Glad

[recoveringCK]

I am glad to find this site.
Too bad I did not find it decades ago.

It confirms my worst nightmares regarding the administrative hierarchies in the LC.

That helps.

The control of the appointed elders by WL is new.

Growing up in the church one is taught the light on the scriptures from WL & WN was the best available, the current move of the Lord on the earth today,
the church was to be the bride of Christ, ushering in the New Jerusalem complete with the Millennial Kingdom as a reward to the overcomers, true believers who pursue Christ according to the doctrines espoused.
One could even say the church was the center and meaning of the universe.

It was said all the brothers are equal. All the elders are equal. The bible clearly speaks against the clergy laity system. God hates the practice of the nicolaitans.

The church is open. There are no secrets.

Starting from preschool all the above was accepted without question.

In a recent morning revival, WL is quoted as saying not to make decisions for others, explaining none of us is wise enough to do that.

In one of the trainings WL said the church is not a legislature for making laws, the church is not a judge for passing judgment, the church is not a police force for enforcement. The church is a hospital for healing.

So far so good. Let's do it.

Unfortunately, what they actually do is substantially different from what they say they do.

They do put on a very good front and use effective control techniques.

[awareness]

Glad you caught on. I saw that way back in the late 70's. Sorry you were raised in it.

Blessings ... and thanks for this thread.

[aron]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Unfortunately, what they actually do is substantially different from what they say they do.

They do put on a very good front and use effective control techniques.

They maintain operational control through strict informational control. There's a story from back in the 1960s, a Chinese brother was walking down the street with a young American. The Chinese said, "You have to watch out for the family of Brother Lee."

Then he clapped his hand over his mouth and said, "Oh! I shouldn't have said that!"

You see, he already knew what Lee had done in Taiwan. But in their culture, you're not supposed to expose leadership. Lee repeatedly leveraged this culture of silence.

Today, with the internet, one can read the stories. LSM no longer runs the only printing press in town. One can read what happened to others, as they realized the extent of the gap between how the LC " church life" was supposed to be, and how it really was.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Unfortunately, what they actually do is substantially different from what they say they do.

Originally Posted by aron

Today, with the internet, one can read the stories. LSM no longer runs the only printing press in town. One can read what happened to others, as they realized the extent of the gap between how the LC " church life" was supposed to be, and how it really was.

This is so true. I dramatically learned it in 2005 when I left the LC.

As LSM was about to excommunicate "quarantine" Titus Chu and most of the Midwest LC's, I went to the internet to study Plymouth Brethren history in order to sort this all out -- how could the LC's claim to stand for oneness yet have so many "storms" and nasty "divisions?"

I had lived thru the nasty "storms" and quarantines of the late 1980's, and had believed Lee's version of events because he was the only source of information. Things changed by 2005. The internet made available the actual record of history, how events were precipitated by Lee's own profligate son Philip molesting sisters and abusing workers.

God shined a bright light on the deception and corruption at LSM.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The internet made available the actual record of history, how events were precipitated by Lee's own profligate son Philip molesting sisters and abusing workers.

God shined a bright light on the deception and corruption at LSM.

And not only Philip but also Timothy.

Originally Posted by HistoryofLordsRecovery

1. The Beginning of the Church Life In 1962 the church life in the Lord’s recovery had already begun, but accelerated markedly with the arrival of brother Witness Lee who was fully charged and burdened by the Lord to minister the word of God in the United States. He testified that he came with a "particular commission to bring the Lord's recovery to the top Christian country". The response to his ministry in the United States was immediate and many left secure jobs and moved long distances to partake of the church life in Los Angeles.

2. The Catalyst for Coming to the U.S. (Larry Chi, former Taipei elder) Although Brother Lee testified that he was commissioned by the Lord to come to the U. S., there were serious issues between him and churches in the Far East that were a catalyst for his coming here. In the late fifties he had created a major problem to the church in Taipei through business failures involving investments from the saints, and his oldest son, Timothy, and he lost a lot of money. This brought a financial crisis to the church in Taipei. All the donations from the church members were used to pay the debt incurred, and still a large amount of money was owed. Due to the desperate situation, Brother Lee coerced the elders to sell a piece of land belonging to the church in order to pay the debt. Because of that action many coworkers and church members were especially unhappy. That piece of land had been bought by the church to build a training center and a new meeting place. Brother Lee knew that what he did was wrong and left for the West Coast of the United States in 1960.

After Brother Lee left Taiwan, the church coworkers formed two sides. One side was Brother Lee’s strong followers, while the other group had questions about some of his activities. Those two groups had a strong difference of opinion, which greatly affected the church life and made the work of the church difficult to carry out. Eventually, some of the coworkers who were followers of Brother Lee asked him to come back to Taiwan to resolve differences. In the summer of 1965, Brother Lee came back to Taipei. He decided to get rid of those coworkers who disagreed with him. Consequently, there were thousands of people who left the church. At that time almost 30% of the regular members left, a most serious situation being that about 80-90% of the young members who were college students left the church. Brother Lee’s action in 1965 has been referred to as a “cleansing massacre” to get the church to line up with him only. Others feel that it was a necessary move. At any rate Brother Lee came back to the U. S. and the saints in Taipei were left to pick up the pieces and begin to rebuild.

In other matters in the Far East, toward the end of the 1950’s co-workers in Hong Kong, the Philippines, Singapore, and Malaysia had serious differences with Brother Lee because of the absolute authority he exercised, which was hard for them to take. Everything was dictated by him, and he would not take any input from others. It was a “my way or the highway attitude”, according to one brother.

In addition some of the affluent church members were very unhappy about his handling of the financial matters. This was due to the fact that a lot of the money had been contributed by them, and Brother Lee handled the finances according to his own thought. The co-workers did not feel they could trust him anymore and because of the differences they had with him they split up.

As Brother Lee left Taiwan in 1960 for the U. S., the church work there was in serious disarray. Also the Philippines work was split off. The Philippines was very important to Brother Lee and several well-to-do church members supported the church there financially over the years. Manila, however, decided to sever relationships with Brother Lee totally in 1960.

Concerning the Philippines and finances, Brother Lee was nearly arrested at the Manila airport for trying to smuggle a gold bar out of the country. He received a warning only, because of his good reputation in the country. (by Larry Chi, former elder in Taipei)

3. Brother Lee Admits to Mistakes Even though it is not common to point to Brother Lee’s mistakes, he himself did so, saying, “I have made many mistakes; even some big mistakes” (Eph. L. S., p. 279, 1978). When he came to the West Coast, Brother Lee knew about some mistakes he made in the Far East. To repeat, when Brother Lee left Taiwan to go to the U.S. in 1960, it was not really that he went there to open up a new land for the Lord’s recovery. Rather, it was because of his own personal failure in Taiwan that he escaped to the U.S.

4. Brothers’ Request in L. A. and Problems in Taipei In 1962 Brother Lee set up a business for his oldest son, Timothy, at the Seattle World’s Fair. Since he was on the West Coast, the brothers in Los Angeles asked him to give them a conference, and he did so after the Fair. After those meetings they begged him to move to Los Angeles. He did take up residence in L. A., since he really could not go back to Taipei.

5. Brother Lee Repents Don Hardy felt that the reason Witness Lee had such impact in the U. S. in the sixties was because he had deeply repented of his wrongdoings and was a cleansed vessel to begin his rich ministry of the word in this country. Paul Ma testified to the brothers that Brother Lee spent many hours of prayerful repenting while traveling with him in the early sixties in the U. S. He was seen in the corner of a motel room praying “Lord, have mercy”, “Lord have mercy”, over and over for a long period of time.

6. Witness Lee’s Main Burden Brother Lee’s main spiritual burden in the U.S. was to reveal Christ as the life-giving Spirit with all His unsearchable riches. This burden began to be discharged in the first conference meetings held in the United States in 1962 in the home of Samuel Chang. The All-Inclusive Christ came out of that conference. His focus during the early years was on the experience of Christ as life for the building up of the church.

7. Concern for Weakness in Brother Lee In 1966 Samuel Chang revealed to a young prospective elder, Don Hardy, his serious concern for Brother Lee and a defect in his character related to his son, Timothy, and all his seven children. Don was exhorted to keep the matter covered much in prayer. Samuel’s concern was well-founded given the record of the extent Brother Lee would go for his son, Timothy, in business at the expense of others and the church. His word to Don portended for far more serious developments in the future with Timothy Lee and another son, Philip, who were made heads of businesses for Brother Lee, involving the saints.

What provoked Samuel Chang to speak to Don Hardy as he did was that the meeting place of the church in Los Angeles was being used by Brother Lee to store the unsold expensive suits and shirts left over from his World’s Fair business with Timothy. This was a source of irritation and concern to Samuel, especially since he knew of the problems Brother Lee’s business excursions had caused the church in the past in Taipei.

[Ohio]

I left LSM and the LC's because of the gross disconnect between their teachings and practices behind the scenes.

These things, my beloved brothers and sisters, should not be so. James 3.10

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Growing up in the church one is taught the light on the scriptures from WL & WN was the best available, the current move of the Lord on the earth today, the church was to be the bride of Christ, ushering in the New Jerusalem complete with the Millennial Kingdom as a reward to the overcomers, true believers who pursue Christ according to the doctrines espoused. One could even say the church was the center and meaning of the universe.

Thank you so much for taking the time to come and share your testimony. You have some great observations and insights for such a young person! May the Lord continue to enlighten and strengthen you as you journey on in your pursuit of Christ, who is the only Way, the only Truth and the only Life. If this forum has helped you even just a little bit in this journey, all of us out here will rejoice in the Lord!

What caught my eye the most was your quip: "One could even say the church was the center and meaning of the universe". As you may know, there is/was (at least at one time) a song/hymn in which the opening stanza was "O I’m a man — I’m the meaning of the universe God made me such, I am so much; I’m the center and the meaning of the universe.". Of course these lyrics came directly from Witness Lee's teachings regarding the church, and was actually one of the pillars of Lee's overall ministry. We were "becoming God in life and nature" after all.

To this day, it still amazes me how Witness Lee was able to twist, contort and magically weave such an unbiblical concept and make it seem to be not only biblical, but convince a sizable lot of Christians that it was one of the central themes of the Scriptures. NO! Man is NOT the center and meaning of the universe - not even the redeemed and regenerated man. Not even the resurrected and glorified man is the meaning and center of the universe. The Bible says no such thing! The Scriptures do not even faintly imply such a thing. The center and meaning of the universe is God Himself. Even more specifically – The Truine God – The Trinity – God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit are the meaning and center of the universe.

“In the beginning was God” (Genesis 1 and John 1) In the beginning God was the meaning and center of the universe that He created. Man was created by God from the dust of the ground. Yes, Man was made in His image and likeness, but Man was indeed a created creature. Yes, Man was given the image and likeness of God and also put in the garden to tend it. God did not tell Adam and Eve “I was the center and meaning of the universe, but now I have created you to be the center and meaning of the universe”. Thankfully God was not that foolish! When man fell, the center and meaning of the universe would have fallen!

Fast forward to the end of the Bible – the end of Revelation. Who is the center and meaning of the universe at the end? “And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.” (Revelation 21:22) In the earthly, original Jerusalem the center and meaning was the temple. Why? Because that is where the center and meaning of the universe dwelt – God Himself dwelt in the temple. The New Jerusalem will have the same center and meaning – God Himself will still be the center and meaning of the universe, just as He has been since the beginning.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

So far so good. Let's do it.


Unfortunately, what they actually do is substantially different from what they say they do.

They do put on a very good front and use effective control techniques.

You applaud the stated mission but criticize the execution of it.

The Lord will judge and what is not of Him will burn up as wood, hay, and stubble.

However, as long as the mission/vision is right the execution can be adjusted. If the mission is missing or wrong then the execution matters little. So, if you think the mission is right then I’d encourage you to be led by it and trust the Lord through your prayer and petition to align the execution with the mission/vision.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

You applaud the stated mission but criticize the execution of it.

The Lord will judge and what is not of Him will burn up as wood, hay, and stubble.

However, as long as the mission/vision is right the execution can be adjusted. If the mission is missing or wrong then the execution matters little. So, if you think the mission is right then I’d encourage you to be led by it and trust the Lord through your prayer and petition to align the execution with the mission/vision.

Drake

Sorry Drake, but both your mission and your execution are seriously flawed. How do you ever expect to hit the target when you are aiming in the wrong direction?

The LSM "mission" is built on sinking sand, stating that only they are the Lord's testimony, and all others are hopelessly divided and helplessly degraded. The LSM mission is built upon Nee and Lee as MOTA's, the only legitimate Ministers of the Age, with all other ministers illegitimate at best, and their writings actually supersede scripture, that is where Lee can "prove" the scripture to be merely "human sentiment."

Since the LSM mission is so seriously flawed, it's no wonder that her most ardent supporters have always been willing to violate both conscience and scripture in order to protect her, and coverup the many wrongdoings and unrighteousness of her leaders.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

So, if you think the mission is right then I’d encourage you to be led by it and trust the Lord through your prayer and petition to align the execution with the mission/vision.

I tried that. It didn't turn out well.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The LSM "mission" is built on sinking sand, stating that only they are the Lord's testimony, and all others are hopelessly divided and helplessly degraded. The LSM mission is built upon Nee and Lee as MOTA's, the only legitimate Ministers of the Age, with all other ministers illegitimate at best . . .

And that is, sadly, the state of things. The exclusivity thing is so easy to fall into, I think all the more the higher the vision we've seen - it happens to so, so many groups throughout our 2,000 year history. In the end, it's just another manifestation and division of the flesh.

Oh that WL would have taken the fellowship of T. Austin Sparks back in the late 1950s. Witness Lee interaction with T. Austin Sparks - a supremely consequential and sad affair!

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

I tried that. It didn't turn out well.

If you try to re-align the mission you get executed.

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What caught my eye the most was your quip: "One could even say the church was the center and meaning of the universe". As you may know, there is/was (at least at one time) a song/hymn in which the opening stanza was "O I’m a man — I’m the meaning of the universe God made me such, I am so much; I’m the center and the meaning of the universe.". Of course these lyrics came directly from Witness Lee's teachings regarding the church, and was actually one of the pillars of Lee's overall ministry. We were "becoming God in life and nature" after all

UntoHim,

You have to remember that the "center of the universe" was whatever Witness Lee was teaching this week. It changed from training to training, but apparently we were 'trained' or conditioned not to notice (or not to mention that we noticed).

I did a Google search on the key words and found these varied quotes.

Originally Posted by aron

“Some years ago I read an article regarding the size of the universe published by an institute of astronomy. According to this article, two hundred forty million solar systems make one galaxy, and forty billion galaxies form the unique center of the universe. I believe the throne of God is located in this unique center. “ (Witness Lee, Basic Training p. 9)

“Revelation 22:1 says, “He showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street.” The throne here is the center of the New Jerusalem. Every nation has a center. The center of a nation is its capital, the place where the central government is located. The New Jerusalem also has a center, which is the throne of God and of the Lamb.

According to the context of this portion of the Word, the throne of God and of the Lamb is the center of the New Jerusalem, on which the redeeming God, as indicated by the expression “God and the Lamb”, carries out His administration based upon His redemption, in His eternal kingdom in the new heaven and new earth, to keep everything in the universe in the order that serves His purpose.” (The Conclusion of the New Testament p. 2734)

“The throne of God in the center of the New Jerusalem is the unique source of the life supply. It is by His administration that God dispenses Himself into us as life, as the life supply, and as the eternal, absolute, all-inclusive grace. His dispensing of Himself into us depends upon His administration.” (TCONT p. 4419)

“The tree of life is the center of the universe. According to the purpose of God, the earth is the center of the universe, the garden of Eden is the center of the earth, and the tree of life is the center of the garden of Eden. We must realize that the whole universe is centered on this tree of life: nothing is more central and crucial to both God and man than this tree. It is very meaningful to see man in the garden standing before the tree of life.” (Life-Study of Genesis, p. 140)

“Looking at the plot plan of the temple compound, we can see that no matter through which gate we enter, we will arrive at the altar. When God comes from the temple to meet man, He likewise arrives at the altar. Therefore the altar is not only the center of the universe but also the meeting place of God with man and of man with God . . . the cross, therefore, is not only the center but also the circumference. . “ (Life-Study of Ezekiel, Msg 21)

"THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE - MAN" (Gospel Outlines, Title of Subject Three)

So, what's the center of the universe? The altar, or the tree of life, or the throne of God, or man? Answer: whatever Witness Lee needed it to be for that message. This was a ministry of expedience. Yet no one ever questioned these glaring contradictions. I could list many such examples - I just point out an obvious one.

All those messages in front of all those people. Yet nobody ever said, Wait a minute here . . . ??? Amazing, in retrospect.

All this suggested brainwashing, to me.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What caught my eye the most was your quip: "One could even say the church was the center and meaning of the universe". As you may know, there is/was (at least at one time) a song/hymn in which the opening stanza was "O I’m a man — I’m the meaning of the universe God made me such, I am so much; I’m the center and the meaning of the universe.". Of course these lyrics came directly from Witness Lee's teachings regarding the church, and was actually one of the pillars of Lee's overall ministry. We were "becoming God in life and nature" after all.

Wow - I haven't thought about that song one bit for many, many years --- the Holy Spirit has never brought it up in my mind, like He does with so many other songs from way-back-when! I could not sing that song today.

While I understand that God made us in His image & likeness and has a wonderful and lofty purpose for regenerated man - much more than any of us know - to say that man is the center and meaning of the universe is going too far! It is not scriptural according to anything I've read in the Bible.

The gathering in Scottsdale certainly still sings some of the songs that came from LC sources, but that definitely is not one of them!

[Weighingin]

In regards to the comments on man being the center of the universe, I checked Zechariah 12:1 in the RV. To paraphrase some of the footnote, it states that the the heavens, the earth, and the spirit of man were made by God as three crucial and equally important items. Also, that God intended Christ to be the centrality and universality of His move on earth. I recall, as a young person, singing that song and thinking that way. I haven't heard that hymn in recent years. At that time, I just received everything that was said and done.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

In regards to the comments on man being the center of the universe, I checked Zechariah 12:1 in the RV. To paraphrase some of the footnote, it states that the the heavens, the earth, and the spirit of man were made by God as three crucial and equally important items. Also, that God intended Christ to be the centrality and universality of His move on earth. I recall, as a young person, singing that song and thinking that way. I haven't heard that hymn in recent years. At that time, I just received everything that was said and done.

Here's a funny thought: Maybe bro Lee was a little like Fox News (a right-biased news network in the USA). Things were so skewed toward a low vision of the church (a "cheapened" added word itself) that WL thought he needed to "balance" things out. But in doing so he went a tad far and elevated man even beyond what scripture says.

(And now, like brother Spurgeon was fond of saying, "Let's smoke a cigar to the glory of God!")

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by aron

You have to remember that the "center of the universe" was whatever Witness Lee was teaching this week. It changed from training to training, but apparently we were 'trained' or conditioned not to notice (or not to mention that we noticed).

I did a Google search on the key words and found these varied quotes.


All this suggested brainwashing, to me.

Great post Aron - I saw inconsistencies like this throughout my time with the LSM church. It is such an interesting comment “being trained or conditioned not to notice”. I also found that to be true in the LSM church. Also, if you did notice, you chalk that up to being in flesh, etc. and do not share.

This is one reason why this site was so helpful, I would sit in a room and think “I was going crazy - surely I’m not the only one who sees this?!?” Then I find this site and read posts about people that also were able to see through the clutter to the reality of Christ.

the dog and pony show of Lee - such a waste of energy.

[aron]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I saw inconsistencies like this throughout my time with the LSM church. It is such an interesting comment “being trained or conditioned not to notice”. I also found that to be true in the LSM church. Also, if you did notice, you chalk that up to being in flesh, etc. and do not share.

We were in a system that was hyper-aware of all the failures of everyone else but oblivious to its own. For several years I afterward, I would sit in the Community Church and mentally bad-mouth everything they were saying and doing. It took me, literally, years to begin to listen for God's voice. I was so used to listening to the ministry.

Of course Pastor Bob down at the Community Church also is self-contradictory, and misses points from scripture, and commits illogical faux pas, and so forth. But Pastor Bob doesn't try to pass himself off as Today's Paul, God's Oracle and sole Deputy either. Pastor Bob doesn't quarantine people, and split up their families, if they begin to read other sources, and raise alternatives.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

WL thought he needed to "balance" things out. But in doing so he went a tad far

There's plenty that needs adjustment. WL wouldn't have gotten a movement together if there were not people looking for alternatives to the status quo (likewise WN in China in 1925-35).

But like poem of the woman who swallowed the fly, the corrective measures may be worse than the original problem. We should at least consider that possibility.

[recoveringCK]

Thanks for the response.

It is helpful to know others noted similar contradictions.

The discussions will help to enforce transparency in their compartmentalized hierarchy no matter how strongly they declare everything is open, there is no hierarchy and there are no secrets.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by aron

Of course Pastor Bob down at the Community Church also is self-contradictory, and misses points from scripture, and commits illogical faux pas, and so forth. But Pastor Bob doesn't try to pass himself off as Today's Paul, God's Oracle and sole Deputy either. Pastor Bob doesn't quarantine people, and split up their families, if they begin to read other sources, and raise alternatives..

This is such a key point, especially for those trapped in the LSM local churches.


Pastor Brett down at the Community Church, in fact, says he isn’t today’s Paul, he tries to reconcile families, challenges you to read other resources, appreciates feedback and discussion - however imperfectly.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

We were in a system that was hyper-aware of all the failures of everyone else but oblivious to its own. For several years I afterward, I would sit in the Community Church and mentally bad-mouth everything they were saying and doing. It took me, literally, years to begin to listen for God's voice. I was so used to listening to the ministry.

Of course Pastor Bob down at the Community Church also is self-contradictory, and misses points from scripture, and commits illogical faux pas, and so forth. But Pastor Bob doesn't try to pass himself off as Today's Paul, God's Oracle and sole Deputy either. Pastor Bob doesn't quarantine people, and split up their families, if they begin to read other sources, and raise alternatives.

There's plenty that needs adjustment. WL wouldn't have gotten a movement together if there were not people looking for alternatives to the status quo (likewise WN in China in 1925-35).

But like poem of the woman who swallowed the fly, the corrective measures may be worse than the original problem. We should at least consider that possibility.

And that has been something of my experience too. Our ekklesia has a rich ministry, which I really enjoy and am greatly nourished whereby to pursue the Lord. But as I've traveled around and been to different locations and gatherings, at first I had a critical mind toward them. However I began to see how this really killed the fellowship. So instead, when I visited another group I began to just thank the Lord for them, the way they did things and their speaking. When I laid aside the old criticisms (i.e., "put off the old man"), then I was able to enjoy oneness and experience something of Christ with these different ones.

And it seems like a fair comparison of pastor Bob and WL. We also had someone here 20 years ago who was ruling families with a heavy hand and there were many broken marriages, but thankfully the Lord purged that person out.

And I think your last point was good too - yes, if things hadn't have been degraded in Christendom, then WL wouldn't have been able to offer an alternative. I do believe the enjoyment of Christ was strong in the LC in the 1960s to perhaps the mid-1970s. But a number of things suppressed that, not the least of which was the extreme exclusivity.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And that has been something of my experience too. Our ekklesia has a rich ministry, which I really enjoy and am greatly nourished whereby to pursue the Lord. But as I've traveled around and been to different locations and gatherings, at first I had a critical mind toward them. However I began to see how this really killed the fellowship. So instead, when I visited another group I began to just thank the Lord for them, the way they did things and their speaking. When I laid aside the old criticisms (i.e., "put off the old man"), then I was able to enjoy oneness and experience something of Christ with these different ones.

And it seems like a fair comparison of pastor Bob and WL. We also had someone here 20 years ago who was ruling families with a heavy hand and there were many broken marriages, but thankfully the Lord purged that person out.

And I think your last point was good too - yes, if things hadn't have been degraded in Christendom, then WL wouldn't have been able to offer an alternative. I do believe the enjoyment of Christ was strong in the LC in the 1960s to perhaps the mid-1970s. But a number of things suppressed that, not the least of which was the extreme exclusivity.

I had such similar experiences to Aron and Sons to Glory it was almost like reading my own story

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Wow - I haven't thought about that song one bit for many, many years --- the Holy Spirit has never brought it up in my mind, like He does with so many other songs from way-back-when! I could not sing that song today.

While I understand that God made us in His image & likeness and has a wonderful and lofty purpose for regenerated man - much more than any of us know - to say that man is the center and meaning of the universe is going too far! It is not scriptural according to anything I've read in the Bible.

The gathering in Scottsdale certainly still sings some of the songs that came from LC sources, but that definitely is not one of them!

I remember this song well. I remember this little niggling in my conscience every time we sang it...I should have been listening to the Lord. This and 'pray-reading'?? those conference banners always made me so uncomfortable. Actually pray reading the banners was something I eventually refused to do.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Here's a funny thought: Maybe bro Lee was a little like Fox News (a right-biased news network in the USA). Things were so skewed toward a low vision of the church (a "cheapened" added word itself) that WL thought he needed to "balance" things out. But in doing so he went a tad far and elevated man even beyond what scripture says.

(And now, like brother Spurgeon was fond of saying, "Let's smoke a cigar to the glory of God!")

StG,

Your speculation is way too complex. Brother Lee taught what he believed about the Bible and Zechariah 12:1 is a quintessential example. The leader of your group also under that same ministry embraced that teaching too. You don’t have to but that is your inheritance should you choose to build on the revelation shown to others before you.

Yet, maybe that is not important to you.... or perhaps God is showing you something different. In any case, you should treasure your birthright.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

It's helpful to know others noted similar contradictions.

The discussions will help to enforce transparency in their compartmentalized hierarchy no matter how strongly they declare everything is open, there is no hierarchy and there are no secrets.

Witness Lee, from the dias: "Who among you have I controlled? Who?"

Crowd, in unison: "No one, Brother Lee!"

Blended Brother #5, leaping up: "Let's all pray-read point C from the outline!"

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

In any case, you should treasure your birthright.

What is your definition of "birthright" here?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Yet, maybe that is not important to you.... or perhaps God is showing you something different. In any case, you should treasure your birthright.

Drake

StG,

Just make sure what God shows you comes from Witness Lee!

There is only one blueprint and one master builder in the proper, correct building. The only master builder is the architect who has the blueprint in his hand. This is true in every age. The Lord issues the blueprint, the revelation, and the utterance, and through one man, He supervises and completes the building work. All those who do not build, speak, or serve according to the blueprint released by the Lord through that man are void of light and revelation and are not serving according to the vision.

This exerpt is from https://afaithfulword.org/articles/V...ster/#Minister
Please reference the link above for additional context and content.

[byHismercy]

Except they have hold of the wrong 'one' man. It isn't Lee. It's Jesus!
byHismercy

[awareness]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

This exerpt is from https://afaithfulword.org/articles/V...ster/#Minister
Please reference the link above for additional context and content.

This is the last paragraph at your link to 'afaithfulword.org'

All verses and footnotes are from the Holy Bible, Recovery Version. Excerpts from the Recovery Version and the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are copyrighted by Living Stream Ministry and used by permission. Witness Lee is the author of quoted materials unless otherwise noted.

If your quoted material is true, then you and I, and most LCD members out here - except maybe a couple - are on the outs with God ; as is everyone that's not following the master builder of our age.

It's possible I suppose. But not plausible according to Jesus, Paul, or any other author's of the NT.

Nowhere is such message spelled out in the NT. It's an extra-Biblical contrivance. But works to empower Lee ... and Nee. They cooked up that vision. In 2000 yrs, they're the only ones.

So fall in line ... or be lost from God.

[leastofthese]

Hmm... go out to all nations, telling them the good news and teaching them to observe all that I have commanded of them - as long as you’ve received expressed permission or written consent.

What a joke - from THE ministry and THE master builder? “Not plausible” is a generous statement awareness.

Wasting time pretending and defending Lee when Christ’s work of redemption is real? - As believers we are children of God and heirs with Christ!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

This exerpt is from https://afaithfulword.org/articles/V...ster/#Minister
Please reference the link above for additional context and content.

LofT,

No joke, when I read your quote I was chuckling to myself because it was so extreme I literally thought you had created an over-the-top exaggerated parody version of the MOTA doctrine off the top of your head as a joke. Then you referenced the source and I realized it actually was in ministry print.

I was floored. Absolutely unbelievable, really, I just cannot believe it. If you do not follow Witness Lee and Witness Lee alone you are "void of light and revelation and are not serving according to [the Lord's] vision"?

It's actually very scary and very serious that any Christian group would try to propagate any kind of thought like this. There is no "one man per age principle", it just does not exist. The only "one man" we EVER need to spend any time on is Jesus.

I also just flat out don't understand how anyone can possibly swallow the thought that God has operated according to this "principle" throughout all the ages, and then all of a sudden, He abandons His principle and there is no longer a "one man visionary source" and you just have to keep reading the last man's material. The afaithfulword.org site even says "The dissenters' demand that the co-workers identify a present "minister of the age" is misplaced. The real question is whether we have fully entered into the vision that the Lord has already given to us."

NOPE, sorry LSM BB's, actually that demand is the logical question and conclusion of anyone with basic human intelligence that you are trying to get to swallow this ridiculous principle!!! Their three recommendations to enter into the vision actually translate in practice to "buy more LSM books and regurgitate more LSM material". Totally sickening.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Wasting time pretending and defending Lee when Christ’s work of redemption is real? - As believers we are children of God and heirs with Christ!

That's another thing - DCP's stated purpose is to defend and confirm the ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and the practice of the local churches. Then they usually quote Phil. 1:7 which says "...and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel you are all fellow partakers with me of grace."

Whoops! What did the verse say again? Defense and confirmation of what? Oh, defense and confirmation OF THE GOSPEL? OF THE GOSPEL!! The amount of time, energy, and saints' money spent defending Lee is off the charts, but since they name themselves with a phrase from the Bible they think that that distracts enough from the fact that they miss the whole point that they are not defending and confirming THE GOSPEL. They are defending Witness Lee!! If they actually poured all they are doing into defending and confirming THE GOSPEL we might actually make some progress!

Nice tax shelter.

http://rct.doj.ca.gov/Verification/W...027b8f80327bff

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Nice tax shelter.

http://rct.doj.ca.gov/Verification/W...027b8f80327bff

Since the poster was unregistered, rather than clicking on the link directly I googled rct.doj.ca.gov, which is the California Registry of Charitable Trusts website. Since I had just posted about DCP I took a chance and searched "defense and confirmation project" in the Organization Name field. This brought up DCP. Clicking on DCP opens another page. The link posted above corresponds to the link under the Related Documents section towards the bottom for "IRS Form 990 Series" for year 2016.

I don't know much about tax shelters so I didn't know what to look for in regards to Unreg's comment.

But I do know now that Dan Sady is not on, what I think the common phrase is, "a serving salary"!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Trapped

LofT,

No joke, when I read your quote I was chuckling to myself because it was so extreme I literally thought you had created an over-the-top exaggerated parody version of the MOTA doctrine off the top of your head as a joke. Then you referenced the source and I realized it actually was in ministry print.

I was floored. Absolutely unbelievable, really, I just cannot believe it. If you do not follow Witness Lee and Witness Lee alone you are "void of light and revelation and are not serving according to [the Lord's] vision"?

It's actually very scary and very serious that any Christian group would try to propagate any kind of thought like this. There is no "one man per age principle", it just does not exist. The only "one man" we EVER need to spend any time on is Jesus.

I also just flat out don't understand how anyone can possibly swallow the thought that God has operated according to this "principle" throughout all the ages, and then all of a sudden, He abandons His principle and there is no longer a "one man visionary source" and you just have to keep reading the last man's material. The afaithfulword.org site even says "The dissenters' demand that the co-workers identify a present "minister of the age" is misplaced. The real question is whether we have fully entered into the vision that the Lord has already given to us."

NOPE, sorry LSM BB's, actually that demand is the logical question and conclusion of anyone with basic human intelligence that you are trying to get to swallow this ridiculous principle!!! Their three recommendations to enter into the vision actually translate in practice to "buy more LSM books and regurgitate more LSM material". Totally sickening.

This is very serious. This, in my estimation, is a frightening substition, a slight of hand perpetrated on the body of Christ. Was it leastofthese who said earlier that no member of the LC would claim or admit to idolizing Lee. But here it is in print. According to their own mandates and ministry, the light comes from the man, Lee and the ministry. Without the man, there is no light. How this flies in the face of Gods' word! Jesus is the light. The word is the lamp to our feet. This is the way I see Lee and the ministry have become objects of idolatry. Not that a christian in the LC would admit to such a thing, but the reality of it is there. Perhaps they would not willingly fall into such idolatry, but they have been beguiled. Honestly, how scary. The saints I knew personally were genuine believers, but it seems like they are under a spell.....

byHismercy

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I was floored. Absolutely unbelievable, really, I just cannot believe it. If you do not follow Witness Lee and Witness Lee alone you are "void of light and revelation and are not serving according to [the Lord's] vision"?

To those in the LSM churches - do you have a Christian that you know, trust, and admire as a child of God (a true believer) that does not meet with the "Local Churches"? Maybe family, friend, neighbor, co-worker?

I would challenge you to share with them the "afaithfulword" website, bring them to your church and let them experience the hold that the LSM has on the body of believers.

Please share your experience on this site - it will be helpful for others.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

What is your definition of "birthright" here?

Specifically, you are the recipient of the recovered truth concerning Zech 12:1... the significance of man's spirit juxtaposed in a verse with the most powerful act of creation.... that of the heavens and the earth. You are part of a group whose leader embraced that teaching and learned it from someone else.

It's now in your hands.

It's fine if you reject that teaching or if the Lord has shown you something more.... if so, describe it. There is no issue to disagree or to clarify...... if you disagree then before the Lord explain why. That's ok, even healthy.

However, to ridicule the teaching with mocking is a spiritual version of Esau selling his inheritance for a bowl of porridge. What is the "porridge" you desire here?

Treasure the light you have received through others whose shoulders you are standing on. They paid a price and you are the beneficiary. If you have received new light then share it. Spiritual progress is determined how you handle the light that the Lord has entrusted to you already.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Treasure the light you have received through others whose shoulders you are standing on. They paid a price and you are the beneficiary. If you have received new light then share it. Spiritual progress is determined how you handle the light that the Lord has entrusted to you already.

Drake

Of all the ministries on earth, LSM has failed the worst on this point. They cling to their ministry of condemnation upon the body of Christ. They embrace arrogant exclusivism on a daily basis. They quarantine ones like Titus Chu whose teachings match their own 99.4% of the time. They excommunicate ones like John Ingalls whose only crime was protecting the saints from the ravages of the predator Philip Lee.

Drake, you really need to rethink LSM's spiritual progress by how you handle the light that the Lord has entrusted to you already.

Like you said, "It's now in your hands."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Specifically, you are the recipient of the recovered truth concerning Zech 12:1... the significance of man's spirit juxtaposed in a verse with the most powerful act of creation.... that of the heavens and the earth. You are part of a group whose leader embraced that teaching and learned it from someone else.

Oh don't get me going bro Drake. Are you trying to get me in trouble?

Great verse in Zech. Thanks for the reminder. Also for some pretty darn good pontificating. Did I detect a Lee spirit? Like Kangas have you picked up Lee mannerism's? and phraseologies?

But Zech says it (to Jerusalem btw, the center of the universe ... haha). Zech puts your spirit as the center of the universe. Not ... btw ... Witness Lee ... or Nee ... or any other of the "fallen." Read YOUR spirit. That's your so called "Spiritual progress."

It's a pitfall to make Witness Lee the center of God's universe. That makes him a personality cult leader. And you a personality cult follower. And that's not Spiritual progress.

Great post bro ... thanks.

Harold

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Zech puts your spirit as the center of the universe. Not ... btw ... Witness Lee ... or Nee ... or any other of the "fallen." Read YOUR spirit.

That's correct..... except every man but One is fallen.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

Spiritual progress is determined how you handle the light that the Lord has entrusted to you already.

Oh, don't read too much into what I said, bro - just a lighthearted observation (hence the funny Spurgeon quote about smoking something to the glory of God) . . . nothing more. We're good.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

That's correct..... except every man but One is fallen.

Drake

Amen bro Drake ...

[Weighingin]

Originally Posted by awareness

Amen bro Drake ...

I had brought up Zechariah 12:1 to show that man had a major importance in the universe due to his spirit being grouped with the heavens and foundation of the earth.
Regarding the "I'm a man" hymn, I looked it up and understood my thought at the time. The second stanza begins: "Christ lives in me, He's the meaning of my human life." So my realization would have been, because of Christ, I'm the center of the universe. But certainly, as shown through all the types and the NT
speaking, Christ is the center and meaning of the universe.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

However, to ridicule the teaching with mocking is a spiritual version of Esau selling his inheritance for a bowl of porridge. What is the "porridge" you desire here

You see the irony (or absurdity - guess depends on who you ask) right?

Witness formed a church with this as a foundation, center point, pillar of his ministry.

[eDh22]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

To those in the LSM churches - do you have a Christian that you know, trust, and admire as a child of God (a true believer) that does not meet with the "Local Churches"? Maybe family, friend, neighbor, co-worker?

I would challenge you to share with them the "afaithfulword" website, bring them to your church and let them experience the hold that the LSM has on the body of believers.

Please share your experience on this site - it will be helpful for others.

I had not previously read through the Faithful Word website. Yikes!!! How appalling. It makes it clear to me that LR movement had cut itself off quite some time ago: "In 1986 Brother Lee issued a clear call for all of the serving ones participating in the ministry and leadership among the churches in the Lord's recovery to be restricted in one publication." The image of a brackish backwater with little-to-no flow comes to mind.

I finally left the LCs because I was so starved for more, the big universe beyond one familiar but limited and idiosyncratic source. How silly, how foolish, to remain for so long. Got to keep reminding ourselves - how lovely every day NOW

[eDh22]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

This is such a key point, especially for those trapped in the LSM local churches. Pastor Brett down at the Community Church, in fact, says he isn’t today’s Paul, he tries to reconcile families, challenges you to read other resources, appreciates feedback and discussion - however imperfectly.

Thank you for this word. There was a lot that I truly enjoyed in WL's ministry, I did I did. And there was a lot that I thought was a bit off the wall and at odds with the Word. I learned to take some and leave some, guided by the Word and the Spirit. But when you only have one source, that left me staring off at the beige walls of the meeting hall for large periods of time when I was feeling things were a bit off the wall.

I still apply my, granted limited, discernment when receiving other ministers today, whose ministries I similarly see as sometimes a bit all over the page. But I'm seeing and being so much more than before. I am spiritually challenged, enlivened, and am experiencing growth with the greater body of my brothers and sisters.

[Sons to Glory!]

Yeah, there are very few I hear who have all the picture, to be sure! The main thing is to take what there is of Christ from any message from ANY source!

For instance, I can now listen to someone's message and even if they are presenting it in an Old Covenant way (conveying something I must do or live up to), as long as they are at least speaking the word (and not just a bunch of man-made psychology) I find the Spirit can speak through the word to me.

I wish there was a disclaimer at the end of every message that said something like: "Examine the things you have heard before the Lord and be good Bereans in looking at scripture to see if these things are true. And regardless of what you heard, you should not now expect to do or be ANYTHING, except this - a child of God in which the Spirit of Christ is operating - it's only through letting His life operate in you daily that you have any hope whatsoever!"

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yeah, there are very few I hear who have all the picture, to be sure! The main thing is to take what there is of Christ from any message from ANY source!

One of the discordant features in LC-land is that what Watchman Nee is touted for doing, i.e. drawing from many narrative streams in Christianity, is now forbidden. Go figure.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

One of the discordant features in LC-land is that what Watchman Nee is touted for doing, i.e. drawing from many narrative streams in Christianity, is now forbidden. Go figure.

We should also note that J. N. Darby and company violated all of the original Brethren principles when he decided to axe Newton and Mueller.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We should also note that J. N. Darby and company violated all of the original Brethren principles when he decided to axe Newton and Mueller.

And good ol' Adam (though dead) just keeps rollin' along! These brothers were looking to Christ, but rather some teaching. (and, as we've noted over & over, so too the so-called "ground of oneness" teaching just becomes another point of fleshly division)

[JJ]

Can anyone explain to me how Zech 12:1 shows the spirit of man as the center of the universe?

I did a Bible search on the words “center of the universe” and came up empty. A search on the word “center” found the following http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=Center
A better case can be made for God’s throne and the lamb of God being the center of the universe.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

Can anyone explain to me how Zech 12:1 shows the spirit of man as the center of the universe?

God on His throne is the only "center of the universe."

This is just another one of those "HyperboLee," and while certainly fine on the podium to make a point, it should not be elevated to the status of an actual teaching. But like so many other "Lee-isms," it was deemed to be "anointed from on high," and thus officially "recovered."

Thus we have every LC member gleefully singing,

"Oh I'm a man --
I'm the meaning of the universe;
"Yes, I'm a man --
I'm the meaning of the universe;
God made me such,
I am so much;
I'm the center and the meaning of the universe." (Hymns #1293)

Kind of like when they hits the streets after a meeting, "I am a baby god!!!"

Teachings like these highlight Lee's excessive view of himself, really.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by JJ

Can anyone explain to me how Zech 12:1 shows the spirit of man as the center of the universe?

That would be on me, since I made the claim. I extrapolated it from :

"the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him"

Never mind that back then they believed the earth was the center of "the cosmos," our spirit is the center of everything. It's how the universe, and all in it, is "seen" by us. It's our center, and what relates to everything in our life, and in the universe. It's the center of our universe ; the only universe that exists to us personally.

That's the best I can do brother. The word "universe" is not in the Bible.

I could say more on this, but only on Alternative Views. It has to do with my avatar name, awareness.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

God on His throne is the only "center of the universe."
Teachings like these highlight Lee's excessive view of himself, really.

Yup. Another teaching that mis-aimed concerning the faith

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

God on His throne is the only "center of the universe."

Lee couldn't possibly have known such a thing. He didn't get it from the Bible. And despite the fact that his followers believed that Lee had a hotline to God, he didn't.

Does the universe even have a center? Does it have edges? We don't know. Maybe the Big Bang is the center. We don't know that either.

This is nothing but folly.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by JJ

Can anyone explain to me how Zech 12:1 shows the spirit of man as the center of the universe?

"Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him . . ." While probably not saying man is the center of the universe, this passage does elevate man's spirit to at least something of an equivalent with the other two things mentioned - not a small thing! And the progression of things mentioned in the verse is also interesting.

I just wouldn't want to see our proverbial pendulum swing too far in the other direction . . . that is in accordance with: "What is man that You are mindful of him?" (I think this question appears at least 4 times in scripture)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Lee couldn't possibly have known such a thing. He didn't get it from the Bible. And despite the fact that his followers believed that Lee had a hotline to God, he didn't. Does the universe even have a center? Does it have edges? We don't know. Maybe the Big Bang is the center. We don't know that either. This is nothing but folly.

awareness,

Not physical center...... rather, center of purpose or mission or plan.

Drake

[awareness]

Good point Drake ... and possible ... maybe that's what the throne symbolizes.

[Drake]

Brother Nee speculated that God's throne may be physically located in the "Swan" constellation. He gives several scripture references why he leaned in that direction.

However, as pertains to man's spirit being the center of the universe (Zech 12:1) ... I think it is one of purpose, mission, ... also its a matter in the spiritual realm.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Nee speculated that God's throne may be physically located in the "Swan" constellation.

Sorry for busting out laughing at brother Nee.

Originally Posted by Drake

However, as pertains to man's spirit being the center of the universe (Zech 12:1) ... I think it is one of purpose, mission, ... also its a matter in the spiritual realm.

Within man's spirit is the awareness reading these words at the moment. That awareness, that's reading these words, is our center of virtually everything. Therefore, to each and every one of us, our spirit is the center of the universe.

Of course, it's no more the center of the universe than the Throne is in the Swan constellation. But it is the center of the universe as far as each and everyone of us is concerned, in our relationship to the universe.

Our spirit/awareness is our center of everything.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Nee speculated that God's throne may be physically located in the "Swan" constellation.

I've never heard/read that. Do you remember where I can find it in his writing? Or at least which verses he used to arrive at that idea?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

I've never heard/read that. Do you remember where I can find it in his writing? Or at least which verses he used to arrive at that idea?

Speculation.

The Swan Constellation is also known as the Northern Cross.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

I've never heard/read that. Do you remember where I can find it in his writing? Or at least which verses he used to arrive at that idea?

Hi ABF,

The Word of the.Cross. Should be Chapter 6.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Hi ABF,

The Word of the.Cross. Should be Chapter 6.

Drake

Now I've got the itch. I searched the whole book for "swan" and "constellation," and found nothing.

So where did Nee say it? Maybe it's been scrubbed.

And great pix bro Ohio. By the way, the stars in the swan constellation aren't anywhere related to each other. They take their shape when seen from earth.

That's why I laughed at Nee's remark. There's no actual center to the stars in the swan constellation. They aren't all stars.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Now I've got the itch. I searched the whole book for "swan" and "constellation," and found nothing.

So where did Nee say it? Maybe it's been scrubbed.

And great pix bro Ohio. By the way, the stars in the swan constellation aren't anywhere related to each other. They take their shape when seen from earth.

That's why I laughed at Nee's remark. There's no actual center to the stars in the swan constellation. They aren't all stars.

Personally, I don't think the throne of God is in any physical location.

God and the angels and other witnesses are unseen, yet they are watching us all the time. See Hebrews 12.1

My apologies to RecoveringCK, since we have taken this thread into the stratosphere.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Now I've got the itch. I searched the whole book for "swan" and "constellation," and found nothing.

So where did Nee say it? Maybe it's been scrubbed.

And great pix bro Ohio. By the way, the stars in the swan constellation aren't anywhere related to each other. They take their shape when seen from earth.

That's why I laughed at Nee's remark. There's no actual center to the stars in the swan constellation. They aren't all stars.

Hmmm

Ok. Go to Lsm.org

Click the online publications button.

In the search box type. “Swan”

Should get you there

Drake

[Ohio]

Here is the referenced section in Nee's book ...

The earth's geographic and magnetic poles both point toward the north. How wonderful it is! Who can know the reason why the compass always points towards the north? In the Constellation of the Swan in the north, there is a place where the surroundings are all stars, yet this space is without any star. This empty space is known by some astronomers as the "dark nebula" or by others as the "rift of the sky." Job 26:7 says, "He [God] stretcheth out the north over the empty place." Can this "empty place" not be the same as the "rift"? If the uttermost part of the north is in the midst of this, then should heaven not also be in it? We will certainly find out one day!

Job 26:7 is another good proof of heaven being in the uttermost part of the north. "He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, / and hangeth the earth upon nothing." Here, "the earth" and "the north" are in opposition. "Nothing" refers to the atmospheric air enveloping the earth. If "nothing" means the atmosphere, then the empty place over which the north is placed cannot be the same atmosphere. It must be where heaven is. Heaven is therefore in the north.

Astronomers tell us that the entire solar system—the sun, the planets, and the earth—are all traveling toward this "rift" at a velocity of more than twenty miles a second! That is equivalent to almost 72,000 miles per hour! Why would our Lord allow the inhabited earth to travel toward the north? Who can say there is no purpose in this phenomenon?

Today the theory of heaven being a definite place has been under numerous attacks and mockings. What we have studied in this book is not of utmost importance. The important thing is to believe that there is a place called heaven.

Heaven is a place prepared for those who are prepared. Do you desire this? Are you prepared for it?

[recoveringCK]

Originally Posted by Ohio

My apologies to RecoveringCK, since we have taken this thread into the stratosphere.

The stratosphere is on our way to the 3rd heaven were god lives in the Swan constellation, Cygnus, anyway. Interesting. Entertaining.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

The stratosphere is on our way to the 3rd heaven were god lives in the Swan constellation, Cygnus, anyway. Interesting. Entertaining.

Interesting and entertaining cuz it's out beyond the stratosphere into the stars far far away ; and of vastly divergent distances from each other. Nevertheless, being in the north pole area it was seen back when the books of the Bible were written, back when eye sight could only see around 5000 stars in the sky, back when asterisms were being freely drawn like seeing images in the clouds, cuz the skies were the only source of entertainment back then ... that and telling stories around campfires.

[DistantStar]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"O I’m a man — I’m the meaning of the universe God made me such, I am so much; I’m the center and the meaning of the universe.". Of course these lyrics came directly from Witness Lee's teachings regarding the church, and was actually one of the pillars of Lee's overall ministry. We were "becoming God in life and nature" after all.

I haven't been on this forum in a while. Can you show me where those lyrics were sung? And where they said we become God in nature? That's the most blasphemous thing someone could possibly say.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by DistantStar

I haven't been on this forum in a while. Can you show me where those lyrics were sung? And where they said we become God in nature? That's the most blasphemous thing someone could possibly say.

Peter blasphemed?

Never considered that. Please explain.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by DistantStar

I haven't been on this forum in a while. Can you show me where those lyrics were sung?

Post #52 may help.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Peter blasphemed?

Never considered that. Please explain.

Drake

Peter said we are "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1.4)

Witness Lee distorted this by saying, "we become God in nature."

[DistantStar]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thus we have every LC member gleefully singing,

"Oh I'm a man --
I'm the meaning of the universe;
"Yes, I'm a man --
I'm the meaning of the universe;
God made me such,
I am so much;
I'm the center and the meaning of the universe." (Hymns #1293)

Kind of like when they hits the streets after a meeting, "I am a baby god!!!"

Originally Posted by Ohio

Peter said we are "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1.4)

Witness Lee distorted this by saying, "we become God in nature."

Thanks. I always understood it in the sense of sharing. We might be able to appreciate that nature, and enjoy the benefits thereof (in the sense that God allows us to appreciate him), but that's not the same as us becoming that nature.

[awareness]

"Oh I'm a man --
I'm the meaning of the universe;
"Yes, I'm a man --
I'm the meaning of the universe;
God made me such,
I am so much;
I'm the center and the meaning of the universe." (Hymns #1293)

Well when you put it that way, I take back that I said our spirit is the center of the universe.