Finally I decided to not join Full time training.

[Truthseeker]

Few months ago, I wrote some tread concerning pressure on full time training by some LCers. I have some trouble with its dress code because I have my preference style of dressing. In disguise of one new man, dress code (which asks everyone to dress the same ) is unbiblical and pro-conformity. They said I could wear my favorite dresses at weekend (where there is no training). First, I decided to join FTTM because of some spirits which pressed meto do so. But in my inner life, it notified me that somethingis weird and abnormal. Some things isn't of divine life and nature but of human effort and regulations. Lastly, one day before my departure to FTTM center, I decided to not go to that legalistic training. This is my final solution now.

By Truthseeker- "Lastly, one day before my departure to FTTM center, I decided to not go to that legalistic training. "

What is FTTM?

[UntoHim]

I believe Truthseeker is referring to Full Time Training Malaysia FTTMY.Org or maybe Full Time Training Malabon Philippines FTTMALABON.Org
-

[aron]

Key words: "pressure" and "conform". It is a human effort, with a human result.

It is the off-shoot of a focus on things other than Jesus Christ. Believe me, learning of him is a full-time, life-long affair, and serving Him as Master, King, Teacher and Lord is an unfolding joy.

Instead here we see a spirit sent in to spy out our liberty in Christ Jesus, and to bring us into slavery again.

[awareness]

It's clear to me that the FTT is a indoctrination into their mind control.

[Truthseeker]

Full-time training of middle aged

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Few months ago, I wrote some tread concerning pressure on full time training by some LCers. I have some trouble with its dress code because I have my preference style of dressing. In disguise of one new man, dress code (which asks everyone to dress the same ) is unbiblical and pro-conformity. They said I could wear my favorite dresses at weekend (where there is no training). First, I decided to join FTTM because of some spirits which pressed meto do so. But in my inner life, it notified me that somethingis weird and abnormal. Some things isn't of divine life and nature but of human effort and regulations. Lastly, one day before my departure to FTTM center, I decided to not go to that legalistic training. This is my final solution now.

Based on your considerations above I believe your decision is best for all concerned.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Key words: "pressure" and "conform". . . here we see a spirit sent in to spy out our liberty in Christ Jesus, and to bring us into slavery again. cf Galatians 2:4

An emphasis on things other than Jesus the crucified and resurrected Lord and Savior isn't a necessary addition to our gospel and our faith but a distraction from it.

Teaching that's focused on the Body is a distraction from Christ. The Body exists only as much as it's focused on (connected to) its Head, which is Christ. No more and no less - as soon as it's consideration becomes Itself, the enemy comes in. The house-of-mirrors game begins. The Body quickly becomes Abomination and Desolation. The Fall re-asserts itself.

The Bride only should see the Husband; as soon as the Bride begins to regard Herself, "Here I sit a Queen" she's bound for Satan's Land of Delusion. See the Harlot in Revelation 17 - full of "High Peak" claims. Zero reality.

The Church begins to teach its members to "see the Church" instead of it's Shepherd and Savior, and the Church begins to decay. Note the RCC and Anglicans both used such ideational strongholds as fulcrums to leverage the lives and thoughts and purses of so many.

This supposed Recovery which promotes its own teachings and supposed High Peak Truths, is merely fronting an all-too-human ministry, which is a front for an all-too-human minister, who's fronting a fallen spirit that wants to spy out our liberty in Christ Jesus and bring us back into subjection again.

So we're duped to focus on "the ground" or "the oneness" instead of Jesus Christ, and what comes along with this? Ancillary teachings sprout like "one unique ministry per age" and "one deputy God" and "handing over". Comes with the territory (pun intended). And when the self-appointed Guru siphons off church funds for his own children, some of whom are arguably rather unspiritual, we'll shrug and say, "Hey, nobody's perfect." And when the promoted High Peak Teaching, say "God's Economy", necessitates panning scripture as fallen human concepts in order to cohere, or conversely sees the OT prophet typifying "NT believers enjoying Grace", while ignoring the clear NT exegetical precedent of the Obedient Son of Man restoring humanity, we have a big hole in the interpreted scripture where Jesus should be. Jesus should be our unwavering focus but He's nowhere in sight here - either "NT believers enjoying grace" or "merely David's mixed sentiments".

And we're supposed to conform to that?

Btw, I looked in the RecV and found the footnote in Revelation 1:20 saying the local assemblies have to be "absolutely identical" with "no differences whatever" . . what's it based on? The footnote says it's because the seven lampstands are "absolutely identical". Really? Where does scripture say that? Did you ever see a calyx? Or a pomegranite? Or nets of lilies? Do you think the two pillars Jachin and Boaz were "absolutely identical"? Or the twelve oxen holding Solomon's Sea of Bronze? Everything of life has variation. Did the Four Living Creatures look identical? Even, "star differs from star in glory". The only thing is, here on earth, when we Christians talk of differerentiation and variation, with the fall in Genesis 3 in mind, we'd wisely take the least place; Jesus taught this, repeatedly. But instead we see teachings come forth as props and levers for ones with ambition, eager to be Spiritual Giants, and to be First in the Church.

And we're supposed to be subject to this fiasco? To submit?

The Full Time Training is a trap made by those who want to be great in this age. The more people they can put under them, the better they feel about themselves. But they will not be great in the next age. Jesus made this abundantly clear - this is the way of the gentiles, not the Way to the kingdom of God. They'll get their biography read into the Congressional Record, they'll get a big Tombstone. They have their reward.

The Full Time Training says that the biblical truth is, Women Can't Teach. Yet this position ignores that the movement itself was founded by Margaret Barber teaching Watchman Nee. She had no "head covering". . . not to mention Madame Guyon, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Peace Wang, Dora Yu, Ruth Lee, Mary MacDonald, and so forth - "close co-workers" and "fellow builders" all. This ministry of the Kingdom of Self teaches out of both sides of its mouth, and we're supposed to ignore these glaring discrepancies? "Just be simple" was the song we used to sing - yeah, it takes a lot of training to get that simple. A lot of training in yielding to continued pressure. Training in thought-suppression. Training in brainlessness.

Galatians 2:5 "to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you"

[aron]

Post #8, put more simply, is this: the Church, the Building, the Bride, and the Body have a reality that is derivative of and relational to the One Who Is. Pursuing them as ontological entities in their own right is to chase ghosts and vapours. Same with "enjoying grace" or "oneness" or any such. One may experience such blessings but only if one forgets them completely and dedicates all one's attention on Jesus Christ.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Based on your considerations above I believe your decision is best for all concerned.

Drake

What about Truthseekers comments make you say that? Why would it be best for them not to go? Why is it better for the FTTM that they don’t attend?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

What about Truthseekers comments make you say that? Why would it be best for them not to go? Why is it better for the FTTM that they don’t attend?

LofT,

It’s obvious. If not to you, then tell us why you think it would be better for her to go in spite of her misgivings.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT,

It’s obvious. If not to you, then tell us why you think it would be better for her to go in spite of her misgivings.

Drake

What is obvious Drake?

*edit* I think you know that I wouldn’t suggest that anyone attend the FTT and be subjected to the teaching of Witness Lee and the culture of the LSM. So I guess that is how I’d answer your question - er - request.

[Trapped]

While the FTT in question here is not the FTTA, I do feel like I need to mention that the FTT itself (at least the FTTA, from which I assume most of the practices and rules of the other FTT's are derived) is very clear that not everyone should go (https://www.ftta.org/prospective-tra...ung-people.php)

I know there may be pressure from saints or elders or whoever, I understand and do not deny that that exists in some places. But the FTTA website, for example, is very clear that people should not go to "fix up" your spiritual life, or because your parents or serving ones want you to go, or because other people you want to hang out with are going.

It clearly states, without judgment, that the full-time training is not for everybody. To me, another way of saying "don't go just because your parents or serving ones want you to" is "if YOU don't want to go, don't go!", or "only go if you WANT to go!"

I say this never having gone myself and also having gone through the time of feeling pressured to go, and even having "consecrated" myself to go as a young person from the co-workers having the young people stand up and make a show of being committed to go (my memory fails me but I think it was possibly during a "young adults" time in the semi-annual trainings years ago). I felt bad for years that I didn't make good on my consecration until I realized that I didn't know at the time what I was consecrating myself to as an impressionable young person, and it wasn't the Lord asking me to consecrate myself.

I have plenty of issues with many of the things the training does (rules, regulations, atmosphere, curriculum of Nee/Lee only, I could say many things) and claims (producing normal functioning members, constituting with the truth). But just like any other institution, it can run how it wants to run, within the law, and the rules and regulations are admittedly very clear going in. Additionally, the doors are pretty wide open to attend short-term so you know what you are getting into, and doing so is encouraged, at least where I've been, even many states away from California.

If you don't want to go, or more importantly don't feel led of the Lord to go, don't go. And be at peace.

[leastofthese]

If you believe, like the FTT website says, that “we are still strongly persuaded that there is no better place for a seeking brother or sister in the Lord's recovery than the Full-time Training.” Then a few “dumb” rules about dress code should be the least of your concerns. If you’re intent on pursuing the Lord and are hung up on the fact that you can’t wear your favorite clothes- it may be time to reevaluate the desires of your heart. What is most important to you? We are made to live in relationship with our Creator and glorify Him on earth.

The danger doesn’t lie in whether you feel like going or if you like all the rules - the danger with the FTT is the teaching and leadership you’d be subjected t to.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

The danger doesn’t lie in whether you feel like going or if you like all the rules - the danger with the FTT is the teaching and leadership you’d be subjected to.

Before LSM quarantined TC and the Ohio LC's, they would use the FTTA to sow seeds of suspicion into the young people under their care about the leadership in the Midwest. These YP would return to their families and host LC's with suspicions about them, as if we were their "enemy."

We then learned -- albeit slowly -- that the Blendeds had a pernicious agenda with the FTTA against TC. They are not on the up-n-up. Some of their agents had impure motives. Their program was not just about "Christ and the church," rather they were "sheep-stealers." No other way to describe it. In some cases it seemed they cared nothing for these young people, only that they were "ruined" for the Ohio LC's. Some of this occurred while WL was still alive, but it worsened after his death.

Eventually the decision was made not to publicly promote the FTTA any longer in the Midwest. We would not prevent any YP from going, neither would we encourage them. This also became the attitude towards all of their "Feasts." Before the Quarantine, the war against us was covert, afterwards it became overt. And mean-spirited. The Blendeds have the attitude that if they abuse and mistreat you, then you will become more compliant. WL got away with that, but the Blendeds could not.

[UntoHim]

We all owe Truthseeker an apology (especially me) for highjacking his important thread.
The posts related to other topics have been moved to another newly created thread entitled
"Chinese/Asian Influence on The Local Church"

-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

We all owe Truthseeker an apology (especially me) for highjacking his important thread.
The posts related to other topics have been moved to another newly created thread entitled
"Chinese/Asian Influence on The Local Church"

-

Oh, that's what's going on - thanks!

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

If you believe, like the FTT website says, that “we are still strongly persuaded that there is no better place for a seeking brother or sister in the Lord's recovery than the Full-time Training.” Then a few “dumb” rules about dress code should be the least of your concerns. If you’re intent on pursuing the Lord and are hung up on the fact that you can’t wear your favorite clothes- it may be time to reevaluate the desires of your heart. What is most important to you? We are made to live in relationship with our Creator and glorify Him on earth.

The danger doesn’t lie in whether you feel like going or if you like all the rules - the danger with the FTT is the teaching and leadership you’d be subjected t to.

It is a matter of consecration to the Lord and when one is considering the Training there will be, and should be an evaluation between the person and the Lord. Those considerations will likely be different for each one. With some it may be giving up a wardrobe for 5 days a week. With others maybe it is the rules and regulations, the structure, the lack of individual freedom. There may be a personal reason or something else. However, if a person chooses not to go they are no less a Christian, no less a member of the a Body if Christ, no less loved, and every bit as deserving of the honor and respect bestowed on every member of Christ by the Lord Himself.

Therefore, it doesn't matter if she didnt want to go because of her clothing, her misgivings, or because she wanted to go bowling every night. The FTT is a voluntary training. The FTT meetings are not the local church meetings. The FTT does not affect ones standing in the local church. If one decides to go or not to go it should be done with eyes wide open.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

It is a matter of consecration to the Lord and when one is considering the Training there will be, and should be an evaluation between the person and the Lord. Those considerations will likely be different for each one. With some it may be giving up a wardrobe for 5 days a week. With others maybe it is the rules and regulations, the structure, the lack of individual freedom. There may be a personal reason or something else. However, if a person chooses not to go they are no less a Christian, no less a member of the a Body if Christ, no less loved, and every bit as deserving of the honor and respect bestowed on every member of Christ by the Lord Himself.

Therefore, it doesn't matter if she didnt want to go because of her clothing, her misgivings, or because she wanted to go bowling every night. The FTT is a voluntary training.

Drake

There sure is a lot of pressure on young people to make that "voluntary" decision.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There sure is a lot of pressure on young people to make that "voluntary" decision.

I have had pressured on that too, Ohio. It has been a sort of campaign advertising on every young people's gathering to force them to make voluntary vows for FTT. It is antithetical to what Drake said that is a matter of consecration between them and the Lord which is NOT the case at all.

As for now I'm having difficulties to avoid this problem that granny is going to arrive home from the US this August. She will force me to send to the FTTMA otherwise persecution is inevitably certain.

Since what are these so-called Christians on Campus, a student religious organization, be a bias-free, inclusive Christian club; encompassing students from various denominational persuasions that at the end of their graduation they are being instilled in their minds to be trained at the FTT? Reprogramming is the end result with its localism drug intake. Isn't that sheep stealing? Oh boy I bet the LC would objectly reply, then, "Are those your sheep?"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I have had pressured on that too, Ohio. It has been a sort of campaign advertising on every young people's gathering to force them to make voluntary vows for FTT. It is antithetical to what Drake said that is a matter of consecration between them and the Lord which is NOT the case at all.

As for now I'm having difficulties to avoid this problem that granny is going to arrive home from the US this August. She will force me to send to the FTTMA otherwise persecution is inevitably certain.

Since what are these so-called Christians on Campus, a student religious organization, be a bias-free, inclusive Christian club; encompassing students from various denominational persuasions that at the end of their graduation they are being instilled in their minds to be trained at the FTT? Reprogramming is the end result with its localism drug intake. Isn't that sheep stealing? Oh boy I bet the LC would reply, then, "Are those your sheep?"

LSM has long used every one of their gatherings to promote the FTT. The pressures are not just on the young people, but upon their families too. Decades ago we would sing "Home, home, in the church, here we have ended our search ".

In the late 80's, during that horrible movement called the "New Way," Lee and Company successfully orchestrated a paradigm shift. Our destination was changed from the church to the ministry, a serious paradigm shift. Being a functioning member of some LC was no longer adequate, we needed "training," or should I say an entire system of ministry indoctrination, which is really a system of error. Training promotionals went thru the roof. Everybody had to get on board, or you would be told to leave, literally. Even some families have pressured their own to attend, similar to the Mormons.

A few regions like the Midwest, Brazil, NYC, etc. being so large were allowed to continue as a kind of LSM-Lite. We were not "absolute" for the ministry, but sufficiently on board to get a pass. This all changed when Benson Phillips took over and decided to quarantine Brazil and the Midwest.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I have had pressured on that too, Ohio. It has been a sort of campaign advertising on every young people's gathering to force them to make voluntary vows for FTT. It is antithetical to what Drake said that is a matter of consecration between them and the Lord which is NOT the case at all.

As for now I'm having difficulties to avoid this problem that granny is going to arrive home from the US this August. She will force me to send to the FTTMA otherwise persecution is inevitably certain.

Since what are these so-called Christians on Campus, a student religious organization, be a bias-free, inclusive Christian club; encompassing students from various denominational persuasions that at the end of their graduation they are being instilled in their minds to be trained at the FTT? Reprogramming is the end result with its localism drug intake. Isn't that sheep stealing? Oh boy I bet the LC would objectly reply, then, "Are those your sheep?"

Kevin,

The FTT Is voluntary, pressure from granny notwithstanding.

But, let me be clear.... it is a very good training for biblical studies, practical christian living, and character training for those who desire to work for the Lord. I've observed scruffy and rough transition to usefulness.

it would be good for anyone... yet, it is not for everyone...


Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kevin,

The FTT Is voluntary, pressure from granny notwithstanding.

The FTT is voluntary, pressure from elders, families, church members, "serving ones", and traveling salesmen from the LSM notwithstanding.

My observation is that in Asian cultures there's a pattern of more compliance of young persons, from children to young adults to family pressure - parents and grandparents - than western culture. Thus somewhat explaining why the demographic needle at the FTT has moved so markedly in the past 20 years. One group has more recourse to "go their own way", while the second group has little. With Asian children, family expectations are reinforced by cultural expectations.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kevin,

The FTT Is voluntary, pressure from granny notwithstanding.

But, let me be clear.... it is a very good training for biblical studies, practical christian living, and character training for those who desire to work for the Lord. I've observed scruffy and rough transition to usefulness.

it would be good for anyone... yet, it is not for everyone... Drake

Here is an area where I would have to disagree, based on my own experience and that of many young people who had gone thru LSM's training. Let me just say this up front -- the goal of LSM's training is not primarily the growth and edification of the attendant believer. The goal of the FTT is loyal foot-soldiers and future leaders for LSM's use.

For example, if the FTT placed the individuals first, then they would never turn these ones against those that raised him or her from birth. They would never sow suspicions into these young people towards other LC leaders not on the LSM payroll. Undermining the established authority structure in a young person's life (i.e. parents, other adults, elders, workers, etc.) can never be good for their character development, but LSM often has done exactly this.

[Kevin]

I hate to say it, but LC elders tend to be legalistic in their approach to the saints when they came from the two-week training. Some impose others to wear white polo shirt and black pants, and do other uniformity disciplines, especially when you are a young people coordinator.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I hate to say it, but LC elders tend to be legalistic in their approach to the saints when they came from the training for two weeks. Some who impose others to wear white polo shirt and black pants, and do other uniformity disciplines, especially when you are a young people coordinator.

Kevin,

Which training?

Are you saying that trainees from the FTT came back... on a break for two weeks and the elders forced everyone else to wear white polo and black pants? Probably i misunderstood what you were saying.

Drake

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kevin,

Which training?

Are you saying that trainees from the FTT came back... on a break for two weeks and the elders forced everyone else to wear white polo and black pants? Probably i misunderstood what you were saying.

Drake

Sorry, I didn't see that mistake I wrote. I was diverting on the issue of elders who came from the two-week training imposed the rules on the saints from the training.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kevin,

Which training?

Drake

The Two-week training Middle Age

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Sorry, I didn't see that mistake I wrote. I was diverting on the issue of elders who came from the two-week training imposed the rules on the saints from the training.

One elder from the pulpit indirectly spoke an insult to my parents who got late on the Lord's Day meeting because that's what he had learned from his training. Time is gold.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Sorry, I didn't see that mistake I wrote. I was diverting on the issue of elders who came from the two-week training imposed the rules on the saints from the training.

Np. I see. elders went to the 2 week training, then they came back, and then imposed on the saints to wear white polos and black slacks. Just brothers I assume... all brothers or selected brothers?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Kevin

One elder from the pulpit indirectly spoke an insult to my parents who got late on the Lord's Day meeting because that's what he had learned from his training. Time is gold.

Many, many, many FTT attendants received a spirit of criticism from the LSM trainings.

Not good for "building up."

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Drake

Np. I see. elders went to the 2 week training, then they came back, and then imposed on the saints to wear white polos and black slacks. Just brothers I assume... all brothers or selected brothers?

Youth coordinators and serving ones. It only happens when they came back on fire. Because according to them the church life is equivalent to trainings.

High school and college students are under constant pressure to get trained by the LC. Here is one example:

Every summer, the college training provides a rich opportunity for the Lord to gain more ground in our students, including those who just graduated from high school. These trainings have greatly influenced our students’ personal pursuit, church life, and involvement with the gospel work on their campuses. Please pray that the Lord would overcome all obstacles and release our college saints to attend this special time of training. This year’s college training is July 13-19 at Camp Penuel. The topic will be “A New Heart and a New Spirit.”

http://www.collegetraining.org

The Summer School of Truth ( Topic: Church -- The Vision and Building Up of the Church) will be from August 2-12 at Camp Penuel in Kingston, NY.

High school trainings and college trainings are all pushing them toward the FTT. In the LC they are not subtle about it either. And then their parents and grandparents are also putting pressure on them.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

High school and college students are under constant pressure to get trained by the LC. Here is one example:



High school trainings and college trainings are all pushing them toward the FTT. In the LC they are not subtle about it either. And then their parents and grandparents are also putting pressure on them.

For the low basement bargain price of $375.00. Only $405 if late. Sign up now, and we'll thrown in a free Witness Lee sticker.

Oh for the days when it was free. I remember eventually a "donation" of fif'ty bucks. Little did I know that, it wasn't free. It cost someone big money. Where that came from is the question. They certainly knew how to get lots of free labor. Everybody chipped in.

Back in the day when Lee wasn't "all that." ... when some free-wheeling early ones caught on to the one-church-one-city NT model ... but didn't hook their wagon to Lee ... but their fruit meant they had to still be accepted. Those were the days. The Jesus movement days. The fruit was easy pickin's back then. I think I was low hangin'.

For some obsessive neurotic reason, perchance, I like to keep up with the LC, to see what's changed down thru the years. Now, thanks to this thread, I see that they've progressed to Events, and FTT's.

That certainly wasn't what "The Recovery" meant to me. Now I must ask, recovery to what?!? Was that what the early Christian church was doing, back in the original one-church-one-city days ; Nee's and Lee's foundational model of The Recovery?

I smell something that doesn't match up to scripture. How much cognitive dissonance does it take?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Youth coordinators and serving ones. It only happens when they came back on fire. Because according to them the church life is equivalent to trainings.

Hopefully the initial enthusiasm settled down.

The trainings are for the trainees but sometimes fresh enthusiasm is misapplied to nontrainees. Usually finds equilibrium soon after.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Hopefully the initial enthusiasm settled down.

The trainings are for the trainees but sometimes fresh enthusiasm is misapplied to nontrainees. Usually finds equilibrium soon after.

Drake

Notice how the enthusiasm of young trainees is not directed towards their study of the Bible, the good news of the Gospel, or good works towards mankind, but enthusiasm to bring others under legalism and submission to the ministry.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Hopefully the initial enthusiasm settled down.

The trainings are for the trainees but sometimes fresh enthusiasm is misapplied to nontrainees. Usually finds equilibrium soon after.

Drake

Notice how the enthusiasm of young trainees is not directed towards their study of the Bible, the good news of the Gospel, or good works towards mankind, but enthusiasm to bring others under legalism and submission to the ministry.

Thanks for pointing this out, Drake.

Compare the FTT "enthusiasm" with Paul's instruction to his "trainee" Titus ... "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men; training us, that, denying ungodliness and worldly desires, we should live soberly, and righteously, and godly in this world, Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and might purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous of good works, These things teach, admonish, and reprove with authority.." (Titus 2.11-14)