The Vapor of Human affection in the Local Churches

[jigsaw44]

This thread was created because I wanted ask about the emptiness and degradation of human relations in the local churches. After reading tons of posts from tons of threads I just came to the realization that it does not seem that the basics of grace, sincerity on friendship and bonds with fellow men is present in the local churches.

Don't get me wrong people in the local churches are seemingly gung ho and cheerful, loving, caring, and sweet towards one another but as soon as someone seems "tainted" or is deteriorating in "building material", or go against anything LC standard/customs- things go south.

1.Now moving on to the purpose of my post I first to address basic freedoms and will in the LC. The first topic of this will be freedom of pursuing love/marriage. To give an example, here is a quote/post from a member on here- .
"I remember the young sister who shepherded me into the LC in college. She was completely broken hearted because the boy she was in love with she could not marry. She was put together with a man who also just came out of the FTT. I can remember her crying with me. It was so sad. The turn around was so quick....seems like a week later she was engaged to this man I had never heard of and she acted happy about it. But looking back I am sure she was separated from her love because he wasn't in the church life. She and at least 2 other sisters I watched being married off in the same way."

Response- How is this even a thing and not even resisted upon in any way? How does one allow their daughter to be married off like cattle with no will of her own. For a girl to be dreaded in tears because she cant even control who she marries. I have read other post about concerned parents on here, asking for advice for the kids being dupped into going to FTT.

Im just imaging the idea of ripping someone from their families and sending them to a brainwashing institution and making them a slave for the interest of the LC is just terrible. I would be enraged if I had a daughter pour down in tears telling me something like this. How do LC members just watch this happen? Don't even get me started in ex LC member testimonies and their stories of abusive marriages and domestic violence being pushed aside and forcing the victim to stay together and "repent. F*** that s**t, you just let a abuser sit around and be scot free and blame the victim?

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

- I don't see that form of love in these practices and customs at all. Why is this maintained in America of all places? I understand Saudi Arabia, I mean people have no choice but to accept their arranged marriages as their customs are protected, and supported by government.

2. "Friends in the LC. First of all what the heck do people mean when they say they are told they cant have friends in the Local Churches? What do you even consider all the time you spent together as? Probably came from "eMpErOR" Lee. if it did, how do you let some man dictate your life to such an extreme point of a desolate and tragic lifestyle?

- I have saw posts of falling out of ex lc members whether it was a disagreement with doctrine/teachings, rough times in life that required time off from LC, or just personal issues that conflicted with LC time. This led to them being ostracized, and being outcaste completely. I'm talking people have been in these churches for years and spent so much time and joyful memories together then all of a sudden vanished because of someone entering a low point in life or a personal circumstance they must come to peace with.

Here is an example from another post on here- "When we were shunned, it was hardcore. A person very dear to me stopped speaking to me and pretended it was about her personal crisis ( loss of a loved one). Then another dear one gave us the same cold shoulder, unrelated to grief. We were played. For a long time I continued to reach out to them, not knowing the truth because they never told me the truth. I thought it was some offense of my doing. Folks I believed to be dear friends cut off communication with us without explaining why. Just ghosted us, me and my little kids. My kids loved these women so much because these LCers love bombed them too. Big time. And it probably didn't help that my husbands' work keeps us in localities so far removed from any real family members.

So these people were our surrogate family. The one older lady we quite considered to be grandma. My kids would slip and call her Grandma occasionally. She was my kids' medical emergency contact number, in lieu of us the parents. I mean, I was totally deceived into thinking their care and fellowship was real. But it was all lies. The love is only for the people devoted to Lee and ministry. So what I really hope for is to warn all unsuspecting believers away from this wicked Local Lee Church and the propagation of deception going on there."

Response- Looking all this, what the heck is the relationship between anyone in the LC. Lots of people have marriages they never wish to enter, people are taught to not have friends they can bond and have loyalty to. Its as if their humanity is destroyed, for what? The people they have home meetings with and go to Sunday meetings- what do you see those people as? Am I the only one who just sees this dismal situation as bizarre?
That is just scummy of how you can treat someone like that just because they departure from the local churches. The heck is wrong with people sometimes. How can you allow yourself to forgo what it means to be human . Even God is intimate and loving with his people, just look at the first portion of Jeremiah, he pleaded with his people to stay with him and not forsake him. He didn't just ditch them when they fell to a low point. He expressed his concerns and desires to remain with his people.

When LC people read the story of Johnathan and David, do they ever consider if they have a genuine friendship such as that. To be someone's actual friend- being there in their lowest point in life and not abandoning them, helping them while costing you convenience and even to some degree of safety/comfort. To put the interest of yourself aside in order to uplift the burdens of the one you care for. Am I crazy or are committed LC loyalist just empty vases, being forbidden to be filled with any sort of human affection.

Ecclesiastes 4:9-12
9 Two are better than one,
because they have a good return for their labor:
10 If either of them falls down,
one can help the other up.
But pity anyone who falls
and has no one to help them up.
11 Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm.
But how can one keep warm alone?
12 Though one may be overpowered,
two can defend themselves.
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

3. Reflection/conclusion- Am I thinking to deeply or my thoughts reflective of the established tradition of human relation in the LC. I'm sure there are outliers and there are people who will generally always be there for another even if they were to fall off from the LC.

Im assuming these behaviors all come from "eMpErOr" lee. If so then I am astonished how one man can dominate human behavior even after his death (well of course the despots at Anaheim preserve his teachings). Did witness lee truly want to create a church like this? Why, just why...... Nothing makes sense, everything with this church just seems so fake. Is anything genuine, it seems the gospel itself is second to witness lee doctrine. How does something like this preserve itself in the "nAmE" of Christianity? This is supposedly the true church? No other church has the truth or ground of the local churches? Oh really? Cause you spent so much time with other churches right? You somehow speak on experience you have never had or touched before right? You make judgment and speak on something you really have no knowledge of.

Everything seems fake from the recruitment and love bombing of college kids, half a** marriages, destruction/separation of family members outside the LC, "cArE" of one another and calling each other "bRoThEr" and "sIsTeR". Why does it have to be this way? Would it really hurt them if they departed the baggage of the teachings of witness lee?

Bouns Question- What would the LC be like if Watchman Nee lived just as long as Witness Lee? Would it still be the same or similar? Would Lee ever try to overpower Nee authority and influence knowing the power hungry man he is or even he has his limits to who he crosses. Would Lee doctrine be relevant?

[jigsaw44]

Sorry for some of my language In this post (I did censor), but I just had to vent out a bit.The entirety of the LC just seems like the book 1984. Well I guess this is a lesson in my life and to not take things for granted or first glance. Time to go back to square 1 and find my footing again. Hopefully I find another church/ group of worshippers that I fit well in.

[Nell]

Jigsaw44,

Your post asks a lot of incredulous questions beginning with the words "how" and "why". I have asked the same questions myself. I don't understand why leaders in the LC continue to teach Lee and Nee, long after their deaths...teachings that are full of holes and easily disproved by search of the scripture; teachings that have decimated the spiritual lives of so many believers. I don't understand how sober minded men and women continue to believe what to me is obvious "fake teachings".

I would point you to 2 Thess. 2 for possible answers, or at least cause us to scratch our little heads and think...hummm.

2 Thess. 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Wow! Unrighteous deception! Strong delusion! Just wow! Pleasure in unrighteousness? Unrighteousness has many forms.

Of course, we don't know how and why God does what he does, but in his word we know that God sent a strong delusion to men who did not believe the truth. Not just a "delusion". A "strong delusion." He told us clearly. This section of the word on Bible Gateway has the added title: The Great Apostasy. The great falling away from the truth.

Is there another explanation? Are there answers to your questions that are not explained or at least enlightened by the words "deception," "delusion" or "strong delusion"? The shocker to me is that this strong delusion was sent by God himself...that they should believe a lie. These refused to believe God's truth so he said...OK. You don't believe the truth I've told you...you are condemned in your believing lies, which we all know are from the "father of lies."

I really love the phrase: "love of truth". We MUST love TRUTH. If we love something else more than truth...we are ripe to fall into a strong delusion. LC leadership has chosen Lee/Nee over truth. Because of all your questions can we say there is no deception or delusion among the LC leadership? I don't think so. In fact, strong delusion is everywhere you look.

Read all of 2 Thess. 2. It's an eye opener.

Nell

[Curious]

https://m.facebook.com/themindsjourn...ok.com%2F&_rdr

The above short video introduction to 'attachment' introduces the role of the bonds of healthy attachment to the development of a child., and resulting problems in the adult. Sadly, the LCer couple I knew best fit very well into the fourth category described in this video. They were both 'born into' the LC, second generation.

To note, the above introduction to the subject of attachment, (which strongly validates the points discussed on this thread, and the harm possible when done badly), was provided to me by a mental health professional as a good introduction to this subject.
It highlights how fundamental strong attachment to each other is fundamental to human mental health and wellbeing. WL messed with that in order to gain and maintain first place in the lives of his followers.

I was taught long ago there are 2 types of relationship: consumatory, and instrumental. You don't expect your insurance salesman to lurch into personal information about themselves. It's understood to be a professional relationship, therfore appropriately instrumental. A consumatory relationship is a personal bond, and includes emotional intimacy, trust, loyalty, and all the attributes of 1cor. chapter 13. Good consumatory relationships are essential for every personal relationship in out lives. It equals strong healthy attachment. WL has done so much unthinkable and ongoing harm to create an environment where consumatory relationships are forbidden!! (except if directed towards him or now his replacements). To bail on relationships within the LC based on the criteria mentioned in this thread is to relegate all relationships as instrumental to the cause of the LC. Which is hell-bound, and will harm all in its clutches.

As to the question of why.... Human control of other humans. When in such a culture of high control, we are individually weak in the face of the united force of heavy indoctrination and pressure. Its very hard to resist, especially in the absence of any information contrary to the 'party line' and when brought up within it. It takes an act of God in our lives, and a heart that really digs for truth, as Nell indicates through the scriptures provided, to break away and see through it.

[TLFisher]

Most common catchphrase you'll hear in the Local Churches is poison. If you are one currently meeting in the local churches, you're wary of ex-members because you don't want to be poisoned. If you're an ex-member you're wary of current members because you don't want to be accused of trying to "poison" them. In other words the concept current members have of ex-members is they will try to convince you to leave which is furthest thing from the truth.
So there are avoidance tactics employed. Still having compassion you don't want to intentionally offend the other. Really this all comes down to fear of man.
Ones may have spent time together in the meetings and away from meetings, but the common denominator for their friendship is the LC culture. As one stays in the LC and the other goes, the basis for their friendship is gone.

[jigsaw44]

Terry- Yeah that word Poison gets thrown around a lot. It is a shame people in the LC cant have independent thought when it comes to basic life decisions and freedoms. I mean hee-hee, witness lee does wants weak dogs who give unconditional loyalty. Why would he want intelligent and independent minds in his churches? That is a problem for him and historically he has discarded those people with his tyranny.

Curious- I saw that video, the last portion of the video is just sad and I would assume describes the life of many LC kids. Its ridiculous how people don't realize the consequences of their actions. Some Seniors/ and or elders always say pray for my child they are no agnostic/atheist and away from the church life. In my head, I'm like you know- have you ever thought how that came to be? You give your child such inhumane restrictions and arbitrary rules, why is it a surprise they wanted to be free from you as soon as possible?

Nell- The scripture you provided was excellent, I mean holy moly- that could very well be the description and situation with the LC. Thank you very much, it explains a lot.

Hi there: I am uncertain if my post will arrive and be seen. My user name is Hope. I
have so far been unable to register and log in. Most likely my old brain trying to navigate
another's logic.

What to say! You apologized for your salty words, don't be concerned about that.
The "Them and us" format the LC's foster concerning friendship's outside of the
movement is alive and well. How often have you heard the word (POISONED) when a
discussion is had about some outsider interfering with some new recruit




About me: I unwittingly gave nearly 19 years to this thing. There were events in my
time line that would see me out of what they call the meeting life. The most appreciable
of the things that kept me there were my now adult children

I have seen many complaints about the Lc's and have been corrected by a very dear
Brother and friend when I climbed on the band wagon keen to add my take. His
admonition reads like this. "We should not in any way embellish our own testimony
concerning these people." I believe we will be dealt with, before our Lord in the day of
judgement. I hope no false testimony is brought to bear on our case there.
It's no light weight thing to carry around but I feel it is worth the mention in a very
general, generic way. I feel good about this site apart from not being able to register.
DUP!!!!!!!!

[jigsaw44]

Thank you for your words anonymous poster, if you emailed the official contact email with your desired username and purpose on this website. You should get a response email containing a temp password and your username.