give enemy access to us? What is the fruit of this falls accusation from blended? What is the fruit of hiding the truth? Lies. In verse 9: by name please, by name. I do not know for now any brother who had such ambition. But I know blended, who never apologize, make phone calls behind back and made meetings dealing with problems not inviting saints involved in conflict. This is walking in truth? I know too much to buy it.

11-07-2021, 05:27 PM	#32
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com At the same time, when we relate this history, we endeavor to avoid exposing sensitive information of a private nature that would damage individual members, ex-members, opposers, or their families. It is not the local churches that are guilty of hiding history. from article below. Wait a minute... This is what they meant, yes? These scathing attacks extended beyond the sisters directly involved. He accused one sister’s extended family of being a “Klan,” engaging in Nazi-style propaganda, and seeking a “public execution” of her husband, saying that they wished him to be “skinned and then hung and then burned alive.” He said those who disagreed with him were the family’s “minions” whipped into a “hysteria” akin to the Salem witch trials. Faithful brothers in the Lord who urged restraint were dismissed as “mentally or intellectually challenged,” “morally dishonest,” and psychologically unfit. These were not isolated incidents but a pattern of behavior over more than two years manifested in literally hundreds of emails, some of which were addressed directly to the OKC leading ones. Even if his emails had been grounded with provable facts (and they were not), it is a grievous abuse to expose the saints’ private matters, to rail on their perceived failures and weaknesses, and to tarnish their reputations with such inflammatory language. It grieves us even to mention these words, but we are compelled to do so in an effort to recover, preserve, and establish saints who have been affected by them, as well as to set the record straight for others and for posterity that these aberrant actions do not represent the Lord or the ministry and the churches in His recovery. Moreover, instead of counseling and modeling restraint as some of the co-workers advised him to do, more emails were sent out, deriding the co-workers who tendered that advice, saying that they were “overstepping,” “undermining,” “supporting division” and acting as “bishops” in a “hierarchy.” He characterized them as “‘shooting from the hip’ without a ‘full deck.’” He said that they drank the family’s “cool-aid” [sic] and that the saints who listened to them did the same because those co-workers “have more stars on their chest.” He misrepresented their counsel of restraint as advocating that the accused brother “be thrown under the bus, essentially be excommunicated.” When some co-workers visited the OKC area and spoke with some of the parties involved, he said that the sister in one of the disputes “played the brothers like a fiddle.” Brothers, such talk is unquestionably divisive. It is not the local churches that are guilty of hiding history. Of course not! Because it is local church who ask YOU! blended to be honest and walk in truth! Blended brothers is not local church! Sorry saints but anger is coming closer and closer. I have to keep calm. If there is anything like holy anger then I have it. Anger on Blinded Brothers who trade with truth and Word. This is sect and cult for sure. But I was there and I know a lot of innocent and naive saints. I really love and miss them. So who divided the Body?

11-07-2021, 10:38 PM	#33
Zezima Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 361	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com Robert, you write three very long posts. Can you shorten it be 2.8 posts?

11-08-2021, 06:23 AM	#35
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,100	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com Only a true Shepherd can offer "Shepherding Words". John 10:1-6 10 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them. Entering the sheepfold by some other way Witness Lee tried to enter the sheepfold by another way...himself. His own "ministry." For awhile, we may have heard the voice of Witness Lee, but eventually, through spiritual discernment (which we're not given credit for having), we realized that this is not the voice of our Shepherd. Even though I met Witness Lee personally once (woo-hoo!) he likely forgot my name as soon as he heard it. I no longer, by any means, follow this stranger. I run from his words. I don't know his voice. In the same way, I don't know the voices (or the names) of those who are anonymously speaking on shepherdingwords.org. The Good Shepherd John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. There are shepherds and there are hirelings. The hirelings do not own the sheep, though they sometimes act like they do. The hirelings speak to us as though we belong to them...condescending...dismissive ...rebuke ... bullying. In this case, the hirelings behave like the wolves. They don't protect us as they would have us believe. They defend themselves and their history of following someone who is not the Good Shepherd. What the hirelings don't understand is that ... we can't hear them. We don't believe them. Or maybe, just the opposite... we DO hear them, and we DO see them for what they are...hirelings. What do shepherdingwords sound like? Grace and Truth John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. ... 16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. The Good Shepherd was graceful and merciful even to His death. Nell 579 words Word Counter

11-10-2021, 12:48 AM	#38
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,631	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com I think that the most important thing is to have peace. Without peace, who can love?* We're reduced to a kind of nervous energy. In reacting to LSM organs such as Shepherding Words, Defense and Confirmation Project or Affirmation & Critique, there's a kind of knee-jerk indignation, seeing what they write versus what's known to have happened. Poster Robert writes of a sort of "holy anger" welling up within. But my anger isn't holy, because it's shot through with unresolved personal issues. I got snookered - I was looking for love in all the wrong places, as the country song goes, and wound up in a cult. Now I'm angry about the fact that I got snookered. But James wrote, "For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God." I can't let unresolved childhood issues work through my posts, and my anger spread out to the world. But Christ died for our peace. We have peace toward God our Father and likewise to all around. We may question, and should question, but abiding peace must remain. The price Jesus paid for our peace was high. "My peace, I give to you. Remain in my peace. Don't let it go." Questions, however, are necessary.* And we should ask them until SW and DCP and A&C respond adequately. Why does LSM sell God's Plan of Redemption by Mary E. McDonough and other such books by women, if women can't teach? Why did WN copy Jessie Penn-Lewis in his Spiritual Man, if women can't teach? Why did WN have senior co-workers Ruth Lee and Peace Wang if women can't bear responsibility and authority in the church? Clearly RL and PW did. Yet 100 years later, it's no longer allowed? Why are such rules, apparently scripturally-based, so erratically kept? Why did WN have a library of 3,000 spiritual classics if only one publication is allowed? Don't tell me that each one of these 3,000 classics was written by one of the successive ministers of the age? And if not, and WN could safely and profitably pick through literally thousands of non-MOTA tomes, why can't we? Why were we told the age had turned when WL died? Yet no scripture was offered. Why is that? Why does the RecV footnote say that people are healed by the leaves of the tree of life, and live forever, but then it says that this is not eternal life? How do the words 'forever' and 'eternal' mean different things in the same passage? Please answer via scripture, not supposition. For that matter, how does giving a cup of cold water to a believer during the Great Tribulation get one "forever-healed human life" yet at any other point in human history it's apparently vain to give a cup of cold water to a believer because works are dead? Would God so arbitrarily overturn the eternal laws? How does a RecV footnote in Psalms say that an imprecation is "fallen human concept" or "mixed sentiment" or "natural" because we're called in the NT to bless not curse, yet in other Psalms the same writing is said to be a type of Christ defeating Satan? How could Paul ask Timothy to remain in Ephesus and to teach "intensification" as intrinsically part of God's economy, if Paul's never seen teaching this himself? Clearly the God's economy of Witness Lee and the God's economy of Paul/Timothy are markedly different. How to reconcile this? Why do the noted facts on Daystar in LSM website omit the role of Timothy Lee? All independent observers place him as prominent, even as the motivator and key player, and other narratives have him in similar past roles (e.g., the 1962 Seattle World's Fair). Yet in the SW website narrative he doesn't exist. Clearly the roles of immediate family members of WL affected the "storms, turmoils and rebellions" in the LC. Yet they're omitted by SW. What if Peter had taken the funds laid at his feet in the early chapters in Acts, and started a for-profit business run by his immediate family members? Don't you think that would affect the narrative of Acts? Yet there's this pretense in ShepherdingWords.com that such things never occurred. Now, can we ask such questions without being bitter, or angry, or vindictive? I hope so, and will keep trying. There are probably a lot of such questions to be asked. See, e.g., 1 John 4:20 Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another? ~Malachi 2:10 (cf 1 Cor 8:6) *Acts 17:11 __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' Last edited by aron; 11-10-2021 at 04:25 AM. Reason: footnotes*

11-10-2021, 12:30 PM	#39
Indiana Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 713	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com SO GOOD ARON! AND NEEDED. -

11-11-2021, 12:28 AM	#40
Bible-believer Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 167	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com You spoke my mind. I asked the same questions and ended up losing my friendship with close friends. I was given a hint to shut up or to leave the group. -

11-11-2021, 09:18 AM	#44
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,824	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com Zezima, Robert and others, Far be it from me to run interference for anyone (except for myself occationally.) ....but I think what we have here is a bit of a generational difference. Most of the time aron's posts are speaking to himself and the rest of us old-timers. If you look up the words "bitter, vindictive and angry" in the LCD dictionary it simply shows a picture of UntoHim, with a secondary definition given as Ohio and aron. Trust me, it takes a lot of work and effort to ascend to such lofty heights of bitterness and causticness...in our cases, we've been at it for about decade and a half now. Seriously though, what is with us 21st century Christians? It seems we spend 95% of our time and energy fighting what we are against, instead of the other way around. Maybe we would all do well to pray-read todays quote. Altogether now.... "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, But because he loves what is behind him." - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

11-12-2021, 07:07 AM	#49
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 13,693	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com Back when the Midwest LC’s were quarantined, and LSM moved in to divide every LC, I read nearly every article on the “a faithful word” website. That’s when I decided to leave the Recovery. Last night I perused a few articles on this new “shepherding words” website. It’s unbearable. The lies and level of basic dishonesty have all deteriorated. These folks have no integrity. Some may ask, how can this be? LSM teaches the Bible, gives trainings, publishes books, talks about God’s economy. The answer is twofold error. First the errant “ground of oneness.” They have convinced themselves that EVERY other Christian is divided, hopeless, and outside of “God’s economy,” and they ALONE are the truth bearers in the world. Second is their papal equivalent of “deputy authority.” They alone represent God on earth. God’s authority on earth is theirs alone to possess and employ. In conclusion, they can do no wrong. Everything they do is, by definition, right. They are accountable to no one. Their ends justify any means they take. Their illusions of power have corrupted them. They have assumed the authority to rewrite history. Their writings are all “truth” simply because they wrote them. Frightening! __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

11-12-2021, 07:26 AM	#50
Indiana Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 713	Re: Hiding Philip Lee History Hiding Philip Lee A foremost example of leaders hiding history is their hiding of Philip Lee and his mortal role among the saints and churches. He was a devastating figure in our history but he is not included in the annals, as if he didn’t exist, and he doesn’t in LSM / DCP accounts of our church history. This is a big red flag that has thrown the question wide open regarding the integrity of our church leadership. Not bringing his name and his lethal activities front and center is to dismiss major incendiary elements of turmoil and division. Blame is placed on others instead, who stood against works of darkness at LSM, were “quarantined,” and also disgraced in the LSM annals of disrepute and false reporting. http://www.lordsrecovery.us/HidingHi...eSafeguard.pdf Last edited by Indiana; 11-12-2021 at 10:26 AM.

11-16-2021, 07:50 AM	#51
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,333	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com I'm curious. Does anyone think the Blendeds really believe their claims about themselves, or are they just cynical in their control?

11-17-2021, 04:52 PM	#63
Indiana Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 713	Re: "Turmoil in Local Church" Article "This is why in the New Testament the Apostle Paul would not tolerate any kind of immorality. In First Corinthians 5, Paul charged the church not to associate with that immoral person. The church as a pure testimony of Christ would not tolerate any impurity, any immorality. The church has to be pure.” W. L. Turmoil in Local Church Testimony article 1988 https://www.lordsrecovery.us/tlc.pdf

11-22-2021, 04:21 PM	#64
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com About immorality few words. I heard yesterday sister sharing about truths on line during conference. She and her husband was in LC. They had big problems in marriage life. Brother got no help from saints and me was not enough to help. No body was interested to apply biblical way of fellowshiping and visiting and prayer. All saint was focused on positive things, and avoid anything which sounds deadly and poisoning. Result is, that this sensitive brother left home to save his mental health. There are many stories like this but this was not my point. There is another sister, which started to live in sin, telling others " so what, that sister could also do it..." Just like school girl excusing herself. This sad! And what is interesting all they can connect on line and share while many sisters know about situation. And when anybody wants to report anything brother or bring to fellowship, then nobody is mature enough to go and correct saints, bring to sanctification or just simply rebuke. I know all of them and I am really sad seeing this double life. And what they say always is : "Yes, we pray for them..."

11-28-2021, 02:50 PM	#66
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com From article BEING SAFEGUARDED BY THE DISCERNMENT IN THE BODY "1. In the physical realm, once the tongue has tasted that a substance is rancid, there is no need for other members of the body to contact that same thing to form their own opinions. Rather, all the other members with their various functions benefit from the function of the tongue as the tasting organ and are thereby preserved and safeguarded. 2. It is a great blessing and preservation for the saints to receive the ministry of the more mature members, to accept the discernment of the Body, and to reject the temptation to independently seek to discern the nature of negative writings. Behind this temptation is the implicit assumption that one has the spiritual discernment, wisdom, capacity, knowledge of the facts, and freedom in the spirit to accurately judge the matters involved. 3. To assume self-sufficiency is to disregard the Lord’s placing of the members in His Body with their respective functions, violate the Body’s organic principle, lose the Body’s covering, and expose oneself to Satan's attack. 4. May the saints in the recovery look to the Lord that He would cause us all to grow in our discernment and consciousness of the Body for the protection,growth, and perfecting of each member unto the building up of the Body of Christ." When I had a walk with my wife and our dog, I shared about this excerpt from article. Suddenly, Lord gave me better understanding of this false and deceitful article. Ad 1. When we talk about body and members, do not forget about head. They do not mention it. So let's say we have some food. It can taste sweet. But! Before we take it to the mouth we can feel it in hand and recognize by eyes. So they say about function of tongue. But what about function of others critical members? Should not we trust them? Let's say we have powder. Smells like ham, taste like ham, but this is powder. Will we eat it? Or rather brain has all information to decide to not eat it? So we can see here manipulation even against logic. And btw all members are manged by head which is Christ Himself. So other words they teach heresy that tongue has authority to manage the body.

12-02-2021, 08:11 AM	#69
Unregistered Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com "I encourage all the young people to get a college degree. Do not make spirituality an excuse for not studying. Rather, study more diligently than the secular students, get the highest grades, and go on for advanced degrees. Do not stop with one Ph.D., but get two or three Ph.D.'s. Also learn to speak a number of other languages. Gain the “Tyrian” skills and the “Egyptian” knowledge. Become a doctor in biology, medicine, or nuclear physics. There is a need in the Lord's recovery today for those with the highest education. Young people, you must endeavor to gain the best education. Arrange your daily schedule in this way: seven and a half hours for sleep, one and a half hours for eating, one hour for exercise, eight hours for study, and six hours for spiritual things. If you expend your energy in this way, by the time you are thirty you will be able to begin your ministry like the Lord Jesus did (Luke 3:23). Continue your studies until you are thirty. If many take this way, we shall have no shortage of pillar makers. Do not get married too soon. I do not like to see the brothers getting married before the age of twenty-five. Do not be burdened down too soon with marriage and children. Rather, use your time and energy for studying. The age of twenty-six is soon enough for brothers to begin having children. Furthermore, I do not like to see the sisters getting married before the age of twenty-two. If the sisters marry too early and have children too soon, they may be overburdened and even spoiled. Follow the schedule I recommend until you are twenty-five years old and see what will be the issue. This surely is good for God's recovery." (Raising Up the Next Generation for the Church Life, Chapter 17, Section 6 Compiles from the ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee - LSM) 1 John 2:15 “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” Looks like the old timers in the recovery are dying out with this whole pandemic thing, the money and donations are getting short, the lost generation are not contributing to the system as their parents did. The younger generation is a bit more advance on searching things online, so let's put up warning websites, and how do we replenish the system? Solution? Yes, lets hit all college campuses and recruit new blood, of highly educated people. They are already brainwashed, and what's a bit more of it would do? We just have to redirect them to give to the correct causes, correct things, after all, the higher the education = higher pay=more money=more LSM corporation will be buying up more buildings around the world! Hey, were are just all about spreading the "Truth" , LOL. Grab some popcorn people! People in America are so naive to think that they are advancing something, when they are just a cash cows for all these worldwide travesties. You believe what you're told, and never actually verify where and how the money are being used. You will get a video from some third world country saying that we need your help, and you all feel oh so really bad, that you give your money and more to this. Power, Money, Control, Brainwashing, Suppressing the Truth, Encouraging young people to not get married, waste time on pursuing worldly things, rebuilding the old testaments tabernacle "AKA" the church, this is what its all about people, wake up!

12-04-2021, 01:32 PM	#70
Indiana Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 713	Ministry Churches www.lordsrecovery.us/ministrychurches.pdf Nee’s statement: "What havoc has been wrought in the Church because so many of her ministers have sought to bring the churches under their ministry, rather than by their ministry serve the churches. As soon as the churches are brought under any ministry, they cease to be local and become sectarian.... “And, the ‘churches’ established will be ‘ministerial churches’ not local ones.” (pp138-139, Nee) The ministry materials given in all the above references were to be safeguards for the churches to keep them in the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace. But the leadership has paid no attention to safeguards, guidelines, sober warnings, trampling underfoot such fellowship, thus setting up the conditions for, and the causes of, turmoil and division. - Last edited by Indiana; 12-04-2021 at 10:51 PM.

12-07-2021, 01:36 AM	#71
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com " Wherein lies the failure of missions today? They keep the results of their work in their own hands. In other words, they have reckoned their converts as members of their mission, or of their mission church, instead of building them into, or handing them over, to the local churches. The result is that the mission extends all the while and becomes quite an imposing organization, but local churches are scarcely to be found. And because there are no local churches, the mission has to send workers to different places as “pastors” of the various companies of Christians. So church is not church, and work is not work, but both are a medley of the two. There seems to be no scriptural warrant for forming companies of workers into missions; nevertheless, to regard a mission as an apostolic company is not definitely unscriptural, but for missions to enlarge their own organization instead of establishing local churches is distinctly so." W.Nee , Normal christian church life Let me think, why so many members are leaving this organization... For churches lost their independence and became agencies of one corporation? Is it not what John Ingalls had a burden for all the time?

12-07-2021, 01:49 AM	#72
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com Churches are founded on the ground of locality, not on the ground of receiving a certain apostle. W. Nee Normal Christian church life Oh, really? Just try to reject apostle and minister of this age WL and his writings! No chance! Unique and every church is only keeping oneness in "healthy" teaching and one accord. Without WL there is no oneness! Upsss! Did I wrote this? In Bible we just have to keep oneness in Holy Spirit.

12-22-2021, 12:01 PM	#76
Indiana Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 713	Re: Ground of the church ShepherdingWords.com says "We should gladly accept the ground of locality as a limitation and restriction because it keeps us in the oneness of the Body of Christ. It requires us to reject our natural thoughts, opinions, preferences, and offenses to preserve this oneness. Thus, this limitation aids our knowing of the cross and, through the cross, the resurrection life of Christ." SW brothers please read DCP's reference to the ground of the church. www.truewordsfortruthseekers.com Deputy Authority and the Ground of Oneness

12-22-2021, 08:09 PM	#79
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,824	Re: Reactions to Articles @ ShepherdingWords.Com Assailing the Ground of Oneness (6): The Ground of the Church Being for the Building Up of the Body of Christ Published on October 28, 2021 5th paragraph from top. - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11