Local Church Discussions  

Go Back   Local Church Discussions > Orthopraxy - Christian Practice

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-27-2021, 09:38 AM   #1
OBW
Member
 
OBW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,384
Default Binding or Liberating

I don’t want to clutter the devotional thread that Sons to Glory has created, so I will have some discussion here. This relates to the post on April 25, 2021 (#46 in the thread). He quotes a passage from Hannah W. Smith which is repeated here for reference.
Quote:
APRIL 25 BINDING OR LIBERATING

There are two kinds of Christian experience: one is an experience of bondage and the other an experience of liberty. In the first case, the soul is controlled by a stern sense of duty and obeys the law of God, either from fear of punishment or from expectation of wages. In the other case, the controlling power is an inward life principle that works out, by the force of its own motions or instincts, the will of the divine Lifegiver, without fear of punishment or hope of reward. In the first, the Christian is a servant and works for hire; in the second, he is a son and works for love.

There ought not to be this contrast in the experience of Christians, but as we have to deal with what is, rather than with what ought to be, we cannot shut our eyes to the bondage in which so many of God's children spend a large part of their Christian lives. The reason for this bondage and the remedy for it are not difficult to find: the reason is legality, and the remedy is Christ.

Nowhere do we find those two forms or stages of Christian life more fully developed and contrasted than in the Epistle to the Galatians. The Galatian Christians had begun in the right attitude; they had entered into the spiritual life by the "hearing of faith" (Gal. 3:5). But when it came to a question of how they were to live in this life, they had changed their ground. They had sought to substitute works for faith. Having "begun in the Spirit," they were now seeking to be "made perfect by the flesh" (Gal. 3:3). They had, in short, descended in their Christian living, from the plane of life to the plane of law. (SEC, 157-58)
Before I start, please note that I am not asserting that Ms. Smith is in any way doing what I will speak concerning.

My observation over many years is that talk about bondage and the law when in reference to Christians is sometimes given from a perspective of inner bondage or liberty, and sometimes from an outward perception based on some expectation of what liberty should look like. And further, the talk about “bondage to the law” is made so broad as to go beyond what Paul was talking about in the passage referenced (Gal. 3).

What are the “works” that Ms/ Smith refers to in her third paragraph? Does she (or even just the average reader) have a definition of what that is that is beyond what Paul meant? Was Paul only talking about becoming hoodwinked by the Judaizers into following the ritual law of the OT (circumcision, dietary laws, etc.), or was he talking about anything that might be argued to be a law that was understood to be obeyed?

I think you can clearly include the ritualistic laws that were brought by the Judaizers. It is probably this very instance that set in motion Paul’s complaint to the apostles in Jerusalem that we call the Jerusalem council in Acts 15.

But was Paul saying that they should not obey so many other things stated in the OT and NT? Especially what Christ commanded? Seems that a lot of it could outwardly be called “works.”

And when I get to Gal 5, it is clear that what Paul is talking about is the ritual law. He never suggested that serving diligently in a soup kitchen was part of the law that was of no value.

My problem is that too much of modern Christian thought — not just from the LC or inner-life teachers, but even major Evangelical teachers — dismisses anything that is not outwardly “liberty.” No ties to forms or works of any kind. Yet Matthew’s gospel ends with Christ commanding his yet-to-be followers to be taught to obey. Not just experience liberty. Paul said we technically have liberty to sin. It is an easy extension then to say that we also have liberty to not obey. But just as Paul asked whether we should then go ahead and sin, he said “By No Means!” I would suggest that it is the same for obedience. Even to those things that are works.

It is only through our works that we bear the image of God to the world. When it comes to obedience, there is no such thing as “just works” or any works that we should consider a burden or bondage to engage in. Instead, we should understand them as the evidence that we actually have faith. (James 2)
__________________
Mike
I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge
OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel
OBW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2021, 04:21 PM   #2
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 2,617
Default Re: Binding or Liberating

Mike, I thought to also post the next day from that Hannah devotional, as it is taken from the same book of hers ("The Christian's Secret of a Happy Life") and appears to come right afterwards. This particular read really impressed me, and I'm thinking of sharing it with the Thursday breakfast bros here.

Quote:
APRIL 26 BEING NOT DOING

We are continually tempted to forget that it is not what people do
that is the vital matter but rather what they are. In Christ Jesus neither
our performance of or omission of legal observances avails anything;
what counts is that we are "a new creature" (2 Cor. 5:17). God is a
great deal more concerned about our really being "new creatures"
than about anything else, because He knows that if we are right in our
inner being, we will certainly do right outwardly. We may, in fact,
sometimes even do right without being right at all, but no doing of
this kind has any vitality in it or is of any real account. The essential
thing, therefore, is character; doing is valuable only as it is an
indication of being.

Paul was grieved with the Galatian Christians because they
seemed to have lost sight of the truth that the inward life, the "new
creature," was the only thing that availed. They had begun on this
plane, but they had "fallen from grace" (Gal. 5:4) to a lower plane,
where the "oldness of the letter" was put in place of the "newness of
the spirit" (Rom. 7:6). Paul wrote, "Christ is become of no effect unto
you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from
grace" (Gal. 5:4).

This passage is the only one in which the expression "fallen
from grace" is used in the New Testament. It means that the
Galatians had made the mistake of thinking that something else
beside Christ was necessary for their right Christian living. Paul warned
them to remember that Christ alone was enough, and that nothing
else must be added. (SEC, 159)
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS!
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2021, 03:09 PM   #3
OBW
Member
 
OBW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,384
Default Re: Binding or Liberating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
Mike, I thought to also post the next day from that Hannah devotional, . . .
Yes, and I saw it later.

And at some level, it seems to underscore the problems I mentioned in my critique of the prior one. While "who we are" is of significant importance to the extent that we are talking about being among the redeemed, what we are, which includes what we do is not unimportant. It does not qualify us, but it is at least an important part of our purpose.

I know that it is popular to quote that thing by an old theologian that says something like "our purpose is to praise the Lord" (in many more words and more eloquently), but when I read Gen 1 and read "in our image," somehow I don't think that just being declared something (righteous, sinless, etc.,) is accomplishing that aspect of our creation. Just because God sees it doesn't mean that the world sees it. They see what we are in flesh and blood here on earth. Yes, the one living in us is greater than the one living in the world. But it has to be demonstrated to the world for it to be the image of God.

And Paul didn't really say that only the "inward life . . . availed." He just said that being circumcised and other rituals of the OT law was not it. And this is what is missing in the inner-life teachings of so many even if they are not also teaching the nonsense that Nee and Lee did. They are too enamored with the inside as being everything and the outside as not really important.

In my book, if God in Christ commanded action, then there is no excuse for avoiding it. Not even a need for "more dispensing" (as Lee so fondly said). And if a purpose for our being on earth is to bear the image of God, then arguing against works should be a non-starter. But for the inner-life crowd, of which Nee, Lee, and most of the LC and spin-offs are legitimately labeled, works are constantly argued against. Instead, it is all about what is inside that only God can see, or meetings that are too often primarily focused on me and my feelings.
__________________
Mike
I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge
OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel
OBW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2021, 05:16 PM   #4
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,631
Default Re: Binding or Liberating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna Smith
There are two kinds of Christian experience: one is an experience of bondage and the other an experience of liberty. In the first case, the soul is controlled by a stern sense of duty and obeys the law of God, either from fear of punishment or from expectation of wages. In the other case, the controlling power is an inward life principle that works out, by the force of its own motions or instincts, the will of the divine Lifegiver, without fear of punishment or hope of reward. In the first, the Christian is a servant and works for hire; in the second, he is a son and works for love.
One only need apply this to see how absurd it becomes.

Jesus: And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.

Inner Life Acolyte: No, I don't give cups of cold water to anyone - that's just a dead work. I instead focus on the controlling power of the inward life principle, working Christ out in me. Also, I don't do the fear of punishment or hope of reward stuff. That's in the legal realm. I'm all about love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna Smith
We are continually tempted to forget that it is not what people do that is the vital matter but rather what they are. In Christ Jesus neither our performance of or omission of legal observances avails anything; what counts is that we are "a new creature" (2 Cor. 5:17). God is a great deal more concerned about our really being "new creatures" than about anything else, because He knows that if we are right in our inner being, we will certainly do right outwardly. We may, in fact, sometimes even do right without being right at all, but no doing of this kind has any vitality in it or is of any real account. The essential thing, therefore, is character; doing is valuable only as it is an indication of being.

Paul was grieved with the Galatian Christians because they seemed to have lost sight of the truth that the inward life, the "new creature," was the only thing that availed.
Jesus: Which one of these loved his neighbour?
Lawyer: The one who showed mercy.
Jesus: Then go, and do likewise.

Inner Life Acolyte: But Jesus, I'm not about doing, but about being. I don't want to get caught in legalism, every time I see some poor wretch by the side of the road I have to engage in 'performance Christianity' and pull over and help? I'm not here for that - I'm here to be the new creation!

Jesus was the New Creature, the Second Adam. And he manifested it, he didn't just talk about it. When John's disciples came to query him on his status and position, i.e. what he was, he told them to tell John what they saw. He didn't give claims, but works.

Our works are nothing. But we see him working, and by faith we follow. And it becomes his faith, the "faith of Christ", that works in us. It is no longer I but Christ in me who lives, and this Christ works.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2021, 02:43 PM   #5
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 2,617
Default Re: Binding or Liberating

I read a couple verses this morning in Daily Light and thought of this discussion:

"When Christ Who is our life appears" (Col 3:4)

"When He comes, in that day, to be glorified in His saints." (2 Thes 1:10)

Then I read in the T. Austin Sparks devotional the piece I copied below. So of course, there should be works, and works should flow out of the new nature He has birthed in us. "Faith without works is dead," but isn't the inverse also true? That's all I think Hannah and Sparks are saying here - the basis has to be the new life in us.

So the critique of the so-called "Inner life" position doesn't seem to hold merit and appears to me as a mischaracterization. Both works and faith are taught in scripture. Hey, as humans we tend to gravitate too much to one extreme or the other, when both are needed. But let's be clear, without the born-again, inner life of Christ working through us, it's just folly and some sort of well-meaning entertainment, right?

Practically, I don't see this as sitting around on our hands, for instance, when we see something that needs attended to and just waiting for His Spirit to move. I see it as saying to Him, "Lord, here's a need. Work through me and supply me to handle this in Your strength." Then move in faith that He will be my supply.

Quote:
April 30
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." (Philippians 4: 13)

What is abiding? Abiding in Christ, as we have often said, is the
Opposite of abiding In ourselves. To abide in ourselves is simply to try to
do this living, and this working for the Lord, of ourselves; asking the Lord
to help us to do it, instead of recognizing that a Life wholly pleasing to
God has been lived and that faith appropriates that accomplishment in
Christ. Abiding in Christ is simply doing everything, meeting everything as
out from Christ. It is a sure ground. There is no need for question and
reasoning: "Can it be done? Can 1 do it?" Or, "1 am not sure about it." It is
done. The Lord Jesus has met everything that you or ] will meet, and in all
things has done what is needful. That is available to faith, and faith says,
"Well, in myself the thing would be absurd, and to attempt the thing would
be ridiculous; as to myself it would be folly to contemplate it. But it can be
done, because it is done; I can meet this demand, and I can stand up to that
one; I can go through with this, and I can do that - 'I can do all things ("all"
is a big word) through Christ, which strengtheneth me. ", It is what Christ
is as our secret source of strength, of sustenance, of nourishment. This is a
school, and we learn this lesson in a progressive way ....

We have to learn how to come back to His fullness and we learn
progressively, step by step, like little children, first of all learning to walk
and to talk. Like them we are confronted with things which we have never
done or even attempted before, things which are all new and strange; a new
world, sometimes a very tenible world. The contemplation of taking his
first step to a little child is a most terrifying proposition. You and I are
brought into this realm of faith, wherein the simplest thing at the beginning,
the taking of a first step, is sometimes fraught with horror for us. But there
are arms stretched out, and those arms now represent for us the
accomplishment of what is required of us, the thing is done. The strength is
there, available for the matter in hand, a strength which has been proved.
Recognizing those arms and trusting, taking the step, we learn to walk by
Christ, to live by Christ; and the next time we shall be able to go a bit
further. Each time capacity is being enlarged and we are coming to a fuller
measure of maturity.

From: The Risen Lord and the Things Which Cannot be Shaken - Chapter 7
www.austin-sparks.netfenglish/booksf002222.html
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS!
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2021, 06:44 PM   #6
OBW
Member
 
OBW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,384
Default Re: Binding or Liberating

You want to discuss abiding? Let us contemplate the grapevine (as the ridiculously long song in the old hymnal starts).

Branches are part of a grapevine. They are not optional items. They do not come and go as they please. The vine has branches. During the growing season, the roots supply nutrients to the rest of the plant, It moves up the system to the parts that use them to extend their own length, and other things, including producing grapes. Except during the winter when nothing is happening, at no time are the branches simply taking in nutrients and doing nothing. We may not be able to discern what is happening because it is not fast or even external. But it is happening. If the branch ever just stops doing, it is probably a sign that it is going to die. Or is in some way ill or diseased.

Based on this understanding, abiding is to be connected and doing what is expected.

And when it comes to fruit, another branch is not fruit. Grapes are the fruit.

And while I know that this appears to counter my arguments about over-milking metaphors, in the NT there are several lists of fruit supplied and none of them resemble the act of preaching the gospel. I am not dissing preaching the gospel, but that is not identified as fruit in any place. Not even in the metaphor of the vine and the branches where branches do not bear more branches as fruit, but actual fruit in the form of grapes.

And when talking about abiding (in the terms of a vine and its branches), sitting and basking in, or soak-up anything that is not immediately turned into activity/work/effort is not part of the discussion.

Unless it is coming from an inner-life teacher. And Lee took it to extremes when he starting teaching to "wait for the dispensing." And while other inner-life teachers may not go at it as strongly as Lee, they generally do it. They go through letters like the two to Corinth, to Galatia, to Colossae, to Phillipi, etc., and focus almost entirely on the spiritual things that Paul used to underpin the fact that they did not need to rely on repeating the Jewish laws. Or for the purpose of making very different persons into one body in Christ. Or why they should not think that one teacher is better than another and fight about it. Or think their gift is better and that they needed to display it in every meeting. And so on.

But the inner-life teachers say that those spiritual things are what should be focused on. That we should consider that we are crucified with Christ, or even work on being crucified with Christ. That it is all about what we are deemed and not what we actually are. They may say that we need to put to death some evil deeds in ourselves. But is a spiritual putting to death, not a practical work to avoid those things. They like to say that Christ does it all and we just benefit from that. They may hint at the struggle that we have, but they are more likely to say that it simply "turns around" like snapping our fingers if we get our head right (in different words).

So what was that third part of the so-called Great Commission? Something about teaching them to obey "all that I have commanded." And yet when you listen to the inner-life teachers, there is no room for acting on a commandment. They are quick to point to the ridiculous extremes of old-school fundamentalism's "do" and "don't" lists and say that is not what it is about. Maybe those lists are correctly ridiculous. But what about righteous living? What about acts of justice (i.e. care for widows, orphans, the alien among us, etc.). What about living as salt and light? Are those cast aside because it's now all about inner life and Christ simply does it all? Where does it say that? Where are we absolved from having works that demonstrate that we actually have faith?

I believe that the correct way to understand all those lists of characteristics of Christ and the application of those to us is that they are true. Paul brings them up as underlying facts that do not need to be drummed up. And because of them, we have what it takes to do what is required. Equally love the Jew and Greek; rich, poor, and slave; and so on. Reject the pursuit of OT ritual and dietary laws to obtain or certify your salvation. Live righteously toward everyone. He didn't tell us those things so we would turn inward and consider our life to be about doing a bunch of spiritual things as much of the time as possible.

If our purpose was (and still is) to bear the image of God, then spending all our time shirking the "works" of righteousness and justice (what shows to the world the image of God) and instead just contemplating, and going to more meetings where we get ourselves excited about more of that is missing the point. It is not to worship God constantly. The example in the garden would seem to hint against that. Having that daily "meeting" with God, setting our minds on the Spirit, and then walking out into the world to fulfill the righteous requirement of the law is the mark.
__________________
Mike
I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge
OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel
OBW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2021, 10:11 PM   #7
HERn
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 968
Default Re: Binding or Liberating

"I believe that the correct way to understand all those lists of characteristics of Christ and the application of those to us is that they are true. Paul brings them up as underlying facts that do not need to be drummed up. And because of them, we have what it takes to do what is required. Equally love the Jew and Greek; rich, poor, and slave; and so on. Reject the pursuit of OT ritual and dietary laws to obtain or certify your salvation. Live righteously toward everyone. He didn't tell us those things so we would turn inward and consider our life to be about doing a bunch of spiritual things as much of the time as possible.

If our purpose was (and still is) to bear the image of God, then spending all our time shirking the "works" of righteousness and justice (what shows to the world the image of God) and instead just contemplating, and going to more meetings where we get ourselves excited about more of that is missing the point. It is not to worship God constantly. The example in the garden would seem to hint against that. Having that daily "meeting" with God, setting our minds on the Spirit, and then walking out into the world to fulfill the righteous requirement of the law is the mark."


I think this is a great summary of the gospel of Jesus Christ and how to live it out! Thanks OBW for your effort in thinking about and communicating these thoughts.
__________________
Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version)
Look to Jesus not The Ministry.
HERn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2021, 08:09 AM   #8
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 2,617
Default Re: Binding or Liberating

Thank you OBW and HERn - good discussion and things to consider. In reading these last two posts I'm reminded of something a brother said recently about putting off the old man and putting on the new man. And while much of his speaking was regarding Christ in you (aka inner life), he brought up 2 Tim 2:22 & Gal 5:13 about fleeing youthful lusts and giving no occasion to the flesh. The example he gave was about watching TV. He basically said, "If you know that you'll get all worked up in your flesh when you turn on the TV, then just don't turn it on! Be like Joseph with Potifer's wife and just get the heck outa there!" In other words, don't stop and pray and consider when in such situations, just act. And this is actually an act of faith which, I'm sure, God is fully pleased with and honors.

So there's nothing wrong with praying and giving something to Him and asking for His supply in a matter. But I certainly see where that can be taken too far as well. I think at one point in my Christian walk I was way over on the hyper-spiritual side, waiting for Him to do everything. But slowly I'm seeing that He actually has done in, and now it is (as OBW points out) just a matter of abiding.

The renewing of the mind seems like such a slow processes, doesn't it? But I think in "that day" when we look back over our lives fully in the light, we'll see everything happened right on (His) schedule!
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS!
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:11 AM.


3.8.9