I don't understand this forum

[ExChurchKid]

Hey everyone,

I joined this forum expecting a safe place to express my discontent with being raised in the Recovery. I've posted a couple of threads, and skimmed through a few others I found interesting and wanted to comment on. But I...just can't get past the assumption that this forum seems to have that everyone is a Christian. In many cases, people's words sound like they're coming from someone in the LC. The terminology, tone, etc., are all so similar to me. And assertions that God loves you, and we're all winners in Christ or whatever, get inserted at uncalled for times when they do not contribute to the discussion, which is exactly what happens in the Recovery. In addition, why does leaving the LC mean we have to be Christian? Why can't we be agnostic, or even atheist? Or perhaps just be private about our own private faith that doesn't really fit into a category? I actually do have questions about God that I'd like to ask, but I'm afraid to. Part of me wants to go to all of these threads that have a poster who seems to assume everyone believes in the same loving Christian God, and tell them to stop! But I don't want to start a flame war. So what do I do? Do I just bow out of this forum? I found a couple of friends here, so I don't think it would be all for nothing. And the mods seem great. I honestly think they're the only reason this forum hasn't completely fallen apart. But the underlying religiousness...I just can't. Not that there's anything wrong with religion. But there's nothing wrong with no religion either! Knowing that most people on here are Christian, I've tried to be respectful of things they might not like. As in, although I cuss in normal life, I don't do it here. I try not to write things that might be controversial to someone who very much believes in God, unless it's relevant to the conversation. But it just seems like the very religious people on here don't extend the same courtesy. I don't understand it. Am I, as an agnostic, in the minority, and I should just go elsewhere? Or should religious people learn to not assume that just because someone was in the Recovery, they believe the same things as the religious person? Personally, I think it's the latter, but that's what I struggle with in regards to very religious people. There have been some very reasonable comments about faith on here that I'd like to explore further, but on the other hand, there have been many comments that make me think being Christian in general is no different from being in the LCs. Why do I often feel like I'm being treated like there's something wrong with me, or my ideas are less true and more vitriolic, because I'm not certain in my faith, or I don't want to talk about it, or have other people's faith shoved in my face? The Recovery is very hypocritical because they claim love and kindness, but instead give judgment and shame. Although I haven't been on this forum long, I've felt the same thing here in certain cases. Many of the very people who preach love and kindness are the ones who refuse to stop inserting their religious beliefs into my non-religious conversations. That is not loving, nor kind. I do not go around this forum declaring God isn't real, or God is spiteful, or many of the other things I sometimes feel, but other posters go around declaring that Christ is in all of us and God led us all out of the LCs. Why can they not be respectful of my beliefs, as I am of theirs?

I'm not sure where I was going with this. Mostly just a rant I guess, and perhaps a litmus test to see if the help on this forum is worth the hurt and frustration. Thanks for reading. Please be sensitive in your responses.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Hey everyone,


I joined this forum expecting a safe place to express my discontent with being raised in the Recovery. I've posted a couple of threads, and skimmed through a few others I found interesting and wanted to comment on. But I...just can't get past the assumption that this forum seems to have that everyone is a Christian. In many cases, people's words sound like they're coming from someone in the LC. The terminology, tone, etc., are all so similar to me. And assertions that God loves you, and we're all winners in Christ or whatever, get inserted at uncalled for times when they do not contribute to the discussion, which is exactly what happens in the Recovery. In addition, why does leaving the LC mean we have to be Christian? Why can't we be agnostic, or even atheist? Or perhaps just be private about our own private faith that doesn't really fit into a category? I actually do have questions about God that I'd like to ask, but I'm afraid to. Part of me wants to go to all of these threads that have a poster who seems to assume everyone believes in the same loving Christian God, and tell them to stop! But I don't want to start a flame war. So what do I do? Do I just bow out of this forum? I found a couple of friends here, so I don't think it would be all for nothing. And the mods seem great. I honestly think they're the only reason this forum hasn't completely fallen apart. But the underlying religiousness...I just can't. Not that there's anything wrong with religion. But there's nothing wrong with no religion either! Knowing that most people on here are Christian, I've tried to be respectful of things they might not like. As in, although I cuss in normal life, I don't do it here. I try not to write things that might be controversial to someone who very much believes in God, unless it's relevant to the conversation. But it just seems like the very religious people on here don't extend the same courtesy. I don't understand it. Am I, as an agnostic, in the minority, and I should just go elsewhere? Or should religious people learn to not assume that just because someone was in the Recovery, they believe the same things as the religious person? Personally, I think it's the latter, but that's what I struggle with in regards to very religious people. There have been some very reasonable comments about faith on here that I'd like to explore further, but on the other hand, there have been many comments that make me think being Christian in general is no different from being in the LCs. Why do I often feel like I'm being treated like there's something wrong with me, or my ideas are less true and more vitriolic, because I'm not certain in my faith, or I don't want to talk about it, or have other people's faith shoved in my face? The Recovery is very hypocritical because they claim love and kindness, but instead give judgment and shame. Although I haven't been on this forum long, I've felt the same thing here in certain cases. Many of the very people who preach love and kindness are the ones who refuse to stop inserting their religious beliefs into my non-religious conversations. That is not loving, nor kind. I do not go around this forum declaring God isn't real, or God is spiteful, or many of the other things I sometimes feel, but other posters go around declaring that Christ is in all of us and God led us all out of the LCs. Why can they not be respectful of my beliefs, as I am of theirs?



I'm not sure where I was going with this. Mostly just a rant I guess, and perhaps a litmus test to see if the help on this forum is worth the hurt and frustration. Thanks for reading. Please be sensitive in your responses.

Well XCK you won't catch me God smacking you. I hate that too. I have to deal with that with my Southern Baptist extended family.

I've made some progress here and there, particularly with anti gay towards their children that are gay. That's not easy when it's against the Bible.

Blessings sister. Let's hope we can have civil discussions. I don't know. They don't like me much either.

And I think SerenityLives is taking a break from getting beat up for being a church kid that's in a same sex marriage. I miss her.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds like you have been seriously wrong by this forum and the LC.

Well, you did call me vitriolic and said I would get banned, for asserting my agnosticism while requesting to stop being preached to.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well XCK you won't catch me God smacking you. I hate that too. I have to deal with that with my Southern Baptist extended family.

I've made some progress here and there, particularly with anti gay towards their children that are gay. That's not easy when it's against the Bible.

Blessings sister. Let's hope we can have civil discussions. I don't know. They don't like me much either.

And I think SerenityLives is taking a break from getting beat up for being a church kid that's in a same sex marriage. I miss her.

Thanks for the understanding. It seems I'm not the only one who feels this forum can be too religious.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Thanks for the understanding. It seems I'm not the only one who feels this forum can be too religious.

I have a friend who has pictures of us in 2nd grade. He and 10 others came into the LC together. He eventually became an elder. He's now a native american shaman.

And another friend I've been close with since the Kangas lead elder days in Detroit. Last time I was with her she said she's now a Hindu.

And another friend from before the LC, who I brought in, that now is a nothing. She tells me that delving into all this Bible stuff will just end up driving me crazy. She might be onto something. I do see evidence that the Bible does drive people crazy.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by awareness

I have a friend who has pictures of us in 2nd grade. He and 10 others came into the LC together. He eventually became an elder. He's now a native american shaman.

And another friend I've been close with since the Kangas lead elder days in Detroit. Last time I was with her she said she's now a Hindu.

And another friend from before the LC, who I brought in, that now is a nothing. She tells me that delving into all this Bible stuff will just end up driving me crazy. She might be onto something. I do see evidence that the Bible does drive people crazy.

Thanks, awareness. I'm done with this forum now (see the libel suit thread). I'm glad I met you and SerenityLives, and I look forward to keeping in touch with you both.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Thanks, awareness. I'm done with this forum now (see the libel suit thread). I'm glad I met you and SerenityLives, and I look forward to keeping in touch with you both.

Please do. And sorry it feels like they don't welcome you on LCD. But AltVs is not completely like the main upper forum. Some of us don't push religion.

[ExChurchKid]

Well, awareness, I guess I decided to come back for another shot at this forum. I linked to this thread from the libel suit current disaster of a thread, so perhaps others will see the issues I'm having.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Thanks for the understanding. It seems I'm not the only one who feels this forum can be too religious.

XKid, it might be that you are trying to play fútbol, and others are into footbal. Rule, strategy, and teams are not the same in both games. It’s probably not a good idea to try to mix the two sports.

I was in the LC in 70’s-80’s and have two older step-kids who went through what was then kind of mild compared to what I read LC kids ( and members) go through today. When we get together, inevitably one or the other will start talking about that ancient history and about people in the LC at that time. Both have their own families and both are not outwardly religious, yet hold belief in God.

I can’t imagine what kids after late 80’s must go through or been through in that cult. Back in my time there, there were some in my LC that were zealots for LSM, but a lot were more interested in decent Christian practice and tried to relate that to kids. Now it seems from what I read, the coercion to be “sold out” to LSM is consuming. I can see why people like yourself would have a large rejection to anything Christian and even have a phobia if it is brought up. What the LC/LSM has become is totally cult like, and it doesn’t seem present members are of the mindset that something is terribly wrong.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

XKid, it might be that you are trying to play fútbol, and others are into footbal. Rule, strategy, and teams are not the same in both games. It’s probably not a good idea to try to mix the two sports.

I get what you mean, as in soccer vs. football. But what do you mean in regards to me thinking this forum is sometimes too religious?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

this forum is sometimes too religious?

But too religious in one way. People that are exLCer's but are now Buddhist, or Hindu, or of Pagan religions, agnostic or atheist, will be discouraged out, or banned. Wanna get along, be a evangelical.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by awareness

But too religious in one way. People that are exLCer's but are now Buddhist, or Hindu, or of Pagan religions, agnostic or atheist, will be discouraged out, or banned. Wanna get along, be a evangelical.

Hail All-Father, Wise Warrior, One-Eyed Wanderer, come sit at my fire!

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

I get what you mean, as in soccer vs. football. But what do you mean in regards to me thinking this forum is sometimes too religious?

Some people on the main site are very doctrinal in their orthodoxy bend. I’m probably very one sided on my own own opinion of scripture. Each person has their own ideas to bring to the table to discuss. The moderator allows some topics but not others because of his feelings. If you are going to enter the game, realize what game is being played. The alt site is more like a pick- up basketball court game. The main site has its own rules. Hopefully the moderator will realize he cuts off and turns off some of the people he wants to “help”.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Some people on the main site are very doctrinal in their orthodoxy bend. I’m probably very one sided on my own own opinion of scripture. Each person has their own ideas to bring to the table to discuss. The moderator allows some topics but not others because of his feelings. If you are going to enter the game, realize what game is being played. The alt site is more like a pick- up basketball court game. The main site has its own rules. Hopefully the moderator will realize he cuts off and turns off some of the people he wants to “help”.

Ah, I get it. Thanks for the input. I thought the main forum was supposed to be for ex-LCers, Christian or not. I think at least some of the mods see it that way, and it's just that some of the commenters don't. I just wish perhaps the mods would do more to push the commenters in the other direction (and don't get me wrong, they definitely discouraged the preachy attitude that I got on my main forum threads, and I really appreciate them for that), towards acceptance of all post-LC beliefs. Do you post on the main forum at all, or do you just stick to alt views?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Ah, I get it. Thanks for the input. I thought the main forum was supposed to be for ex-LCers, Christian or not. I think at least some of the mods see it that way, and it's just that some of the commenters don't. I just wish perhaps the mods would do more to push the commenters in the other direction (and don't get me wrong, they definitely discouraged the preachy attitude that I got on my main forum threads, and I really appreciate them for that), towards acceptance of all post-LC beliefs. Do you post on the main forum at all, or do you just stick to alt views?

Honestly, I’ve been sticking to Alt Views until you came along
The emoji is supposed to be me flying to the upoerchamber.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Honestly, I’ve been sticking to Alt Views until you came along
The emoji is supposed to be me flying to the upoerchamber.

The upper chamber and I don't get along. Seems I might upset the children ... or I'm trying to feed meat to milk drinkers. I don't know.

I can be iconoclastic it times. I'm a significant reason AltVs was created ... me and zeek. But it was created by the owner and administrator, Untohim. He had to have a dungeon for us, to get us away from the upper chamber. haha.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by awareness

The upper chamber and I don't get along. Seems I might upset the children ... or I'm trying to feed meat to milk drinkers. I don't know.

I can be iconoclastic it times. I'm a significant reason AltVs was created ... me and zeek. But it was created by the owner and administrator, Untohim. He had to have a dungeon for us, to get us away from the upper chamber. haha.

Lol you guys are funny. I honestly don't get why jigsaw and can't seem to get over the whole "guys stop being off-topic" thing in my libel suit thread. Shout out to SerenityLives for trying to get it back on track, in spite of jigsaw's arguing about why it's okay for Ohio to call us a Nazi and why I provoked Ohio with our previous exchanges.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

I actually do have questions about God that I'd like to ask, but I'm afraid to.

This is probably not a good forum to ask questions about God. If you ask, you will open up about 15 competing monologues. It really doesn't work very well. There is little discussion. Mostly people talking past each other.

(this is of course merely my opinion, but I've read a few posts)

This forum exists for discussion of the LC experience, and the post-LC experience. For everyone! Nobody is supposed to have the 'right' answer, including the Christians. Our Christian journey is supposed to include the assumption "think that the other person is better than you are" (Apostle Paul, to the [Greek] Philippians [2:6]), and "those who want to be great should be the least" (Rabbi Jesus, teaching the [Jewish] disciples [Matt 20:26]). Humility and open-ness are supposed to be our bedrock.

Witness Lee and Watchman Nee never got that simple lesson, and look how many lives they ruined. Ruth Lee, who was Watchman Nee's closest co-worker (yes, a woman, look it up) was so disgusted by his repeated dalliances that she eventually gave up and became a militant atheist. That's what happens when you put your eggs in the wrong basket. Only Jesus, in the NT, text, is held as 'perfected forever'. The rest of us, including the religious, are imperfect and thereby precluded from putting on airs and/or judging one another. Including... dun-da-dun... non-believers! Hey! (Or, believers who don't quiiiiiiiite think the way we do...)

Your journey is just as real to you, as mine is to me. Nothing in my experience, or faith, changes that. And my experience, and faith, tell me that perhaps, just perhaps, you are 'more advanced' along 'your' path than I am on 'mine', and whether or not this is actually so, I should act that way, humble myself, and learn.

I've been waiting 10 years for folks like yourself and Trapped and SerenityLives to show up. You all, to me, are voices from the voiceless generation, whose lives were stolen at birth, and were told from Day 1 that their soul was supposed to be a copy of someone else's, and not their own. They were supposed to open their mouths and the "ministry" would come out. I saw kids who couldn't even speak, being coaxed to "call on the Lord" complete with fist pump. (not kidding, I saw it) So of course you all are going to rant some! I would kick the dust and yell some, too! This forum, like your journey itself, is yours to make of it what you will.

Out of the slew of LC 'church kids' that I knew once, very few are still meeting in the LC. The vast majority are gone. A few are 'serving the ministry', a few migrated and meet elsewhere, but I bet 80% of them no longer meet anywhere, and most of them think like you do. "Forget God. He's been trying to drag me into a dark hole for 1,000 years" or some such.

So, yell if you need to. It's okay. I've ranted a time or two myself.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

And my experience, and faith, tell me that perhaps, just perhaps, you are 'more advanced' along the path than I am! Whether or not this is so, I should act that way, humble myself, and learn.

I actually think that those young millennial girls are smarter than me. I wish I was as smart as they are when I was their age. I would have left the church much earlier.

Originally Posted by aron

This forum, like your journey itself, is yours to make of it what you will.

Amen girls, and any of the rest, give us hell. Boldly tell us what you think of God.

[ExChurchKid]

Aron and awareness, you guys are great. Thanks for all the encouragement. And aron, everything you wrote rings very true. I get what you mean about being talked at by 15 different people...maybe I sound like a broken record, but why?? Why are religious people like this so often?? And how is it different than being talked at in the LC??



P.S. Totally unrelated, but I've been wondering, is your username supposed to be Aaron without the extra A, or is it like the Pokemon Aron? Aron is a pretty rad Pokemon. For the confused https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w..._(Pok%C3%A9mon)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Aron and awareness, you guys are great. Thanks for all the encouragement. And aron, everything you wrote rings very true. I get what you mean about being talked at by 15 different people...maybe I sound like a broken record, but why?? Why are religious people like this so often?? And how is it different than being talked at in the LC??

It's like LC 2.0. Why do I subject myself to it? I left the LC long long ago. I must be masochistic. At least it's on the internet, and not like going to the churches around here. Plus, they're full of covid.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Aron and awareness, you guys are great. Thanks for all the encouragement. And aron, everything you wrote rings very true. I get what you mean about being talked at by 15 different people...maybe I sound like a broken record, but why?? Why are religious people like this so often?? And how is it different than being talked at in the LC??



P.S. Totally unrelated, but I've been wondering, is your username supposed to be Aaron without the extra A, or is it like the Pokemon Aron? Aron is a pretty rad Pokemon. For the confused https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/w..._(Pok%C3%A9mon)

Are you a Pokemon fan? My spirit Pokemon is Horsea.
Religion can make people crazy, it's not you, it's them who are the broken record replaying "Praise the Lord!"

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by awareness

It's like LC 2.0. Why do I subject myself to it? I left the LC long long ago. I must be masochistic. At least it's on the internet, and not like going to the churches around here. Plus, they're full of covid.

I think it's human nature to seek something familiar even if it's may not be the best for us. That's why children who were abused tend to fall in love with abusers when they get older. I guess our brains are wired that way. Sometimes, I still catch an LC hymn playing in my head in repeat when I need to comfort myself.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Aron is a pretty rad Pokemon.

That's nice to know, but it was just a random moment frozen in time. I'm still waiting for my real name.

I feel like life is a discovery of who we are. A lot of that is discovering who we are not. This forum has helped me discover who I'm not, but very interesting - I keep peeling back the layers. Today is different from yesterday, etc.

One thing that I know is that self-actualization is related to how much others self-actualize when they are with you. If you dominate others it shows how little 'you' there actually is. If you let others blossom and grow, it shows that you are in a good place.

Christianity has unfortunately spawned a lot of Krazy Kults. I personally still believe in God, simply because a universe with "God" in it (conceptually speaking, of course) is preferable to one without God. Somehow it just seems less empty and cold. But I get that not everyone thinks the way that I do.

I like to rant, but I feel that if I let others rant, then it's okay if I rant. You know, do unto others. Everyone has a voice. I try my best to respect them all.

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Are you a Pokemon fan? My spirit Pokemon is Horsea.
Religion can make people crazy, it's not you, it's them who are the broken record replaying "Praise the Lord!"

Yes! Lugia is my favorite

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by aron

I personally still believe in God, simply because a universe with "God" in it (conceptually speaking, of course) is preferable to one without God. Somehow it just seems less empty and cold. But I get that not everyone thinks the way that I do.

I like to rant, but I feel that if I let others rant, then it's okay if I rant. You know, do unto others. Everyone has a voice. I try my best to respect them all.

I think this is a very good way to look at things. I've often felt that religious people don't follow the do unto others thing, even if they claim to. It can be so inherently hypocritical, so I struggle with seeing a point to any outspoken organized religion, LC or not. I agree with you that it's nicer to believe in a universe with a conceptual God. I haven't decided what I think that God is or who he is to me, or where I fit in, etc. It's nice to have the freedom to think about those things though, and not have stuff I don't agree with spoon fed to me, now that I'm out of the Recovery.


I just remember one thing that stuck with me throughout my whole childhood was WHAT ABOUT THE WOMEN?? Like, women can't speak in the church. Should let their husbands lead them. Also, were totally allowed to become sex chattel in the OT. Also, the whole story of Esther, where she basically had to seduce the king for the sake of God's people. But sex is bad though! Or is it only bad when the women wants it, not when the man wants it? And I never understood Song of Solomon. He has so many wives so he can represent Christ and his Bride...but, like, what? And wasn't there the story of David's son or rival or someone taking over while he was out fighting, and making a show of "going in unto" all his concubines in front of everyone? Doesn't paint a very good picture of how the God of the Bible sees women.



Well, that was an unexpected rant. I'm glad rants are welcome

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

I just remember one thing that stuck with me throughout my whole childhood was WHAT ABOUT THE WOMEN?? Like, women can't speak in the church. Should let their husbands lead them. Also, were totally allowed to become sex chattel in the OT. Also, the whole story of Esther, where she basically had to seduce the king for the sake of God's people. But sex is bad though! Or is it only bad when the women wants it, not when the man wants it? And I never understood Song of Solomon. He has so many wives so he can represent Christ and his Bride...but, like, what? And wasn't there the story of David's son or rival or someone taking over while he was out fighting, and making a show of "going in unto" all his concubines in front of everyone? Doesn't paint a very good picture of how the God of the Bible sees women.

Well, that was an unexpected rant. I'm glad rants are welcome

Me thinks it’s because the Bible is written by men, and the Israelites were trying to find their monotheistic religion separate from the other nationalities (polytheistic) around them, they editted out God’s wife in the Bible. In Jewish mythology, God or Yahweh was derived from the Canaanites gods and goddesses (see El and Asherah). In fact the jews were more henotheistic than monotheistic (thats why in the Old Testament, Moses kept telling them not to worship the golden calf and the “prophets” kept telling the israelites not to worship baal or the others gods. Now why would they do that? Because it was commonplace and I’m sure the Israelites believed in the existence of other gods and goddesses besides El (Yahweh, Jehovah).

[ExChurchKid]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Me thinks it’s because the Bible is written by men, and the Israelites were trying to find their monotheistic religion separate from the other nationalities (polytheistic) around them, they editted out God’s wife in the Bible. In Jewish mythology, God or Yahweh was derived from the Canaanites gods and goddesses (see El and Asherah). In fact the jews were more henotheistic than monotheistic (thats why in the Old Testament, Moses kept telling them not to worship the golden calf and the “prophets” kept telling the israelites not to worship baal or the others gods. Now why would they do that? Because it was commonplace and I’m sure the Israelites believed in the existence of other gods and goddesses besides El (Yahweh, Jehovah).

Methinks that perhaps you are right, and I learned some interesting things

[Intothewind]

There are plenty of people who leave the church life and find paths outside of Christianity. The often nutty(or worse) behavior of Christians opened the door to find my way to atheism, myself.
.
Though Christianity may be the majority world view, it certainly doesn't make it the only/best(nor IMO the most valid) so do realize that and take some time to explore.
.
.
It probably took a good year of me trying to decide what I really personally valued and believed about life here on Earth.
.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Intothewind

There are plenty of people who leave the church life and find paths outside of Christianity.

And I personally know plenty of them.

Originally Posted by Intothewind

The often nutty(or worse) behavior of Christians opened the door to find my way to atheism, myself.

The irony is that studies have revealed atheist know more about religions of all sorts better than those in the religions.

Originally Posted by Intothewind

It probably took a good year of me trying to decide what I really personally valued and believed about life here on Earth.
.

Good for you.