Billy Graham - Tribute to Faithful Gift in the Body

[Drake]

I am opening this thread for tribute to this gift to the Body and our brother Billy Graham who passed away today.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ied/858017001/

Let us, in this thread, set aside all all rancor and argument and pay an honorable tribute either from personal experience from his crusades, his books, sermons, or your realization and knowledge of his effect in your life or the lives of others. Almost every christian has been touched or affected by Billy Graham and his ministry in some way or another.

Brother Lee shared this about this faithful servant:

"God gives faith and enlarges our heart. When our heart is large, it is easy to have living faith. Living faith enables us to receive God’s commission, God’s burden. This has everything to do with our function and our usefulness. Billy Graham was raised up by the Lord less than ten years ago and is not yet forty years old. The reason he is able to carry out his work is that he has a large heart. He is young, competent, and steady, not proud or arrogant. His large heart gives him a living faith that enables him to receive the burden of the gospel. The burden he received is from God.

Some orthodox Christians in America are unreasonable in opposing Billy Graham. Without the proper view from God, a doctrine may be dead. God asked the prophets to do things that seemed unreasonable. For example, He asked the prophet Hosea to marry a prostitute (Hosea 1:2). Hosea could only follow this command, even though he would be criticized. Some believers are opposed to Billy Graham and his crusades because even people from heretical groups attend the crusades. Billy Graham, however, cares only that people hear the gospel. He does not care who hears the gospel. He would preach the gospel even if the devil attended a crusade.

This shows that Billy Graham has an enlarged heart. He stands with God and preaches the word to whoever attends. He does not try to please people. He has living faith and receives his burden from God. The Spirit affirms his labor with a strong result and supplies him. This does not mean, however, that we should imitate him. In principle, we should receive help from others, but we are accountable to God for our work."

The Perfecting of the Saints and Building up of the House of God, Witness Lee.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

I am opening this thread for tribute to this gift to the Body and our brother Billy Graham who passed away today.

There is rejoicing in heaven as Billy Graham is received to his reward. Thanks, Drake. I will post no more in contention today in honor of our brother.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Igzy

There is rejoicing in heaven as Billy Graham is received to his reward. Thanks, Drake. I will post no more in contention today in honor of our brother.

Thank you Brother Igzy.

I will join you in that honoring.

Drake

[awareness]

A large heart indeed.

I read back in the Bush days that Dubya related this story. I paraphrase :

When I turned back to Jesus I was reading my Bible. I came out and told my mother (Barb Bush) that from what I gathered only those that believe in Jesus will be saved, and all others will go to hell.

Barb turned to one of her aids and said, get Billy Graham on the line. And in five minutes Billy was on the line.

After introductory chit-chat she told him what her son said. Billy was excellent. He said, I agree that the Bible does seem to say that. But we should be careful. We're not God, and don't know everything.

Now that's a big heart.

[Drake]

Amen Brother awareness.

Though I eventually came to the Lord in my teens through the Jesus movement, part of the "Late Great Planet Earth" gathering , in my youth I remember watching and hearing Billy Graham speak on the telly. Being just a kid, I did not fully understand what he was saying yet hearing his voice captivated me, not just because of his eloquence, but rather I felt this man was speaking something weighty and important. My parents, dyed in the wool Baptists as they say, would watch the crusades on the telly and I remember being asked one time what I thought and if I wanted to become a christian. I didn't at the time but believe that the Lord used those crusades and this brother, this gift, to sow some seeds in my heart. After I became a born again christian I was delighted to watch the crusades and touched with the many people who went down to the receive the Lord.

Truly, he was a gift to the Body, an Evangelist, according to the scriptural definition in Ephesians. No doubt, throngs of believers brought to the Lord by his ministry will greet him as he enters his reward.

Drake

[Cal]

I, too, first saw Graham on TV. I was a teenager and a non-practicing Catholic. His crusades would be broadcast and I was drawn to them. I would watch them when no one else was home, because I thought my family would think I was foolish to be interested in them.

Watching and listening to Graham, I always had a sense of awe and, frankly, something like dread. He was so uncompromising. He really gave you the sense of God's righteous requirement, only attainable by submitting to the Gospel. It scared the willikers out of me. Yet I was drawn to it. I guess he had something to do with my salvation as well. What a legacy.

[Steel]

Concerned for the salvation of my father, I bought Billy Graham's autobiography for him as I thought, given Graham's personal human history, my father would respect what Graham had to say.

My father converted from Anglicanism after divorcing from my mother to Roman Catholicism, so that he could marry his second wife. For many years my father was never much concerned about the things of God, but this began to change as he got into his '80s; and the Lord brought me into the church life (the general church life, not the narrow "Recovery" church life) I began to consider his spiritual condition. Unfortunately, the relationship between my father and myself not been good, and in his eyes my speaking to him never held much value. Which is why I thought of giving him Billy Graham's book.

It never happen though, and I still have the book in some storage box in the garage. For whatever reason, I just never found the opportunity to share my thoughts with him regarding my giving him a book on Billy Graham's life.

My father turned 96 a few weeks ago and is not well. He requires 24-hour care, and I have no idea if I'll ever be able to speak to him about his salvation as his wife is a strong Roman Catholic adherant... Although she does receive some non-Roman Catholic speaking... If it fits within (meaning, supports) her human needs. I consider this daily before the Lord.

The reason I bought Billy Graham's book is because I respect and appreciate the capacity that God graced him with, and what God accomplished in and through him during his earthlu lifetime.

Yet... As I read what Drake said in his comment (and this is in no way being written for contention, but out of a pure heart for our consideration)... This scripture came to me...

1 Corinthians 12:23-25... "And those members of the body which we consider to be less honorable, these we clothe with more abundant honor; and our uncomely members come to have more abundant comeliness,... But our comely members have no need. But God has blended the body together, giving more abundant honor to the member that lacked,... That there would be no division in the body, but that the members would have the same care for one another."

Born again brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus die every day... Should we not then, and as scripture tells us, always conduct ourselves in a manner that pays "...an honorable tribute..." to these precious saints who pass away every day.

[awareness]

Both Billy Graham and Watchman Nee had dynamic ministries. Both weren't perfect ; neither were angels. They were both as mortal and flawed as the rest of us.

But their ministries produced something powerful and lasting.

Growing up a Southern Baptist, I appreciated Billy Graham, but was never a member of his ministry. But thru Witness Lee I feel I was a member of Nee's ministry.

Alas ... Here we are today, extolling brother Billy Graham. Amen. I guess I was far enough away from Graham's ministry, to not see what I see about Nee's ministry, that I was all in for.

In the end -- maybe it's not a competition -- but whose ministry was the most powerful and lasting? Maybe the answer lies in asking, does the world see both ministries in the same way?

[bookworm]

What I appreciate about Billy Graham is his consistent emphasis on each person’s personal relationship with Jesus Christ and his consistent acknowledgment of his need as a sinner of redemption through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. This personal relationship is most important to our daily walk through this life and from this all our other relationships are possible and are healthy.

After a brother from the Local Church and I had been married for 10 years and when I discovered an obvious infidelity that had occurred on my husband’s part, I went to an elder and his wife and asked for help. I was told I had to forgive him and “get him back in the meetings.” At that point evidently all that was important was the meeting life and it was felt that as long as a person was in the meetings the “life” there would take care of everything. Of course, meeting attendance would also bolster the Local Church movement.

During the 30+ years following that time I dutifully enabled my husband but this did him no good. He never was faithful to attend meetings and apparently was unable to be faithful to the Lord and, in turn, to me. In the four years since our divorce, I’ve come to understand that my ex-husband had an antisocial personality disorder that rendered him incapable of healthy relationships.

What is sad to me is that 40 years ago I did not seek help that would have shed light on the obvious fact that my then husband did not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and, in turn, had no true relationship with me or our children. At this point he has no desire to change or to seek help. I have apologized to him for enabling him and we all continue to pray for him. Surely the Lord will one day heal and salvage him.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Drake

I am opening this thread for tribute to this gift to the Body and our brother Billy Graham who passed away today.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ied/858017001/

Let us, in this thread, set aside all all rancor and argument and pay an honorable tribute either from personal experience from his crusades, his books, sermons, or your realization and knowledge of his effect in your life or the lives of others. Almost every christian has been touched or affected by Billy Graham and his ministry in some way or another.

Brother Lee shared this about this faithful servant:

"God gives faith and enlarges our heart. When our heart is large, it is easy to have living faith. Living faith enables us to receive God’s commission, God’s burden. This has everything to do with our function and our usefulness. Billy Graham was raised up by the Lord less than ten years ago and is not yet forty years old. The reason he is able to carry out his work is that he has a large heart. He is young, competent, and steady, not proud or arrogant. His large heart gives him a living faith that enables him to receive the burden of the gospel. The burden he received is from God.

Some orthodox Christians in America are unreasonable in opposing Billy Graham. Without the proper view from God, a doctrine may be dead. God asked the prophets to do things that seemed unreasonable. For example, He asked the prophet Hosea to marry a prostitute (Hosea 1:2). Hosea could only follow this command, even though he would be criticized. Some believers are opposed to Billy Graham and his crusades because even people from heretical groups attend the crusades. Billy Graham, however, cares only that people hear the gospel. He does not care who hears the gospel. He would preach the gospel even if the devil attended a crusade.

This shows that Billy Graham has an enlarged heart. He stands with God and preaches the word to whoever attends. He does not try to please people. He has living faith and receives his burden from God. The Spirit affirms his labor with a strong result and supplies him. This does not mean, however, that we should imitate him. In principle, we should receive help from others, but we are accountable to God for our work."

The Perfecting of the Saints and Building up of the House of God, Witness Lee.

Billy Graham owned John 3:16 as his own, and took delight and diligence to share it with as many as he could. Thank God for such a faithful servant.

I do find it strange, but maybe not when I think about it, that Drake quotes WL concerning Billy Graham.

This is a recollection that I have of the time Billy Graham came to San Diego for a crusade, and I think he also had others in So. California. The speaking in the church in SD at that time was that BG was a nice preacher, but short of the revelation of the church, so that his ministry produced Christians but did not have a container for them, which should be the LC. I don't say this talk came straight from WL, but it was spoken, and we were, by proximity "in fellowship" with Anaheim, so my recollection was that that was proper view to hold of Mr. Graham's ministry- that it was old and out of date with God's up to date move on the earth. I went to the crusade-If I remember right, I skipped a meeting to go, and was awestruck at the amount of Christians who were there. It was held at the Jack Murphy stadium, where the Chargers played, and it was packed, so at least 45,000 attended. Message was simple, yet touched the hearts of thousands who came forward.

I didn't feel it was a good idea to talk to the other LC saints at the time about my attending; I'm sure those who have walked away from the LC can understand why, but in retrospect, I would say the church in SD was gathering at the stadium that night.

[Drake]

-1

Boxjobox,

Your point is understandable.....still ....

... he was an Evangelist and fulfilled that function powerfully. That was his commission from the Lord. God could use such a man because he had a big heart.

Drake

[Steel]

So I just had fellowship with a brother I often meet with for lunch during the week... Billy Graham came up and he asked me if I thought that Graham was a part of God's recovery... My answer was this... "If by "God's recovery" you are referring to the human effort which goes under the title of "...The Recovery...", then no, he wasn't a part of it. But if you mean the recovery that God has been carrying out since the first century, then yes, absolutely I believe Billy Graham was a part of it."

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

Boxjobox,

Your point is understandable.....still ....

... he was an Evangelist and fulfilled that function powerfully. That was his commission from the Lord. God could use such a man because he had a big heart.

Drake

Drake, you set this as a memorial to Billy Graham: thanks for that. And maybe best not to change the subject, but I'm curious- do you have theological concepts, thoughts, opinions apart from W Lee's ministry, or do you relate all things scriptural to WL.

No problem if you don't feel this is the place for such a question.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

This is a recollection that I have of the time Billy Graham came to San Diego for a crusade ... The speaking in the church ... at that time was that BG was a nice preacher, but short of the revelation of the church, so that his ministry produced Christians but did not have a container for them, which should be the LC.

This is also what I heard, but it was also taken to another level, i.e. that "Billy Graham gives birth to children, but does not raise them up, and shame on anyone who would do such a thing as that." Regardless of what WL said on the record about Billy Graham, we know how he really felt. It's really unfortunate that Drake quoted something from WL, because it's only fair that the whole story be told.

Originally Posted by Drake

Your point is understandable.....still .... ... he was an Evangelist and fulfilled that function powerfully. That was his commission from the Lord. God could use such a man because he had a big heart.

If we want to think that God could use Billy Graham because he "had a big heart," then we must also admit that many LC leaders could not be used because they did not "have a big heart."

Billy Graham was both a gift to mankind ("And He gave some evangelists ...") and a minister faithful and obedient to a vision, (To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith ... I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision."

For WL to say privately, off the record, that Billy Graham did not "see the vision of the church," is without dispute, since we know that these comments were prevalent throughout the Recovery. It was just his way of discrediting every minister besides himself.

We do know from history that Billy Graham was indeed faithful to the vision from the day he was called until his last day. He was the most fruitful evangelist in church history. He was never stained by immorality, and became a pattern for many others to serve God. He was a friend of politicians, yet stayed out of politics. By refusing to speak to segregated crowds, Billy Graham did far more for the oneness of the body of Christ than WL ever did.

[Koinonia]

I do think it was unnecessary to tie a tribute to Billy Graham back to Witness Lee. LC members feel free to mourn the loss of Billy Graham because Witness Lee had said some good things about him. However, Billy Graham may very well have been the last living Christian figure for which Witness Lee ever had a positive comment. That's rather sad.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is also what I heard, but it was also taken to another level, i.e. that "Billy Graham gives birth to children, but does not raise them up, and shame on anyone who would do such a thing as that." Regardless of what WL said on the record about Billy Graham, we know how he really felt. It's really unfortunate that Drake quoted something from WL, because it's only fair that the whole story be told.

Thanks Ohio for the confirmation- I too remember something about it kind of like being Lot's children. I couldn't recall if it was something said by an elder locally, or in a message, but it was tied to Billy Graham leading people to Christ but not taking care of them. I specifically recall that the crusade did hook people up with area assemblies, and it's amazing how many good Christians attribute their salvation to him. One would think if he was regarded as a evangelists, and came to San Diego, that the LC would encourage the saints to go support the crusade the evangelist, and assist those who came to believe.
Another sign of the "fruit" of WL's ministry.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

..However, Billy Graham may very well have been the last living Christian figure for which Witness Lee ever had a positive comment. That's rather sad.

Probably true. Now I wonder if Hank Hannegraaff would have been able to muster up enough hypocrisy to have kowtowed and sniveled enough before the One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age enough to get a complement out of Witness Lee.

Many of us may recall when the original Bible Answer Man, Dr. Walter Martin, came to Lee's home (there on Ball road near the hall) to discuss CRI's published material about the teachings and practices of the Local Church. Apparently the meeting was recorded, and Witness Lee agreed to give Martin a copy of the recording. Lee (of course) reneged on the agreement and refused to give a copy to Dr. Martin. He gave some kind of lame excuse...like Martin was rude to him or some other such nonsense. I suspect the real reason was that Lee didn't have any good answers for Dr. Martin's reasonable theological concerns about Lee's teachings, and Lee didn't want that kind of information getting out to LC members, or God forbid, the general public.
-

[Evangelical]

As he was so loved and respected by the world, country leaders, the media, the Pope, it makes one wonder.

Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

and also 2 Timothy 3:12, John 17:14.

Jesus clearly says that the world will hate his disciples, not love and respect them. I think that stands as true today as it did in the time of Christ.

I believe Graham was treated this way because his views tended towards Catholic universalism, much the same as Mother Teresa. Originally a hellfire and brimstone preacher his preaching somehow changed over the years. He did not really challenge people's pursuit of their own (false) religions as much as other preachers might. A number of times he is recorded as saying he does not really care about a person's religion if they are Buddhist or whatever.

Also his net worth of $25 million at his death which is about the same as Creflo Dollar...now his son gets paid millions to run charities. Also his involvement in politics indicates he was a religious nationalist?

Nonetheless I believe Graham was a genuine disciple but I know people who don't because of the aforementioned reasons.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Also his net worth of $25 million at his death which is about the same as Creflo Dollar. Also his involvement in politics indicates he was a religious nationalist

There he is! Thanks for sharing the heart of the LSM ministry, E.

I'm sure your distain for Graham and his ministry was shared by your guy, Witness Lee:

The Furtherance of the New Way for the Lord's Recovery

"The world-famous American evangelist, Billy Graham, began to serve the Lord in Los Angeles in 1949. He also saw that in many of his large gospel meetings more than ten thousand people would leave their names. After sending them to all the denominations, however, most of them became very cold and were never heard from again."

The Perfecting of the Saints and the Building up of the House of God
In speaking of Evangelicals - and specifically Graham, Lee says:

"do not stress the truth"

"do not emphasize the truth, the ground of the church, or the way of the church, nor do they discern these matters. They only make a united effort to preach the gospel. "

The lists could go on and on... If Witness Lee didn't say it - must be wrong.

[Evangelical]

There is nothing wrong with what Lee said, it is a factual observation. In the bible the disciples added the new converts to the church. The goal is to make disciples, not converts.

We see that Lee had great respect for Graham as do I, however this is not to say that his methods or teaching is absolutely correct.

Also the hypocrites, the worldly media and world leaders will pay respect for anyone who tickles their ear.

Lee's positive statements about him are from some time ago. In recent years I think Lee's view "He does not try to please people." to not be absolutely correct. I would say he tried to please people by not offending them and in doing so may have provided false comfort to Presidents, the Queen, the Pope, Roman Catholics etc.

[Koinonia]

Evangelical, the fruit of Billy Graham's ministry is millions of new believers around the world to the joy and glory of God. The fruit of Witness Lee's ministry is a few thousand churches with standing orders for books from his own company and a "one publication" policy that precludes every other source of spiritual help. Lee raised up a following after himself. Graham fulfilled his commission and left the rest to the Lord and to other believers. Lee was full of criticism. Graham practiced not to criticize others.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Evangelical, the fruit of Billy Graham's ministry is millions of new believers around the world to the joy and glory of God. The fruit of Witness Lee's ministry is a few thousand churches with standing orders for books from his own company and a "one publication" policy that precludes every other source of spiritual help. Lee raised up a following after himself. Graham fulfilled his commission and left the rest to the Lord and to other believers. Lee was full of criticism. Graham practiced not to criticize others.

Didn't the Apostle Paul warn us of people like him? (Acts 20.30)

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Evangelical, the fruit of Billy Graham's ministry is millions of new believers around the world to the joy and glory of God. The fruit of Witness Lee's ministry is a few thousand churches with standing orders for books from his own company and a "one publication" policy that precludes every other source of spiritual help. Lee raised up a following after himself. Graham fulfilled his commission and left the rest to the Lord and to other believers. Lee was full of criticism. Graham practiced not to criticize others.

Reproof and correction is necessary.

"Biblical criticism is helpful, loving, and based on truth. "

https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-criticism.html

In all his meetings with the Pope did Graham ever correct him, or any other world leader? That would have been the loving and Christ-like thing to do.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Reproof and correction is necessary.

Did Lee ever correct his son during a decade of gross immorality and sexual abuse as manager of his "levitical service" publishing house?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Did Lee ever correct his son during a decade of gross immorality and sexual abuse as manager of his "levitical service" publishing house?

I don't know and I don't see the relevance.

[awareness]

Neither Graham nor Lee were angels. But I think out of respect to the family we should hold off being critical of their flaws to give family a time to grieve.

Just saying. And I can be critical of them both. Just not now, of Billy.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I don't know and I don't see the relevance.

Which was worse--talking to the Pope, or harboring a sexual deviant and forcing his authority on the Lord's people?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Which was worse--talking to the Pope, or harboring a sexual deviant and forcing his authority on the Lord's people?

Talking to the Pope and not correcting him about the deviancy in the Catholic church could be considered worse in both scale and magnitude because the Pope was in charge of one of the largest abusive institutions that ever existed. Or maybe you forgot that.

Rather ironic that you would bring up the topic of criticism given that this forum is full of criticism of Lee, the local churches ,LSM, Hank H, and others.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Neither Graham nor Lee were angels. But I think out of respect to the family we should hold off being critical of their flaws to give family a time to grieve.

Just saying. And I can be critical of them both. Just not now, of Billy.

Your post about Barb Bush and Billy on the phone was the one that reminded me of Graham's flaws in his ministry and his universalism and prompted me to post about it. Graham appeared hesitant to say that those who don't believe in Christ go to hell. You provided one of the clearest examples to support what I'm talking about...so thank you.

It is also indicating that contrary to W. Lee's view (as quoted by Drake), Graham tended towards man-pleasing, particularly in his later life. It is for this reason he was held in high esteem by the world's media, country leaders, etc.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Talking to the Pope and not correcting him about the deviancy in the Catholic church could be considered worse in both scale and magnitude because the Pope was in charge of one of the largest abusive institutions that ever existed. Or maybe you forgot that.

Rather ironic that you would bring up the topic of criticism given that this forum is full of criticism of Lee, the local churches ,LSM, Hank H, and others.

Unlike in the LC, on this forum, we are free to take an honest assessment of Lee, LSM, and the churches. The reason you, Drake, and Steel often seem so taken aback by it is that in the LC you are never exposed to any assessment of Lee that is short of hagiography.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Unlike in the LC, on this forum, we are free to take an honest assessment of Lee, LSM, and the churches. The reason you, Drake, and Steel often seem so taken aback by it is that in the LC you are never exposed to any assessment of Lee that is short of hagiography.

Then I also, undertook an honest assessment of Graham's ministry. Nothing more.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Then I also, undertook an honest assessment of Graham's ministry.

Which you are free to do. But as long as you are comparing Graham to Lee, we will remind you of who Lee was--a judgmental, self-important bully who expected veneration of himself and of his ministry, while enforcing his assumed authority, dividing Christians one from another, and allowing immoral and unethical behavior in the midst of the ministry he claimed as his own.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Which you are free to do. But as long as you are comparing Graham to Lee, we will remind you of who Lee was--a judgmental, self-important bully who expected veneration of himself and of his ministry, while enforcing his assumed authority, dividing Christians one from another, and allowing immoral and unethical behavior in the midst of the ministry he claimed as his own.

You should read about Graham's children and grandchildren.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You should read about Graham's children and grandchildren.

What about them? Are they as bad as Philip and Timothy Lee?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You should read about Graham's children and grandchildren.

Hey E,

Go find the billygrahamministrydiscussions.com forum and chat with others that have been insulted and assaulted by Graham's work. I'm sure there is a section in that forum that talks about his illegal financial transactions (maybe they even have a taped phone convo), the section for false teaching, his failed attempt to start a his own sect, and don't forget the section that talks about Graham's corrupt children that ran the business office.

I, for one, have no interest in learning anything about Graham's kids.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Hey E,

Go find the billygrahamministrydiscussions.com forum and chat with others that have been insulted and assaulted by Graham's work. I'm sure there is a section in that forum that talks about his illegal financial transactions (maybe they even have a taped phone convo), the section for false teaching, his failed attempt to start a his own sect, and don't forget the section that talks about Graham's corrupt children that ran the business office.

I, for one, have no interest in learning anything about Graham's kids.

leastofthese,

Should you decide to learn something about BG's children and grandchildren, you would learn that they had their failures in life, as most people do. They did not hide their failures. Of course, if it's truly hidden, we wouldn't know about it, but there were public divorces among the children and grandchildren. There were spousal extramarital affairs and remarriages. The children were open and honest about these events, and their turn to God for help in time of need. They began to minister to others who were in the same situation they were in to assure them that there was "life after" and that the only answer was, as their grandfather taught, a personal relationship with Jesus.

One grandson (Tullian Tchividjian (pronounced TUHL-ee-uhn cha-VI-jin)) was particularly troubled with extramarital affairs and depression. He also found the Lord in the depths of his depression but still struggles today. Another grandson, Basyle "Boz" Tchividjian formed an association to assist evangelical groups in confronting sexual abuse, particularly child sexual abuse, within their organizations. Tchividjian is also a law professor at Liberty University, who formerly worked as a prosecutor on sexual abuse cases

I found no instance of Billy Graham trying to cover the sins and failures of his children or grandchildren. He didn't "shoot the messenger." He didn't punish those who may have disappointed him.

In fact, his message never changed. He truly understood that the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ did not belong to Billy Graham, but to God and his son Jesus. BG didn't spin the gospel into a ministry for his own personal empire.

He lived the life and continued to be a rock for his family. Living the Christian life often comes down to how you handle your own personal failures and sins. The Graham Family was no exception. They were just like us, striving to find Jesus and not live by our own human frailty without him. Their lives are not defined by their failures, but by the saving grace and forgiveness of Jesus. May we all live that life that Jesus died that we may live.

Nell

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Which you are free to do. But as long as you are comparing Graham to Lee, we will remind you of who Lee was--a judgmental, self-important bully who expected veneration of himself and of his ministry, while enforcing his assumed authority, dividing Christians one from another, and allowing immoral and unethical behavior in the midst of the ministry he claimed as his own.

Yeah...

But first and foremost in God's eyes... You know... The eye's that God sees reality through... The eye's that God wants us to see through... I believe He saw Witness Lee as a born again, blood washed, eternally saved believer in Christ Jesus... Which... You seemed to have left out of your natural human rationalized list of what Witness Lee was... Which is perfectly understandable, given your natural human intention for coming up with the list in the first place.

And actually... If he was born again of God... Well then... He still is.

Unlike all that other stuff you listed about him... Which he wouldn't now be... And would not have been for the last twenty years.

Praise the Lord, right... That he desires to, and does save, even those who we see through our natural human rationalizing as being even the worst of wretches.

God is good, isn't He.

[Steel]

This is something that I heard about Billy Graham that I thought was to be appreciated — if true, who knows... I read somewhere that when Graham realized that his ministry was growing big he handed over all matters concerning the financial aspect of his ministry to a management board.

Now Graham was of course the cash cow, and so would have had the attention of the board and could/did influence it... But the thought is what I appreciated.

Money... The love of it... Is a terrible thing... I've been through years of struggling with my human being, being tied to money... My bank account goes up, my human being goes up... My bank account goes down, my human being goes down... And the worst part about it... I knew this was my reality, and could do nothing about it in and of myself... And God used it to defeat me time and time again.

But today, things are a bit different... I'm not so attached to money as I once was... And not because I have become better in some sort of way... The Lord has simply gained me in my turning to Him rather than in turning to myself.

I'm still as weak as I ever was where my joy or lack of joy as related to my bank account is concerned... But I know that I don't want to be in this kind of bondage, and I know that the only way to be free from it is to be found in Christ Jesus.

And so, when I have a sense of any kind of connection between my being and money... I try desperately to turn to the Lord.

And perhaps that's what Billy Graham was trying to do when he first handed over his ministry's finances to a board... He felt a desperate need to not be drawn into the darkness that is related to money... And maybe even though he had this grace from God to do this, he still failed at it... As we all do.

And if we are all honest... We'd all admit that the only thing standing between any of us holding to any of the negatives folks highlight on these threads about Billy Graham, Witness Lee, or anyone else... Is God's grace.

Were it not for the grace of God... Everyone participating on these forum threads would only be sorry fallen wretches.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Steel

Yeah...

But first and foremost in God's eyes... You know... The eye's that God sees reality through... The eye's that God wants us to see through... I believe He saw Witness Lee as a born again, blood washed, eternally saved believer in Christ Jesus... Which... You seemed to have left out of your natural human rationalized list of what Witness Lee was... Which is perfectly understandable, given your natural human intention for coming up with the list in the first place.

And actually... If he was born again of God... Well then... He still is.

Unlike all that other stuff you listed about him... Which he wouldn't now be... And would not have been for the last twenty years.

Praise the Lord, right... That he desires to, and does save, even those who we see through our natural human rationalizing as being even the worst of wretches.

Good is good, isn't He.

I am not disputing that Lee was born again. So, Lee was a regenerated "judgmental, self-important bully who expected veneration of himself and of his ministry, while enforcing his assumed authority, dividing Christians one from another, and allowing immoral and unethical behavior in the midst of the ministry he claimed as his own."

That means--he was born again and fleshly, and he stumbled many believers. The Lord Jesus said:

"Offenses will certainly come, but woe to the one they come through! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to stumble." (Luke 17:1-2)

And if Witness Lee had applied the same "see no evil" mentality that you apply to all things LC-related, there would have been no Local Church movement to begin with.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I am not disputing that Lee was born again.

Praise the Lord... Now... Did you say that after taking the way of the cross? . . . Because even our good thoughts can come out of our fallen natural man... Or so scripture says.

Originally Posted by Koinonia

So, Lee was a regenerated "judgmental, self-important bully who expected veneration of himself and of his ministry, while enforcing his assumed authority, dividing Christians one from another, and allowing immoral and unethical behavior in the midst of the ministry he claimed as his own."

Three fingers... Right back at ya... Now what do you do.

Originally Posted by Koinonia

That means--he was born again and fleshly, and he stumbled many believers.

Ain't that the truth... Of us all... Even the stumbling many believers part... But I'm glad you brought this up...

Originally Posted by Koinonia

The Lord Jesus said:

"Offenses will certainly come, but woe to the one they come through! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to stumble." (Luke 17:1-2)

Yes... Praise the Lord... He certainly did.

But notice He never asked for any help in judging where offences come from, or help judging who was the source of these offences, or even help in placing the millstone around anyone's neck and throwing them into the sea.

Because... As scripture tells us... That's the business of the One who will be/is on the judgement throne, doing the judging.

And what scripture tells us we need to be busy with, is only beholding and reflecting Him... Which is something we all, in one way or another, and to one degree or another, have a problem with/fail at.

Originally Posted by Koinonia

And if Witness Lee had applied the same "see no evil" mentality that you apply to all things LC-related, there would have been no Local Church movement to begin with.

Now see that... You're just not being... Ahhh... What can I say that won't get me in "moderation" jail again... You're just being... Ahhh... Not so correct in your suggesting of what I said...

Because... I most certainly didn't say or suggest anything cloes to "see no evil" ... And that being the case... As is clearly evident in all of my speaking... What then do your own incorrect words say about you, Koinonia?

Look... We can't "see no evil"... Not if we're in Christ Jesus... Because when we are in Christ Jesus, we are not only in the light of God, but are even the light of God, and expressing the light of God... And therefore... We would certainly be able to discern what isn't the light of God... And do so spontaneously... Just like when you're dry, and then you get wet, and you immediately know.

So, no, Koinonia... It's not a matter of "see no evil"... It is a matter of upon seeing evil, what are we to do... And on that... Scripture is very clear.

Always... Always... Turn to scripture.

It's what I have been doing for twenty + years... And it's what I believe the Lord brought/gave me to do twenty + years ago.

I absolutely hold to scripture, Koinonia... In and through the Lord... I'm not perfect... But in Him, I am well able.

[Nell]

In all that's been written and spoken about Billy Graham this week, I particularly enjoyed these two things. As a young man, before he met the Lord, Billy Graham wanted to be a baseball player. He would have likely been a good one!

In 1971 a Billy Graham crusade opened the new home of the Dallas Cowboys, Texas Stadium in Irving. Here are some of his comments from the Dallas Morning News in 1971:

"What a beautiful stadium this is!"

"... Someday I'm going to get courage enough to ask him why he left that hole up there, and I think I know. Somebody told me that Clint Murchison said that football is supposed to be an outdoor game and so he left that hole up there. ..."

"This is Texas stadium, the brand-new home of the Dallas Cowboys. And we are the first event ever in this stadium. It is the most unusual stadium that we've ever been in, because it almost looks as if it is closed, but it is an open-air stadium."

I guess someone eventually told him that the lore was, the reason there was a hole in the roof of Texas Stadium was so God could watch his team play football.

Nell

[HERn]

Walked into my house a junior in high school after some partying (1970) and my parents were watching a Billy Graham crusade on TV. The Holy Spirit captured my attention for a few moments that I think played a role in my coming to Christ. I also heard him speak at Explo 72. Somehow by God's grace he was preserved from the things that stumbled many famous preachers. I just read where he never was in the company alone with women, that he took a salary from his board, his finances and organization was totally open, and that he used turnstile numbers to estimate attendance. Don't know if he ever referred to himself as a god-man, but I think he was.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Steel

Praise the Lord... Now... Did you say that after taking the way of the cross? . . . Because even our good thoughts can come out of our fallen natural man... Or so scripture says.

Steel, if you do not want to discuss anything, then what is the purpose of your being here?

[Nell]

What does this have to do with Billy Graham?

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

What does this have to do with Billy Graham? Nell

Some of Billy Graham's quotes are classics:

“I have never known anyone to accept Christ’s redemption and later regret it.”

“Sin is the second most powerful force in the universe, for it sent Jesus to the cross. Only one force is greater—the love of God.”

"Mountaintops are for views and inspiration, but fruit is grown in the valleys."

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Steel, if you do not want to discuss anything, then what is the purpose of your being here?

Fellowship... I've been reading and learning and sharing among folks I believe to be members of the body.

According to scripture, this is an aspect of the building of the body of Christ, which is my focus.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Unlike in the LC, on this forum, we are free to take an honest assessment of Lee, LSM, and the churches.

Well... Not really.

Because if you are in Christ, you are His slave... And slaves aren't free to make their own assessment. . . . And if you're not in Christ while making an assessment, you are, according to scripture, also not free... Being in bondage to the law of sin and death.

Sad how we seem to forget these things as we pursue our speaking on matters that offend us.

Originally Posted by Koinonia

The reason you, Drake, and Steel often seem so taken aback by it is that in the LC you are never exposed to any assessment of Lee that is short of hagiography.

I won't think to speak for anyone else... But speaking for myself... I am in no way, shape, or form "...taken aback..." by anyone's speaking here on this forum. . . . Why would I been... Scripture is clear regarding the two sources it can come from.

Either the speaking is ina nd out of Christ Jesus... For which reason I'd rejoice. . . . Or the speaking is in and out of death... Which scripture tells us has already been defeated by Christ Jesus.

And knowingthe above... What is there to be taken aback by?

I can only think that anyone who is taken aback is one who does not truly believe the reality scripture reveals.

No... The above made clear... Perhaps you and others here could try and stop lumping myself and certain others together... In what seems to be a foolish/dishonest attempt to tar us all with one brush. . . . Or don't... And I will simply keep pointing out your error in doing this.

Now... Allow me to make somethng else clear...

On "...hagiography..."...

Witness Lee is dead... And has been for twenty+ years. . . . I did not the man when he was alive... And I have no feeling towards the man in his death... Apart from appreciating what I read in His ministry... And the fact that in one way or another, the Lord used him to produce it.

And I can say the same thing about Paul, and every other person — other than Christ Jesus. . . . I never knew them personally, and have no feeling towards them in a personal way, beyond appreciationg for their ministry and what the Lord accomplished in and through them.

I have absolutely no interest in seeing people in their humanity... None... Zero... Zilch... I want to see Christ, and Christ only.

And this is not some high spiritual claim... Some super-Christian wannabe pursuit.... I simply want the Lord to return and this age be over and done with... And have come to see that in order for this to take place the Lord needs those who only see Him.

It is what I believe scripture reveals to us... And it is what I have come to realize is necessary for this age to end.

And further... I believe that having seen this... If I am one who doesn't hold to it I will simply be guilty of being luke warm towards the things that the Lord has shown me... And I don't want to be luke warm toward Him in anything.

Now this is not to say I am perfect... I'm certainly not... By a long shot... But I've seen what I have see... And know what I know... And am now, day by day, trying to enter into what I have seen and know... While at the same time having little or no clue as to how to go about it.

The more I see and know of Christ Jesus... The less I seem to see and know regarding how to move forward in Him... Other than to desperately cling to Him... Which requires having eyes only for Him.

[Ohio]

More Graham quotes:

“World events are moving very rapidly now. I pick up the Bible in one hand, and I pick up the newspaper in the other. And I read almost the same words in the newspaper as I read in the Bible. It’s being fulfilled every day round about us.”

“The cross tells us that God understands our sin and our suffering, for he took them upon himself in the Person of Jesus Christ. From the cross God declares, 'I love you. I know the heartaches and the sorrows and the pain that you feel. But I love you."

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Nell

What does this have to do with Billy Graham?

Should I just close the thread?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Should I just close the thread?

Probably a good idea.

Nell

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Some of Billy Graham's quotes are classics:

“I have never known anyone to accept Christ’s redemption and later regret it.”

“Sin is the second most powerful force in the universe, for it sent Jesus to the cross. Only one force is greater—the love of God.”

"Mountaintops are for views and inspiration, but fruit is grown in the valleys."

Well he's wrong on the first point because I have known people who have regretted accepting Christ..either through love for the world or their life becoming worse. Graham has millions of salvations through his ministry and never encountered anyone regretting becoming a Christian? Interesting. I wonder if that is because he never talked to or followed up anyone who came to his crusades. He's not alone. Benny Hinn and others come in their police escorted platoon, do their thing on the stage and then go back the same way they came, never actually talking to anyone or following up.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Well he's wrong on the first point because I have known people who have regretted accepting Christ..either through love for the world or their life becoming worse. Graham has millions of salvations through his ministry and never encountered anyone regretting becoming a Christian? Interesting. I wonder if that is because he never talked to or followed up anyone who came to his crusades. He's not alone. Benny Hinn and others come in their police escorted platoon, do their thing on the stage and then go back the same way they came, never actually talking to anyone or following up.

Evangelical, LC lurkers are wishing you would be quiet right now.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Well he's wrong on the first point because I have known people who have regretted accepting Christ..either through love for the world or their life becoming worse. Graham has millions of salvations through his ministry and never encountered anyone regretting becoming a Christian? Interesting. I wonder if that is because he never talked to or followed up anyone who came to his crusades. He's not alone. Benny Hinn and others come in their police escorted platoon, do their thing on the stage and then go back the same way they came, never actually talking to anyone or following up.

I read where at the beginning it was a concern for Billy regarding follow-up, which is why he contacted Dawson Trotman of the Navigators to help. Billy also partnered with the body of Christ with several churches providing care for the new believers. I don't think it's fair to place Billy in the same group as Benny.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Evangelical, LC lurkers are wishing you would be quiet right now.

It might encourage some to post. Don't worry.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It might encourage some to post. Don't worry.

Unlikely, as LC members are actively discouraged from visiting sites like this one.