Anecdotal Observations of the LC Over the Years

[OBW]

I realize that this is not entirely about the LC in the 21st century, but I don't see the kind of place to put it, so if it needs to be moved somewhere else, feel free.

As I was writing a comment for Covert's General Characteristics thread, I mentioned something about Benson Phillips. It reminded me (once again) about something that happened in Irving in the 83 to 85 range that has made me wonder a little over the years. At a Saturday morning breakfast at Benson's house with a lot of brothers prior to the Saturday morning projects on the building, he said something to me. I don't mean he said my name and said it to everyone. The time was beginning to break up and as I approached the front door, He was there and said to me (and I don't think there was anyone else nearby to hear) something like, " we've built great fences but the sheep are dying." Maybe he said "starving." I can't remember for sure at this point.

Now, this was before the undercurrent that eventually resulted in the public expulsion of John Ingalls and his so-called conspirators, so I am not sure if there was a specific event that caused this comment. Or was it that I was somehow seen by Benson as not just a toe-the-line brother who did not consider what he thought and believed. I have no idea. But he said this to me and not to anyone else. Well, maybe he said it over and over to everyone as they left, but I have no idea.

So my consideration from this was that even if Benson was ultimately a dyed-in-the-wool, drank the Kool-Aid believer, he did have some of what I would consider being a shepherdly concern for the flock — at least still at this time. Yes, he was often considered regionally like a bishop, though no one would dare say such a thing. And his more global impact was to come later as one of the preeminent among the BBs.

At this point, I can fairly safely say that he is fully on board with the notion that the actual truth is irrelevant if it speaks against the MOTA and/or his legacy, the BBs. But it does make me slower to simply roast the average local elder, even the seemingly leading elder, in many places. Like I said earlier, they may not be quite the intentional villain we like to think.

So, the point is not to discuss Benson's statement or other things about him, but to provide the event, with some context, so that we can get a glimpse into more than the global events and characterizations that those things inspire.

Do you have any observations — recent or "ancient"? They may help paint a more complete picture of the whole that is/was the LC at different points in time.

[Covert]

Appreciate this thread OBW. I was hoping that anecdotal stories would pop up after my initial posting on some characteristic I would describe in a numerical format. Yet, it seems that is not happening just yet. Another thread dedicated to anecdotes, branching off some described characteristic in my thread seems a little more complicated than keeping things in one place/one thread, but hey, lets see how this goes.

Now I have some things to say on your post on this thread. The first thing I want to mention is that the leaders of the LR cant seem to realize and diffirentiate death. They see people being unveiled with the truth as death, without realizing the things people are now knowing because of the truth being unveiled is death. I sound a bit confusing but let me rephrase, John Ingalls was not death, John ingalls was a man of God following scripture. What death truly was, was in fact Philip Lee himself. Philip Lee transgressions were the source of poison that keeps plaguing the LC til this day. If they keep rejecting the truth and what is good, and clinging on to lies and evil (Contra-positive to Romans 12:9), then they will forever dwell in this pit of filth that they will never get out of, because they refuse to even approach the truth.

Til this day, they sully John Ingalls, and refuse to acknowledge that destruction "PHILIP LEE" brought to the LR. I know the blendeds know what the core problem was in the eighties, they just put on a rendition to partake in damage control and propaganda. Yet this behavior of fortifying/perpetuating evil still plagues the LR, until this day. Probably the reason for the lack of growth, constant turmoils, and no true life/prosperity out side of 1984/INGSOC despotic parroting/absolute goonery- is simply because they lack grace/favor from God due to their ungodliness and constant contra-positives to the word of God.

Now transitioning to your hesitation to label the average local elder to the goonery of the Blendeds. Let me tell you man, I have seen sisters with as much as goonery of the blendeds. Its not really a matter of solely relying on hierarchy, in assessing witness lee goonery. There are brothers who I know would make perfect blended level coworkers if they simply had the capacity to function as an elder/coworker. They have the absoluteness/goonery (horrifyingly so), they just lack capacity to know the ministry at large enough and well enough to not parrot in a way that does not seem like a crazy loony robot, in which their verbatim speech is on the level of text to speech software applications. I know sisters who would be perfect absolute goons/blendeds, if they werent simply you know........ "sisters". I dont know how it was in your day OBW in regards to the average environment in the LC. But today, especially after the two schisms involving long time brothers who would not bow down to the Blendeds, all thats left in the recovery for the most part absolute goons. Throughout the years there was a survival of the fittest, starting from the 80s, involving the stronger in the recovery being absolute lee goons and the weaker, those who stood by the word of God and the megalomania and insecurities of man. In this modern day, after all the events ranging from Ingalls to Chu/DYL/Tomes/Myers, a lot of the people who are not absolute to lee, are gone. There might be those who will arise in the future to break away from lee goonery, for the most part though. All people whether in leadership or non-leadership positons, or brother or sister, it does not matter, you can find full on absolute/lee goonery everywhere.

Now for the anecdotes right? Lets see if people are willing to give their stores in detail. I can also give some stories OBW, I will PM you though as it is possibly a bit revealing/person, especially with the amount of detail I want to give.

[OBW]

I don't know about sisters joining in being absolute "goons" (which to me indicates an almost militant subservience no matter what or mafia attack dogs). The ones I knew or knew of (and even know of from this forum) would not fall into that category.

The sisters were mainly treated like mentally and emotionally inferior stepchildren — with a few exceptions. They were allowed to be among the ones who popped up after the main messages or joined in the prayer meetings. But before there was ever an attack on John Ingalls, several sisters, for different reasons in different parts of the country were singled out as being joined in some broad conspiracy. Purely fantasy to keep everyone focused on Lee's teaching rather than anything else that needed attention.

And it may be that there is a tendency for some sisters to become more emotional about some things. (Ladies, please don't tar and feather me for that statement. There are plenty of foibles that tend to apply more to men, so it is not a statement of inferiority or superiority for anyone. Just an observation.) But, to borrow from part of a statement by Kathleen Kelley in "You've Got Mail," things should "start by being personal." And sometimes personal includes emotions. I know that I am prone to trying to keep emotions out of our analyses here. That is because they can cloud clear thinking. But everything is not about thinking. Sometimes it is at least partly about feeling.

[Covert]

I mean hey, just looking at Steve Isitts threads, look at all the interactions with the pinnacle of witness lee goonery. I mean look at all the interactions he has with various people in the Lords Recovery just give me disbelief and laughter of how people can so absorbed in goonery. Steve Isitt threads are probably one of the highest qualities in terms of exposing LR/Lee goonery. So to any lurkers on here, check out Indiana (Steve Isitt) profile and look at all those threads and his never ending battle with trying to give the truth to goons who dwell in lies and madness.

[Covert]

Here is something I pulled from Steve Isitt (Indiana) threads titled - Leaders of the lords recovery. It features some upper level goonery from a current LR member just babbling goonery nonsense. It is post number 15 in that thread. Cals reponse to that post is hilarious and cals response is post number 18 in that thread.

Here is those posts copied and pasted right here for you all to see.

Quote: (Quote is from the unregistered witness lee goon).

Originally Posted by Unregistered
The Truth is not a thing, but A wonderful PERSON. Your ideal church causes you to miss the vision. Ron Kangas will expose the situation in the local churches just as he will do so in the divisions because he has a vision of a PERSON. There is no "good light/bad light" as you claim. Light is not a thing, but a PERSON. Your good light bad light theory is a reflection of your obsession which causes you to have no sight and to have a death taste in your words and person. Lord Jesus we love You. Grant us Lord to turn to You. We don't agree with death. Cause it to go away. Strip all that you have to away. Grant us to go on in You until we all arrive at the full knowledge of the Son of God and the unity of the faith. Mature in us Lord. For Your building and Your Body bridify us. We want to match You. How could we feel so terribly toward other believer's Lord? Lord I confess I feel terribly towards the ones saying all this negative stuff. Lord, be our Head. Be our center. Strengthen us ALL with power through Your Spirit into our inner man. Lord make Your home in our hearts. Don't give the enemy an inch in us. Bind him to the uttermost.

(Response is from Cal)

If you want to match the Lord, you might try not dumbing yourself down, because He is highly intelligent and, I believe, expects us to use our intelligence.

Most men aren't attracted to stupid women and I doubt the Lord is going to be attracted by a stupid Bride. So while you are "bridifying" yourself you might consider "intelligencizing" yourself as well. Of course, if you did that you'd start to question most of the stupid assertions of your leaders, such as the idea that questioning or criticizing your movement equals "death." It is painfully obvious you've been taught to turn your brain off, and that you have cheerfully complied.

All that kind of talk is nothing but thought control. These guys want you to remain ignorant so you don't question them and continue to support their agenda. God, on the other hand, has a real plan for you life. I suggest you seek it out. I doubt he will be amused at the judgment seat by a plea of, "See, Lord? I did everything brother Ron said and never questioned him." Dream on if you think that is going to fly.


Edit- btw OBW, your comment regarding sisters and their treatment, you forgot one characteristic that ties altogether with what you just said and in fact makes it easier to succumb to this characteristic because of how they are treated and stripped of any sort of pedestal/worth whatsoever. So what is that characteristic that is not mutually exclusive but actually perfect intertwines with how the common sister is treated? You got it, Lee GOONERY! DING DING DING! Trust me, these days its not hard to find absolute sisters, not hard at all. I mean they nothing else to lean on, with how the LR tries to strip them of any worth whatsoever. Just have babies, cook, clean, babysit, and most importantly be ABSOLUTE for the ministry (in which that very same ministry subjects them to such degradation/disparagement)............

[UntoHim]

Covert.

This will be our second or third request regarding your posting on this forum.

Please start taking time to proof read your posts. I'm tired of doing it for you. Please use only a single space between paragraphs. I don't care how you have to fix this problem. Just fix it.

Please use capitols when writing names. It is Witness Lee, not witness lee. Maybe consider making your post in MS Word or some other program that has spellcheck and grammar check.

Lastly, please stop your constant use of the words "goons" and "goonery". I think terms like "crazy loony robot" are over-the-top as well. We will never win over the hearts and minds of our brothers and sisters in the Local Church by insulting them.

Thanks for your consideration.

Your brother who is unto Him.
-

[Covert]

You got it boss.

[OBW]

The Truth is not a thing, but A wonderful PERSON.

While I recognize that Jesus directly said: "I am the Truth" as part of the way, truth, & life statement, even that has a context. He was not talking about scientific truth (even though little was known about that at the turn of the calendar). And he wasn't talking about some kind of truth that made factual truth irrelevant or incorrect. He was talking about truth in terms of the way to live, be, and believe.

But Lee turned so many things into "just Christ," "simply Christ," or in this case "a wonderful person." But without diminishing the "Truth" that was stated in the gospel of John, it is at least somewhat correct to say that what is quoted here is not what he meant.

And like Grace and so many other positive attributes of Christ and what he brings to us, this kind of "it's simply Christ" talk actually diminishes the fact of truth, grace, or whatever. How? By dismissing it as something observable and/or identifiable in our lives and replacing it with a magic ointment called "Christ." I know this sounds almost heretical or even blasphemous. But I am not saying that Christ does not provide grace, and truth, and many other things, or that he is not full of those attributes. But if we can't identify actual grace, or actual truth, etc., because we have ceased to even seek for those because we simply have them in this person and don't need to even be able to identify what they do for us or how they affect our living, then how are we sure that we actually have experienced grace? How do we know what truth is? By simply saying "it's Christ"?. They have become treated as a distraction from simply Christ. And in becoming this distraction, we no longer need them because we have Christ. Don't we?

Sort of like we don't need to repent anymore because we have already believed in Christ. There is now no more repentance. Actually, that was "unto salvation," not generally for our sins. Seems that the Lord's Prayer should make that clear. Oh, I forgot. That is a "low prayer." Or at least those parts are. We no longer need those parts. We are freed from the law of sin and death, so there is no need to worry about repenting for sin.

(If you think I am being a little sarcastic, you are reading me correctly.)

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Covert

Til this day, they sully John Ingalls, and refuse to acknowledge that destruction "PHILIP LEE" brought to the LR. I know the blendeds know what the core problem was in the eighties, they just put on a rendition to partake in damage control and propaganda. Yet this behavior of fortifying/perpetuating evil still plagues the LR, until this day. Probably the reason for the lack of growth, constant turmoils, and no true life/prosperity out side of 1984/INGSOC despotic parroting/absolute goonery- is simply because they lack grace/favor from God due to their ungodliness and constant contra-positives to the word of God.

Having met with several fellowships since leaving the local churches, it is apparent grace was an abstract concept in the local churches. Whereas since leaving I've learned grace is something you do. You can have disagreements and not hold it against them.
From 1989 to present, John was one brother who was sullied more than any other. In life there was opportunity to give grace to John, but that was too much to do. In death, it had only continued.
In the local churches you're bound to hear catch words such as "poison", "leaven", or "leprosy". Now? Now I believe there was a lot of projection going on.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Covert

I mean hey, just looking at Steve Isitts threads, look at all the interactions with the pinnacle of witness lee goonery. I mean look at all the interactions he has with various people in the Lords Recovery just give me disbelief and laughter of how people can so absorbed in goonery. Steve Isitt threads are probably one of the highest qualities in terms of exposing LR/Lee goonery. So to any lurkers on here, check out Indiana (Steve Isitt) profile and look at all those threads and his never ending battle with trying to give the truth to goons who dwell in lies and madness.

Retrospectively going back to 2009 I had one on one phone conversations with regional elders concerning Steve Isitt.
One regarding Steve's writings told me "we keep matters in house" meaning Steve shouldn't be writing and distributing on the internet, but coming to the brothers for fellowship. Telling Steve that, he got a good laugh out of since prior experiences of trying to get fellowship.....
Another elder told me whenever Ron and James come to the area for a conference. One of their discussion points with regional elders is "what is Steve Isitt up to?"

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

So my consideration from this was that even if Benson was ultimately a dyed-in-the-wool, drank the Kool-Aid believer, he did have some of what I would consider being a shepherdly concern for the flock — at least still at this time.

Three anecdotes from over the years, two heard from others, one I saw.

RG to Bill Mallon: "Here, we do what we are told". I believe that was in John Ingalls' book. Then, RG to poster Hope: "He doesn't tell you what he wants", referring to WL. I never got cues from RG that he was anything but absolute for the ministry and the minister. There was the one ground, followed by the one ministry, and the one minister - everything took a back seat to that singularity. Christ may or may not get fit in, depending on whether he could be made to fit in. If so, great. If not, well too bad. We got a church to run.

Personal observation from FTTA, I believe the trainer was PH. A trainee asked about shepherding a old widow with her orphaned grand-children, and PH said, "Don't waste your time". Again, scripture be bothered, e.g., James 1:27; Luke 14:14. Go get the good building material. It's all about the ministry. And look where RG and family are today, on the payroll. Look where PH is now. They knew where the bread got buttered in the LC, and it wasn't from shepherding.

[OBW]

Actually, there are many examples of statements made by Lee, and by those who basically did his bidding over the years. RG would definitely be among those. I think that putting each of those into a more definitive context will help solidify a lot related to the "practical" side of the organization behind the LSM and therefore the LCs.

Now your comment had context and was complete. But the others could use background, time, and more direct context. Those statements were not made in a vacuum or without something making them relevant.

I do admit that the random comment by Benson all those years ago does not entirely fit. But as it was not intended to evidence the errors of the leadership, that might not be a problem. That comment was (to me and in hindsight) a window into a man who did have more than personal gain as his motive. It does humanize them. But they also were capable of some callous actions and even lies to protect the system. Was it out of some misplaced duty to a belief system? Or the MOTA fantasy? Or their livelihood, as unglamorous as it was?

They really did not make huge sums of money. But it was the jobs they had for most of their lives. They might not be able to do anything else to support themselves at that/this point. Is it simply wanton striving for personal gain? Or have they become so tied to the system and they really believe it? Could it be that they are approaching a point where even if the average member would not engage in a classic suicide pact that these leaders might? I am not suggesting that it is likely. But I do wonder to what extent they are truly befuddled by the garlic of Nee and Lee and no longer recognize the actual words of scripture, or the anointing that John said we all have received. I think that would explain a lot. But even there we should have hope that others from among their ranks would awaken from their dream world and see the carnage that has followed the teachings of Nee and Lee from the beginning until now.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

I do admit that the random comment by Benson all those years ago does not entirely fit. But as it was not intended to evidence the errors of the leadership, that might not be a problem. That comment was (to me and in hindsight) a window into a man who did have more than personal gain as his motive. It does humanize them. But they also were capable of some callous actions and even lies to protect the system. Was it out of some misplaced duty to a belief system? Or the MOTA fantasy? Or their livelihood, as unglamorous as it was?

Among those late 1989 video messages Priestly Scribe uploaded to YouTube, Benson, Francis, and Gene were among the few 50+ years and older brothers who had not left, out front and still very supportive of WL no matter. I have considered OBW that what Benson told you was very much his sense. There is a human element to consider. When you get to be that age and having invested many years in the local churches. I imagine if serving full time, the thought process is where will I go (to meet or to work)?
There's a brother I knew from Bellevue that uttered the same words. Three of his children attended FTTA. He knows the history LSM has tried to hide for many years. Yet the thought process of leaving the local churches is "where will I go?" Naturally when most of your adult life is with a particular brand of Christian fellowship, that's all you know and probably feel it's too late for a change.

[OBW]

My sister actually went to the first FTT in Taiwan and was there when the blow-up with John I and others occurred back in the US. She came back early, left the church, and ended out in the same place we were at the time. She was there for 2 or 3 years, but the guy running the group for college and older singles found out that she had been in the LC and one time made some comment about her having a peculiar position on the Trinity. It was clearly meant as somewhat of a public shaming and challenge to reconsider. She left there not long after and ended up back in the LC for all these years since.

If she had not talked a little about the FTT (and it wasn't much) and said something about Joh Ingalls and a few others leaving, we would never have heard about it until years later (on the Bereans forum in 2005 or after).

I only mention this because it was almost the only insight into happenings in the LC from mid-1987 until 2005.

However, if some leader had not been so ready to pounce on anyone from what they thought was a cult, she might still be in a Bible church or something like that. And I mention this because it is evidence of what banging people on the head is good for — absolutely nothing. Even being so hard on StG's lingering taste for what many of us would call the (unlabeled) leeks and garlic of the LC.

Of course, you know that I think that the constant chasing after "open mic" meetings is also remnants of the smell of those leeks and garlic.

And since I cannot find every place in the past that I gave anyone a hard time concerning what I thought (and still think) is just trying to paint a rosy picture of the sinking of the SS LSM/LC, I am not sure how often I tried to make a serious look at the evidence v tried to just say it was so. I know I did not intend to do that (just say it is so), but I am sure I have done it.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Even being so hard on StG's lingering taste for what many of us would call the leeks and garlic of the LC.

I saw his quote by TA Sparks that Paul had the greatest portion of the NT writers, and objected, and strenuously. I may have gone overboard, reacting decades later, to so many LC meetings where ridiculous stuff like that got trotted out in front of the crowd, and nobody got to say, "Wait just a minute!"

Jesus clearly taught, "Don't try to be great. Be the least." In the LC we had the "great" of WL and WN etc. TAS saying this of Paul in the NT is rank error. We should never judge ourselves, or another's portion. And I'm being hard on TAS, nice guy though he apparently was, because he's being held up as a teacher in the flock. His errors then can stumble many.

Was I being unpleasant about it? Perhaps. Were others, as well? I can't say. But when error like that comes forth, what can we do? If a person just-saved says that, we may smile indulgently and say nothing. But a published, well-known author?

The internet is an easy place to communicate. Perhaps too easy. Perhaps that makes it very hard. So I don't disagree with your circumspection, it probably goes to the "wiser" part of your moniker. I'm hoping that I'm not just getting "older".

[OBW]

Hey. I wasn't pointing at anyone in particular. I admit that I didn't entirely give him a pass either. But I don't think that I gave him grief for merely disagreeing or not seeing what I see. And I did somewhat come to his defense on at least one occasion. I do not know or remember if you were among those giving him trouble.

Having said that, I see the problem with his (and others') clinging to things that we know either came from Nee/Lee/LSM/LC or were among a broader group of extreme practices and teachings that might not have been original, but were part and parcel to what came from that source. But that is not a basis for chastisement unless the forum is for the purpose of shaming and silencing those who willingly or even unwittingly continue to follow that erroneous way.

You seem to be trying to apologize. If you really need to, that's fine. I wasn't pointing at anyone in particular. Just suggesting that we all need to rethink why it is we (collectively) are here and what we intend to accomplish. If it resembles the stated purpose of the forum, then I believe we must be able to tolerate those from all perspectives; from those who post that are trying to out-and-out defend the LC, to those who are somewhere in a kind of LC-Lite, to those who are in limbo because they still want the LC in its ideal form (that never really existed anywhere but on paper), to those who are out and doing fine. And the tolerance needs to be for anything that does not actually violate a forum rule. Constant posting out of topic is a violation. Liking ways that are tied into the LC is not.

BTW. Tolerance does not mean that we don't say anything about what we think is wrong. But it should inform us as to how we approach what we say. Seek their understanding of the reason(s) for their position. Analyze that with a non-Lee lens for them. Provide an alternative understanding of what they are relying on. Do not expect reason to be magical. That does not mean simply stop. If their response indicates they did not understand what you wrote, try again from a different angle, or at least more clearly. Always understand that you may not get through. The fog/mist of the leeks and garlic of Lee may be too great for them to get through. Hopefully only for a while. We may never see them change. But it still may happen someday. And the same for someone watching that never registers or posts, and that we do not know anything about.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

You seem to be trying to apologize. If you really need to, that's fine.

My reaction to the quote was defensible, and I did defend it. But my defense may have lacked charity. And for that lack I apologise. It might have lacked grace. Charity and grace are the highest truths, moreso than logic trains or NT references or reasoned-out meanings of words or phrases.

At one point, a few years back, a drive-by lurker said that I was a "bully" (or was bullying). I was a bit taken aback. Me? Probably most who bully others don't look in the mirror and see that, but something else - otherwise they wouldn't behave as they do.

Of course I want separation from what once ruled my mind, and to this end make definitive declarations to further that separation. But at the same time thinking of others is arguably the highest aspiration, and we don't want to lay stumblings in front of others. It's entirely possible that I could have written more effectively - less offensively - in previous comments.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

At one point, a few years back, a drive-by lurker said that I was a "bully" (or was bullying). I was a bit taken aback. Me? Probably most who bully others don't look in the mirror and see that, but something else - otherwise they wouldn't behave as they do.

Sometimes I get lost trying to follow you, but a bully? I would never have thunk it.